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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Pentagon Contemplates Sending More Troops to Iraq; Iran Announces Decision to Suspend Nuclear Program; The Brawl in Detroit

Aired November 22, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
So, I listened to sports talk radio on the way in to work today. The water cooler conversation of the day is about sports, about the NBA brawl, about fans and players and that sometimes uneasy relationship.

We'll talk a fair amount about that tonight, not because it's the most important story of the day, it clearly isn't, but because what happened the other night in Detroit does tell us some things about some things.

The joy of sport is that it's a diversion. It isn't really life or death. We just pretend that it really matters. Athletes are entertainers. Spectators are simply that, the audience.

There is a line between them and for our money David Stern got it exactly right when he said no matter what that line cannot be crossed. That's what's been coming for a while. Fan behavior has grown worse. Players seem too often rewarded for their outrageousness.

One question we will not be able to answer tonight is this. Is this the end of something, the moment where everyone steps back and looks at how crazy things are or is it simply the beginning of something worse?

The whip, however, begins at the Pentagon with a question long hinted at and perhaps soon to be answered, CNN's Jamie McIntyre on the story, Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, during the presidential campaign some Democrats accused the Bush administration of having a secret plan to send more troops to Iraq after the election. The Pentagon denied it then. They deny it now but nevertheless they're contemplating sending more troops than they had thought if U.S. commanders request them.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

Next the take on Iran's decision to suspend a portion of its nuclear program for a while, CNN's David Ensor with that, David a headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Iranian government says that it has stopped processing materials, raw yellow caked uranium into materials that could be used in bomb making. It says that it has done that as a suspension only.

President Bush says he wants to verify that that's the case and the scene is set for Thursday's meeting in Vienna of the International Atomic Energy Administration where the world is supposed to decide what to do about Iran's nuclear weapons or lack thereof, depending on who you believe.

BROWN: David, thank you.

And finally the brawl in Detroit, CNN's Jonathan Freed with the developments on that today, Jonathan a headline.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Indiana Pacers' leadership expressed regret today but left no doubt that the team is standing behind the suspended players.

BROWN: Jon, thank you, back with you and the rest shortly.

Also in the program tonight that seems heavy on fighting of all varieties.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID STERN, NBA COMMISSIONER: Rather than somehow expressing the misguided notion that receiving the adequate respect, you know, makes you -- makes it necessary for you to place other people at bodily risk, it's not going to be tolerated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: There's a lot to be said about what the commissioner said and did. We'll talk with a sports writer who watched it from court side then ring side. We'll talk money and culture and class and race as well.

And, as always, we'll talk roosters and headlines and morning papers to close out the program, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with the possibility, the growing possibility that more troops will be going to Iraq. For 18 months the president has said more were available just for the asking and for just as long commanders have declined to ask but, from time to time, they've hinted.

If, in fact, this changes, it may be a signal, a signal in the belief that the insurgents are finally on the run or perhaps a recognition they are increasingly on the march. Either way, finding more boots to put on the ground will not be easy or simply.

So, we begin tonight at the Pentagon and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): With victory in Falluja comes the reality that thousands of U.S. soldiers and Marines will likely be tied down there for weeks or even months making sure insurgents don't come back. LT. GEN. JOHN SATTLER, COMMANDING GEN. 1ST MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE: We will not move out too early. We will stay in proximity as close as necessary.

MCINTYRE: Despite the claims of some U.S. commanders and Iraq's interim prime minister, Pentagon officials concede the U.S. has not yet broken the back of the insurgency and with Iraqi elections just over two months away the Pentagon has contingency plans to temporarily boost the number of U.S. troops in Iraq without breaking its pledge to limit U.S. combat tours to one year.

LT. GEN. LANCE SMITH, DEPUTY U.S. CENTRAL COMMANDER: That would not be our intent but I would not say categorically that that would be precluded.

MCINTYRE: There are some 138,000 U.S. troops now in Iraq. No decision has been made but an option to extend some tours from ten months to 12 would boost force levels to 141,000 by January. That number could swell to 145,000 under a new option that would call on several thousand soldiers from the 82nd Airborne on standby in the U.S. or fresh troops held in reserve in Kuwait.

The Pentagon argues victory over the insurgents will come only when Iraqi troops are doing the bulk of the fighting and worries that more Falluja-style victories could produce a backlash.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INST.: There are other reasons to do additional troop numbers. For example, you might want to do more patrolling, which is not necessarily going on the offensive. It's simply trying to restore security in some of these Iraqi cities and towns that are not presently very secure at all.

MCINTYRE: But some critics argue for a much bigger infusion of American reinforcements now. A "New York Times" editorial headlined "Costly Troop Deficit in Iraq" calls for 20,000 to 40,000 more troops and concludes: "the Bush administration has still not learned the lesson of Iraq. Securing the peace takes more, not fewer, soldiers than winning battles."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists that U.S. troop levels in Iraq are set by commanders on the ground but some critics worry that with the U.S. strategy being to keep as few American troops in Iraq as possible the generals may be hesitant to ask for what they really need -- Aaron.

BROWN: Is there an implicit suggestion here that the fact that more troops may very well be needed means also that the training of Iraqi soldiers is falling considerably behind schedule?

MCINTYRE: Well, I don't know how far behind schedule but it's clear that Iraqi troops are not yet able to take over the tasks that the U.S. would like them to take, plus they're being targeted by the insurgents specifically and that's having an effect as well. What the U.S. is talking about here is a modest increase in troops, several thousand, for a short period of time but what's clear is that at this point there are a lot of tradeoffs involved and the U.S. wants those elections to go forward and to have some legitimacy without looking like they're pouring more troops into Iraq and becoming even more of an occupying power.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon tonight.

Before moving on, from Iraq a quick reminder of the cost, at least 101 American troops have died so far this month making it the second deadliest month of the war. The day played out one attack after another from Basra to Baghdad to Mosul in the north.

Insurgents in Basra blew up an oil pipeline. In central Baghdad, a rocket hit a residential neighborhood. Authorities believe it was aimed at a government building but missed the target. And, in the western part of Baghdad, insurgents set off a roadside bomb as an American convoy drove past, no information yet on casualties there.

In Falluja, a grim discovery today, a cage possibly used by terrorist kidnappers, the kidnappers of Kenneth Bigley, was found. Mr. Bigley, you'll remember, was the British citizen who was beheaded some weeks back.

And, in Mosul, assassins took the life of a Sunni political leader. Three men gunned him down, motives for the killing unknown, which is hardly unusual in Iraq these days.

Iran now, President Reagan had a favorite saying when dealing with the Soviets, "Trust but verify." For President Bush and Iran it's more like don't trust and can't quite verify. Today, Iran took steps it says to reassure the world it does not have nuclear weapons.

The world has yet to speak but today the president did, our National Security Correspondent CNN's David Ensor now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): In Egypt, Iran's foreign minister told CNN Tehran has now stopped converting raw uranium, yellow cake, into materials used in the production of bomb grade uranium as promised to European governments but that it is only a suspension.

KAMAL KHARAZZI, IRAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The facility in Isfahan is capable to produce but now it is in suspension.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So it is now suspended?

KHARAZZI: Yes.

ENSOR: International Atomic Energy Agency officials say inspectors are on the ground in Iran to make sure all the conversion has stopped. President Bush said he's waiting for confirmation. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It looks like there is some progress but to determine whether or not the progress is real there must be verification.

ENSOR: As for assertions by Secretary of State Colin Powell that Iran is working on how to put a nuclear bomb atop its latest missile, Iran's foreign minister denies it and calls on Powell to prove it.

KHARAZZI: Just claiming something is not enough and the burden to prove is on the shoulder of the person who makes the claims.

ENSOR: The IAEA board is expected this week to tell European diplomats to try to work out a package of incentives with Iran so that it would give up uranium enrichment permanently. Experts say no deal will stick unless the Bush administration gets involved.

RAY TEKEYH, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Ultimately a lasting, durable, permanent solution to Iran's nuclear challenge has to involve Washington and Tehran negotiating over a range of issues.

ENSOR: Back in 1981, the Israelis bombed an Iraqi nuclear facility and, if diplomacy fails or is never really tried some in Washington and many in Jerusalem argue military action may become necessary.

GEN. EPHRAM SNEH, FMR. DEP. CHIEF OF STAFF, ISRAELI ARMY: If we don't prepare a preemptive strike but gradually along the axis of time we are close to the corner.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: But Washington has its hands full in Iraq and neither the U.S. nor Israel knows for sure where all the critical Iranian nuclear facilities are. There may be no clear military option. So, for now at least, it's diplomacy that's heating up -- Aaron.

