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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Bloody Day in Iraq; Kerry Outlines Health Care Plan; Interview With Kitty Kelley

Aired September 14, 2004 - 22:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, my goodness.
There always seems to be a reason for new violence in Iraq. It was once that the former Ba'athists were trying to disrupt the Iraqi interim government. Then it became foreign fighters joining the old Ba'athists.

And then it became Shias unhappy that the Sunnis were getting power. And then it became all of these assorted bad guys trying to prevent the handover. And now it's this group or that, all of them, honestly it's hard to tell, trying to prevent elections and then, I suspect, it will be something else and it will be something else after that.

And all of it may be true, which is not the point. The point is that to date with all the resources available the coalition hasn't been able to stop it or slow it and, in fact, by all accounts the violence is getting worse.

All of us need to look long and hard at what is going on in Iraq on the ground these days and ask if the way this is being conducted makes sense and, if it isn't, what can be done and how quickly it can be done to stop the dying and make it better.

The whip begins on the ground in Baghdad, a very rough day again, CNN's Walter Rodgers, again, with a headline -- Walt.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a car bomb in Baghdad ten o'clock this morning, 47 people killed, more than 100 wounded and in Baquba, 12 police officers were killed in a drive-by shooting -- Aaron.

BROWN: Walt, thank you. We'll get back to you at the top.

Las Vegas next, the president on the campaign before a roomful of National Guardsmen. CNN's Senior White House Correspondent John King with the president, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president steered clear of the controversy about his National Guard service 30 years ago in that speech today but the first lady did not. She suggested publicly today those documents raising questions might be forgeries -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

In the Midwest, Senator John Kerry said he was focused like a laser on health care today. Candy Crowley traveling with the senator in Detroit tonight, Candy a headline.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, neither Kitty Kelley nor George Bush's National Guard history is going to keep John Kerry off his message, which today was health care for seniors -- Aaron.

BROWN: Candy, thank you, more from you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, millions are urged to leave the Big Easy as Hurricane Ivan bears down on the Gulf Coast.

Also, the White House calls it garbage but Kitty Kelley calls it her unflattering portrait of the Bush family and calls it the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KITTY KELLEY: I'm not surprised by what's happening but I think what they do play a very good game of offense, harm the messenger so you confuse and diffuse the message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Ms. Kelley's book hit the bookshelves today and tonight a candid discussion with Kitty Kelley, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin again in Iraq at the end of another bloody day. There have been a series of them of late. Two major attacks today, dozens of Iraqis dead.

In Baghdad, residents have nicknamed a street near one of the attacks Little Fallujah. It is that dangerous. The street is in the city's central business district, which says something about security in the capital of Iraq these days.

Given the unrelenting violence of the last several days throughout the country, it seems fair to ask tonight have the insurgents turned the corner? Are they now winning the war or is everyone in Iraq simply losing?

We begin tonight with CNN's Walter Rodgers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS (voice-over): Ambulance silence screamed as if in rage at the sight of a Baghdad car bombing. Here the death toll grew all day approaching 50. More than 100 were wounded, the apparent target a police station, young Iraqi men bringing their photos to apply for a job on the force.

These Baghdad bombs are indiscriminate. Witness the sandals of the dead. Many shop owners spent this day cleaning human flesh from their storefronts. The explosion shredded lives and bodies of a people already made miserable by war. The U.S. Apache helicopter was the only explanation many Iraqis needed.

"This is an American rocket," he says holding a piece of pipe.

Just before the explosion, this man assured us, "I spotted the Apache helicopter. It was a missile not a car bomb."

An Arab Islamist Web site claimed responsibility but even if there were concrete supporting evidence of that, the trend in Iraq is to transfer anger and responsibility.

"It was the Americans and the work of the Jews" he said.

In hospital, however, an injured man who survived the blast said he couldn't tell if it was a missile or a car bomb. These young men had dreams of building a new Iraq as policemen. Few other jobs are available. Still, even the most charitable Iraqis still believe the Americans had an obligation to protect them and failed. The American response...

MAJOR GEN. PETE CHIARELLI, U.S. ARMY: We can't protect all of Baghdad. We're working very, very hard to do that.

BROWN: So, there is much breast beating in hospitals these days, as areas beyond U.S. protection are increasingly targeted. In Baquba, another 12 policemen were murdered in a drive-by shooting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS: And, if there is now any doubt that the insurgents in Iraq have regained the initiative, they also sabotaged a major oil pipeline near Tikrit knocking out temporarily, at least, energy supplies, disrupting them for much of this country -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just tell me how all this gets reported in Iraq, in the Iraqi press. Is the Iraqi press blaming the Americans?

RODGERS: It would be dangerous not to blame the Americans here because there is this huge tidal current running against the United States, running against the military occupation, running against President George Bush.

At that car bombing today in Baghdad, people were walking through the streets shouting "Bush is a dog. Bush is a pimp." They also attacked the Prime Minister Ayad Allawi saying he was a pimp of the Americans. You don't stand against that sort of public sentiment here.

The feeling in Iraq is that the Americans had an obligation, legal under international law, to protect the Iraqi people. There is no security and the Iraqi people feel the Americans have dropped the ball on the security issue -- Aaron.

BROWN: Do you ever get the feeling they're playing to the camera? RODGERS: Sure but even in private conversations when I would ask people, "How do you really feel?" They said, "The Americans had an obligation to protect us and they failed" -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK. Walter, thank you, Walter Rodgers in a pretty dangerous place these days Baghdad.

On to the campaign now, Iraq figured obliquely at least into the equation by way of the National Guard. Speaking to the National Guard Association in Las Vegas, President Bush skirted the controversy over his service during Vietnam, even as he underscored his connection to his audience; our Senior White House Correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States.

KING (voice-over): A rousing welcome for the commander-in-chief and a brief mention of his National Guard service as a piece of political history, not as a campaign controversy.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nineteen individuals have served both in the Guard and as president of the United States and I'm proud to be one of them.

KING: The president praised the Guard role in Iraq and Afghanistan, promised more help for strained military families and said rival John Kerry exhibited weakness by shifting positions on Iraq because of pressure during the Democratic primaries.

BUSH: What's critical is that the president of the United States speak clearly and consistently at this time of great threat in our world and not change positions because of expediency or pressure.

KING: Not a word about new allegations he skirted the rules and received special treatment back when he was Lieutenant Bush in the Texas Air National Guard 30 years ago.

But First Lady Laura Bush in a Radio Iowa interview questioned the authenticity of memos CBS News says are from Mr. Bush's commanding officer. The memos mention pressure to sugarcoat evaluations and speculate Mr. Bush was using political connections to help arrange a transfer.

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, they probably are altered and they probably are forgeries and I think that's terrible really.

KING: The brother of a Guardsman killed in Iraq was among those on hand in Las Vegas to criticize the president.

DANTE ZAPPALA, BROTHER KILLED IN IRAQ: He has not supported our troops but he has used their service and sacrifice to satisfy a very reckless agenda. KING: But his reception was overwhelmingly positive and most on hand said performance in office matters more to them than his Guard record 30 years ago.

CAPT. JIM FLOWERS, MICHIGAN NATL. GUARD: I think President Bush has got us on the right path to combat terrorism and he made the right decision and that's coming from a commanding officer that spent 12 months in combat in Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Now the president recently reviewed those contested documents and aides say he had never seen them before and he says they do not reflect the tenor of his relationship with his commanding officer back then.

And these aides also say that the first lady was expressing a personal opinion when she speculated the documents were forgeries, not some new official position of the White House -- Aaron.

BROWN: And does the White House have an official position on the documents?

KING: The White House has said that media organizations are investigating as to whether they are authentic or not and they applaud that work.

BROWN: John, thank you, John King in Las Vegas tonight.

Senator John Kerry, meantime, spent the day campaigning in Ohio and Wisconsin. There is a sense that the map is shrinking some for the Senator, so both states are crucial and the Kerry camp has decided that for now at least its message is domestic policy and it is staying on message.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): National Guard story, the Kitty Kelley book, what story, what book?

