Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Bush, Kerry Prep for Third Debate; U.S.-Backed Iraqi Forces Battle Insurgents

Aired October 12, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Well, good evening, again. You're looking at one happy guy tonight, happy and as it turns out, well-fed, having enjoyed one of the rare perks of my life, a guest appearance on the "Iron Chef" program on the Food network. The food was first-rate, if a little odd in spots. And so, too, was the hospitality. First-rate, that is. Alton Brown, the host of the program, couldn't have been nicer and now would be a good time to remind everyone that brining your turkey really does keep it from drying out.
The "Iron Chef" in case you haven't seen it, involves two chefs, one theme ingredient and an hour to create a gourmet meal. The clock ticks, the chefs cook, then the judges pick a winner. Food as sport and if you're so inclined, you can draw any number of parallels between that and the campaign and wonder if, in turning either one into sport, something essential is lost. But we're not so inclined tonight. Not really. We're just a little bit full. "The whip" begins out west on the eve of the final presidential debates. CNN's Candy Crowley traveling with the Kerry campaign, gets the nod to start us off with a headline, Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, let me move from the cooking analogy to the sporting analogy, going into tomorrow night's debate. The Kerry team believes they are now two wins to George Bush's zero. They're looking for a clean sweep tomorrow night.

BROWN: Well, that's something to chew on. Thank you, Candy. We'll get back to you at the top tonight.

For the president, a different set of expectations and not surprisingly, a different message. So we turn to our senior White House correspondent, John King for the headline. John?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a lot of pressure on the president, obviously, after the first two debates. But Mr. Bush said today he is certain tomorrow's debate will be a whole lot of fun. He also made clear he'll try to paint the senator from Massachusetts as a big-spending liberal. Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. Next, the Pentagon and what's being done or at least being tried to save Americans and others being taken hostage in Iraq. Jamie McIntyre with the watch and the headline.

JAMIE McINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, CNN has learned that the U.S. tried not once, but twice to rescue hostages in Iraq before they were beheaded. The missions, however, failed because the intelligence was either wrong or out-of-date.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

And finally, Baghdad in efforts to tighten the screws on Fallujah. CNN's Brent Sadler, again, with us tonight. And Brent, a headline.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, U.S.-backed Iraqi forces target Sunni Muslim insurgents in their hideouts while efforts to partially disarm a Shia militia in a Baghdad city slum failed to gain any real momentum.

BROWN: Brent, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the risks of fighting the insurgency in Iraq with smart bombs from above. Is the desire to minimize American casualties coming at too high a price in Iraqi lives? Will it create simply another generation of insurgents?

Also tonight, the people in Beslan struggling to come to terms with the terrorist massacre there, 40 days since that day. Is there any hope in sight for them?

And later -- a welcome break, we hope, "morning papers" will end the hour. All that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight on the campaign, three weeks to go, the maneuvering fully under way, each campaign shifting resources from states either in the bag or out of reach entirely to those still in play. But as important as the tactics may be, nothing much matters until and unless the candidates get through one more debate, tomorrow night in Tempe. So, two reports tonight, beginning with CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY (voice-over): John Kerry opted for another laid back, pre-debate down day in New Mexico amid great expectations inside the campaign.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John Kerry's going to win that debate tomorrow and one of the reasons he's going to win is because George Bush is out of touch.

CROWLEY: Kerry's strategists believe they occupy the cat bird seat, moving up in the polls, about to face the president in a forum the president does not excel in, discussing issues the senator believes favor him.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For the last four years, one man has stood between America and lower cost prescription drugs -- George Bush. As president, I'll fight to allow Americans to import lower-cost prescription drugs from Canada.

CROWLEY: In advance of Wednesday's debate on domestic issues, the Kerry campaign has been softening up the competition, taking practice swings on prescription drugs, energy costs and stem cell research. The issue was re-elevated into the headlines with Sunday's death of Christopher Reeve, a personal tragedy, mixing uneasily with national politics.

EDWARDS: If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk, get up out of that wheelchair and walk again.

CROWLEY: Kerry's strategist say only the far right would find anything offensive about Edwards' words. But some Democrats outside the campaign say Kerry and company need to be careful how they use the Reeve name. Kerry was scheduled to spend debate eve in the Phoenix area. But when the sun came out in New Mexico, he changed his plans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: But where John Kerry rests his head on debate eve will not matter nearly so much as where he goes on the day after the debates. With those over, it now turns into the ground game. Where will they spend the candidate's time? And where will they spend their resources, which are dwindling as rapidly on both sides as the calendar days are. Aaron.

BROWN: In that regard, the "Chicago Tribune" tomorrow morning will publish a poll giving Kerry a slight lead in three critical states -- Ohio, Minnesota, Wisconsin and slightly behind in Iowa, all within the margin, but what the "Tribune" finds interesting about this is that in all of those states, the issues most on the voters' minds are the domestic issues -- jobs and health care, not terror and Iraq which, arguably, plays to the Kerry side.

CROWLEY: Well, arguably. But a lot of the criticism and a lot of the commentary that came out of the second debate, Aaron, they're very well aware of this in the Kerry campaign, is that Kerry was strongest on the Iraq debate and that George Bush was better when it got to the domestic issues. Though they take nothing for granted, they expect their candidate to be very strong tomorrow. But they have always known that in those battleground states, some of them that you mentioned, others that are out there like West Virginia, that they do believe and have always believed, those are domestic issue states and what they need to do is begin to reach out to those swing voters, which they have been doing. As one of the aides said to me recently, you know, from here on out this is focused all on the middle-class and their problems.

BROWN: Candy, thank you. We'll talk tomorrow night, I am sure, from Tempe. I think one of those reporters who said that last week was this one.

Just as the candidates have started narrowing the geographical scope of their efforts, they have also cut back rhetorically, settling on a message or two they believe will resonate. Reporting on that side of the story with the president tonight, CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: In Colorado Springs three weeks to Election Day, testing themes for a final debate dedicated to domestic issues.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As much as he's try to obscure it, on issue after issue, my opponent has showed why he's earned his ranking as the most liberal member of the United States Senate.

KING: Hours later in Arizona, Mr. Bush said he's eager to use the last giant audience of the campaign to draw a sharp philosophical contrast and paint Senator Kerry as a big spender who would have to raise taxes to pay for all his promises.

BUSH: You're not going to have fiscal sanity if John Kerry is the president.

KING: Mr. Bush mocked Senator Kerry's claim in the last debate that his health care plan would not give the government more control.

BUSH: I can barely contain myself. Of course, the government has something to do with his plan. It's the cornerstone of his plan. It's the crux of his health care policy to expand the Federal government.

KING: In the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, Senator Kerry has a giant edge on health care. The economy is more of a tossup. And the president has a slight edge on taxes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bush is especially vulnerable in the battleground states on the economy. The economy is the number one issue in the polls. Not Iraq. Not homeland security. The states that in play are states that have high unemployment.

KING: Polls judge Senator Kerry the winner of the first two debates. Republicans say a closer look at the electoral map still suggests the slight Bush advantage, but concedes the president needs a strong showing Wednesday night.

JOHN McHENRY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Does he have some work to do, to sort of seal the deal and win on November 2? Sure. The same could be said for Senator Kerry. All things considered, I don't know that you'd say either has much of an advantage at this point.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: It seems a bid odd coming from an administration in power for some 45 months now but one reason the Bush team says Senator Kerry has that big edge on health care and some of the domestic issues is that because in their view, with all the focus on terrorism and war, many viewers don't now about, many voters don't know much about the president's domestic proposals. In that regard Aaron, the Bush team thinks the debate can only help.

BROWN: Just two observations and you'll run with them in whatever direction you want. One is I find it interesting that the president is still campaigning in Colorado, where he won easily four years ago. And secondly, when you watch him on the stump, how much more comfortable he looks than he looks in the debates.

KING: It is remarkable how much better and more comfortable he is as a campaigner than he is in the debates. He was better in the town hall debate than in the first debate and that is a Republican worry. We're back to the first format in this debate and they're hoping the president does not turn in a repeat of his first performance. Certainly, the president is a much better campaigner. As one aide put it a long time ago at the beginning of the debates, they want to check this box and get the president out back out on the road. Why Colorado, that is one -- Republicans believe they are playing in more states Al Gore won last time and that's a disadvantage for Kerry. But Colorado was one that is very tight to their surprise, in part because of an influx of Latino voters.

BROWN: John, thank you and we'll talk with you tomorrow night after the debate, as well. John King, our senior White House correspondent, traveling with the president.