BROWN: Is there on the diplomatic side, is there a sort of good cop/bad cop being played with the Americans and the Europeans?

ENSOR: That's right. That has been the way it's been working that Europe is supposed to be the good cop and offer trade benefits and the U.S. has been standing on the sideline and making muttering noises about what it might do if this doesn't work out.

But a lot of experts are now saying that what needs to happen now is the Europeans need to show what sticks they've got. They need to say we will cut off trade with you if you don't do this. And the Americans need to sit down at the table and offer some carrots. So, it's getting the mix right that's the problem right now.

BROWN: And just one more question on this. The Iranians suggest that one of their fears here is that the Americans might attack them anyway that they could end up -- they could be the next Iraq with missiles or with nuclear weapons or without.

ENSOR: They do say that, although one gets the sense that they do believe the United States is pretty bogged down in Iraq and not likely to want to take on another problem. So, you hear them say that but I'm not sure they believe it.

BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor in Washington.

Unlike Iran, no great principle informs this next story, none that is beyond don't get in my face and thou shalt not throw beer at the visiting team, yet like the wide receiver, the starlet and the towel a week ago tonight, the saga of the NBA Pistons and the Pacers and the fans is all anyone's been talking about for days it seems.

You can ask why that's so, and we will in a number of ways later, first, the developments up to this point from the standpoint of the league and the law.

Here's CNN's Jonathan Freed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREED (voice-over): So big was the scope of unleashed tempers and flying fists last Friday night that authorities in Michigan still haven't concluded who did what to whom and how they might be charged but there is this pledge.

DAVID GORCYCA, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Everyone involved in this altercation will be held accountable regardless of their status as a player or a fan.

FREED: Indeed one player and one fan are getting most of the attention, even though the NBA suspended nine players on all, five from the Indiana Pacers and four from the Detroit Pistons.

Near the end of the game, the fan in question threw a plastic cup at Pacer's star Ron Artest who was lying down after a foul was called against him. Artest charged into the stands. The courtside chaos that followed evoked this in the NBA commissioner.

STERN: Shock and revulsion and fear.

FREED: Artest is out for the rest of the season, 73 games, and it could cost him just under $5 million in lost salary, but the combined cost to all the players involved more than $10 million.

The Pacer's Reggie Miller received a small fine and a one day suspension just for leaving the bench during the trouble. The team is now grappling with the loss of major talent.

REGGIE MILLER, PACERS PLAYER: It is what it is and, you know, it's time for us as a team to band together and move on.

FREED: Pacers president and basketball legend Larry Bird stood behind Artest and the others and reached out to fans.

LARRY BIRD, PACERS PRESIDENT: We need you now as much as we ever need you. We need support. We need you behind us. FREED: Meanwhile, the suspected cup throwing fan, who the prosecution identified as John Green, tried to chase reporters away from his suburban Detroit home on Monday with his dog.

JOHN GREEN: No comment right now. I'm not going anywhere. The police know where I live. I've talked to them already.

FREED: Investigators are studying videotape of the fight and they still haven't interviewed Artest. They say since injuries were minor any charges would likely be limited to assault and battery, a misdemeanor.

Jonathan Freed, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: More on all of this as we go tonight, including the inevitable questions of race and the culture and the gulf between Joe Six-Pack in the stands and young millionaires down on the court, Jeff Greenfield weighs in.

And a conversation that includes a professor of African American studies, a sports columnist and a guy who was just a left hook away from all of it, all that about at the halfway point in the program tonight.

Back to the whole wide world when we return, including the men and women who thought their obligation to the military was over only to learn that Uncle Sam wants them again.

Also tonight, intelligence reform or the lack thereof three years after the attacks of 9/11, we'll take a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A reminder for the president this weekend that large majorities don't guarantee success despite his best efforts. The House refused to OK the 9/11 Intelligence Reform Bill. The House leadership pulled the bill because two powerful committee chairmen opposed it. It is a reminder to the president that he is not the only voice in town even on an issue as sensitive as 9/11.

Here's CNN's Ed Henry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Bush administration stepped up its efforts to pass intelligence reform with Vice President Cheney coming to the Capitol to lobby Congressman James Sensenbrenner, one of two Republicans holding up the bill but Sensenbrenner says he's more determined than ever to block what he considers meaningless reform.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Well, I'm not going to cave.

HENRY: Sensenbrenner wants to ban states from giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. He says Senate negotiators are too scared to challenge powerful lobbyists who oppose the provision.

SENSENBRENNER: I don't like to vote for things on serious issues that might look good on a bumper sticker but which I know have so many loopholes that they won't work.

HENRY: Not even President Bush calling from Chile on Friday night could stop Sensenbrenner. Observers say it's up to the president to face down fellow Republicans.

JOHN LEHMAN, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: The president now has been challenged directly by the leadership of the Congress and by the lobbyists and by the bureaucracy. Now, he's got to show who's in charge.

HENRY: The other Republican who refused to be rolled was Congressman Duncan Hunter, despite a call from Vice President Cheney, Hunter insisted on protecting the Pentagon from losing power to a new director of national intelligence.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: In my shop, having and maintaining the chain of command and serving our people in uniform is paramount.

HENRY: Some believe the window of opportunity has closed but top Republicans think they can salvage this after Thanksgiving.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: The president is on the way back from South America. He's going to lobby some more. I'm optimistic that we're going to come back together December the 6th and 7th and pass this bill.

HENRY: Former 9/11 commissioners are warning of the danger of inaction.

TIM ROEMER, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: We saw intelligence failures, FBI mistakes, border patrol and visa problems leading up to 9/11 and we lost 3,000 people. How many more body bags are we going to need to see?

HENRY (on camera): James Sensenbrenner fired back that the 9/11 commissioners should not be satisfied with half the job. He said the nation needs real reform not just window dressing.

Ed Henry, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The bill, of course, was supported by the 9/11 Commission. Another of their suggestions was to have the Defense Department take over the CIA's paramilitary operations. Today the White House announced it would explore that option, something the secretary of defense has already rejected. We're joined now by Governor Thomas Kean, the former chairman of the 9/11 Commission. It's always nice to see you. We heard the bill described as meaningless reform.

THOMAS KEAN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: Well, we've got not only a total reorganization of the intelligence of this country to make it workable, we've got things in that reform to help local responders with their radios, local police and fire.

We've got information, there are things in there to help border security and employ more agents. We've got something to help cargo safety. That's a very comprehensive bill and it's one that is designed really to make the American people safer.

BROWN: Why do you think it's had such a struggle through the House?

KEAN: It's always difficult to change the status quo. I mean we've got the support. I've never heard of a bill before that had the support of the speaker and the president of the Senate and the majority leader and the president of the United States and still can't seem to get through.

BROWN: Well, somebody sent a note on this. It's a fair question. The speaker could have called for the bill and put it up for a vote and up or down members of the House would have had to vote for it but he chose not to do that. So, did he really support it or is he pretending to support it?

KEAN: I think he -- he does support it but the philosophy he's got is he doesn't want to post a bill unless a majority of the majority is for it and he doubted whether that was true, although I think had it been posted that at least three-quarters of the Congress in both houses would have supported it. I don't think there's any question about it. Eighty percent of the American people support it.

BROWN: I know you well enough to know that you would not sit here and say that it is a perfect bill in the sense that it solves every intelligence problem or every problem that could lead to another 9/11.

KEAN: No. It doesn't solve every problem but it solves or helps to solve a number of problems. Those provisions in that bill have been very carefully worked out, not only through a year and a half of our study but through a lot of work in the Congress too in the committees. And, if it is passed, we will be safer. You and I will be safer. The American people will be safer and I don't think anybody doubts that.

BROWN: There's a sense, I don't want to make this any more stark than it perhaps is, that the Pentagon loses some in this bill and that while the president publicly supported it, behind the scenes the Pentagon was trying to scuttle it. That's a pretty cynical way to look at things. Do you believe that?

KEAN: I believe there are some in the Pentagon who have been trying to scuttle this bill from day one and have tried to scuttle the commission in many ways before that.

BROWN: What bothers the Pentagon?

KEAN: It's a fight over turf. The national intelligence director would take some of the budgetary power away from the Pentagon but the idea that somehow that the president of the United States would be supporting a bill which would make troops in the field less secure I think is ridiculous on the face of it. This is something that will make the American people more secure both military and non- military and something we all need.