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And the reason they're hiding the truth from the American people is because the out- of-pocket expenses of Medicare have now gone up to 37.2 percent by 2006.

CROWLEY: Wooing seniors in Milwaukee and Toledo, John Kerry was a man on message.

KERRY: I'm focused like a laser beam folks.

CROWLEY: Tuesday, it was Medicare and prescription drugs, a change in subject from Monday's focus on the assault weapons ban but the same target, the character of George W. Bush. KERRY: It's not just that the administration is making the wrong choice by feeding the insurance companies and the drug companies and depriving you of more available lower cost drugs. It's that they're being dishonest with you about it.

CROWLEY: Even when he strayed from the topic du jour and offered a critique of the president's National Guard speech, Kerry stayed in the lines accusing the president of glossing over the truth of Iraq.

KERRY: You know and I know, Americans know and the world knows because all you have to do is see it on the evening news or read the newspapers that the situation in Iraq is worse not better.

CROWLEY: But on the matter of the president's National Guard service that has been outsourced. The Kerry campaign gave the Democratic National Committee carte blanche to open up on George Bush on any subject too flammable for the candidate to touch.

TERRY MCAULIFFE, CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: His lack of commitment 30 years ago is an insult to those who fulfilled their National Guard duty. His lies only make the matter worse.

CROWLEY: The DNC has cobbled together a two-minute film titled "Fortunate Son," its version of George Bush's National Guard career. The RNC called the film as creative and accurate as the memos Democrats gave CBS, just a game of hardball the candidate would rather not play.

KERRY: I really want to sort of lower my voice. I want Independents and undecided voters and Republicans to think about this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: The Kerry campaign is so committed to keeping their candidate free of any extraneous issues that we are now in the seventh week of no full press conferences for John Kerry. He has promised one very soon but an aide explained later that means as soon as he wants to make news -- Aaron.

BROWN: Candy, thank you, Candy Crowley in Detroit tonight.

One other item here before we head to break. Call the airport first if you're headed to L.A. or San Diego. There's a ground stop in effect, which means that planes aren't being allowed to take off to head west to L.A. and San Diego.

Planes in the air are being allowed to land and they are landing safely. The FAA said radio communications were lost with high altitude planes over Southern Cal earlier today. About 800 planes affected when the system collapsed. The FAA has other ways of communicating with planes and says no one is at risk.

Still ahead on the program tonight, in the eyes of the storm, residents in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana brace for Hurricane Ivan. And then there's Hurricane Kitty Kelley, who joins us to talk about her book, including domestic violence and the young George W. Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLEY: There was an entire year where Barbara and George Bush did not speak to their eldest son because of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Truth or fiction? Our interview with the celebrity biographer still ahead.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On a grim day in Iraq after several days in a row that have been quite grim and no end in sight, we talked this afternoon with Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator, we're obviously in the middle. We've had three or four very bad days in Iraq, a lot of casualties, Iraqi casualties, American casualties. How ought we think of this?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I think we ought to think of it as a great struggle that we can't afford to lose that the people who are doing the killing have an agenda. Their agenda is to make sure democratic forces fail in Iraq.

The people who are dying are the ones who are signing up to be policemen and be in the army and to hold elected office. They're trying to change their country. The battle lines have drawn and we need to stick with those who are trying to change Iraq for the better because it really does make us more secure.

It's going to be a very difficult struggle for those folks in Iraq to make it through this to January because between now and January they're going to come after every Democratic force very hard and we just need to hunker down and hang in there with them.

BROWN: I want to talk to you a bit about a conversation I had with your colleague and I think your friend Joe Biden last week.

GRAHAM: Yes.

BROWN: I know you traveled with him over there and you had these experiences and he came away feeling that in many respects there is no good plan. The American -- the administration really doesn't have a reasonable plan to solve the problems that need to be solved.

GRAHAM: Well, we've made a lot of mistakes since the fall of Baghdad. We underestimated the level of the insurgency. We have not given the capacity to the Iraqi people to maintain their own freedom and the plan I think has been short in many areas. Abu Ghraib is a good example of not having the right skill mix on the ground, not planning for an overwhelming event in that prison.

So, I agree with Senator Biden that we made mistakes. I'm hopeful, however, that we will make adjustments and that we've got the right people on the ground and that we will accelerate training of the police. We'll accelerate training of the army.

The only way we'll ever get out of Iraq with our honor and to be more secure is for the Iraqis who are left behind to have the capacity to run their country with Democratic principles.

BROWN: It's not a terrible stretch anymore for one to look at the situation and say it is at least ripe for civil war.

GRAHAM: Well, I think we've done a very poor job of controlling Sadr. Once you tell someone that you're going to pay a price and they don't pay that price, then you send the wrong signal. Once you say you're going to take Fallujah, you better take Fallujah.

What we've done is we've allowed pockets of resistance to grow. We've been less than decisive. We've made deals with warlords and people who are not really part of the democratic process and we paid a price.

And the way we need to adjust it in my opinion is stand behind Prime Minister Allawi, make sure that the January elections are fairly held and that we isolate people like Sadr and we don't allow the Shia population to be used in a way to create civil war.

BROWN: Just, sir, a final question. Do you believe in your heart, I mean we're in mid-September now that between now and January the Sunni Triangle can be taken back or at least those areas that we don't control now and that the conditions on the ground can exist for a reasonable campaign and a fair election in a very short period of time?

GRAHAM: I believe that if the election is perceived to be fair by the Iraqi people, it makes it more difficult for the people creating chaos to survive. The key to solving this problem is have the Iraqi people to tell us who these folks are, where they're operating and what tactics they're using. And we're finding more good information every day.

The Iraqi people are getting tired of the terror and they're beginning to be more cooperative. If we have an election in January that's a flop, if it's perceived by the Iraqi people to have been an illegitimate election, then I think we've had a huge step backwards.

And between now and our November election and between now and January there will be hell to pay in Iraq because the stakes are very high but, if we can make it through January, Aaron, then I think we've turned the corner.

BROWN: Senator, thanks for your time. You are a welcome guest here anytime you choose. Come join us.

GRAHAM: Thank you. Thank you, sir.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. We talked to him earlier today.

Coming up next, Kitty Kelley's latest book on the president and his family, a tough book it is. We work a little bit on separating fact from fiction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLEY: I think as an American you'll feel just a little bit conned by the public image. No, I think it's a -- I think it's a realistic portrait. I stand behind everything in the book.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, saying that a Kitty Kelley book is an unauthorized biography is like saying what bank robber Willie Sutton did was make unauthorized withdrawals.

A combination of investigative reporting and some would say unverified gossip, her books are condemned by their subjects and widely, widely, widely read.

Now, as she's come out with "The Family," a tell-all tale about the Bush's, presidents 41 and 43 and the rest of the Bush clan, as usual there are accusations that what she has written is unproven and slanderous and, as usual, it's expected the books will fly off the shelves.

We talked with Ms. Kelley this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I want to talk about some of the specific things in the book, obviously, and some of the things that have made news and we'll walk through those. But first, just tell me what has this period been like?

The book has been attacked and the White House has weighed in. Others have weighed in. None of this could be terribly surprising to you. You've been through this before to one degree or another. What's it been like?

KELLEY: Well, the White House has issued two releases. The Republican National Committee has issued to their conservative talk show hosts a list of talking points. The White House has called networks to keep me off the air.

Now, you're right, it's not a surprise but unfortunately the book is just being published today, so the White House hasn't seen it. They haven't read it, not that they'll embrace it when they do read it.

BROWN: I can almost assure you they won't.

KELLEY: I'll take your word for it.

BROWN: Because it is -- it is -- not that I've read every page of it to be honest. I'm about two-thirds of the way through. It is not an especially flattering portrait of either the president or the president's family and I don't think you'd disagree with that, would you?