On to Iraq, which remains a key backdrop for the presidential debate in the United States, if not specifically the questions tomorrow. We have several reports tonight, beginning with new information about a U.S. military effort to rescue several western hostages. Efforts that were unsuccessful, the hostages beheaded. Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

McINTYRE: Back in September, shortly after Americans Eugene Armstrong and Jack Hensley and Briton Kenneth Bigley were kidnapped from their home in Baghdad, the U.S. launched a military operation to rescue them. In fact, there were two attempts, both in Baghdad, according to an official with direct knowledge of the operations. The first came in mid-September, when all of the hostages were believed to still be alive. But CNN has been told it failed because when the rescue team reached the location, no one was there.

It's not clear if the hostages had been moved or whether the intelligence was flawed and they were never there. After Eugene Armstrong was beheaded a few days later, a second rescue mission was also launched the official says. Again, the result was the same. No one was at the targeted location. The failed rescue attempts have not been publicly acknowledged. But at the time, U.S. military officials said everything possible was being done to free the hostages, either by rescuing them or arranging for their release.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

McINTYRE: And in this case, all three hostages were eventually murdered. While the rescue attempts failed it wasn't for lack of trying. As one U.S. official put it, a lot of people had a lot of sleepless nights trying to find them. Aaron?

BROWN: I'll bet they did. Does it -- do we extrapolate out from this the quality or the lack of quality, generally speaking, of the American intelligence in Iraq?

McINTYRE: Clearly, the intelligence was lacking in this case. Either it wasn't timely enough or it was wrong entirely. According to sources who tell us what happened in these operations, they went there, they found evidence that somebody was at the locations where they went. But they're still not sure if the hostages were ever actually there and of course the best operation can't succeed if it's based on flawed intelligence. But the point, I think a lot of the officials are trying to make was that the U.S. wasn't just sitting around waiting for the hostages to being released. They were actively doing everything they possibly could to try to find them and try to rescue them.

BROWN: Thank you, Jamie. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.

Tonight, in Iraq, the fight to reclaim control from the insurgents escalates. U.S. and Iraqi troops now working against two deadlines. The first fast approaching, Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, begins this weekend. And there is concern it could inspire a wave of attacks. It did a year ago.

Beyond that of course, there's the January deadline for elections in the country, making Iraq stable enough for those elections to go forward as planned, remains the goal. All of that is a long-winded way of saying something quite simple -- it was another bloody day in Iraq. Here's CNN's Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER (voice-over): U.S.-led military action on multiple fronts in Iraq. American warplanes hit two suspected terror targets in Fallujah, in the early hours of Tuesday destroying a safe house and a planning center used by foreign fighters loyal to Abu Musab al Zarqawi according to U.S. officials. Zarqawi associates were targeted it's claimed, while planning more suicide bombings and kidnappings. Escalating anti-insurgent operations in Ramadi, some 60 miles west of Baghdad, where Iraqi troops, backed up by U.S. Marines, launched a series of raids on seven mosques in the city. Holy sites are normally afforded protected status in the fighting. But in Ramadi, U.S. officials say these mosques were used for insurgent activity, including weapons storage, recruitment for fighters and harboring terrorists.

But in Sadr city, close to the capital, U.S. forces have put a hold on military action, pending the outcome of a voluntary surrender of weapons, by Mehdi army fighters which began yesterday. But progress is slow. No other encouraging signs, either, say U.S. commanders. Militants, they say, have not removed hundreds of improvised bombs that line some of Sadr city's streets, with the density of mine field.

COL. ABE ABRAMS, 1ST CAV DIV US ARMY: Over a 1.5 kilometer stretch of road, had over 120 improvised explosive devices.

SADLER: Every bomb, bullet and machine gun is being carefully counted, day by day. But so far, say U.S. military officials, the tally is less than convincing. By Saturday, though, come what may with the weapons count, says the U.S. military, security sweeps in this Shia slum neighborhood will resume to root out weapons for insurgents. But if the militia really disarms and relinquishes thousands of armaments, a less-intense military action is expected.

ABRAMS: If the numbers are not very high, then we'll have a requirement to broaden our search into many other places. And it will be anything but surgical or cursory.

SADLER: A clear warning that by week's end, the Mehdi army faces renewed offensive military action by U.S.-backed Iraqi forces, unless the militia lays down its huge arsenal of weapons between now and then.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER: In most cases, those weapons are being handed in in exchange for cash. A machine gun, for example, fetches about $1,000 U.S. Now, the U.S. military tried a similar scheme in May of this year. To give you some idea of the scale of weaponry involved, that operation just five months ago collected enough weapons to equip an entire U.S. Army division of troops, 10,000 strong. Five months later, Sadr City, Aaron, is still awash with weapons tonight.

BROWN: Well, that will keep people awake tonight. Thanks a lot. One quick question -- is there -- in this operation in Ramadi and to a certain extent in Sadr City, is there evidence that the Iraqis themselves are fighting better than they have been, let's say, two or three months ago?

SADLER: In terms of Sadr City, no fighting for the past 48 hours but expect that to change, one way or the other, either very dramatically or less dramatically at the weekend. In terms of how they're operating, very similar to what they've been doing for many months now, hit and run. As far as insurgents in other areas are concerned, pretty much more or less the same. Hiding out, coming into cities --

BROWN: I didn't ask the question very elegantly. Let me try it again. I'm actually interested in how the Iraqi army and the Iraqi National Guard, the Iraqi civil defense, all of these various government forces, are responding. Are they carrying their load these days?

SADLER: I wouldn't say carrying their load. But I spoke to U.S. commanders today in the field and they're certainly beginning to take notice that Iraqi guardsmen are holding the line. They're killing people. And they're beginning to take serious responsibility in combat operations.

BROWN: Brent, thank you, my apologies for not being clearer there. Brent Sadler in Baghdad.

There are, where Iraq is concerned, any war these days, really two central, indisputable facts -- people die and some of them are innocent. We can pretend otherwise. But that's all it is. And you know it. And the Pentagon knows it. And you can be certain the Iraqis know it. So while smart weapons no doubt reduce the danger to innocence, reduction is not elimination. And as the battlefield shrinks and it is shrinking in Iraq, the danger to the innocents grows. From the Pentagon, here's CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A house in Fallujah bombed by U.S. warplanes. The target -- terrorist loyal to Abu Musab al Zarqawi. An official statement says quote, intelligence indicated there were no innocent civilians at the terrorist safe house, but the body of a child is pulled from the rubble. Television pictures cannot prove if civilians were killed by U.S. bombs or insurgents. The Pentagon says it's as careful as it can be.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't think there's ever going to conflict that the likes of Afghanistan or Iraq where there has been as much respect for avoiding collateral damage and avoiding the killing of innocent people, as in those two conflicts.

STARR: The U.S. knows angry Iraqis believe U.S. troops are not careful.

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D) MICHIGAN: I think there's a large number of Iraqis, probably the majority, which hate those air strikes because innocents are killed and because it is not the kind of a fine tool that can just get the bad guys.

STARR: The U.S. military does not target Iraqi civilians, but knows they get caught in the cross fire, especially as the fighting has shifted to crowded, urban areas. Mosques, schools and hospitals are off-limits. Precision weapons and good intelligence are supposed to reduce the risk of civilians accidentally being killed. But a senior U.S. military official in Baghdad says, if the U.S. thought Zarqawi and an Iraqi family were in the same house, a decision would be made on whether or not to strike, depending on the circumstances and the level of collateral damage that could be expected. Critics wonder, are the strict rules slipping?

JOE STORK, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I think probably in the situation where the pressures are on to sort of deliver, in terms of liberate these towns, get these towns out of the hands of insurgents? Yeah. There's likely to be a greater willingness to take risks.

STARR: During recent fighting in Samarra, the Iraqi ministry of health reported 20 civilians dead. Over 700 Iraqi security forces have been killed by insurgents since January. All of this may go to only show that no matter who killed them, it is Iraqi men, women and children that are paying a heavy price. Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

BROWN: And on NEWSNIGHT tonight, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. They say. Unless it involves political campaigning and your state is, to coin a phrase, a battleground. We'll look at the state of play in a rapidly-changing state.