BROWN: Back last summer, it seems like a lifetime ago when you all finished you work, did you assume this would be a tough road through the Congress?

KEAN: It's been tough from day one. We were optimistic when the book became a best seller, when the polls showed the American people supported it and when the Congress came back from vacation to help working on it and we had great leadership in the House and Senate. Congressman Hoekstra and a number of others have been very, very helpful and very, very supportive and so we were very hopeful.

BROWN: Will you get a bill you want?

KEAN: I believe we will but it's going to -- we'll get it. The problem is will we get it before or after the next attack and we've got to have it before the next attack so perhaps we can prevent it.

BROWN: Pretty unconscionable if we did not.

KEAN: I think there will be a pretty heavy load on people's heads if we have another attack and this bill hasn't passed.

BROWN: Governor, it's always good to see you. Have a wonderful holiday.

KEAN: Thank you, same here.

BROWN: Thank you. I hope on the other side you get your bill.

KEAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Coming up on the program, more voices on the water cooler story of the day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOBE BRYANT, L.A. LAKERS: No matter what happens it's not worth running up in the stands and knocking the dude out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Jeff Greenfield on violence or at least a hint of it as a paying proposition. Also tonight, how race or at least background figures in, we'll take a break first.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the beer and punch party in Detroit, if you will, and an observation about the line between spectacle and outrage. They keep moving that little sucker don't they?

Not to allow for beer throwing and fan beatings, not yet, not ever we hope but it's tough to argue that certain thug mentality hasn't crept into basketball and other sports and tougher still to argue that it doesn't cell.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): No, let's not start with the same images you've been seeing almost nonstop since late Friday night. Let's try something else.

This is Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs. He's a perennial all star, a leader of the two-time NBA champs. He's as good as anyone in the league but sports marketers don't value Duncan all that much, no brawls, no attitude, no street cred, no saleable juice.

And, in the world of big time sports, attitude, as much as if not more than ability, is king. It's what gets you on "Sports Center," on the local news highlight reel and it gets you the next big time endorsement payday.

And, in the multi, multibillion dollar business of TV sports, showcasing and celebrating fans with attitude has become literally part of the game. The freak show approach is the key to getting your face on the tube, the ultimate fan fantasy.

And, if you think it's just a matter of sports programming, check out how two cable news networks, including this one, covered this year's presidential debates.

(SHOUTING)

GREENFIELD: Screaming college kids sure bring energy, not to mention the occasional obscene chant. Now add one more ingredient to this mix, the oceans of beer that are consumed by mostly young male fans during the game.

Now, where could they possibly get the idea that mass beer consumption is the key to good times?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I've got cold Bud Lite. (END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Beats me.

Anyway, blend in that booze, the celebration of raw physical hostility on the part of our athlete Gods, the endless excuses made for their conduct on and off the field, and the coverage that feeds fans hungry to be part of the action, and what do you get? Among other things, you get a mugging on ice that left a player with a broken neck, chairs and beer bottles hurled at boorish fans, a pitched battle between two college football teams and, oh, yes, that brawl Friday night you've already seen far too much of.

(on camera): Is this fixable? Sure. If you're an athlete, you pay for your first thuggish act with a year's suspension. Two, you're out of the league. If you're a fan who assaults a player, you do a stretch in jail. If you're a league, a TV network or corporate sponsor, you might start celebrating athletic achievement. It's real easy. You just have to roll back a couple of decades worth of a massive shift in the national appetite.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Joining us from Washington tonight, Mike Wise, sports columnist for "The Washington Post." Mike has long covered the NBA. Michael Eric Dyson joins us from Philadelphia. He's a professor of African-American studies at the University of Pennsylvania. And Michael Rosenberg is a columnist for "The Detroit Free Press." And to say he had a front-row seat the other night is to understate. He joins us tonight from Ann Arbor.

And we're pleased to see you all.

Professor, your reaction, I believe is correct, is that the league has been too harsh in the way it's penalized its players.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Absolutely.

I think that there's no question that one must set boundaries and establish parameters of proprietary behavior for athletes. Certainly and usually, it is highly unacceptable and, indeed, to be discouraged for players to pursue their assaulters verbally in the stands.

But I think in the instance where you have a clear line of demarcation erased by the fans who seek, through their inebriated state, to express their disdain with the players, their disgruntlement, by throwing things at them, physically assaulting them, then I think, at some point, we have to ask the question, to what degree is the league going to protect those players as well?

Certainly, if we had an aggressive assault upon those fans by the justice system that says we're going to prosecute them equally as fervently as David Stern has done with the NBA, then we could see some balance.

BROWN: All right, let me get other guys in on this point.

Michael, we've known each other a long time. We've talked about basketball a fair amount over the years. David Stern wasted no time and pulled no punches.

MIKE WISE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": No, he didn't.

What he did, Aaron, was find the most expedient route to satisfying, you know, an outraged public and, frankly, an outraged league. You know, this was probably an action he had to take. I agree with Professor Dyson in that these fans -- there's a new fan out there in the market. And walking into these arenas is a little bit like Russell Crowe walking into the Roman Coliseum. It's this gladiator mentality that's frightening for a lot of these players now. But let's not forget who ran into the stands and threw those punches.

And Mike Rosenberg, in Detroit, is this being seen? And do you see it? When you wrote about it, was the league too harsh?

MICHAEL ROSENBERG, "THE DETROIT FREE PRESS": No. I think the league was justified.

First of all, you have to remember, in most jobs, if you blatantly violate one of the cardinal rules of the job, you're just fired. And Ron Artest wasn't fired. So, in that sense, it wasn't too harsh at all. And as far as the professor said about running into the stands after someone threw the cup, if you watched the replay, Ron Artest didn't see that cup until it hit him. There's no way he could have seen who threw the cup. He went in there just looking for revenge on somebody. And he went after a guy who happened to have not thrown it. And I think that was a big deal for the commissioner when he was deciding to make that decision.

BROWN: Professor, when we talked to you earlier, you said a black ballplayer hears taunts from the fans as more threatening. Maybe that's true. But what does that have to do with -- honestly, with self-control?

DYSON: Well, what self-control are you speaking about? Are you speaking about self-control of an inebriated white fan who is hurling assaults and now physical objects at a player?

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: No, I'm not, actually. And no one -- I don't believe anyone's going to defend jerk fans. But I'm asking you what the perception of a black ballplayer as hearing this is more threatening has to do with understanding that you can't go into the stands and beat people up?

DYSON: Well, Aaron, to phrase it that way, of course, the knee- jerk reaction is to say, of course, Aaron is right, because anybody who disagrees with him would obviously be participating in the barbarism that we're pointing out. Here's my point, that in a sport that is 85 percent black, that is, the players on the field, the fans are overwhelmingly white, consuming the product, seeing the fans out there. There's been rumble roiling beneath the surface, tension, racial tension, not in terms of explicit racism, but in terms of disdain and resentment for these high-powered, high-paid figures who are out there belly-aching, bemoaning, and complaining.

And let's be honest. Ron Artest had just belly-ached a month before about wanting to take a month off because he was tired and so on and so forth. So, obviously, there's reasonable disdain for these players. But there's also an unconscious racial reflex that I don't think we can overlook here, because David Stern is part of a management position, of course, within the NBA, an extremely gifted man.

But, as the same time, as a white man over a black league, black players with white people in the stands, this is creating, I think, a very tense racial atmosphere that we can't overlook as we talk about the elements that go into it.

BROWN: OK.

DYSON: So when I say a white guy in the stands saying look at those high-paid Negroes on the floor -- and I've been in basketball stands, trust me, where I have heard racial epithets being hurled -- you can't pretend ignorance or naivete in America to suggest that we're at a point now where none of that makes a difference.

And when you add alcohol on top of that, that's a lethal cocktail and an emotional mix.

BROWN: All right, Professor, take a breath. I will, too.

We're going to take a break and we'll pick this up at that point with all of our guests.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Continuing now our discussion on the brawl in the basketball game.

Let me go to Mike Wise for a second.

Mike, you made the argument today there's plenty of blame here to go around.

And I'll confess, listening to sports talk radio on the way into work today, I was pretty stunned at the tone of what was being said.

WISE: And I think that that's part of it. We don't realize how much we all contribute to this. We're all culpable in a lot of ways.

If I may respond to Professor Dyson, I think we do a disservice to every NBA player, African-American, white, Slavic, Turkish, that wouldn't go into the stands if someone threw a cup of beer on him and said, look -- point it out to the security guard who actually did it. We live in a society where now it's just so toxic. People want to go at each other. And you didn't find that beforehand.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Mike, in their heart of hearts, do you think there are a fair number of NBA players, who, while perhaps even ashamed of what happened the other night, have taken enough and sort of nodded, saying, well, I'm glad somebody popped those guys?