KELLEY: No, I wouldn't disagree with it and I would even go further to say when you finish the book you're going to feel heartbroken I think. I think it's an unsettling portrait of the Bush family and I think as an American you'll feel just a little bit conned by the public image. No, I think it's -- I think it's a realistic portrait. I stand behind everything in the book but, no, it's not -- not happy.

BROWN: OK. One more question before we get to some of the specifics. As we sit here now are you persuaded now that every allegation in the book is truthful, not that the people who told you believed it or that -- I'm not questioning whether someone told you something. What I'm asking you is do you now believe that everything they told you is the truth?

KELLEY: And am I comfortable with every single source?

BROWN: Yes.

KELLEY: And the documentation?

BROWN: Yes.

KELLEY: Absolutely 100 percent.

BROWN: OK. Let's talk about it.

KELLEY: And that's even including Sharon Bush.

BROWN: All right. Let's start there. I suppose in some respects that's the one that has gotten the most attention.

KELLEY: It has.

BROWN: The question about the president using cocaine, not simply after he said he had given up alcohol and whatever else he might have given up, but while his father was president and at Camp David.

And you write: "Years later, George's sister-in-law Sharon Bush, alleged that W. had snorted cocaine with one of his brothers at Camp David during the time their father was president, not once, she said, but many times." As you know, she denies the conversation.

KELLEY: Well, she can't deny the conversation because it took place. It took place April 1, 2003. It took place in front of another person, Lou Colasuonno. It took place at a restaurant in New York City. I didn't go to Sharon Bush. She came to me.

I then confirmed my quotes the next day with Sharon Bush in front of my editor Peter Gethers and later I took her to the William Morris Agency to see my agent because she wanted to give speeches. So, on the two occasions where substantial information was exchanged, I have two independent witnesses.

BROWN: Now, just a couple things on this and this is part of, I think, before she retracted. This is part of the White House position, but it's not an unfair point to make -- this was a woman who was involved in a very difficult, I think she would certainly call it, very difficult divorce.

KELLEY: Contentious.

BROWN: And was left, in her view, high and dry by the family and broke.

KELLEY: Aaron, it still doesn't mean that what she said over that lunch is not true. And it wasn't just the current president's drug use that she talked about. She talked about her father-in-law, his infidelity. She talked her mother-in-law, Barbara Bush. She had spent 23 years in that family, and she knew an awful lot.

BROWN: Why do you think she has walked away from the quotes?

KELLEY: Oh, I think she's scared. This is a very, very powerful family. I had trouble getting a lot of people to go on the record. People are frightened, and with good reason. You don't just -- this is a sitting president. His father was a former president.

BROWN: But what are they going to do to you?

KELLEY: Well, look what they've done to her. They've brought pressure to bear. What they do -- I'm not surprised by what's happening, but I think what they do, play a very good game of offense, harm the messenger, so you confuse and defuse the message.

BROWN: I mean, would they harm her, do you think?

KELLEY: Beat her up?

BROWN: Yes. I mean, are we talking...

KELLEY: I'll tell you something. During her -- during her interview over lunch, she told Lou and me that her husband, Neil Bush, had left a message on her tape machine, saying, if you're not careful, you're going to find yourself in a dark alley. And you do find yourself when someone says that, it sounds so hyperbolic, so melodramatic, but people are frightened. There's no question, people are frightened. What are they going to do? It isn't just -- it isn't a physical harm that people are afraid of. It's more -- it could be social. It could be political. Jobs could be in danger. Why would the Bushes go to -- the Bush White House before they even see the book have reacted this way?

BROWN: Because we're at a couple months before a presidential election, and they know that this book is not any bed of roses. We all knew that before it came out. So I can -- I don't have any problem understanding why they're on the attack. That makes perfect sense.

Let's talk about some of the things they -- a couple others they object to. Actually, one that they object to and one I got a problem with, how's that?

KELLEY: Oh, boy.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: You want to take the last one first?

You write this on possible spousal abuse. You say, "Often George would" -- this is when he was drinking -- "would disappear at night and Laura would not know where he was. Friends recalled a drunken George being bitingly sarcastic and pugnacious. One friend even worried about spousal abuse, but there is no official police report to document the allegation."

Why is that there? You have no source that says it exists, that there was spousal abuse. There is no record there was spousal abuse. That is pure gossip, isn't it?

KELLEY: Well, I interviewed an awful lot of people. And they talked about how abusive George W. was.

Now, you have got to remember, this was during the time when he was really drinking heavily. At this time, George and Barbara Bush had cut off communication with him. There was an entire year where Barbara and George Bush did not speak to their eldest son because of this.

BROWN: But you have no source...

KELLEY: I do have sources, I promise you.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right. All right. Let me ask -- I'm not going to -- really, I don't want to argue.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: It's just, the best I can tell, you -- as best I can tell, you have no source that says there was spousal abuse.

KELLEY: No.

BROWN: You have a source that says, well, people worried about it, and there's no evidence there was.

KELLEY: That's right.

BROWN: Isn't that to some degree -- that's just printing gossip. That's unfair, isn't it?

KELLEY: No, I really don't think it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Fair or not, the rest of the interview with Kitty Kelley after the break.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Here's part two of our conversation with Kitty Kelley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As best I can tell, you have no source that says there was spousal abuse.

KELLEY: No.

BROWN: You have a source that says, well, people worried about it, and there's no evidence there was.

KELLEY: That's right.

BROWN: Isn't that to some degree -- that's just printing gossip. That's unfair, isn't it?

KELLEY: No, I really don't think it is. I think it gives you a window into his absolutely rampaging pugnaciousness during the time that he was drinking.

BROWN: Do you know much or anything about what led up to his stopping drinking?

KELLEY: Well...

BROWN: I mean, we all know the story in broad strokes. Do you know the story?

KELLEY: The story of being hung over on his 40th birthday and -- what I can't understand is why people are surprised that there would be a slip from sobriety, why there would be a slip from substance abuse. It's very hard for people to give up drugs. It's very hard for people to give up alcohol. So what is the big surprise? So he did slip.

BROWN: Two more things -- perhaps more, but two for sure.

On the National Guard stuff, which we've all spent, frankly, I think, too much time talking about, but, nevertheless, you tie this into the drug question. And it's been that -- I suppose, the subtext for a long time about why he didn't take his flight physical.

And you write: "That same month, the Air Force began executing random drug tests, which meant that any pilot or mechanic could be requested on the spot to submit to urinalysis, blood tests or examination of the nasal passages for cocaine use. On April 17, 1972, George W. Bush made his last recorded flight before disappearing from the official records until October 1972."

I know what you're suggesting there. What I'm curious about is what you know. What do you know about that period, beyond that he doesn't fly and he doesn't take the physical? Do you know he was using drugs then?

KELLEY: I only can go as far as what I have in the book. But it could be solved for us if we could see the flight inquiry board record. And that's the record that contains the medical information. Up to that point, he had a solid record in the National Guard, according to Robert Rogers.

BROWN: Here's, I think, the problem. And it's a difference, I think, and a difference in what -- I don't mean this pejoratively at all -- it's a difference in what you do and, in a sense, what I do. You are clearly suggesting something here. You agree with that?

KELLEY: I do agree with that, and I think that it bears examination.

BROWN: OK. And that may -- that may be well and good. Is that journalism? Are you doing journalism there, or is that gossip?

KELLEY: I think it's good reporting. You can only go as far as you can go. It deserves examination.

BROWN: But you're drawing a connection. You're saying there was this -- these random drug tests, A.

KELLEY: A.

BROWN: B, there were these...

KELLEY: He suddenly...

BROWN: Let me throw in one more.

KELLEY: Sorry.

BROWN: There was a kind of suspicion. And then, C, he disappeared. He doesn't take his physical. He stops flying.

KELLEY: Do you think that is really so illogical? I've just put them down.