And later, home grown holy warriors. Born and raised in Canada. A break first from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Few more campaign notes tonight, 21 days until the election. And the electoral map, according to our pollsters looks a bit like this. Well it actually looks exactly like this. The president enjoys a lead, 301 electoral votes to 237, over Senator Kerry, by our estimates. 270 is the magic number. Other tallies showing a tighter race than that. And some of the counting is complicated in states like Maine, which are not winner take all and Colorado, which might not be winner take all come the third of November. They have an initiative in Colorado on that. All of that besides, our map only shows red and blue and in fact the map itself is filled with lighter shades, representing the states barely in one column or another, or up for grabs entirely. By that measure, the state of Oregon is peal blue, along with Ohio and Pennsylvania. Nevada on the other hand, is not so much red, as it is pink. Here CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over: There's always been something larger than life about Nevada, from the Hoover Dam, the depression-era public works marvel that tamed the Colorado River, to the Las Vegas strip, whose promise of life's earthier pleasures draws some 35 million visitors a year. And many of those visitors come to stay in this low tax, warm weather state. Since 1960, Nevada has been the fastest-growing state in the union.

TOM WARLEY, DEVELOPER: On average, there's five to 7,000 people per month moving into the city. The building boom has not slowed down. Each year, we set a new record for number of new homes sold.

GREENFIELD: But for all of its glitz and its growth, Nevada is still one of the least populous states in the nation, with a mere 5 electoral votes. But to look at the way the candidates are traveling and the way the campaigns are spending money, you would think that Nevada was a combination of Ohio and Florida.

In one week alone in September, all four candidates passed through Nevada. And so much advertising money is pouring in, that Reno, the biggest little city in the world, has become one of the top three media markets for both campaigns.

ERIN NEFF, LAS VEGAS REVIEW JOURNAL: It's fantastic. It's a kick. Just as I'm trying to plan coverage of George Bush's visit, you know, we hear Kerry's coming the day before.

GREENFIELD: For Erin Neff, who covers politics in the Las Vegas Review Journal, the attraction is explained by the tightness of the vote, here and nationally four years ago.

NEFF: Bush won by 3 1/2 percent here in Nevada. And they say, but for states like New Hampshire, but for these small states, it could have gone to Gore in 2000 and they think that five measly votes can make a difference. GREENFIELD: For both campaigns, the food of new (AUDIO GAP) and a challenge, especially given the high interest in the election.

CHRIS CARR, NEVADA BUSH CHENEY 2004: I've worked in this state since 1992 and I've never seen as many volunteers. A lot of the volunteers I've never seen before.

JON SUMMERS, NEVADA DEMOCRATIC PARTY: We know as a battleground state, every single vote in this election is going to count.

GREENFIELD: For Democrats a prize target of opportunity is the Hispanic vote, roughly 20 percent of the population, but a group that has traditionally failed to turn out on Election Day. The other wild card says UNLV professor Hal Rothman is Yucca Mountain. Designated by President Bush as the permanent repository for nuclear waste, over enormous local opposition.

HAL ROTHMAN, UNIVERSITY OF NEVADA LAS VEGAS: The real beef with George Bush is that George Bush came to Nevada in 2000 and said that he would make this decision on sound science and then simply didn't.

GREENFIELD: But the president has a lot of cards to play, a booming economy, a strong anti-government, leave us alone tradition, and a concern with terrorism -- Vegas was seen as a prime target -- that tilts them toward Bush. Polls say the president now has a narrow lead. And both candidates know that if Bush wins every state he won last time, he'll win again. So, any state where Bush won narrowly in 2000 is a high target for the Kerry campaign, however small that state may be. The candidates will be spending time and money here like high rollers on a holiday weekend. Jeff Greenfield, CNN, Las Vegas, Nevada.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: One other item. It's a bit hard to know precisely what to make of this. Senator Mark Dayton, a Democratic senator from the state of Minnesota, closed his Washington office today and plans to keep it shut until after the election. I would not bring my two sons to Capitol Hill between now and then, he said. The announcement was apparently influenced by top secret briefing the Senate majority leader gave two weeks ago. Senator Dayton provided no details about what was discussed. He did release a statement saying, in part, he's closing up shop as an extreme but necessary precaution to save lives and the safety of his staff. When contacted today, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, told CNN there's no new information, no new threat, pertaining to Congress. And members have not been advised to close their offices.

Coming up on the program still -- we're staying on politics for a bit. What do women want? That question again. One that both candidates are hoping to answer if differently.

And while the question and answer won't be there, you can bet seeing the candidates in morning papers. Yes you can. I've seen them.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've devoted a good deal of the discussion tonight on some of the factors driving the race for the White House this year. We turn now to who votes and how many bother to turn out. The subject came up tonight with the first lady, Laura bush, on "LARRY KING LIVE."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, HOST: Does it annoy you, Laura, that 50 percent will probably not vote?

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: Yes. Sure. I think that's really terrible, and especially when we look at countries like Afghanistan, who have just had their first free presidential election in their entire history. And you know, I hope Americans don't take our right to vote for granted so much that they don't bother to make it to the polls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A bit more now. Sigmund Freud was famous for asking, What do women want? No fool he. He never pretended to have the true answer. But fools rush in where Austrian cigar smokers fear to tread, giving rise to a cottage industry trying to divine what women want this year in a president. Soccer moms, as you know, are out. Security moms are said to be in. Or are they really?

Here to talk about it, novelist Erica Jong, who writes one best- seller after another, and Myrna Blyth, the author an editor and contributor to "National Review" on line. It's good to see you both.

Let's see if we do this without sort of campaigning for one or the other for a while. Let's see how we do. We know, actually, election after election, that women tend to make up their minds later in the campaign. Why do you think that is?

MYRNA BLYTH, ``NATIONAL REVIEW'' ONLINE: I think they want to see all the opinions. And it depends. I mean, I think, like most of the country, it's quite divided at this moment. And I think a lot of women have made up their minds already. I think, you know, the red states and blue states reflect both women and men in those states.

BROWN: I was -- any time we draw stereotypes, I mean, it always makes me nervous, but there is -- I mean, the gender gap is not a made-up thing. It's an actual thing.

BLYTH: But much exaggerated by media. You know, the gender gap which we've heard about for 20 years -- there are greater gaps, and there always have been, between religious and non-religious people.

BROWN: Race.

BLYTH: ... married, single...

BROWN: Sure. BLYTH: ... than between men and women. You know, women are many different kinds of voters.

BROWN: Do you think that the soccer moms have become the security moms? Or is that a little too cute and a little too glib?

ERICA JONG, AUTHOR: I think the whole idea of security moms is a myth made up by Karl Rove. I actually think that there's no such thing as security moms, but I think that Karl Rove, Bush's brain, is very, very smart. Actually, I think most women in this country are concerned with their children. They're concerned with reproductive health and choice. They're concerned with the government not being in their bedroom and not telling their doctors what they may or may not do.

BROWN: Well, but part of being concerned about your children is being concerned about whether some clown blows up the school that your child goes to.

JONG: Absolutely. But the truth of the matter is that we are in more of danger of a nuclear plant -- I was about to say nuke-u-lar, like the president -- of a nuclear plant blowing in New Jersey because of the relaxed standards the Bush administration has allowed for the nuclear plants right across the river from New York.

BLYTH: Well...

JONG: And -- may I finish?

BLYTH: Sure.

JONG: We are more in danger of our own fumbles because of what's in our air. We are more in danger from this administration than we will ever be from another 9/11. That's the sad truth.

BROWN: All right.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I agree. So much...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So much for my attempt to keep this nonpartisan.

(CROSSTALK)

JONG: My issue is choice.

BROWN: I understand that.

BLYTH: Well, first of all...

JONG: And I care very much about choice.

BROWN: Let me come -- we'll come back to that. BLYTH: Well, there clearly are security moms today. I do think women were very affected, as all Americans were, by 9/11. I mean, I do know that women do still think about that morning, when they weren't sure which school they should go to first to pick up children. I know my own son was in the capitol that day. He's an adult man, but he's my son. And let me tell you, until the fourth plane went down, that's a morning I will never forget, and neither will I forget that hour of torment.

JONG: But that doesn't mean, Myrna...

BLYTH: Also...

JONG: ... that we should be...

BROWN: All right, let her...

JONG: ... controlled by fear.

BLYTH: Also...

JONG: Control by fear can be even more dangerous.

BROWN: Let her finish.

JONG: OK.

BLYTH: You know, there are a lot of issues. It isn't only security, but security is a great, meaningful -- and a couple of weeks ago, as we saw earlier, the school in Russia. Women in our country are thinking about that and are making decisions about security.

BROWN: There was a piece in "The Times" today that just -- to kind of -- in a sentence or two, said that women will be uncomfortable -- are uncomfortable with the fact that the president -- because they're uncomfortable when men don't -- cannot admit a mistake and apologize for it and move on in the way that the British seem to demand it of -- or at least, the Labour Party seemed to demand it of Tony Blair. Do you think that there's anything to that at all?