WISE: Oh, I'll bet you John Starks is celebrating widely. There was a guy in Indiana who used to stand behind the Pacers bench and yell, hey, psycho boy for about a couple years. And I almost popped him for it myself I was so upset.

This is the fan out there. This is a different environment than we've ever known. You could almost trace it back to Monica Seles getting stabbed on a tennis court in Germany all those years ago.

BROWN: Yes.

WISE: You didn't see this 20 and 25 years ago.

BROWN: Mike Rosenberg, just going back to something Jeff Greenfield wrote about today and that you talked about in your column a bit today as well, I think you said that, if Michael Jordan came into the league today, he'd probably be ignored because he didn't really have the stuff that you need today. Do you really believe that?

ROSENBERG: Well, I wouldn't say ignored, but he would not come in and be the marketing phenomenon that he was. I'm sorry. If a guy comes in right now and he's not from the city and he doesn't have cornrows and he doesn't have tattoos or anything like that and he doesn't have any sort of problems in his background, he's not going to get the sneaker contract that guys are getting today. It's a simple fact.

DYSON: I find that remarkable. I find that remarkable.

Look, there's no denying that street credibility accrues to a player in significant fashion because of the so-called hip-hop takeover of basketball. But Michael Jordan made his the old-fashioned way, by earning it. And he was part, however, of the creation of what you see. The first player to wear long shorts was Michael Jordan. The first person to shave his hair was Michael Jordan. The first person to really get away with wearing an earring in his hear was Michael Jordan.

So please don't be nostalgic or naive about the changes that Michael Jordan wrought. Now, to be sure...

(CROSSTALK) WISE: But Michael Jordan also said, Michael also said, Professor Dyson, that he -- he admitted a few years ago he was part of the problem The creation of the individual, the idea that he was somehow bigger than the game, and that they got away from the rivalries that propelled this league was part of the problem. Michael Jordan acknowledged that.

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: Well, that's a different issue. That's a different issue than whether or not a thug image adds to street credibility. I don't deny, as a person who deals with that, that that's real.

But to suggest that that's simply the case, you can't get over if you're not Allen Iverson vs. Kobe Bryant, is really wrong.

BROWN: Gentlemen, as much I'd like to go on another segment, I can't.

I appreciate your time. I have a feeling we're not done with this yet. And we'll all come back and do it one more night.

Thank you all. You were terrific tonight.

WISE: Thank you, Aaron.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Still to come, back to the real world, the soldiers who say they've already served their country, and the call they're getting to serve it again.

And we'll wrap it up, as we do, with morning papers. And I wonder what will be on the front page today. Gee. You think it might have to do with basketball? We shall find out.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Boy, that will take you back to the real world quick, won't it?

It is one thing, we suppose, to hear a member of the Reserves or the National Guard complain about being called up to active duty. These are people who drill each month. They're paid each month. It's a deal they made. But there's another group about whom simply calling whiners seems a bit unfair. They joined. They served. They fulfilled their agreement, or so they thought, until they checked the mailbox.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Todd Parrish can tell you exactly when he left the Army, eight years after he joined.

TODD PARRISH, FORMER U.S. ARMY OFFICER: Right. I choose not to be in the military anymore as of December 19, 2003.

BROWN: Rick Howell can tell you as well.

RICK HOWELL, FORMER U.S. ARMY MAJOR: I left the military in 1997 under a program called VSI. Basically, they were downsizing the military in an effort to balance the budget. I left the military under that program. And part of that stipulation was, I could not come back on active duty. I could not volunteer for the Reserves, active Reserves or active National Guard.

BROWN: But there's a catch-22. To the Army, they were still part of the Ready Reserves even after they quit. The Ready Reserves is a group that doesn't train, doesn't get paid, but can still be called up.

T. PARRISH: I did not volunteer to stay in the military. I believe at any point somebody makes a choice. And they're saying going back to 1992, when I was 19 years old, that I volunteered to stay in the military in definitely until 2024.

BROWN: In all, there are about 4,000 or so soldiers like Howell and Parrish who have received notices to report for active duty, these among the 110,000 members of the Ready Reserve the Pentagon says it still controls. Nearly 2,000 have requested exceptions or have appealed. Todd Parrish has filed a lawsuit.

MARK L. WAPLE, ATTORNEY FOR PARRISH: Congress decided in July of 1973 that the armed forces of the United States would be a volunteer force. Now, the Army is saying that Todd Parrish somehow volunteered to remain or to serve in the Reserves beyond his eight-year military service obligation.

BROWN: For its part, the Army has little sympathy. A spokesman says that officers are fully aware of their commitment to the Army. Legally, the Army has control over former officers who retire until they reach the age of 60, a surprise to many and to many a spouse as well.

COLETTE PARRISH, WIFE OF TODD: It was a big shock. We thought we were finished. Todd walked out to the mailbox on a Saturday. We were planning to go out that night. He walked back in with this devastated look on his face. And I thought he was kidding because he looked at me and he said, they have called me to active duty.

BROWN: So far, of the 2,500 Ready Reserve soldiers who were supposed to have shown up for refresher military training, nearly 800 have not. But the Army has agreed to let many of those soldiers stay at home, an option that, to date, has not been given to Todd Parrish.

T. PARRISH: And, at some point, you have to say to yourself, when is enough enough? And when am I stopped? What do I got to do to stop, to say, OK, he's a patriot; he served his country long enough; he has the right to move on with his life?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Another side of the story.

Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world on this Thanksgiving week.

We'll start with "The Christian Science Monitor." We haven't done "The Monitor" in a while. No particular reason for that that I can think of, but I'll work on it. "A Shortening List of Failing Schools. States Gauge Progress in Bush's Education Reforms and Debate What It Really Shows." That's sort of the question, I guess, is, do these tests actually prove anything? And it depends where you are on that side of the testing debate. We take no sides.

"Philadelphia Inquirer." Sport and violence in a lot of papers, as you would imagine, first, just violence. "One Killed, Three Hurt in School Violence." Has nothing to do with sport. But down here, "First Punches, Then Questions. Beer, Anger and Societal Changes May Have Been Behind the Friday Night Fight." I worry that we're all overthinking this a little bit.

"The Rocky" -- it's rare on television to be honest. "The Rocky Mountain News." "Tharp Tossed." This is the athletic director at the Colorado University, University of Colorado. "Athletic Director Denies Wrongdoing in Football Scandal." This had to do whether recruits to the university were taken to little sex parties and things.

"The Atlanta Journal Constitution." Down in the corner, I didn't know about this one. It got lost to the other violence, I guess. "Brawl Bumps Bowls For Tigers, Gamecocks." This was a football brawl between Clemson and South Carolina the other day.

This will bring you back to the real world, if you needed it. I don't. "Chattanooga Times-Free Press." "It's Real, Now, Boys. First Soldiers of the 278th on the Ground to Begin Year-long Deployment in Iraq." They must look at this goofball NBA thing and say, what's wrong with the world?

"The Detroit News"" how else would that paper lead? "Sports Fouls Out. Caught Up in Culture of Violence, Players and Fans Cross Line." "Chair Thrower Faces Felony Charge." Yes. Yes. I mean, they ought to suspend the players for the year. And the guy who did this, or the people, should go to jail or whatever. No, go to jail. I'm good on that.

"The San Francisco Examiner." "Record Traffic Predicted For Thanksgiving. Heaviest Congestion Since '95 Predicted For the State." OK.

"Chicago Sun-Times" ends it all. I don't do headlines much from them. This story is too much, though. "He Hunted Them Down" is their headline. These were the five or six hunters, deer hunters, that were murdered the other day.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago, please. The weather in Chicago tomorrow, please.

(CHIMES)

BROWN: OK. "Slap" is the answer. We'll just imagine there were chimes.

We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time to start thinking about what you're going to do at 7:00 in the morning.

Here's Soledad O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," millions of Americans on the move this week, as the holiday travel season kicks off. And for the nation's passenger train line, this is crunch time. Tomorrow, we go behind the scenes at Amtrak for an up-close look at everything that has to happen just right to protect against terrorists and make the trains run on time. Also tomorrow, how does the new U2 album stand up against the band's other classics? Toure gives us his long-awaited review.

CNN tomorrow, 7:00 Eastern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Thank you, Soledad.

Good to have you all with us tonight. We're all back here tomorrow in this holiday week. We hope you are, too.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" next for most of you.