BROWN: I'm not suggesting that the math there doesn't work.

KELLEY: Right.

BROWN: I'm suggesting that we don't know with the kind of certainty that as a journalist I would need to know before I could publish that. So what's the standard?

KELLEY: I put down what I know. I put down what I found out. I didn't go any further. You can draw the dots. You can connect the dots. But I think it is legitimate to put that down that way.

BROWN: OK.

One final area which I -- I'm -- this is a degree to how cynical, I suppose, I am. At the end of the day, here is the picture in broad strokes. This is a well-to-do and well-connected family. This is a family of privilege and, to a certain extent, a sense of entitlement. This is a family where their kids get in trouble and pay no consequences, where their kids get into terrific schools without really doing the work, white man's affirmative action.

This could be the story -- this happens to be, in your view, the story of the Bushes. But it could be the Kennedys or the Rockefellers or anybody else. What's new here? This is the story of American wealth, isn't it, entitlement, privilege, no consequences? Kennedy children went through this. How are the Bushes different...

KELLEY: Oh.

BROWN: ... in that way?

KELLEY: I don't think the Bushes have paid the prices that other families have paid.

But I wasn't doing the other families. I was doing the Bush family, because they're unique, in that they've put a father and a son in the White House within one decade. And I think that we have had this public image of the Bushes. And the disconnect between that and the private reality is really the news in the book, not the...

BROWN: But don't -- don't -- I mean, none of us does it to the degree that -- that presidential families do, but we all -- there's a difference in all of our public images and our private lives. None of us are precisely what they appear. No marriage is perfect. Everybody has ups and downs. In every family, there's one kid who's a goof-off.

KELLEY: You're right. Every family has its positives and its...

BROWN: So what is the big deal about this one?

KELLEY: Because...

BROWN: Why is this one a bigger deal? KELLEY: Because this is a big deal family. This is the most powerful family in the country today. If it's the most powerful family in America, it's the most powerful family in the world.

BROWN: It's good to meet you.

KELLEY: It's great meeting you. Thanks.

BROWN: Really, people -- look, the book has a huge first press run.

KELLEY: Yes.

BROWN: It's getting -- there's -- if controversy equals publicity equals sales, it's going to do terrifically well. And people will read it and judge it, which is what they in the end should do, I suppose, good, bad or otherwise.

It's nice to meet you.

KELLEY: Great to meet you.

BROWN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Kitty Kelley. We talked with her this afternoon.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, another hurricane is on its way. And along the Gulf Coast this time, residents are on their way as fast as they can, which isn't as always fast as they wish.

And we'll get a first look at tomorrow morning's papers as well, because, around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If it wasn't so serious, if it wasn't a disaster where dozens have already died and thousands more are in danger, the temptation would be to say, here we go again, more TV correspondents standing in the rain, more pictures of wind-whipped palm trees. But it is deadly, deadly serious. Hurricane Ivan has already devastated parts of the Caribbean. It's aiming its 140-mile-an-hour winds at the Gulf Coast tonight.

CNN's Susan Candiotti is in Biloxi.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With a state of emergency in effect, Mobile gallery owner Yolanda Avery (ph) is boxing up what she can, and moving everything else off the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm getting some of my larger pictures, some of my better artists, a lot of my limited edition pieces, and I'm trying to protect them, take them out of town.

CANDIOTTI: With Mobile Bay just around the corner, flooding is a sure bet if Ivan pounds ashore.

Boats line the Mobile River, coming up from the bay, from freighters and cargo ships, to sport fishing boats, all trying to move out of harm's way.

With Ivan inching closer and closer, there is little time to spare. A downtown office building sandbagging its ground floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So everything is pulled away from the windows. We have all the interior doors locked and shut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Landfall is expected early Thursday. The weather will start to go downhill beginning tomorrow... CANDIOTTI: Interstate 10 heading east and west, busy throughout the day. New Orleans, below sea level, also a potential target, a voluntary evacuation urging residents to move to higher ground.

MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: If we get a storm like Ivan to hit us directly, or to become -- come really close to us, then we could have a situation where we have 12 to 18 feet of water throughout the city.

CANDIOTTI: In Biloxi, Mississippi, a dozen Gulf Coast hotel casinos were ordered closed at noon, guests ushered out two hours later.

Just off the shore, Treasure Bay, a casino hit hard by George in 1998.

BERNIE BURKHOLDER, CEO, TREASURE BAY CASINO: We've been in waist deep water here in previous times.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): And how high up would that be where we're walking now?

BURKHOLDER: It would be at an elevation of about eight above sea level.

CANDIOTTI: Biyab Mabli (ph) escaped Saint Croix before Frances and now has Ivan nipping at his heels. He says he's starting to take it personally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very scary. I don't like it. It's not good.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): And disaster planners not at all pleased with those refusing to budge despite a mandatory evacuation order, arming deputies with forms going door to door, asking for next of kin.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Biloxi, Mississippi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. I always miss doing this on days I'm not here. Sometimes, I just want to come in at about 10:53 and do it.

"International Herald Tribune," really, published by "The New York Times" in Paris. "Scores Die in Iraq in Wave of Attacks." This is the lead today. "Car Bomb and Ambush Aimed at Police As Insurgents Step Up Their Campaign." Interesting sidebar, an analysis piece, "Americans Seem Not to Focus on the War." I don't know if that's true. I mean, I hope that is not true. I hope people are paying attention to it. It's their sons and daughters. It's our sons and daughters over there.

"The Christian Science Monitor."

I don't want to think people aren't paying attention to it.

"Christian Science Monitor." "New Cracks in Nuclear Containment, As North Korea, South Korea and Iran Test Limits and Raise Risks of an Arms Race, the Global Challenge to Nonproliferation Grows." Throw in the Pakistanis, the Indians, the Israelis, who else, it would easier to start talking about the countries that don't have the bomb.

"The Washington Times" leads political. "Guardsmen Stand By Proud Bush. Speech Receives Standing Ovation." And then this is a pretty good story for those of you with good memories, which is all of you, isn't it? "Barry Battles For Revival in Ward 8." This is Marion Barry, the former disgraced mayor of Washington, D.C., in my humble opinion, who is running for the city council there. I think they call it city council.

I just like the headline. I hate the story, but I love the headline. "San Antonio Express-News." "This Country Is Lost" is the headline on their Iraq story today. It does -- since the weekend, it has just seemed particularly bad. They play the hurricane pretty tough, too. "Gulf is Battening Down for Ivan."

Thirty seconds left. There was something here I wanted to talk about. What was it? Oh, yes. Up at the top of "The Cincinnati Enquire," Traditions With Food. "Family's Rosh Hashanah Meal Takes Inspiration From the Way Mom Used to Make It." They have made one change. They've added flavor, but it does give us the opportunity to wish a happy new year to our Jewish viewers. Happy new year to you all.

How much time I got? OK, I'll use all 15 of it. "Boston Herald." "Kerry's Pit Bull. Ted K. Comes to the Rescue Again." I'm not sure what that is about.

And we'll go to "The Chicago Sun-Times." Isn't that what we always do? So the weather in Chicago, according to "The Sun-Times," tomorrow is...

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you very much -- "lively."

We'll wrap it up -- that was fun, wasn't it? We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Bill Hemmer now with just a sample of the many things coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow, on "AMERICAN MORNING," getting ready for Ivan, a huge hurricane moving its way through the Gulf, the eye not expected to make landfall until later in the week, but hurricane-force winds blazing a trail well in advance of the worst Ivan has to offer. I'll be on the Gulf Coast starting tomorrow morning here on "AMERICAN MORNING" watching that storm come on shore and getting ready for the stories of so many people in its path.

Have it for you tomorrow morning live at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. Hope to see you then -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Thank you, Bill.

And tomorrow night, a two-hour edition of NEWSNIGHT, as we keep track of the hurricane making its way. We'll have that and everything else that make NEWSNIGHT, NEWSNIGHT, 10:00 Eastern tomorrow.