BLYTH: Well, I think the women who support the president don't think he has anything to apologize for, so I think that's just a generalization. All women want all men to apologize? Well, the women in this election who are supporting the president, you know, like that he's strong, resolute, has a clear vision of what he wants. So they don't expect an apology for him.

JONG: And I don't...

BLYTH: From him.

JONG: I don't think that never saying your sorry is strength. I think never saying you're sorry is extreme weakness. It's the weakness of a person with great rigidity. It's a weakness of a person who cannot say, Maybe there were no weapons of mass destruction, but here's why I'm giving you the fifth different justification for... BROWN: The one -- one...

JONG: ... for the war.

BROWN: One woman's...

JONG: This is a sign of weakness to me.

BROWN: One woman's resolve is a another woman's rigidity, in a sense, don't you think?

JONG: Well, to me, I can't imagine -- I've been married four times, and I can't imagine being with a man who could never say, I made a mistake. And I have to say that the fact that the president cannot admit to having made a mistake I find very fearsome because all thinking people do make mistakes. The most brilliant people on the planet make mistakes and reconsider their actions. And if he can't reconsider his actions, then he is a very dangerous man indeed.

But my issue -- and I don't have only one issue as a woman voter. As the mother of daughters, a stepdaughter and a biological daughter, I really feel that we are going backwards on women's health.

BROWN: OK. Can we...

JONG: And that is deeply troubling to me.

BLYTH: Interestingly, the choice issue -- and I can understand Erica's feelings about this. But in this election, all the surveys show that only 9 percent of women are going to consider either the pro-life or pro-choice position when they vote, only 3 percent who are pro-choice. It hasn't been a major issue. And Senator Kerry and his wife have not wanted to bring it up much, as well.

JONG: But it should be a major issue.

BROWN: Well -- well, a different subject for a different conversation.

JONG: OK.

BROWN: OK? I like that conversation.

JONG: I think, Aaron, that women are the collateral damage of political campaigns.

BROWN: Let's leave it at that.

JONG: I think we are left...

BROWN: Please.

JONG: OK.

BROWN: Let's leave -- let me leave it at that.

JONG: And our bodies are footballs.

BROWN: You can't say OK and then keep going!

(LAUGHTER)

JONG: Well, I can.

BROWN: Yes, I guess you can. Thank you. Nice to see you both.

BLYTH: Thank you, Aaron.

JONG: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Come back. Thank you.

Still to come on the program, the war on terror north of the border and how Canada chooses to fight it. Also later, revisiting Beslan 40 days after the attack there. It's still heartbreak. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight we return to Canada and its fight against terror. Two years ago today, Islamic terrorists blew up two nightclubs in Bali packed with Western tourists. Two hundred and two people died that day, most of them Australians. One of the men who confessed to help scouting locations for the attacks traces his roots halfway around the globe, traces them to Canada, which brings us to tonight's report from CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They came to Canada to a new life, then gave it up, instead, choosing holy war against the West.

MARTIN RUDNER, CANADIAN SECURITY EXPERT: Well, this is, of course, extremely disconcerting for Canada, for Canadians. Not only that it happened but that the recruitment took place in this country of young Canadians educated in Canadian schools.

FEYERICK: Canadian officials say many are disciples of Osama bin Laden. Of the 25 known Canadian terror suspects, 4 have direct links to major attacks, including an alleged 9/11 recruiter, a suspected trainer for the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in East Africa, a confessed scout for the Bali disco bombings, and a man leaving Canada, caught with a trunkload of explosives meant for a millennium attack on Los Angeles airport. At least three Canadians caught in Afghanistan are now in Guantanamo.

REID MORDEN, FORMER DIR., CANADIAN SEC. INTELL. SERVICE: The people who come more recently tend to have a more radical view of things and perhaps bring with them some of the conflicts they left behind in their homelands.

FEYERICK (on camera): Muslims with ties to jihad began arriving in Canada more than a dozen years ago, security officials first seeing Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians. Then came Egyptians, followed in the late '90s by a small group who had trained in Afghanistan...

(voice-over): ... a wave that caught Canadians by surprise.

RUDNER: We were naive. We did not read their text. We did not assess their intentions. After 9/11, it became quite clear what their intentions were, that this was a sanctuary for global jihad.

FEYERICK: The problem may be growing. A recent study by the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations finds in Canada and elsewhere, new Saudi-funded Islamic centers are preaching a kind of Islam that encourages violence against the West, helping to create the next generation of terrorists. But a lawyer who defends several Muslims in Canadian custody says some of the immigrants who fought against communists in Afghanistan are being targeted for the very lives they tried to leave behind.

BARBARA JACKMAN, IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEE LAWYER: They weren't terrorists at that time, but now that past history is being used against people.

FEYERICK: In a country known for giving immigrants fresh starts, clerics say Muslims are feeling the heat.

IMAM ALY HINDY, SALAHEDDIN ISLAMIC CENTER: This is what we're suffering from. People are afraid to donate money. People are afraid to even transfer money. People are afraid to travel.

FEYERICK: One fear created by another, as Canadians struggle to come to terms with home-grown Islamic militancy without undermining the country's strong liberal traditions. Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Toronto.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, 40 days later, we return to Beslan. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More than a month ago, the world watched in horror as the terror in Beslan, Russia, unfolded. News cycles have a way of compressing time, but grief, of course, runs on its own clock. And in Beslan, time stands still. Here's CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They walk the school corridors, study the bullet holes in the walls, find notebooks left behind from that awful day 40 days ago. "We came here because we thought we could still see them," Marina tells me. "We don't believe that they died. We think they're still here." Twelve-year-old David recalls one particular group of victims. He manages only six words. "The Tambayos (ph)," he says, "one family, six people." At the cemetery, a ceremony marks the end of 40 days of mourning. Most people here are Orthodox Christians who believe the soul rises to heaven on the 40th day.

(on camera): In a spiritual sense, the people of Beslan are saying good-bye to more than 300 people killed in the hostage crisis, more than half of them just children.

(voice-over): There are crosses over most graves, but just a stick at 12-year-old Emma's. Her parents are Muslim. For 2-year-old Christina, a doll still in its packaging.

Muslim rebels have claimed responsibility for the Beslan attack. Amidst calls for revenge, many of the mothers here struggle to understand the killers. "How could you raise your hand against children?" she asks a crowd around her daughter's grave. "Those killers weren't brought up on their mother's milk, they were brought up on bombs."

After 40 days, Beslan is still in shock. Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Beslan, Russia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: "Morning Papers" coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check "Morning Papers" around the country, around the world. The debate's on most of the front pages, and it's kind of interesting to see how they headline it.

The International Herald Tribune" starts it off, as it does -- by the way, thanks for all of you who called to ask about "The New York Times" problem. "Candidates tune up for last debate of close race," very straight ahead lead there. Beslan also on the front page of "The International Herald Tribune." If you're overseas, you get that. Did I just -- I thought I heard the chimes there for a second. OK.

"The Christian Science Monitor" -- "Final debate moves closer to home. First two debates focused on Iraq and war on terror. Tonight, domestic issues take center stage." They certainly will in Tempe.

Here's a headline. Think about this. "Executing juveniles: Is it cruel?" Well, yes. I mean, really -- I mean, come on.

"Bush seeks to avoid a shutout," is the way "The Washington Times" headlines the debate. "Domestic issues focus," an acknowledgment by "The times" that the president has lost the first two, which I think is sort of interesting.

Forget that one.

"The Boston Herald" -- it's my segment, I can do it. "Troops let guard down," is the lead. "Massachusetts National Guard facing recruiting crisis." I'm not surprised. And then the baseball story, the Red Sox and the Yankees going at it. It's, like, 8-5 or something in the seventh inning, unless you're watching the replay, in which case, the game is, of course, over. And as you know the Red Sox are the official team of this program, unless you live in New York, in which case we love the Yankees.

"Philadelphia Inquirer" -- "Round three: Look for the liberal label." I really like this newspaper, "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

"The San Francisco Examiner," which is the other paper in San Francisco. We're glad to have them with us. I met with publisher when we were out there. He's a nice man. "Mayor declares flu vaccine emergency" is their headline. They give this paper away. You can't get a fairer price than free, can you?'