Until tomorrow, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 22, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
So, I listened to sports talk radio on the way in to work today. The water cooler conversation of the day is about sports, about the NBA brawl, about fans and players and that sometimes uneasy relationship.

We'll talk a fair amount about that tonight, not because it's the most important story of the day, it clearly isn't, but because what happened the other night in Detroit does tell us some things about some things.

The joy of sport is that it's a diversion. It isn't really life or death. We just pretend that it really matters. Athletes are entertainers. Spectators are simply that, the audience.

There is a line between them and for our money David Stern got it exactly right when he said no matter what that line cannot be crossed. That's what's been coming for a while. Fan behavior has grown worse. Players seem too often rewarded for their outrageousness.

One question we will not be able to answer tonight is this. Is this the end of something, the moment where everyone steps back and looks at how crazy things are or is it simply the beginning of something worse?

The whip, however, begins at the Pentagon with a question long hinted at and perhaps soon to be answered, CNN's Jamie McIntyre on the story, Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, during the presidential campaign some Democrats accused the Bush administration of having a secret plan to send more troops to Iraq after the election. The Pentagon denied it then. They deny it now but nevertheless they're contemplating sending more troops than they had thought if U.S. commanders request them.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

Next the take on Iran's decision to suspend a portion of its nuclear program for a while, CNN's David Ensor with that, David a headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Iranian government says that it has stopped processing materials, raw yellow caked uranium into materials that could be used in bomb making. It says that it has done that as a suspension only.

President Bush says he wants to verify that that's the case and the scene is set for Thursday's meeting in Vienna of the International Atomic Energy Administration where the world is supposed to decide what to do about Iran's nuclear weapons or lack thereof, depending on who you believe.

BROWN: David, thank you.

And finally the brawl in Detroit, CNN's Jonathan Freed with the developments on that today, Jonathan a headline.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Indiana Pacers' leadership expressed regret today but left no doubt that the team is standing behind the suspended players.

BROWN: Jon, thank you, back with you and the rest shortly.

Also in the program tonight that seems heavy on fighting of all varieties.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID STERN, NBA COMMISSIONER: Rather than somehow expressing the misguided notion that receiving the adequate respect, you know, makes you -- makes it necessary for you to place other people at bodily risk, it's not going to be tolerated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: There's a lot to be said about what the commissioner said and did. We'll talk with a sports writer who watched it from court side then ring side. We'll talk money and culture and class and race as well.

And, as always, we'll talk roosters and headlines and morning papers to close out the program, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with the possibility, the growing possibility that more troops will be going to Iraq. For 18 months the president has said more were available just for the asking and for just as long commanders have declined to ask but, from time to time, they've hinted.

If, in fact, this changes, it may be a signal, a signal in the belief that the insurgents are finally on the run or perhaps a recognition they are increasingly on the march. Either way, finding more boots to put on the ground will not be easy or simply.

So, we begin tonight at the Pentagon and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): With victory in Falluja comes the reality that thousands of U.S. soldiers and Marines will likely be tied down there for weeks or even months making sure insurgents don't come back. LT. GEN. JOHN SATTLER, COMMANDING GEN. 1ST MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE: We will not move out too early. We will stay in proximity as close as necessary.

MCINTYRE: Despite the claims of some U.S. commanders and Iraq's interim prime minister, Pentagon officials concede the U.S. has not yet broken the back of the insurgency and with Iraqi elections just over two months away the Pentagon has contingency plans to temporarily boost the number of U.S. troops in Iraq without breaking its pledge to limit U.S. combat tours to one year.

LT. GEN. LANCE SMITH, DEPUTY U.S. CENTRAL COMMANDER: That would not be our intent but I would not say categorically that that would be precluded.

MCINTYRE: There are some 138,000 U.S. troops now in Iraq. No decision has been made but an option to extend some tours from ten months to 12 would boost force levels to 141,000 by January. That number could swell to 145,000 under a new option that would call on several thousand soldiers from the 82nd Airborne on standby in the U.S. or fresh troops held in reserve in Kuwait.

The Pentagon argues victory over the insurgents will come only when Iraqi troops are doing the bulk of the fighting and worries that more Falluja-style victories could produce a backlash.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INST.: There are other reasons to do additional troop numbers. For example, you might want to do more patrolling, which is not necessarily going on the offensive. It's simply trying to restore security in some of these Iraqi cities and towns that are not presently very secure at all.

MCINTYRE: But some critics argue for a much bigger infusion of American reinforcements now. A "New York Times" editorial headlined "Costly Troop Deficit in Iraq" calls for 20,000 to 40,000 more troops and concludes: "the Bush administration has still not learned the lesson of Iraq. Securing the peace takes more, not fewer, soldiers than winning battles."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists that U.S. troop levels in Iraq are set by commanders on the ground but some critics worry that with the U.S. strategy being to keep as few American troops in Iraq as possible the generals may be hesitant to ask for what they really need -- Aaron.

BROWN: Is there an implicit suggestion here that the fact that more troops may very well be needed means also that the training of Iraqi soldiers is falling considerably behind schedule?

MCINTYRE: Well, I don't know how far behind schedule but it's clear that Iraqi troops are not yet able to take over the tasks that the U.S. would like them to take, plus they're being targeted by the insurgents specifically and that's having an effect as well. What the U.S. is talking about here is a modest increase in troops, several thousand, for a short period of time but what's clear is that at this point there are a lot of tradeoffs involved and the U.S. wants those elections to go forward and to have some legitimacy without looking like they're pouring more troops into Iraq and becoming even more of an occupying power.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon tonight.

Before moving on, from Iraq a quick reminder of the cost, at least 101 American troops have died so far this month making it the second deadliest month of the war. The day played out one attack after another from Basra to Baghdad to Mosul in the north.

Insurgents in Basra blew up an oil pipeline. In central Baghdad, a rocket hit a residential neighborhood. Authorities believe it was aimed at a government building but missed the target. And, in the western part of Baghdad, insurgents set off a roadside bomb as an American convoy drove past, no information yet on casualties there.

In Falluja, a grim discovery today, a cage possibly used by terrorist kidnappers, the kidnappers of Kenneth Bigley, was found. Mr. Bigley, you'll remember, was the British citizen who was beheaded some weeks back.

And, in Mosul, assassins took the life of a Sunni political leader. Three men gunned him down, motives for the killing unknown, which is hardly unusual in Iraq these days.

Iran now, President Reagan had a favorite saying when dealing with the Soviets, "Trust but verify." For President Bush and Iran it's more like don't trust and can't quite verify. Today, Iran took steps it says to reassure the world it does not have nuclear weapons.

The world has yet to speak but today the president did, our National Security Correspondent CNN's David Ensor now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): In Egypt, Iran's foreign minister told CNN Tehran has now stopped converting raw uranium, yellow cake, into materials used in the production of bomb grade uranium as promised to European governments but that it is only a suspension.

KAMAL KHARAZZI, IRAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The facility in Isfahan is capable to produce but now it is in suspension.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So it is now suspended?

KHARAZZI: Yes.

ENSOR: International Atomic Energy Agency officials say inspectors are on the ground in Iran to make sure all the conversion has stopped. President Bush said he's waiting for confirmation. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It looks like there is some progress but to determine whether or not the progress is real there must be verification.

ENSOR: As for assertions by Secretary of State Colin Powell that Iran is working on how to put a nuclear bomb atop its latest missile, Iran's foreign minister denies it and calls on Powell to prove it.

KHARAZZI: Just claiming something is not enough and the burden to prove is on the shoulder of the person who makes the claims.

ENSOR: The IAEA board is expected this week to tell European diplomats to try to work out a package of incentives with Iran so that it would give up uranium enrichment permanently. Experts say no deal will stick unless the Bush administration gets involved.

RAY TEKEYH, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Ultimately a lasting, durable, permanent solution to Iran's nuclear challenge has to involve Washington and Tehran negotiating over a range of issues.

ENSOR: Back in 1981, the Israelis bombed an Iraqi nuclear facility and, if diplomacy fails or is never really tried some in Washington and many in Jerusalem argue military action may become necessary.

GEN. EPHRAM SNEH, FMR. DEP. CHIEF OF STAFF, ISRAELI ARMY: If we don't prepare a preemptive strike but gradually along the axis of time we are close to the corner.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: But Washington has its hands full in Iraq and neither the U.S. nor Israel knows for sure where all the critical Iranian nuclear facilities are. There may be no clear military option. So, for now at least, it's diplomacy that's heating up -- Aaron.