Good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired September 14, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, my goodness.
There always seems to be a reason for new violence in Iraq. It was once that the former Ba'athists were trying to disrupt the Iraqi interim government. Then it became foreign fighters joining the old Ba'athists.

And then it became Shias unhappy that the Sunnis were getting power. And then it became all of these assorted bad guys trying to prevent the handover. And now it's this group or that, all of them, honestly it's hard to tell, trying to prevent elections and then, I suspect, it will be something else and it will be something else after that.

And all of it may be true, which is not the point. The point is that to date with all the resources available the coalition hasn't been able to stop it or slow it and, in fact, by all accounts the violence is getting worse.

All of us need to look long and hard at what is going on in Iraq on the ground these days and ask if the way this is being conducted makes sense and, if it isn't, what can be done and how quickly it can be done to stop the dying and make it better.

The whip begins on the ground in Baghdad, a very rough day again, CNN's Walter Rodgers, again, with a headline -- Walt.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a car bomb in Baghdad ten o'clock this morning, 47 people killed, more than 100 wounded and in Baquba, 12 police officers were killed in a drive-by shooting -- Aaron.

BROWN: Walt, thank you. We'll get back to you at the top.

Las Vegas next, the president on the campaign before a roomful of National Guardsmen. CNN's Senior White House Correspondent John King with the president, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president steered clear of the controversy about his National Guard service 30 years ago in that speech today but the first lady did not. She suggested publicly today those documents raising questions might be forgeries -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

In the Midwest, Senator John Kerry said he was focused like a laser on health care today. Candy Crowley traveling with the senator in Detroit tonight, Candy a headline.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, neither Kitty Kelley nor George Bush's National Guard history is going to keep John Kerry off his message, which today was health care for seniors -- Aaron.

BROWN: Candy, thank you, more from you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, millions are urged to leave the Big Easy as Hurricane Ivan bears down on the Gulf Coast.

Also, the White House calls it garbage but Kitty Kelley calls it her unflattering portrait of the Bush family and calls it the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KITTY KELLEY: I'm not surprised by what's happening but I think what they do play a very good game of offense, harm the messenger so you confuse and diffuse the message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Ms. Kelley's book hit the bookshelves today and tonight a candid discussion with Kitty Kelley, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin again in Iraq at the end of another bloody day. There have been a series of them of late. Two major attacks today, dozens of Iraqis dead.

In Baghdad, residents have nicknamed a street near one of the attacks Little Fallujah. It is that dangerous. The street is in the city's central business district, which says something about security in the capital of Iraq these days.

Given the unrelenting violence of the last several days throughout the country, it seems fair to ask tonight have the insurgents turned the corner? Are they now winning the war or is everyone in Iraq simply losing?

We begin tonight with CNN's Walter Rodgers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS (voice-over): Ambulance silence screamed as if in rage at the sight of a Baghdad car bombing. Here the death toll grew all day approaching 50. More than 100 were wounded, the apparent target a police station, young Iraqi men bringing their photos to apply for a job on the force.

These Baghdad bombs are indiscriminate. Witness the sandals of the dead. Many shop owners spent this day cleaning human flesh from their storefronts. The explosion shredded lives and bodies of a people already made miserable by war. The U.S. Apache helicopter was the only explanation many Iraqis needed.

"This is an American rocket," he says holding a piece of pipe.

Just before the explosion, this man assured us, "I spotted the Apache helicopter. It was a missile not a car bomb."

An Arab Islamist Web site claimed responsibility but even if there were concrete supporting evidence of that, the trend in Iraq is to transfer anger and responsibility.

"It was the Americans and the work of the Jews" he said.

In hospital, however, an injured man who survived the blast said he couldn't tell if it was a missile or a car bomb. These young men had dreams of building a new Iraq as policemen. Few other jobs are available. Still, even the most charitable Iraqis still believe the Americans had an obligation to protect them and failed. The American response...

MAJOR GEN. PETE CHIARELLI, U.S. ARMY: We can't protect all of Baghdad. We're working very, very hard to do that.

BROWN: So, there is much breast beating in hospitals these days, as areas beyond U.S. protection are increasingly targeted. In Baquba, another 12 policemen were murdered in a drive-by shooting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS: And, if there is now any doubt that the insurgents in Iraq have regained the initiative, they also sabotaged a major oil pipeline near Tikrit knocking out temporarily, at least, energy supplies, disrupting them for much of this country -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just tell me how all this gets reported in Iraq, in the Iraqi press. Is the Iraqi press blaming the Americans?

RODGERS: It would be dangerous not to blame the Americans here because there is this huge tidal current running against the United States, running against the military occupation, running against President George Bush.

At that car bombing today in Baghdad, people were walking through the streets shouting "Bush is a dog. Bush is a pimp." They also attacked the Prime Minister Ayad Allawi saying he was a pimp of the Americans. You don't stand against that sort of public sentiment here.

The feeling in Iraq is that the Americans had an obligation, legal under international law, to protect the Iraqi people. There is no security and the Iraqi people feel the Americans have dropped the ball on the security issue -- Aaron.

BROWN: Do you ever get the feeling they're playing to the camera? RODGERS: Sure but even in private conversations when I would ask people, "How do you really feel?" They said, "The Americans had an obligation to protect us and they failed" -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK. Walter, thank you, Walter Rodgers in a pretty dangerous place these days Baghdad.

On to the campaign now, Iraq figured obliquely at least into the equation by way of the National Guard. Speaking to the National Guard Association in Las Vegas, President Bush skirted the controversy over his service during Vietnam, even as he underscored his connection to his audience; our Senior White House Correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States.

KING (voice-over): A rousing welcome for the commander-in-chief and a brief mention of his National Guard service as a piece of political history, not as a campaign controversy.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nineteen individuals have served both in the Guard and as president of the United States and I'm proud to be one of them.

KING: The president praised the Guard role in Iraq and Afghanistan, promised more help for strained military families and said rival John Kerry exhibited weakness by shifting positions on Iraq because of pressure during the Democratic primaries.

BUSH: What's critical is that the president of the United States speak clearly and consistently at this time of great threat in our world and not change positions because of expediency or pressure.

KING: Not a word about new allegations he skirted the rules and received special treatment back when he was Lieutenant Bush in the Texas Air National Guard 30 years ago.

But First Lady Laura Bush in a Radio Iowa interview questioned the authenticity of memos CBS News says are from Mr. Bush's commanding officer. The memos mention pressure to sugarcoat evaluations and speculate Mr. Bush was using political connections to help arrange a transfer.

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, they probably are altered and they probably are forgeries and I think that's terrible really.

KING: The brother of a Guardsman killed in Iraq was among those on hand in Las Vegas to criticize the president.

DANTE ZAPPALA, BROTHER KILLED IN IRAQ: He has not supported our troops but he has used their service and sacrifice to satisfy a very reckless agenda. KING: But his reception was overwhelmingly positive and most on hand said performance in office matters more to them than his Guard record 30 years ago.

CAPT. JIM FLOWERS, MICHIGAN NATL. GUARD: I think President Bush has got us on the right path to combat terrorism and he made the right decision and that's coming from a commanding officer that spent 12 months in combat in Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Now the president recently reviewed those contested documents and aides say he had never seen them before and he says they do not reflect the tenor of his relationship with his commanding officer back then.

And these aides also say that the first lady was expressing a personal opinion when she speculated the documents were forgeries, not some new official position of the White House -- Aaron.

BROWN: And does the White House have an official position on the documents?

KING: The White House has said that media organizations are investigating as to whether they are authentic or not and they applaud that work.

BROWN: John, thank you, John King in Las Vegas tonight.

Senator John Kerry, meantime, spent the day campaigning in Ohio and Wisconsin. There is a sense that the map is shrinking some for the Senator, so both states are crucial and the Kerry camp has decided that for now at least its message is domestic policy and it is staying on message.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): National Guard story, the Kitty Kelley book, what story, what book?