The weather tomorrow in Chicago -- thank you, I heard that -- "Coat check" is the -- it's going to be chilly. It's been chilly here. We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The debate tomorrow at 9:00. We'll see you at midnight. Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired October 12, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Well, good evening, again. You're looking at one happy guy tonight, happy and as it turns out, well-fed, having enjoyed one of the rare perks of my life, a guest appearance on the "Iron Chef" program on the Food network. The food was first-rate, if a little odd in spots. And so, too, was the hospitality. First-rate, that is. Alton Brown, the host of the program, couldn't have been nicer and now would be a good time to remind everyone that brining your turkey really does keep it from drying out.
The "Iron Chef" in case you haven't seen it, involves two chefs, one theme ingredient and an hour to create a gourmet meal. The clock ticks, the chefs cook, then the judges pick a winner. Food as sport and if you're so inclined, you can draw any number of parallels between that and the campaign and wonder if, in turning either one into sport, something essential is lost. But we're not so inclined tonight. Not really. We're just a little bit full. "The whip" begins out west on the eve of the final presidential debates. CNN's Candy Crowley traveling with the Kerry campaign, gets the nod to start us off with a headline, Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, let me move from the cooking analogy to the sporting analogy, going into tomorrow night's debate. The Kerry team believes they are now two wins to George Bush's zero. They're looking for a clean sweep tomorrow night.

BROWN: Well, that's something to chew on. Thank you, Candy. We'll get back to you at the top tonight.

For the president, a different set of expectations and not surprisingly, a different message. So we turn to our senior White House correspondent, John King for the headline. John?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a lot of pressure on the president, obviously, after the first two debates. But Mr. Bush said today he is certain tomorrow's debate will be a whole lot of fun. He also made clear he'll try to paint the senator from Massachusetts as a big-spending liberal. Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. Next, the Pentagon and what's being done or at least being tried to save Americans and others being taken hostage in Iraq. Jamie McIntyre with the watch and the headline.

JAMIE McINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, CNN has learned that the U.S. tried not once, but twice to rescue hostages in Iraq before they were beheaded. The missions, however, failed because the intelligence was either wrong or out-of-date.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

And finally, Baghdad in efforts to tighten the screws on Fallujah. CNN's Brent Sadler, again, with us tonight. And Brent, a headline.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, U.S.-backed Iraqi forces target Sunni Muslim insurgents in their hideouts while efforts to partially disarm a Shia militia in a Baghdad city slum failed to gain any real momentum.

BROWN: Brent, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the risks of fighting the insurgency in Iraq with smart bombs from above. Is the desire to minimize American casualties coming at too high a price in Iraqi lives? Will it create simply another generation of insurgents?

Also tonight, the people in Beslan struggling to come to terms with the terrorist massacre there, 40 days since that day. Is there any hope in sight for them?

And later -- a welcome break, we hope, "morning papers" will end the hour. All that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight on the campaign, three weeks to go, the maneuvering fully under way, each campaign shifting resources from states either in the bag or out of reach entirely to those still in play. But as important as the tactics may be, nothing much matters until and unless the candidates get through one more debate, tomorrow night in Tempe. So, two reports tonight, beginning with CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY (voice-over): John Kerry opted for another laid back, pre-debate down day in New Mexico amid great expectations inside the campaign.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John Kerry's going to win that debate tomorrow and one of the reasons he's going to win is because George Bush is out of touch.

CROWLEY: Kerry's strategists believe they occupy the cat bird seat, moving up in the polls, about to face the president in a forum the president does not excel in, discussing issues the senator believes favor him.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For the last four years, one man has stood between America and lower cost prescription drugs -- George Bush. As president, I'll fight to allow Americans to import lower-cost prescription drugs from Canada.

CROWLEY: In advance of Wednesday's debate on domestic issues, the Kerry campaign has been softening up the competition, taking practice swings on prescription drugs, energy costs and stem cell research. The issue was re-elevated into the headlines with Sunday's death of Christopher Reeve, a personal tragedy, mixing uneasily with national politics.

EDWARDS: If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk, get up out of that wheelchair and walk again.

CROWLEY: Kerry's strategist say only the far right would find anything offensive about Edwards' words. But some Democrats outside the campaign say Kerry and company need to be careful how they use the Reeve name. Kerry was scheduled to spend debate eve in the Phoenix area. But when the sun came out in New Mexico, he changed his plans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: But where John Kerry rests his head on debate eve will not matter nearly so much as where he goes on the day after the debates. With those over, it now turns into the ground game. Where will they spend the candidate's time? And where will they spend their resources, which are dwindling as rapidly on both sides as the calendar days are. Aaron.

BROWN: In that regard, the "Chicago Tribune" tomorrow morning will publish a poll giving Kerry a slight lead in three critical states -- Ohio, Minnesota, Wisconsin and slightly behind in Iowa, all within the margin, but what the "Tribune" finds interesting about this is that in all of those states, the issues most on the voters' minds are the domestic issues -- jobs and health care, not terror and Iraq which, arguably, plays to the Kerry side.

CROWLEY: Well, arguably. But a lot of the criticism and a lot of the commentary that came out of the second debate, Aaron, they're very well aware of this in the Kerry campaign, is that Kerry was strongest on the Iraq debate and that George Bush was better when it got to the domestic issues. Though they take nothing for granted, they expect their candidate to be very strong tomorrow. But they have always known that in those battleground states, some of them that you mentioned, others that are out there like West Virginia, that they do believe and have always believed, those are domestic issue states and what they need to do is begin to reach out to those swing voters, which they have been doing. As one of the aides said to me recently, you know, from here on out this is focused all on the middle-class and their problems.

BROWN: Candy, thank you. We'll talk tomorrow night, I am sure, from Tempe. I think one of those reporters who said that last week was this one.

Just as the candidates have started narrowing the geographical scope of their efforts, they have also cut back rhetorically, settling on a message or two they believe will resonate. Reporting on that side of the story with the president tonight, CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: In Colorado Springs three weeks to Election Day, testing themes for a final debate dedicated to domestic issues.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As much as he's try to obscure it, on issue after issue, my opponent has showed why he's earned his ranking as the most liberal member of the United States Senate.

KING: Hours later in Arizona, Mr. Bush said he's eager to use the last giant audience of the campaign to draw a sharp philosophical contrast and paint Senator Kerry as a big spender who would have to raise taxes to pay for all his promises.

BUSH: You're not going to have fiscal sanity if John Kerry is the president.

KING: Mr. Bush mocked Senator Kerry's claim in the last debate that his health care plan would not give the government more control.

BUSH: I can barely contain myself. Of course, the government has something to do with his plan. It's the cornerstone of his plan. It's the crux of his health care policy to expand the Federal government.

KING: In the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, Senator Kerry has a giant edge on health care. The economy is more of a tossup. And the president has a slight edge on taxes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bush is especially vulnerable in the battleground states on the economy. The economy is the number one issue in the polls. Not Iraq. Not homeland security. The states that in play are states that have high unemployment.

KING: Polls judge Senator Kerry the winner of the first two debates. Republicans say a closer look at the electoral map still suggests the slight Bush advantage, but concedes the president needs a strong showing Wednesday night.

JOHN McHENRY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Does he have some work to do, to sort of seal the deal and win on November 2? Sure. The same could be said for Senator Kerry. All things considered, I don't know that you'd say either has much of an advantage at this point.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: It seems a bid odd coming from an administration in power for some 45 months now but one reason the Bush team says Senator Kerry has that big edge on health care and some of the domestic issues is that because in their view, with all the focus on terrorism and war, many viewers don't now about, many voters don't know much about the president's domestic proposals. In that regard Aaron, the Bush team thinks the debate can only help.

BROWN: Just two observations and you'll run with them in whatever direction you want. One is I find it interesting that the president is still campaigning in Colorado, where he won easily four years ago. And secondly, when you watch him on the stump, how much more comfortable he looks than he looks in the debates.

KING: It is remarkable how much better and more comfortable he is as a campaigner than he is in the debates. He was better in the town hall debate than in the first debate and that is a Republican worry. We're back to the first format in this debate and they're hoping the president does not turn in a repeat of his first performance. Certainly, the president is a much better campaigner. As one aide put it a long time ago at the beginning of the debates, they want to check this box and get the president out back out on the road. Why Colorado, that is one -- Republicans believe they are playing in more states Al Gore won last time and that's a disadvantage for Kerry. But Colorado was one that is very tight to their surprise, in part because of an influx of Latino voters.

BROWN: John, thank you and we'll talk with you tomorrow night after the debate, as well. John King, our senior White House correspondent, traveling with the president.