BROWN: Is there on the diplomatic side, is there a sort of good cop/bad cop being played with the Americans and the Europeans?

ENSOR: That's right. That has been the way it's been working that Europe is supposed to be the good cop and offer trade benefits and the U.S. has been standing on the sideline and making muttering noises about what it might do if this doesn't work out.

But a lot of experts are now saying that what needs to happen now is the Europeans need to show what sticks they've got. They need to say we will cut off trade with you if you don't do this. And the Americans need to sit down at the table and offer some carrots. So, it's getting the mix right that's the problem right now.

BROWN: And just one more question on this. The Iranians suggest that one of their fears here is that the Americans might attack them anyway that they could end up -- they could be the next Iraq with missiles or with nuclear weapons or without.

ENSOR: They do say that, although one gets the sense that they do believe the United States is pretty bogged down in Iraq and not likely to want to take on another problem. So, you hear them say that but I'm not sure they believe it.

BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor in Washington.

Unlike Iran, no great principle informs this next story, none that is beyond don't get in my face and thou shalt not throw beer at the visiting team, yet like the wide receiver, the starlet and the towel a week ago tonight, the saga of the NBA Pistons and the Pacers and the fans is all anyone's been talking about for days it seems.

You can ask why that's so, and we will in a number of ways later, first, the developments up to this point from the standpoint of the league and the law.

Here's CNN's Jonathan Freed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREED (voice-over): So big was the scope of unleashed tempers and flying fists last Friday night that authorities in Michigan still haven't concluded who did what to whom and how they might be charged but there is this pledge.

DAVID GORCYCA, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Everyone involved in this altercation will be held accountable regardless of their status as a player or a fan.

FREED: Indeed one player and one fan are getting most of the attention, even though the NBA suspended nine players on all, five from the Indiana Pacers and four from the Detroit Pistons.

Near the end of the game, the fan in question threw a plastic cup at Pacer's star Ron Artest who was lying down after a foul was called against him. Artest charged into the stands. The courtside chaos that followed evoked this in the NBA commissioner.

STERN: Shock and revulsion and fear.

FREED: Artest is out for the rest of the season, 73 games, and it could cost him just under $5 million in lost salary, but the combined cost to all the players involved more than $10 million.

The Pacer's Reggie Miller received a small fine and a one day suspension just for leaving the bench during the trouble. The team is now grappling with the loss of major talent.

REGGIE MILLER, PACERS PLAYER: It is what it is and, you know, it's time for us as a team to band together and move on.

FREED: Pacers president and basketball legend Larry Bird stood behind Artest and the others and reached out to fans.

LARRY BIRD, PACERS PRESIDENT: We need you now as much as we ever need you. We need support. We need you behind us. FREED: Meanwhile, the suspected cup throwing fan, who the prosecution identified as John Green, tried to chase reporters away from his suburban Detroit home on Monday with his dog.

JOHN GREEN: No comment right now. I'm not going anywhere. The police know where I live. I've talked to them already.

FREED: Investigators are studying videotape of the fight and they still haven't interviewed Artest. They say since injuries were minor any charges would likely be limited to assault and battery, a misdemeanor.

Jonathan Freed, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: More on all of this as we go tonight, including the inevitable questions of race and the culture and the gulf between Joe Six-Pack in the stands and young millionaires down on the court, Jeff Greenfield weighs in.

And a conversation that includes a professor of African American studies, a sports columnist and a guy who was just a left hook away from all of it, all that about at the halfway point in the program tonight.

Back to the whole wide world when we return, including the men and women who thought their obligation to the military was over only to learn that Uncle Sam wants them again.

Also tonight, intelligence reform or the lack thereof three years after the attacks of 9/11, we'll take a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A reminder for the president this weekend that large majorities don't guarantee success despite his best efforts. The House refused to OK the 9/11 Intelligence Reform Bill. The House leadership pulled the bill because two powerful committee chairmen opposed it. It is a reminder to the president that he is not the only voice in town even on an issue as sensitive as 9/11.

Here's CNN's Ed Henry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Bush administration stepped up its efforts to pass intelligence reform with Vice President Cheney coming to the Capitol to lobby Congressman James Sensenbrenner, one of two Republicans holding up the bill but Sensenbrenner says he's more determined than ever to block what he considers meaningless reform.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), WISCONSIN: Well, I'm not going to cave.

HENRY: Sensenbrenner wants to ban states from giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. He says Senate negotiators are too scared to challenge powerful lobbyists who oppose the provision.

SENSENBRENNER: I don't like to vote for things on serious issues that might look good on a bumper sticker but which I know have so many loopholes that they won't work.

HENRY: Not even President Bush calling from Chile on Friday night could stop Sensenbrenner. Observers say it's up to the president to face down fellow Republicans.

JOHN LEHMAN, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: The president now has been challenged directly by the leadership of the Congress and by the lobbyists and by the bureaucracy. Now, he's got to show who's in charge.

HENRY: The other Republican who refused to be rolled was Congressman Duncan Hunter, despite a call from Vice President Cheney, Hunter insisted on protecting the Pentagon from losing power to a new director of national intelligence.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: In my shop, having and maintaining the chain of command and serving our people in uniform is paramount.

HENRY: Some believe the window of opportunity has closed but top Republicans think they can salvage this after Thanksgiving.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: The president is on the way back from South America. He's going to lobby some more. I'm optimistic that we're going to come back together December the 6th and 7th and pass this bill.

HENRY: Former 9/11 commissioners are warning of the danger of inaction.

TIM ROEMER, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: We saw intelligence failures, FBI mistakes, border patrol and visa problems leading up to 9/11 and we lost 3,000 people. How many more body bags are we going to need to see?

HENRY (on camera): James Sensenbrenner fired back that the 9/11 commissioners should not be satisfied with half the job. He said the nation needs real reform not just window dressing.

Ed Henry, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The bill, of course, was supported by the 9/11 Commission. Another of their suggestions was to have the Defense Department take over the CIA's paramilitary operations. Today the White House announced it would explore that option, something the secretary of defense has already rejected. We're joined now by Governor Thomas Kean, the former chairman of the 9/11 Commission. It's always nice to see you. We heard the bill described as meaningless reform.

THOMAS KEAN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: Well, we've got not only a total reorganization of the intelligence of this country to make it workable, we've got things in that reform to help local responders with their radios, local police and fire.

We've got information, there are things in there to help border security and employ more agents. We've got something to help cargo safety. That's a very comprehensive bill and it's one that is designed really to make the American people safer.

BROWN: Why do you think it's had such a struggle through the House?

KEAN: It's always difficult to change the status quo. I mean we've got the support. I've never heard of a bill before that had the support of the speaker and the president of the Senate and the majority leader and the president of the United States and still can't seem to get through.

BROWN: Well, somebody sent a note on this. It's a fair question. The speaker could have called for the bill and put it up for a vote and up or down members of the House would have had to vote for it but he chose not to do that. So, did he really support it or is he pretending to support it?

KEAN: I think he -- he does support it but the philosophy he's got is he doesn't want to post a bill unless a majority of the majority is for it and he doubted whether that was true, although I think had it been posted that at least three-quarters of the Congress in both houses would have supported it. I don't think there's any question about it. Eighty percent of the American people support it.

BROWN: I know you well enough to know that you would not sit here and say that it is a perfect bill in the sense that it solves every intelligence problem or every problem that could lead to another 9/11.

KEAN: No. It doesn't solve every problem but it solves or helps to solve a number of problems. Those provisions in that bill have been very carefully worked out, not only through a year and a half of our study but through a lot of work in the Congress too in the committees. And, if it is passed, we will be safer. You and I will be safer. The American people will be safer and I don't think anybody doubts that.

BROWN: There's a sense, I don't want to make this any more stark than it perhaps is, that the Pentagon loses some in this bill and that while the president publicly supported it, behind the scenes the Pentagon was trying to scuttle it. That's a pretty cynical way to look at things. Do you believe that?

KEAN: I believe there are some in the Pentagon who have been trying to scuttle this bill from day one and have tried to scuttle the commission in many ways before that.

BROWN: What bothers the Pentagon?

KEAN: It's a fight over turf. The national intelligence director would take some of the budgetary power away from the Pentagon but the idea that somehow that the president of the United States would be supporting a bill which would make troops in the field less secure I think is ridiculous on the face of it. This is something that will make the American people more secure both military and non- military and something we all need.

BROWN: Back last summer, it seems like a lifetime ago when you all finished you work, did you assume this would be a tough road through the Congress?