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And the reason they're hiding the truth from the American people is because the out- of-pocket expenses of Medicare have now gone up to 37.2 percent by 2006.

CROWLEY: Wooing seniors in Milwaukee and Toledo, John Kerry was a man on message.

KERRY: I'm focused like a laser beam folks.

CROWLEY: Tuesday, it was Medicare and prescription drugs, a change in subject from Monday's focus on the assault weapons ban but the same target, the character of George W. Bush. KERRY: It's not just that the administration is making the wrong choice by feeding the insurance companies and the drug companies and depriving you of more available lower cost drugs. It's that they're being dishonest with you about it.

CROWLEY: Even when he strayed from the topic du jour and offered a critique of the president's National Guard speech, Kerry stayed in the lines accusing the president of glossing over the truth of Iraq.

KERRY: You know and I know, Americans know and the world knows because all you have to do is see it on the evening news or read the newspapers that the situation in Iraq is worse not better.

CROWLEY: But on the matter of the president's National Guard service that has been outsourced. The Kerry campaign gave the Democratic National Committee carte blanche to open up on George Bush on any subject too flammable for the candidate to touch.

TERRY MCAULIFFE, CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: His lack of commitment 30 years ago is an insult to those who fulfilled their National Guard duty. His lies only make the matter worse.

CROWLEY: The DNC has cobbled together a two-minute film titled "Fortunate Son," its version of George Bush's National Guard career. The RNC called the film as creative and accurate as the memos Democrats gave CBS, just a game of hardball the candidate would rather not play.

KERRY: I really want to sort of lower my voice. I want Independents and undecided voters and Republicans to think about this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: The Kerry campaign is so committed to keeping their candidate free of any extraneous issues that we are now in the seventh week of no full press conferences for John Kerry. He has promised one very soon but an aide explained later that means as soon as he wants to make news -- Aaron.

BROWN: Candy, thank you, Candy Crowley in Detroit tonight.

One other item here before we head to break. Call the airport first if you're headed to L.A. or San Diego. There's a ground stop in effect, which means that planes aren't being allowed to take off to head west to L.A. and San Diego.

Planes in the air are being allowed to land and they are landing safely. The FAA said radio communications were lost with high altitude planes over Southern Cal earlier today. About 800 planes affected when the system collapsed. The FAA has other ways of communicating with planes and says no one is at risk.

Still ahead on the program tonight, in the eyes of the storm, residents in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana brace for Hurricane Ivan. And then there's Hurricane Kitty Kelley, who joins us to talk about her book, including domestic violence and the young George W. Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLEY: There was an entire year where Barbara and George Bush did not speak to their eldest son because of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Truth or fiction? Our interview with the celebrity biographer still ahead.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On a grim day in Iraq after several days in a row that have been quite grim and no end in sight, we talked this afternoon with Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator, we're obviously in the middle. We've had three or four very bad days in Iraq, a lot of casualties, Iraqi casualties, American casualties. How ought we think of this?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I think we ought to think of it as a great struggle that we can't afford to lose that the people who are doing the killing have an agenda. Their agenda is to make sure democratic forces fail in Iraq.

The people who are dying are the ones who are signing up to be policemen and be in the army and to hold elected office. They're trying to change their country. The battle lines have drawn and we need to stick with those who are trying to change Iraq for the better because it really does make us more secure.

It's going to be a very difficult struggle for those folks in Iraq to make it through this to January because between now and January they're going to come after every Democratic force very hard and we just need to hunker down and hang in there with them.

BROWN: I want to talk to you a bit about a conversation I had with your colleague and I think your friend Joe Biden last week.

GRAHAM: Yes.

BROWN: I know you traveled with him over there and you had these experiences and he came away feeling that in many respects there is no good plan. The American -- the administration really doesn't have a reasonable plan to solve the problems that need to be solved.

GRAHAM: Well, we've made a lot of mistakes since the fall of Baghdad. We underestimated the level of the insurgency. We have not given the capacity to the Iraqi people to maintain their own freedom and the plan I think has been short in many areas. Abu Ghraib is a good example of not having the right skill mix on the ground, not planning for an overwhelming event in that prison.

So, I agree with Senator Biden that we made mistakes. I'm hopeful, however, that we will make adjustments and that we've got the right people on the ground and that we will accelerate training of the police. We'll accelerate training of the army.

The only way we'll ever get out of Iraq with our honor and to be more secure is for the Iraqis who are left behind to have the capacity to run their country with Democratic principles.

BROWN: It's not a terrible stretch anymore for one to look at the situation and say it is at least ripe for civil war.

GRAHAM: Well, I think we've done a very poor job of controlling Sadr. Once you tell someone that you're going to pay a price and they don't pay that price, then you send the wrong signal. Once you say you're going to take Fallujah, you better take Fallujah.

What we've done is we've allowed pockets of resistance to grow. We've been less than decisive. We've made deals with warlords and people who are not really part of the democratic process and we paid a price.

And the way we need to adjust it in my opinion is stand behind Prime Minister Allawi, make sure that the January elections are fairly held and that we isolate people like Sadr and we don't allow the Shia population to be used in a way to create civil war.

BROWN: Just, sir, a final question. Do you believe in your heart, I mean we're in mid-September now that between now and January the Sunni Triangle can be taken back or at least those areas that we don't control now and that the conditions on the ground can exist for a reasonable campaign and a fair election in a very short period of time?

GRAHAM: I believe that if the election is perceived to be fair by the Iraqi people, it makes it more difficult for the people creating chaos to survive. The key to solving this problem is have the Iraqi people to tell us who these folks are, where they're operating and what tactics they're using. And we're finding more good information every day.

The Iraqi people are getting tired of the terror and they're beginning to be more cooperative. If we have an election in January that's a flop, if it's perceived by the Iraqi people to have been an illegitimate election, then I think we've had a huge step backwards.

And between now and our November election and between now and January there will be hell to pay in Iraq because the stakes are very high but, if we can make it through January, Aaron, then I think we've turned the corner.

BROWN: Senator, thanks for your time. You are a welcome guest here anytime you choose. Come join us.

GRAHAM: Thank you. Thank you, sir.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. We talked to him earlier today.

Coming up next, Kitty Kelley's latest book on the president and his family, a tough book it is. We work a little bit on separating fact from fiction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLEY: I think as an American you'll feel just a little bit conned by the public image. No, I think it's a -- I think it's a realistic portrait. I stand behind everything in the book.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, saying that a Kitty Kelley book is an unauthorized biography is like saying what bank robber Willie Sutton did was make unauthorized withdrawals.

A combination of investigative reporting and some would say unverified gossip, her books are condemned by their subjects and widely, widely, widely read.

Now, as she's come out with "The Family," a tell-all tale about the Bush's, presidents 41 and 43 and the rest of the Bush clan, as usual there are accusations that what she has written is unproven and slanderous and, as usual, it's expected the books will fly off the shelves.

We talked with Ms. Kelley this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I want to talk about some of the specific things in the book, obviously, and some of the things that have made news and we'll walk through those. But first, just tell me what has this period been like?

The book has been attacked and the White House has weighed in. Others have weighed in. None of this could be terribly surprising to you. You've been through this before to one degree or another. What's it been like?

KELLEY: Well, the White House has issued two releases. The Republican National Committee has issued to their conservative talk show hosts a list of talking points. The White House has called networks to keep me off the air.

Now, you're right, it's not a surprise but unfortunately the book is just being published today, so the White House hasn't seen it. They haven't read it, not that they'll embrace it when they do read it.

BROWN: I can almost assure you they won't.

KELLEY: I'll take your word for it.

BROWN: Because it is -- it is -- not that I've read every page of it to be honest. I'm about two-thirds of the way through. It is not an especially flattering portrait of either the president or the president's family and I don't think you'd disagree with that, would you?