On to Iraq, which remains a key backdrop for the presidential debate in the United States, if not specifically the questions tomorrow. We have several reports tonight, beginning with new information about a U.S. military effort to rescue several western hostages. Efforts that were unsuccessful, the hostages beheaded. Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

McINTYRE: Back in September, shortly after Americans Eugene Armstrong and Jack Hensley and Briton Kenneth Bigley were kidnapped from their home in Baghdad, the U.S. launched a military operation to rescue them. In fact, there were two attempts, both in Baghdad, according to an official with direct knowledge of the operations. The first came in mid-September, when all of the hostages were believed to still be alive. But CNN has been told it failed because when the rescue team reached the location, no one was there.

It's not clear if the hostages had been moved or whether the intelligence was flawed and they were never there. After Eugene Armstrong was beheaded a few days later, a second rescue mission was also launched the official says. Again, the result was the same. No one was at the targeted location. The failed rescue attempts have not been publicly acknowledged. But at the time, U.S. military officials said everything possible was being done to free the hostages, either by rescuing them or arranging for their release.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

McINTYRE: And in this case, all three hostages were eventually murdered. While the rescue attempts failed it wasn't for lack of trying. As one U.S. official put it, a lot of people had a lot of sleepless nights trying to find them. Aaron?

BROWN: I'll bet they did. Does it -- do we extrapolate out from this the quality or the lack of quality, generally speaking, of the American intelligence in Iraq?

McINTYRE: Clearly, the intelligence was lacking in this case. Either it wasn't timely enough or it was wrong entirely. According to sources who tell us what happened in these operations, they went there, they found evidence that somebody was at the locations where they went. But they're still not sure if the hostages were ever actually there and of course the best operation can't succeed if it's based on flawed intelligence. But the point, I think a lot of the officials are trying to make was that the U.S. wasn't just sitting around waiting for the hostages to being released. They were actively doing everything they possibly could to try to find them and try to rescue them.

BROWN: Thank you, Jamie. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.

Tonight, in Iraq, the fight to reclaim control from the insurgents escalates. U.S. and Iraqi troops now working against two deadlines. The first fast approaching, Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, begins this weekend. And there is concern it could inspire a wave of attacks. It did a year ago.

Beyond that of course, there's the January deadline for elections in the country, making Iraq stable enough for those elections to go forward as planned, remains the goal. All of that is a long-winded way of saying something quite simple -- it was another bloody day in Iraq. Here's CNN's Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER (voice-over): U.S.-led military action on multiple fronts in Iraq. American warplanes hit two suspected terror targets in Fallujah, in the early hours of Tuesday destroying a safe house and a planning center used by foreign fighters loyal to Abu Musab al Zarqawi according to U.S. officials. Zarqawi associates were targeted it's claimed, while planning more suicide bombings and kidnappings. Escalating anti-insurgent operations in Ramadi, some 60 miles west of Baghdad, where Iraqi troops, backed up by U.S. Marines, launched a series of raids on seven mosques in the city. Holy sites are normally afforded protected status in the fighting. But in Ramadi, U.S. officials say these mosques were used for insurgent activity, including weapons storage, recruitment for fighters and harboring terrorists.

But in Sadr city, close to the capital, U.S. forces have put a hold on military action, pending the outcome of a voluntary surrender of weapons, by Mehdi army fighters which began yesterday. But progress is slow. No other encouraging signs, either, say U.S. commanders. Militants, they say, have not removed hundreds of improvised bombs that line some of Sadr city's streets, with the density of mine field.

COL. ABE ABRAMS, 1ST CAV DIV US ARMY: Over a 1.5 kilometer stretch of road, had over 120 improvised explosive devices.

SADLER: Every bomb, bullet and machine gun is being carefully counted, day by day. But so far, say U.S. military officials, the tally is less than convincing. By Saturday, though, come what may with the weapons count, says the U.S. military, security sweeps in this Shia slum neighborhood will resume to root out weapons for insurgents. But if the militia really disarms and relinquishes thousands of armaments, a less-intense military action is expected.

ABRAMS: If the numbers are not very high, then we'll have a requirement to broaden our search into many other places. And it will be anything but surgical or cursory.

SADLER: A clear warning that by week's end, the Mehdi army faces renewed offensive military action by U.S.-backed Iraqi forces, unless the militia lays down its huge arsenal of weapons between now and then.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER: In most cases, those weapons are being handed in in exchange for cash. A machine gun, for example, fetches about $1,000 U.S. Now, the U.S. military tried a similar scheme in May of this year. To give you some idea of the scale of weaponry involved, that operation just five months ago collected enough weapons to equip an entire U.S. Army division of troops, 10,000 strong. Five months later, Sadr City, Aaron, is still awash with weapons tonight.

BROWN: Well, that will keep people awake tonight. Thanks a lot. One quick question -- is there -- in this operation in Ramadi and to a certain extent in Sadr City, is there evidence that the Iraqis themselves are fighting better than they have been, let's say, two or three months ago?

SADLER: In terms of Sadr City, no fighting for the past 48 hours but expect that to change, one way or the other, either very dramatically or less dramatically at the weekend. In terms of how they're operating, very similar to what they've been doing for many months now, hit and run. As far as insurgents in other areas are concerned, pretty much more or less the same. Hiding out, coming into cities --

BROWN: I didn't ask the question very elegantly. Let me try it again. I'm actually interested in how the Iraqi army and the Iraqi National Guard, the Iraqi civil defense, all of these various government forces, are responding. Are they carrying their load these days?

SADLER: I wouldn't say carrying their load. But I spoke to U.S. commanders today in the field and they're certainly beginning to take notice that Iraqi guardsmen are holding the line. They're killing people. And they're beginning to take serious responsibility in combat operations.

BROWN: Brent, thank you, my apologies for not being clearer there. Brent Sadler in Baghdad.

There are, where Iraq is concerned, any war these days, really two central, indisputable facts -- people die and some of them are innocent. We can pretend otherwise. But that's all it is. And you know it. And the Pentagon knows it. And you can be certain the Iraqis know it. So while smart weapons no doubt reduce the danger to innocence, reduction is not elimination. And as the battlefield shrinks and it is shrinking in Iraq, the danger to the innocents grows. From the Pentagon, here's CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A house in Fallujah bombed by U.S. warplanes. The target -- terrorist loyal to Abu Musab al Zarqawi. An official statement says quote, intelligence indicated there were no innocent civilians at the terrorist safe house, but the body of a child is pulled from the rubble. Television pictures cannot prove if civilians were killed by U.S. bombs or insurgents. The Pentagon says it's as careful as it can be.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't think there's ever going to conflict that the likes of Afghanistan or Iraq where there has been as much respect for avoiding collateral damage and avoiding the killing of innocent people, as in those two conflicts.

STARR: The U.S. knows angry Iraqis believe U.S. troops are not careful.

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D) MICHIGAN: I think there's a large number of Iraqis, probably the majority, which hate those air strikes because innocents are killed and because it is not the kind of a fine tool that can just get the bad guys.

STARR: The U.S. military does not target Iraqi civilians, but knows they get caught in the cross fire, especially as the fighting has shifted to crowded, urban areas. Mosques, schools and hospitals are off-limits. Precision weapons and good intelligence are supposed to reduce the risk of civilians accidentally being killed. But a senior U.S. military official in Baghdad says, if the U.S. thought Zarqawi and an Iraqi family were in the same house, a decision would be made on whether or not to strike, depending on the circumstances and the level of collateral damage that could be expected. Critics wonder, are the strict rules slipping?

JOE STORK, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I think probably in the situation where the pressures are on to sort of deliver, in terms of liberate these towns, get these towns out of the hands of insurgents? Yeah. There's likely to be a greater willingness to take risks.

STARR: During recent fighting in Samarra, the Iraqi ministry of health reported 20 civilians dead. Over 700 Iraqi security forces have been killed by insurgents since January. All of this may go to only show that no matter who killed them, it is Iraqi men, women and children that are paying a heavy price. Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

BROWN: And on NEWSNIGHT tonight, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. They say. Unless it involves political campaigning and your state is, to coin a phrase, a battleground. We'll look at the state of play in a rapidly-changing state.