KEAN: It's been tough from day one. We were optimistic when the book became a best seller, when the polls showed the American people supported it and when the Congress came back from vacation to help working on it and we had great leadership in the House and Senate. Congressman Hoekstra and a number of others have been very, very helpful and very, very supportive and so we were very hopeful.

BROWN: Will you get a bill you want?

KEAN: I believe we will but it's going to -- we'll get it. The problem is will we get it before or after the next attack and we've got to have it before the next attack so perhaps we can prevent it.

BROWN: Pretty unconscionable if we did not.

KEAN: I think there will be a pretty heavy load on people's heads if we have another attack and this bill hasn't passed.

BROWN: Governor, it's always good to see you. Have a wonderful holiday.

KEAN: Thank you, same here.

BROWN: Thank you. I hope on the other side you get your bill.

KEAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Coming up on the program, more voices on the water cooler story of the day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOBE BRYANT, L.A. LAKERS: No matter what happens it's not worth running up in the stands and knocking the dude out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Jeff Greenfield on violence or at least a hint of it as a paying proposition. Also tonight, how race or at least background figures in, we'll take a break first.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the beer and punch party in Detroit, if you will, and an observation about the line between spectacle and outrage. They keep moving that little sucker don't they?

Not to allow for beer throwing and fan beatings, not yet, not ever we hope but it's tough to argue that certain thug mentality hasn't crept into basketball and other sports and tougher still to argue that it doesn't cell.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): No, let's not start with the same images you've been seeing almost nonstop since late Friday night. Let's try something else.

This is Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs. He's a perennial all star, a leader of the two-time NBA champs. He's as good as anyone in the league but sports marketers don't value Duncan all that much, no brawls, no attitude, no street cred, no saleable juice.

And, in the world of big time sports, attitude, as much as if not more than ability, is king. It's what gets you on "Sports Center," on the local news highlight reel and it gets you the next big time endorsement payday.

And, in the multi, multibillion dollar business of TV sports, showcasing and celebrating fans with attitude has become literally part of the game. The freak show approach is the key to getting your face on the tube, the ultimate fan fantasy.

And, if you think it's just a matter of sports programming, check out how two cable news networks, including this one, covered this year's presidential debates.

(SHOUTING)

GREENFIELD: Screaming college kids sure bring energy, not to mention the occasional obscene chant. Now add one more ingredient to this mix, the oceans of beer that are consumed by mostly young male fans during the game.

Now, where could they possibly get the idea that mass beer consumption is the key to good times?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I've got cold Bud Lite. (END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Beats me.

Anyway, blend in that booze, the celebration of raw physical hostility on the part of our athlete Gods, the endless excuses made for their conduct on and off the field, and the coverage that feeds fans hungry to be part of the action, and what do you get? Among other things, you get a mugging on ice that left a player with a broken neck, chairs and beer bottles hurled at boorish fans, a pitched battle between two college football teams and, oh, yes, that brawl Friday night you've already seen far too much of.

(on camera): Is this fixable? Sure. If you're an athlete, you pay for your first thuggish act with a year's suspension. Two, you're out of the league. If you're a fan who assaults a player, you do a stretch in jail. If you're a league, a TV network or corporate sponsor, you might start celebrating athletic achievement. It's real easy. You just have to roll back a couple of decades worth of a massive shift in the national appetite.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Joining us from Washington tonight, Mike Wise, sports columnist for "The Washington Post." Mike has long covered the NBA. Michael Eric Dyson joins us from Philadelphia. He's a professor of African-American studies at the University of Pennsylvania. And Michael Rosenberg is a columnist for "The Detroit Free Press." And to say he had a front-row seat the other night is to understate. He joins us tonight from Ann Arbor.

And we're pleased to see you all.

Professor, your reaction, I believe is correct, is that the league has been too harsh in the way it's penalized its players.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Absolutely.

I think that there's no question that one must set boundaries and establish parameters of proprietary behavior for athletes. Certainly and usually, it is highly unacceptable and, indeed, to be discouraged for players to pursue their assaulters verbally in the stands.

But I think in the instance where you have a clear line of demarcation erased by the fans who seek, through their inebriated state, to express their disdain with the players, their disgruntlement, by throwing things at them, physically assaulting them, then I think, at some point, we have to ask the question, to what degree is the league going to protect those players as well?

Certainly, if we had an aggressive assault upon those fans by the justice system that says we're going to prosecute them equally as fervently as David Stern has done with the NBA, then we could see some balance.

BROWN: All right, let me get other guys in on this point.

Michael, we've known each other a long time. We've talked about basketball a fair amount over the years. David Stern wasted no time and pulled no punches.

MIKE WISE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": No, he didn't.

What he did, Aaron, was find the most expedient route to satisfying, you know, an outraged public and, frankly, an outraged league. You know, this was probably an action he had to take. I agree with Professor Dyson in that these fans -- there's a new fan out there in the market. And walking into these arenas is a little bit like Russell Crowe walking into the Roman Coliseum. It's this gladiator mentality that's frightening for a lot of these players now. But let's not forget who ran into the stands and threw those punches.

And Mike Rosenberg, in Detroit, is this being seen? And do you see it? When you wrote about it, was the league too harsh?

MICHAEL ROSENBERG, "THE DETROIT FREE PRESS": No. I think the league was justified.

First of all, you have to remember, in most jobs, if you blatantly violate one of the cardinal rules of the job, you're just fired. And Ron Artest wasn't fired. So, in that sense, it wasn't too harsh at all. And as far as the professor said about running into the stands after someone threw the cup, if you watched the replay, Ron Artest didn't see that cup until it hit him. There's no way he could have seen who threw the cup. He went in there just looking for revenge on somebody. And he went after a guy who happened to have not thrown it. And I think that was a big deal for the commissioner when he was deciding to make that decision.

BROWN: Professor, when we talked to you earlier, you said a black ballplayer hears taunts from the fans as more threatening. Maybe that's true. But what does that have to do with -- honestly, with self-control?

DYSON: Well, what self-control are you speaking about? Are you speaking about self-control of an inebriated white fan who is hurling assaults and now physical objects at a player?

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: No, I'm not, actually. And no one -- I don't believe anyone's going to defend jerk fans. But I'm asking you what the perception of a black ballplayer as hearing this is more threatening has to do with understanding that you can't go into the stands and beat people up?

DYSON: Well, Aaron, to phrase it that way, of course, the knee- jerk reaction is to say, of course, Aaron is right, because anybody who disagrees with him would obviously be participating in the barbarism that we're pointing out. Here's my point, that in a sport that is 85 percent black, that is, the players on the field, the fans are overwhelmingly white, consuming the product, seeing the fans out there. There's been rumble roiling beneath the surface, tension, racial tension, not in terms of explicit racism, but in terms of disdain and resentment for these high-powered, high-paid figures who are out there belly-aching, bemoaning, and complaining.

And let's be honest. Ron Artest had just belly-ached a month before about wanting to take a month off because he was tired and so on and so forth. So, obviously, there's reasonable disdain for these players. But there's also an unconscious racial reflex that I don't think we can overlook here, because David Stern is part of a management position, of course, within the NBA, an extremely gifted man.

But, as the same time, as a white man over a black league, black players with white people in the stands, this is creating, I think, a very tense racial atmosphere that we can't overlook as we talk about the elements that go into it.

BROWN: OK.

DYSON: So when I say a white guy in the stands saying look at those high-paid Negroes on the floor -- and I've been in basketball stands, trust me, where I have heard racial epithets being hurled -- you can't pretend ignorance or naivete in America to suggest that we're at a point now where none of that makes a difference.

And when you add alcohol on top of that, that's a lethal cocktail and an emotional mix.

BROWN: All right, Professor, take a breath. I will, too.

We're going to take a break and we'll pick this up at that point with all of our guests.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Continuing now our discussion on the brawl in the basketball game.

Let me go to Mike Wise for a second.

Mike, you made the argument today there's plenty of blame here to go around.

And I'll confess, listening to sports talk radio on the way into work today, I was pretty stunned at the tone of what was being said.

WISE: And I think that that's part of it. We don't realize how much we all contribute to this. We're all culpable in a lot of ways.

If I may respond to Professor Dyson, I think we do a disservice to every NBA player, African-American, white, Slavic, Turkish, that wouldn't go into the stands if someone threw a cup of beer on him and said, look -- point it out to the security guard who actually did it. We live in a society where now it's just so toxic. People want to go at each other. And you didn't find that beforehand.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Mike, in their heart of hearts, do you think there are a fair number of NBA players, who, while perhaps even ashamed of what happened the other night, have taken enough and sort of nodded, saying, well, I'm glad somebody popped those guys?