KELLEY: No, I wouldn't disagree with it and I would even go further to say when you finish the book you're going to feel heartbroken I think. I think it's an unsettling portrait of the Bush family and I think as an American you'll feel just a little bit conned by the public image. No, I think it's -- I think it's a realistic portrait. I stand behind everything in the book but, no, it's not -- not happy.

BROWN: OK. One more question before we get to some of the specifics. As we sit here now are you persuaded now that every allegation in the book is truthful, not that the people who told you believed it or that -- I'm not questioning whether someone told you something. What I'm asking you is do you now believe that everything they told you is the truth?

KELLEY: And am I comfortable with every single source?

BROWN: Yes.

KELLEY: And the documentation?

BROWN: Yes.

KELLEY: Absolutely 100 percent.

BROWN: OK. Let's talk about it.

KELLEY: And that's even including Sharon Bush.

BROWN: All right. Let's start there. I suppose in some respects that's the one that has gotten the most attention.

KELLEY: It has.

BROWN: The question about the president using cocaine, not simply after he said he had given up alcohol and whatever else he might have given up, but while his father was president and at Camp David.

And you write: "Years later, George's sister-in-law Sharon Bush, alleged that W. had snorted cocaine with one of his brothers at Camp David during the time their father was president, not once, she said, but many times." As you know, she denies the conversation.

KELLEY: Well, she can't deny the conversation because it took place. It took place April 1, 2003. It took place in front of another person, Lou Colasuonno. It took place at a restaurant in New York City. I didn't go to Sharon Bush. She came to me.

I then confirmed my quotes the next day with Sharon Bush in front of my editor Peter Gethers and later I took her to the William Morris Agency to see my agent because she wanted to give speeches. So, on the two occasions where substantial information was exchanged, I have two independent witnesses.

BROWN: Now, just a couple things on this and this is part of, I think, before she retracted. This is part of the White House position, but it's not an unfair point to make -- this was a woman who was involved in a very difficult, I think she would certainly call it, very difficult divorce.

KELLEY: Contentious.

BROWN: And was left, in her view, high and dry by the family and broke.

KELLEY: Aaron, it still doesn't mean that what she said over that lunch is not true. And it wasn't just the current president's drug use that she talked about. She talked about her father-in-law, his infidelity. She talked her mother-in-law, Barbara Bush. She had spent 23 years in that family, and she knew an awful lot.

BROWN: Why do you think she has walked away from the quotes?

KELLEY: Oh, I think she's scared. This is a very, very powerful family. I had trouble getting a lot of people to go on the record. People are frightened, and with good reason. You don't just -- this is a sitting president. His father was a former president.

BROWN: But what are they going to do to you?

KELLEY: Well, look what they've done to her. They've brought pressure to bear. What they do -- I'm not surprised by what's happening, but I think what they do, play a very good game of offense, harm the messenger, so you confuse and defuse the message.

BROWN: I mean, would they harm her, do you think?

KELLEY: Beat her up?

BROWN: Yes. I mean, are we talking...

KELLEY: I'll tell you something. During her -- during her interview over lunch, she told Lou and me that her husband, Neil Bush, had left a message on her tape machine, saying, if you're not careful, you're going to find yourself in a dark alley. And you do find yourself when someone says that, it sounds so hyperbolic, so melodramatic, but people are frightened. There's no question, people are frightened. What are they going to do? It isn't just -- it isn't a physical harm that people are afraid of. It's more -- it could be social. It could be political. Jobs could be in danger. Why would the Bushes go to -- the Bush White House before they even see the book have reacted this way?

BROWN: Because we're at a couple months before a presidential election, and they know that this book is not any bed of roses. We all knew that before it came out. So I can -- I don't have any problem understanding why they're on the attack. That makes perfect sense.

Let's talk about some of the things they -- a couple others they object to. Actually, one that they object to and one I got a problem with, how's that?

KELLEY: Oh, boy.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: You want to take the last one first?

You write this on possible spousal abuse. You say, "Often George would" -- this is when he was drinking -- "would disappear at night and Laura would not know where he was. Friends recalled a drunken George being bitingly sarcastic and pugnacious. One friend even worried about spousal abuse, but there is no official police report to document the allegation."

Why is that there? You have no source that says it exists, that there was spousal abuse. There is no record there was spousal abuse. That is pure gossip, isn't it?

KELLEY: Well, I interviewed an awful lot of people. And they talked about how abusive George W. was.

Now, you have got to remember, this was during the time when he was really drinking heavily. At this time, George and Barbara Bush had cut off communication with him. There was an entire year where Barbara and George Bush did not speak to their eldest son because of this.

BROWN: But you have no source...

KELLEY: I do have sources, I promise you.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right. All right. Let me ask -- I'm not going to -- really, I don't want to argue.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: It's just, the best I can tell, you -- as best I can tell, you have no source that says there was spousal abuse.

KELLEY: No.

BROWN: You have a source that says, well, people worried about it, and there's no evidence there was.

KELLEY: That's right.

BROWN: Isn't that to some degree -- that's just printing gossip. That's unfair, isn't it?

KELLEY: No, I really don't think it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Fair or not, the rest of the interview with Kitty Kelley after the break.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Here's part two of our conversation with Kitty Kelley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As best I can tell, you have no source that says there was spousal abuse.

KELLEY: No.

BROWN: You have a source that says, well, people worried about it, and there's no evidence there was.

KELLEY: That's right.

BROWN: Isn't that to some degree -- that's just printing gossip. That's unfair, isn't it?

KELLEY: No, I really don't think it is. I think it gives you a window into his absolutely rampaging pugnaciousness during the time that he was drinking.

BROWN: Do you know much or anything about what led up to his stopping drinking?

KELLEY: Well...

BROWN: I mean, we all know the story in broad strokes. Do you know the story?

KELLEY: The story of being hung over on his 40th birthday and -- what I can't understand is why people are surprised that there would be a slip from sobriety, why there would be a slip from substance abuse. It's very hard for people to give up drugs. It's very hard for people to give up alcohol. So what is the big surprise? So he did slip.

BROWN: Two more things -- perhaps more, but two for sure.

On the National Guard stuff, which we've all spent, frankly, I think, too much time talking about, but, nevertheless, you tie this into the drug question. And it's been that -- I suppose, the subtext for a long time about why he didn't take his flight physical.

And you write: "That same month, the Air Force began executing random drug tests, which meant that any pilot or mechanic could be requested on the spot to submit to urinalysis, blood tests or examination of the nasal passages for cocaine use. On April 17, 1972, George W. Bush made his last recorded flight before disappearing from the official records until October 1972."

I know what you're suggesting there. What I'm curious about is what you know. What do you know about that period, beyond that he doesn't fly and he doesn't take the physical? Do you know he was using drugs then?

KELLEY: I only can go as far as what I have in the book. But it could be solved for us if we could see the flight inquiry board record. And that's the record that contains the medical information. Up to that point, he had a solid record in the National Guard, according to Robert Rogers.

BROWN: Here's, I think, the problem. And it's a difference, I think, and a difference in what -- I don't mean this pejoratively at all -- it's a difference in what you do and, in a sense, what I do. You are clearly suggesting something here. You agree with that?

KELLEY: I do agree with that, and I think that it bears examination.

BROWN: OK. And that may -- that may be well and good. Is that journalism? Are you doing journalism there, or is that gossip?

KELLEY: I think it's good reporting. You can only go as far as you can go. It deserves examination.

BROWN: But you're drawing a connection. You're saying there was this -- these random drug tests, A.

KELLEY: A.

BROWN: B, there were these...

KELLEY: He suddenly...

BROWN: Let me throw in one more.

KELLEY: Sorry.

BROWN: There was a kind of suspicion. And then, C, he disappeared. He doesn't take his physical. He stops flying.

KELLEY: Do you think that is really so illogical? I've just put them down.

BROWN: I'm not suggesting that the math there doesn't work.

KELLEY: Right.