And later, home grown holy warriors. Born and raised in Canada. A break first from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Few more campaign notes tonight, 21 days until the election. And the electoral map, according to our pollsters looks a bit like this. Well it actually looks exactly like this. The president enjoys a lead, 301 electoral votes to 237, over Senator Kerry, by our estimates. 270 is the magic number. Other tallies showing a tighter race than that. And some of the counting is complicated in states like Maine, which are not winner take all and Colorado, which might not be winner take all come the third of November. They have an initiative in Colorado on that. All of that besides, our map only shows red and blue and in fact the map itself is filled with lighter shades, representing the states barely in one column or another, or up for grabs entirely. By that measure, the state of Oregon is peal blue, along with Ohio and Pennsylvania. Nevada on the other hand, is not so much red, as it is pink. Here CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over: There's always been something larger than life about Nevada, from the Hoover Dam, the depression-era public works marvel that tamed the Colorado River, to the Las Vegas strip, whose promise of life's earthier pleasures draws some 35 million visitors a year. And many of those visitors come to stay in this low tax, warm weather state. Since 1960, Nevada has been the fastest-growing state in the union.

TOM WARLEY, DEVELOPER: On average, there's five to 7,000 people per month moving into the city. The building boom has not slowed down. Each year, we set a new record for number of new homes sold.

GREENFIELD: But for all of its glitz and its growth, Nevada is still one of the least populous states in the nation, with a mere 5 electoral votes. But to look at the way the candidates are traveling and the way the campaigns are spending money, you would think that Nevada was a combination of Ohio and Florida.

In one week alone in September, all four candidates passed through Nevada. And so much advertising money is pouring in, that Reno, the biggest little city in the world, has become one of the top three media markets for both campaigns.

ERIN NEFF, LAS VEGAS REVIEW JOURNAL: It's fantastic. It's a kick. Just as I'm trying to plan coverage of George Bush's visit, you know, we hear Kerry's coming the day before.

GREENFIELD: For Erin Neff, who covers politics in the Las Vegas Review Journal, the attraction is explained by the tightness of the vote, here and nationally four years ago.

NEFF: Bush won by 3 1/2 percent here in Nevada. And they say, but for states like New Hampshire, but for these small states, it could have gone to Gore in 2000 and they think that five measly votes can make a difference. GREENFIELD: For both campaigns, the food of new (AUDIO GAP) and a challenge, especially given the high interest in the election.

CHRIS CARR, NEVADA BUSH CHENEY 2004: I've worked in this state since 1992 and I've never seen as many volunteers. A lot of the volunteers I've never seen before.

JON SUMMERS, NEVADA DEMOCRATIC PARTY: We know as a battleground state, every single vote in this election is going to count.

GREENFIELD: For Democrats a prize target of opportunity is the Hispanic vote, roughly 20 percent of the population, but a group that has traditionally failed to turn out on Election Day. The other wild card says UNLV professor Hal Rothman is Yucca Mountain. Designated by President Bush as the permanent repository for nuclear waste, over enormous local opposition.

HAL ROTHMAN, UNIVERSITY OF NEVADA LAS VEGAS: The real beef with George Bush is that George Bush came to Nevada in 2000 and said that he would make this decision on sound science and then simply didn't.

GREENFIELD: But the president has a lot of cards to play, a booming economy, a strong anti-government, leave us alone tradition, and a concern with terrorism -- Vegas was seen as a prime target -- that tilts them toward Bush. Polls say the president now has a narrow lead. And both candidates know that if Bush wins every state he won last time, he'll win again. So, any state where Bush won narrowly in 2000 is a high target for the Kerry campaign, however small that state may be. The candidates will be spending time and money here like high rollers on a holiday weekend. Jeff Greenfield, CNN, Las Vegas, Nevada.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: One other item. It's a bit hard to know precisely what to make of this. Senator Mark Dayton, a Democratic senator from the state of Minnesota, closed his Washington office today and plans to keep it shut until after the election. I would not bring my two sons to Capitol Hill between now and then, he said. The announcement was apparently influenced by top secret briefing the Senate majority leader gave two weeks ago. Senator Dayton provided no details about what was discussed. He did release a statement saying, in part, he's closing up shop as an extreme but necessary precaution to save lives and the safety of his staff. When contacted today, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, told CNN there's no new information, no new threat, pertaining to Congress. And members have not been advised to close their offices.

Coming up on the program still -- we're staying on politics for a bit. What do women want? That question again. One that both candidates are hoping to answer if differently.

And while the question and answer won't be there, you can bet seeing the candidates in morning papers. Yes you can. I've seen them.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've devoted a good deal of the discussion tonight on some of the factors driving the race for the White House this year. We turn now to who votes and how many bother to turn out. The subject came up tonight with the first lady, Laura bush, on "LARRY KING LIVE."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, HOST: Does it annoy you, Laura, that 50 percent will probably not vote?

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: Yes. Sure. I think that's really terrible, and especially when we look at countries like Afghanistan, who have just had their first free presidential election in their entire history. And you know, I hope Americans don't take our right to vote for granted so much that they don't bother to make it to the polls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A bit more now. Sigmund Freud was famous for asking, What do women want? No fool he. He never pretended to have the true answer. But fools rush in where Austrian cigar smokers fear to tread, giving rise to a cottage industry trying to divine what women want this year in a president. Soccer moms, as you know, are out. Security moms are said to be in. Or are they really?

Here to talk about it, novelist Erica Jong, who writes one best- seller after another, and Myrna Blyth, the author an editor and contributor to "National Review" on line. It's good to see you both.

Let's see if we do this without sort of campaigning for one or the other for a while. Let's see how we do. We know, actually, election after election, that women tend to make up their minds later in the campaign. Why do you think that is?

MYRNA BLYTH, ``NATIONAL REVIEW'' ONLINE: I think they want to see all the opinions. And it depends. I mean, I think, like most of the country, it's quite divided at this moment. And I think a lot of women have made up their minds already. I think, you know, the red states and blue states reflect both women and men in those states.

BROWN: I was -- any time we draw stereotypes, I mean, it always makes me nervous, but there is -- I mean, the gender gap is not a made-up thing. It's an actual thing.

BLYTH: But much exaggerated by media. You know, the gender gap which we've heard about for 20 years -- there are greater gaps, and there always have been, between religious and non-religious people.

BROWN: Race.

BLYTH: ... married, single...

BROWN: Sure. BLYTH: ... than between men and women. You know, women are many different kinds of voters.

BROWN: Do you think that the soccer moms have become the security moms? Or is that a little too cute and a little too glib?

ERICA JONG, AUTHOR: I think the whole idea of security moms is a myth made up by Karl Rove. I actually think that there's no such thing as security moms, but I think that Karl Rove, Bush's brain, is very, very smart. Actually, I think most women in this country are concerned with their children. They're concerned with reproductive health and choice. They're concerned with the government not being in their bedroom and not telling their doctors what they may or may not do.

BROWN: Well, but part of being concerned about your children is being concerned about whether some clown blows up the school that your child goes to.

JONG: Absolutely. But the truth of the matter is that we are in more of danger of a nuclear plant -- I was about to say nuke-u-lar, like the president -- of a nuclear plant blowing in New Jersey because of the relaxed standards the Bush administration has allowed for the nuclear plants right across the river from New York.

BLYTH: Well...

JONG: And -- may I finish?

BLYTH: Sure.

JONG: We are more in danger of our own fumbles because of what's in our air. We are more in danger from this administration than we will ever be from another 9/11. That's the sad truth.

BROWN: All right.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I agree. So much...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So much for my attempt to keep this nonpartisan.

(CROSSTALK)

JONG: My issue is choice.

BROWN: I understand that.

BLYTH: Well, first of all...

JONG: And I care very much about choice.

BROWN: Let me come -- we'll come back to that. BLYTH: Well, there clearly are security moms today. I do think women were very affected, as all Americans were, by 9/11. I mean, I do know that women do still think about that morning, when they weren't sure which school they should go to first to pick up children. I know my own son was in the capitol that day. He's an adult man, but he's my son. And let me tell you, until the fourth plane went down, that's a morning I will never forget, and neither will I forget that hour of torment.

JONG: But that doesn't mean, Myrna...

BLYTH: Also...

JONG: ... that we should be...

BROWN: All right, let her...

JONG: ... controlled by fear.

BLYTH: Also...

JONG: Control by fear can be even more dangerous.

BROWN: Let her finish.

JONG: OK.

BLYTH: You know, there are a lot of issues. It isn't only security, but security is a great, meaningful -- and a couple of weeks ago, as we saw earlier, the school in Russia. Women in our country are thinking about that and are making decisions about security.

BROWN: There was a piece in "The Times" today that just -- to kind of -- in a sentence or two, said that women will be uncomfortable -- are uncomfortable with the fact that the president -- because they're uncomfortable when men don't -- cannot admit a mistake and apologize for it and move on in the way that the British seem to demand it of -- or at least, the Labour Party seemed to demand it of Tony Blair. Do you think that there's anything to that at all?