WISE: Oh, I'll bet you John Starks is celebrating widely. There was a guy in Indiana who used to stand behind the Pacers bench and yell, hey, psycho boy for about a couple years. And I almost popped him for it myself I was so upset.

This is the fan out there. This is a different environment than we've ever known. You could almost trace it back to Monica Seles getting stabbed on a tennis court in Germany all those years ago.

BROWN: Yes.

WISE: You didn't see this 20 and 25 years ago.

BROWN: Mike Rosenberg, just going back to something Jeff Greenfield wrote about today and that you talked about in your column a bit today as well, I think you said that, if Michael Jordan came into the league today, he'd probably be ignored because he didn't really have the stuff that you need today. Do you really believe that?

ROSENBERG: Well, I wouldn't say ignored, but he would not come in and be the marketing phenomenon that he was. I'm sorry. If a guy comes in right now and he's not from the city and he doesn't have cornrows and he doesn't have tattoos or anything like that and he doesn't have any sort of problems in his background, he's not going to get the sneaker contract that guys are getting today. It's a simple fact.

DYSON: I find that remarkable. I find that remarkable.

Look, there's no denying that street credibility accrues to a player in significant fashion because of the so-called hip-hop takeover of basketball. But Michael Jordan made his the old-fashioned way, by earning it. And he was part, however, of the creation of what you see. The first player to wear long shorts was Michael Jordan. The first person to shave his hair was Michael Jordan. The first person to really get away with wearing an earring in his hear was Michael Jordan.

So please don't be nostalgic or naive about the changes that Michael Jordan wrought. Now, to be sure...

(CROSSTALK) WISE: But Michael Jordan also said, Michael also said, Professor Dyson, that he -- he admitted a few years ago he was part of the problem The creation of the individual, the idea that he was somehow bigger than the game, and that they got away from the rivalries that propelled this league was part of the problem. Michael Jordan acknowledged that.

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: Well, that's a different issue. That's a different issue than whether or not a thug image adds to street credibility. I don't deny, as a person who deals with that, that that's real.

But to suggest that that's simply the case, you can't get over if you're not Allen Iverson vs. Kobe Bryant, is really wrong.

BROWN: Gentlemen, as much I'd like to go on another segment, I can't.

I appreciate your time. I have a feeling we're not done with this yet. And we'll all come back and do it one more night.

Thank you all. You were terrific tonight.

WISE: Thank you, Aaron.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Still to come, back to the real world, the soldiers who say they've already served their country, and the call they're getting to serve it again.

And we'll wrap it up, as we do, with morning papers. And I wonder what will be on the front page today. Gee. You think it might have to do with basketball? We shall find out.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Boy, that will take you back to the real world quick, won't it?

It is one thing, we suppose, to hear a member of the Reserves or the National Guard complain about being called up to active duty. These are people who drill each month. They're paid each month. It's a deal they made. But there's another group about whom simply calling whiners seems a bit unfair. They joined. They served. They fulfilled their agreement, or so they thought, until they checked the mailbox.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Todd Parrish can tell you exactly when he left the Army, eight years after he joined.

TODD PARRISH, FORMER U.S. ARMY OFFICER: Right. I choose not to be in the military anymore as of December 19, 2003.

BROWN: Rick Howell can tell you as well.

RICK HOWELL, FORMER U.S. ARMY MAJOR: I left the military in 1997 under a program called VSI. Basically, they were downsizing the military in an effort to balance the budget. I left the military under that program. And part of that stipulation was, I could not come back on active duty. I could not volunteer for the Reserves, active Reserves or active National Guard.

BROWN: But there's a catch-22. To the Army, they were still part of the Ready Reserves even after they quit. The Ready Reserves is a group that doesn't train, doesn't get paid, but can still be called up.

T. PARRISH: I did not volunteer to stay in the military. I believe at any point somebody makes a choice. And they're saying going back to 1992, when I was 19 years old, that I volunteered to stay in the military in definitely until 2024.

BROWN: In all, there are about 4,000 or so soldiers like Howell and Parrish who have received notices to report for active duty, these among the 110,000 members of the Ready Reserve the Pentagon says it still controls. Nearly 2,000 have requested exceptions or have appealed. Todd Parrish has filed a lawsuit.

MARK L. WAPLE, ATTORNEY FOR PARRISH: Congress decided in July of 1973 that the armed forces of the United States would be a volunteer force. Now, the Army is saying that Todd Parrish somehow volunteered to remain or to serve in the Reserves beyond his eight-year military service obligation.

BROWN: For its part, the Army has little sympathy. A spokesman says that officers are fully aware of their commitment to the Army. Legally, the Army has control over former officers who retire until they reach the age of 60, a surprise to many and to many a spouse as well.

COLETTE PARRISH, WIFE OF TODD: It was a big shock. We thought we were finished. Todd walked out to the mailbox on a Saturday. We were planning to go out that night. He walked back in with this devastated look on his face. And I thought he was kidding because he looked at me and he said, they have called me to active duty.

BROWN: So far, of the 2,500 Ready Reserve soldiers who were supposed to have shown up for refresher military training, nearly 800 have not. But the Army has agreed to let many of those soldiers stay at home, an option that, to date, has not been given to Todd Parrish.

T. PARRISH: And, at some point, you have to say to yourself, when is enough enough? And when am I stopped? What do I got to do to stop, to say, OK, he's a patriot; he served his country long enough; he has the right to move on with his life?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Another side of the story.

Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world on this Thanksgiving week.

We'll start with "The Christian Science Monitor." We haven't done "The Monitor" in a while. No particular reason for that that I can think of, but I'll work on it. "A Shortening List of Failing Schools. States Gauge Progress in Bush's Education Reforms and Debate What It Really Shows." That's sort of the question, I guess, is, do these tests actually prove anything? And it depends where you are on that side of the testing debate. We take no sides.

"Philadelphia Inquirer." Sport and violence in a lot of papers, as you would imagine, first, just violence. "One Killed, Three Hurt in School Violence." Has nothing to do with sport. But down here, "First Punches, Then Questions. Beer, Anger and Societal Changes May Have Been Behind the Friday Night Fight." I worry that we're all overthinking this a little bit.

"The Rocky" -- it's rare on television to be honest. "The Rocky Mountain News." "Tharp Tossed." This is the athletic director at the Colorado University, University of Colorado. "Athletic Director Denies Wrongdoing in Football Scandal." This had to do whether recruits to the university were taken to little sex parties and things.

"The Atlanta Journal Constitution." Down in the corner, I didn't know about this one. It got lost to the other violence, I guess. "Brawl Bumps Bowls For Tigers, Gamecocks." This was a football brawl between Clemson and South Carolina the other day.

This will bring you back to the real world, if you needed it. I don't. "Chattanooga Times-Free Press." "It's Real, Now, Boys. First Soldiers of the 278th on the Ground to Begin Year-long Deployment in Iraq." They must look at this goofball NBA thing and say, what's wrong with the world?

"The Detroit News"" how else would that paper lead? "Sports Fouls Out. Caught Up in Culture of Violence, Players and Fans Cross Line." "Chair Thrower Faces Felony Charge." Yes. Yes. I mean, they ought to suspend the players for the year. And the guy who did this, or the people, should go to jail or whatever. No, go to jail. I'm good on that.

"The San Francisco Examiner." "Record Traffic Predicted For Thanksgiving. Heaviest Congestion Since '95 Predicted For the State." OK.

"Chicago Sun-Times" ends it all. I don't do headlines much from them. This story is too much, though. "He Hunted Them Down" is their headline. These were the five or six hunters, deer hunters, that were murdered the other day.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago, please. The weather in Chicago tomorrow, please.

(CHIMES)

BROWN: OK. "Slap" is the answer. We'll just imagine there were chimes.

We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time to start thinking about what you're going to do at 7:00 in the morning.

Here's Soledad O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," millions of Americans on the move this week, as the holiday travel season kicks off. And for the nation's passenger train line, this is crunch time. Tomorrow, we go behind the scenes at Amtrak for an up-close look at everything that has to happen just right to protect against terrorists and make the trains run on time. Also tomorrow, how does the new U2 album stand up against the band's other classics? Toure gives us his long-awaited review.

CNN tomorrow, 7:00 Eastern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Thank you, Soledad.

Good to have you all with us tonight. We're all back here tomorrow in this holiday week. We hope you are, too.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" next for most of you.

Until tomorrow, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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