BROWN: I'm suggesting that we don't know with the kind of certainty that as a journalist I would need to know before I could publish that. So what's the standard?

KELLEY: I put down what I know. I put down what I found out. I didn't go any further. You can draw the dots. You can connect the dots. But I think it is legitimate to put that down that way.

BROWN: OK.

One final area which I -- I'm -- this is a degree to how cynical, I suppose, I am. At the end of the day, here is the picture in broad strokes. This is a well-to-do and well-connected family. This is a family of privilege and, to a certain extent, a sense of entitlement. This is a family where their kids get in trouble and pay no consequences, where their kids get into terrific schools without really doing the work, white man's affirmative action.

This could be the story -- this happens to be, in your view, the story of the Bushes. But it could be the Kennedys or the Rockefellers or anybody else. What's new here? This is the story of American wealth, isn't it, entitlement, privilege, no consequences? Kennedy children went through this. How are the Bushes different...

KELLEY: Oh.

BROWN: ... in that way?

KELLEY: I don't think the Bushes have paid the prices that other families have paid.

But I wasn't doing the other families. I was doing the Bush family, because they're unique, in that they've put a father and a son in the White House within one decade. And I think that we have had this public image of the Bushes. And the disconnect between that and the private reality is really the news in the book, not the...

BROWN: But don't -- don't -- I mean, none of us does it to the degree that -- that presidential families do, but we all -- there's a difference in all of our public images and our private lives. None of us are precisely what they appear. No marriage is perfect. Everybody has ups and downs. In every family, there's one kid who's a goof-off.

KELLEY: You're right. Every family has its positives and its...

BROWN: So what is the big deal about this one?

KELLEY: Because...

BROWN: Why is this one a bigger deal? KELLEY: Because this is a big deal family. This is the most powerful family in the country today. If it's the most powerful family in America, it's the most powerful family in the world.

BROWN: It's good to meet you.

KELLEY: It's great meeting you. Thanks.

BROWN: Really, people -- look, the book has a huge first press run.

KELLEY: Yes.

BROWN: It's getting -- there's -- if controversy equals publicity equals sales, it's going to do terrifically well. And people will read it and judge it, which is what they in the end should do, I suppose, good, bad or otherwise.

It's nice to meet you.

KELLEY: Great to meet you.

BROWN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Kitty Kelley. We talked with her this afternoon.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, another hurricane is on its way. And along the Gulf Coast this time, residents are on their way as fast as they can, which isn't as always fast as they wish.

And we'll get a first look at tomorrow morning's papers as well, because, around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If it wasn't so serious, if it wasn't a disaster where dozens have already died and thousands more are in danger, the temptation would be to say, here we go again, more TV correspondents standing in the rain, more pictures of wind-whipped palm trees. But it is deadly, deadly serious. Hurricane Ivan has already devastated parts of the Caribbean. It's aiming its 140-mile-an-hour winds at the Gulf Coast tonight.

CNN's Susan Candiotti is in Biloxi.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With a state of emergency in effect, Mobile gallery owner Yolanda Avery (ph) is boxing up what she can, and moving everything else off the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm getting some of my larger pictures, some of my better artists, a lot of my limited edition pieces, and I'm trying to protect them, take them out of town.

CANDIOTTI: With Mobile Bay just around the corner, flooding is a sure bet if Ivan pounds ashore.

Boats line the Mobile River, coming up from the bay, from freighters and cargo ships, to sport fishing boats, all trying to move out of harm's way.

With Ivan inching closer and closer, there is little time to spare. A downtown office building sandbagging its ground floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So everything is pulled away from the windows. We have all the interior doors locked and shut.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Landfall is expected early Thursday. The weather will start to go downhill beginning tomorrow... CANDIOTTI: Interstate 10 heading east and west, busy throughout the day. New Orleans, below sea level, also a potential target, a voluntary evacuation urging residents to move to higher ground.

MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: If we get a storm like Ivan to hit us directly, or to become -- come really close to us, then we could have a situation where we have 12 to 18 feet of water throughout the city.

CANDIOTTI: In Biloxi, Mississippi, a dozen Gulf Coast hotel casinos were ordered closed at noon, guests ushered out two hours later.

Just off the shore, Treasure Bay, a casino hit hard by George in 1998.

BERNIE BURKHOLDER, CEO, TREASURE BAY CASINO: We've been in waist deep water here in previous times.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): And how high up would that be where we're walking now?

BURKHOLDER: It would be at an elevation of about eight above sea level.

CANDIOTTI: Biyab Mabli (ph) escaped Saint Croix before Frances and now has Ivan nipping at his heels. He says he's starting to take it personally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very scary. I don't like it. It's not good.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): And disaster planners not at all pleased with those refusing to budge despite a mandatory evacuation order, arming deputies with forms going door to door, asking for next of kin.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Biloxi, Mississippi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. I always miss doing this on days I'm not here. Sometimes, I just want to come in at about 10:53 and do it.

"International Herald Tribune," really, published by "The New York Times" in Paris. "Scores Die in Iraq in Wave of Attacks." This is the lead today. "Car Bomb and Ambush Aimed at Police As Insurgents Step Up Their Campaign." Interesting sidebar, an analysis piece, "Americans Seem Not to Focus on the War." I don't know if that's true. I mean, I hope that is not true. I hope people are paying attention to it. It's their sons and daughters. It's our sons and daughters over there.

"The Christian Science Monitor."

I don't want to think people aren't paying attention to it.

"Christian Science Monitor." "New Cracks in Nuclear Containment, As North Korea, South Korea and Iran Test Limits and Raise Risks of an Arms Race, the Global Challenge to Nonproliferation Grows." Throw in the Pakistanis, the Indians, the Israelis, who else, it would easier to start talking about the countries that don't have the bomb.

"The Washington Times" leads political. "Guardsmen Stand By Proud Bush. Speech Receives Standing Ovation." And then this is a pretty good story for those of you with good memories, which is all of you, isn't it? "Barry Battles For Revival in Ward 8." This is Marion Barry, the former disgraced mayor of Washington, D.C., in my humble opinion, who is running for the city council there. I think they call it city council.

I just like the headline. I hate the story, but I love the headline. "San Antonio Express-News." "This Country Is Lost" is the headline on their Iraq story today. It does -- since the weekend, it has just seemed particularly bad. They play the hurricane pretty tough, too. "Gulf is Battening Down for Ivan."

Thirty seconds left. There was something here I wanted to talk about. What was it? Oh, yes. Up at the top of "The Cincinnati Enquire," Traditions With Food. "Family's Rosh Hashanah Meal Takes Inspiration From the Way Mom Used to Make It." They have made one change. They've added flavor, but it does give us the opportunity to wish a happy new year to our Jewish viewers. Happy new year to you all.

How much time I got? OK, I'll use all 15 of it. "Boston Herald." "Kerry's Pit Bull. Ted K. Comes to the Rescue Again." I'm not sure what that is about.

And we'll go to "The Chicago Sun-Times." Isn't that what we always do? So the weather in Chicago, according to "The Sun-Times," tomorrow is...

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you very much -- "lively."

We'll wrap it up -- that was fun, wasn't it? We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Bill Hemmer now with just a sample of the many things coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow, on "AMERICAN MORNING," getting ready for Ivan, a huge hurricane moving its way through the Gulf, the eye not expected to make landfall until later in the week, but hurricane-force winds blazing a trail well in advance of the worst Ivan has to offer. I'll be on the Gulf Coast starting tomorrow morning here on "AMERICAN MORNING" watching that storm come on shore and getting ready for the stories of so many people in its path.

Have it for you tomorrow morning live at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. Hope to see you then -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Thank you, Bill.

And tomorrow night, a two-hour edition of NEWSNIGHT, as we keep track of the hurricane making its way. We'll have that and everything else that make NEWSNIGHT, NEWSNIGHT, 10:00 Eastern tomorrow.

Good night for all of us.

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