BLYTH: Well, I think the women who support the president don't think he has anything to apologize for, so I think that's just a generalization. All women want all men to apologize? Well, the women in this election who are supporting the president, you know, like that he's strong, resolute, has a clear vision of what he wants. So they don't expect an apology for him.

JONG: And I don't...

BLYTH: From him.

JONG: I don't think that never saying your sorry is strength. I think never saying you're sorry is extreme weakness. It's the weakness of a person with great rigidity. It's a weakness of a person who cannot say, Maybe there were no weapons of mass destruction, but here's why I'm giving you the fifth different justification for... BROWN: The one -- one...

JONG: ... for the war.

BROWN: One woman's...

JONG: This is a sign of weakness to me.

BROWN: One woman's resolve is a another woman's rigidity, in a sense, don't you think?

JONG: Well, to me, I can't imagine -- I've been married four times, and I can't imagine being with a man who could never say, I made a mistake. And I have to say that the fact that the president cannot admit to having made a mistake I find very fearsome because all thinking people do make mistakes. The most brilliant people on the planet make mistakes and reconsider their actions. And if he can't reconsider his actions, then he is a very dangerous man indeed.

But my issue -- and I don't have only one issue as a woman voter. As the mother of daughters, a stepdaughter and a biological daughter, I really feel that we are going backwards on women's health.

BROWN: OK. Can we...

JONG: And that is deeply troubling to me.

BLYTH: Interestingly, the choice issue -- and I can understand Erica's feelings about this. But in this election, all the surveys show that only 9 percent of women are going to consider either the pro-life or pro-choice position when they vote, only 3 percent who are pro-choice. It hasn't been a major issue. And Senator Kerry and his wife have not wanted to bring it up much, as well.

JONG: But it should be a major issue.

BROWN: Well -- well, a different subject for a different conversation.

JONG: OK.

BROWN: OK? I like that conversation.

JONG: I think, Aaron, that women are the collateral damage of political campaigns.

BROWN: Let's leave it at that.

JONG: I think we are left...

BROWN: Please.

JONG: OK.

BROWN: Let's leave -- let me leave it at that.

JONG: And our bodies are footballs.

BROWN: You can't say OK and then keep going!

(LAUGHTER)

JONG: Well, I can.

BROWN: Yes, I guess you can. Thank you. Nice to see you both.

BLYTH: Thank you, Aaron.

JONG: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Come back. Thank you.

Still to come on the program, the war on terror north of the border and how Canada chooses to fight it. Also later, revisiting Beslan 40 days after the attack there. It's still heartbreak. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight we return to Canada and its fight against terror. Two years ago today, Islamic terrorists blew up two nightclubs in Bali packed with Western tourists. Two hundred and two people died that day, most of them Australians. One of the men who confessed to help scouting locations for the attacks traces his roots halfway around the globe, traces them to Canada, which brings us to tonight's report from CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They came to Canada to a new life, then gave it up, instead, choosing holy war against the West.

MARTIN RUDNER, CANADIAN SECURITY EXPERT: Well, this is, of course, extremely disconcerting for Canada, for Canadians. Not only that it happened but that the recruitment took place in this country of young Canadians educated in Canadian schools.

FEYERICK: Canadian officials say many are disciples of Osama bin Laden. Of the 25 known Canadian terror suspects, 4 have direct links to major attacks, including an alleged 9/11 recruiter, a suspected trainer for the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in East Africa, a confessed scout for the Bali disco bombings, and a man leaving Canada, caught with a trunkload of explosives meant for a millennium attack on Los Angeles airport. At least three Canadians caught in Afghanistan are now in Guantanamo.

REID MORDEN, FORMER DIR., CANADIAN SEC. INTELL. SERVICE: The people who come more recently tend to have a more radical view of things and perhaps bring with them some of the conflicts they left behind in their homelands.

FEYERICK (on camera): Muslims with ties to jihad began arriving in Canada more than a dozen years ago, security officials first seeing Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians. Then came Egyptians, followed in the late '90s by a small group who had trained in Afghanistan...

(voice-over): ... a wave that caught Canadians by surprise.

RUDNER: We were naive. We did not read their text. We did not assess their intentions. After 9/11, it became quite clear what their intentions were, that this was a sanctuary for global jihad.

FEYERICK: The problem may be growing. A recent study by the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations finds in Canada and elsewhere, new Saudi-funded Islamic centers are preaching a kind of Islam that encourages violence against the West, helping to create the next generation of terrorists. But a lawyer who defends several Muslims in Canadian custody says some of the immigrants who fought against communists in Afghanistan are being targeted for the very lives they tried to leave behind.

BARBARA JACKMAN, IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEE LAWYER: They weren't terrorists at that time, but now that past history is being used against people.

FEYERICK: In a country known for giving immigrants fresh starts, clerics say Muslims are feeling the heat.

IMAM ALY HINDY, SALAHEDDIN ISLAMIC CENTER: This is what we're suffering from. People are afraid to donate money. People are afraid to even transfer money. People are afraid to travel.

FEYERICK: One fear created by another, as Canadians struggle to come to terms with home-grown Islamic militancy without undermining the country's strong liberal traditions. Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Toronto.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, 40 days later, we return to Beslan. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More than a month ago, the world watched in horror as the terror in Beslan, Russia, unfolded. News cycles have a way of compressing time, but grief, of course, runs on its own clock. And in Beslan, time stands still. Here's CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They walk the school corridors, study the bullet holes in the walls, find notebooks left behind from that awful day 40 days ago. "We came here because we thought we could still see them," Marina tells me. "We don't believe that they died. We think they're still here." Twelve-year-old David recalls one particular group of victims. He manages only six words. "The Tambayos (ph)," he says, "one family, six people." At the cemetery, a ceremony marks the end of 40 days of mourning. Most people here are Orthodox Christians who believe the soul rises to heaven on the 40th day.

(on camera): In a spiritual sense, the people of Beslan are saying good-bye to more than 300 people killed in the hostage crisis, more than half of them just children.

(voice-over): There are crosses over most graves, but just a stick at 12-year-old Emma's. Her parents are Muslim. For 2-year-old Christina, a doll still in its packaging.

Muslim rebels have claimed responsibility for the Beslan attack. Amidst calls for revenge, many of the mothers here struggle to understand the killers. "How could you raise your hand against children?" she asks a crowd around her daughter's grave. "Those killers weren't brought up on their mother's milk, they were brought up on bombs."

After 40 days, Beslan is still in shock. Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Beslan, Russia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: "Morning Papers" coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check "Morning Papers" around the country, around the world. The debate's on most of the front pages, and it's kind of interesting to see how they headline it.

The International Herald Tribune" starts it off, as it does -- by the way, thanks for all of you who called to ask about "The New York Times" problem. "Candidates tune up for last debate of close race," very straight ahead lead there. Beslan also on the front page of "The International Herald Tribune." If you're overseas, you get that. Did I just -- I thought I heard the chimes there for a second. OK.

"The Christian Science Monitor" -- "Final debate moves closer to home. First two debates focused on Iraq and war on terror. Tonight, domestic issues take center stage." They certainly will in Tempe.

Here's a headline. Think about this. "Executing juveniles: Is it cruel?" Well, yes. I mean, really -- I mean, come on.

"Bush seeks to avoid a shutout," is the way "The Washington Times" headlines the debate. "Domestic issues focus," an acknowledgment by "The times" that the president has lost the first two, which I think is sort of interesting.

Forget that one.

"The Boston Herald" -- it's my segment, I can do it. "Troops let guard down," is the lead. "Massachusetts National Guard facing recruiting crisis." I'm not surprised. And then the baseball story, the Red Sox and the Yankees going at it. It's, like, 8-5 or something in the seventh inning, unless you're watching the replay, in which case, the game is, of course, over. And as you know the Red Sox are the official team of this program, unless you live in New York, in which case we love the Yankees.

"Philadelphia Inquirer" -- "Round three: Look for the liberal label." I really like this newspaper, "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

"The San Francisco Examiner," which is the other paper in San Francisco. We're glad to have them with us. I met with publisher when we were out there. He's a nice man. "Mayor declares flu vaccine emergency" is their headline. They give this paper away. You can't get a fairer price than free, can you?'

The weather tomorrow in Chicago -- thank you, I heard that -- "Coat check" is the -- it's going to be chilly. It's been chilly here. We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The debate tomorrow at 9:00. We'll see you at midnight. Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com