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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Interview With Specialist Robert Loria; Army Moves to Buy More Armored Humvees

Aired December 10, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening to you all again.
It was to us last night at the end of the program just a straight headline but it was a straight headline that made you want to know more, made you want to know how it could be. Was this some sort of mistake, a computer glitch? The answer, it turns out, is no. It was not a glitch at all. No computer messed this up, messed this young man up. Humans did.

So we begin tonight with Robert Loria's story and CNN's Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN DALLAS BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Last February, Army Specialist Robert Loria was helping rescue a fellow soldier, who had just been injured by a roadside bomb north of Baghdad.

Loria and a group of soldiers drove in, loaded the soldier's body in a Humvee but, as Loria started driving away, a second bomb detonated. Loria looked down and saw his left arm mangled and shrapnel wounds along the left side of his body.

SPC. ROBERT LORIA, WOUNDED SOLDIER: When they got me out of the -- full out of the vehicle and laid me on the ground the first things I said to them was I told them my wife was going to be pissed at me because I told her a long time ago that I would be back all right and I wouldn't get hurt and I felt like I lied to her.

LAVANDERA: Specialist Loria is getting used to life with part of an arm. Nerve damage has left him without feeling in his left foot but, as Loria prepared to discharge from the military after serving five years, he was told that he owed the Army more than $6,000 for pay the Army says he shouldn't have received and for travel expenses to get treatment. The bill also included $310 for equipment that Loria didn't bring back from Iraq, like a sleeping bag, suspenders and a rucksack, among other things.

R. LORIA: Didn't have anything to say to them. I didn't know what to say to them. I was pretty much in shock, you know, like they're like, hey, screw you, goodbye.

LAVANDERA: The Army even took his last paycheck and applied it to the debt. After that he still owed almost $2,000. Loria and his wife started to worry the 27-year-old specialist had no idea how he would afford to get back home to New York. Unsure what to do, Christine Loria started calling her local Congressman, a couple of U.S. Senators and their hometown newspaper.

CHRISTINE LORIA, WIFE OF SPC. ROBERT LORIA: He signed up for this because he wanted to serve his country. He wanted to do something he could be proud of and they're making it very hard for him to feel proud by trying to take more from him. What more do they want? What?

LAVANDERA: Right now the Army wants to get out of the spotlight on this one so they're making the debt disappear. An Army spokesman says: "These actions clearly demonstrate that once the command leadership is involved, the Army does its utmost to correct and satisfy the needs of the soldiers and their families." But the Lorias are left wondering why it was so hard to make this happen.

C. LORIA: Everyone should be shaking my husband's hand and saying "What can I do for you because of all you gave for me," not the reverse.

LAVANDERA: In a couple of days, Specialist Robert Loria will jump in his car and start driving home to New York. The best part of all is he'll be home for Christmas and have some money to spend on gifts.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Dallas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're joined tonight from Austin, Texas by Specialist Loria and, in Middletown, New York his wife and, as you could tell, very much his partner in all of this, Christine, good to have you both.

Robert, let's start with you on this. Just I'm a little confused about how they first told you you owed the money. Did someone come up and tell you this or did you get a piece of paper with this written on it? How do you find out something like that?

R. LORIA: Basically talking with the finance department what they're supposed to do is add up everything that you either haven't used or the leave that you haven't used, the clothing allowance you haven't used and it's all supposed to be tallied up and given back to you because you haven't used it. Basically, when I went to talk to these people, they basically blew me off and said "We can't do nothing for you. You owe the government $6,000."

BROWN: Did they seem at all embarrassed by having to tell you this under the circumstances?

R. LORIA: No. Actually, one of them cracked a joke and he thought it was pretty funny.

BROWN: Christine, I suspect you didn't think it was very funny at all.

C. LORIA: Not at all.

BROWN: How did you...

C. LORIA: It is not funny.

BROWN: You know, your husband is, I think you described him to us today as the sort of strong, quiet type. You obviously decided to do something about it. Do you believe if you had not gone to the local papers that nothing would have happened?

C. LORIA: Yes, I do. I believe that the military would have gotten away with this and I'm glad I didn't keep my big mouth shut either.

BROWN: Did someone suggest that maybe you ought to?

C. LORIA: Oh, yes, plenty of people did. There were some military officials that suggested that I should do so and some of them were very angry that I had opened it. Tough.

BROWN: Robert did -- right, I believe that. Robert, did you feel any of that anger down there? Do you think people were angry at you?

R. LORIA: I don't think they were directly angry at me. I think they were angry at the situation and I just happened to be in front of them, so I've seen a little bit. I didn't see, you know, I didn't hear it per se but I saw a little discomfort on some of the people's faces that this actually happened. I don't think they were mad directly at me. I think they were just mad at the situation.

BROWN: What situation were they mad at? Were they mad at the fact that it became public or that you were being hit with this $1,800 bill?

R. LORIA: Both, actually.

BROWN: Yes.

R. LORIA: I think they were mad at the fact that it got this far and that it went the way it did and, you know, and they're mad that it was made public, you know. If there's something that I messed up and, you know, it was made public, you know, I'd feel a little upset too about it.

BROWN: Tell me your status now. You're still technically in the Army, right?

R. LORIA: Technically. They have me on, oh, what do they call that? It's a form of leave. I'll stay on terminal leave until about mid-February and they'll send me my paperwork and I'll be discharged out of the military.

BROWN: And when will that happen? R. LORIA: In February, February 18th.

BROWN: And, Christine, when I looked at the headline yesterday I said to myself and to the people on the staff I know how these stories work. They're going to be all right. People are going to jump in and help. Have people jumped in and helped?

C. LORIA: Oh, they most definitely did and I can't thank these people enough.

BROWN: Tell me about it. What have they done?

C. LORIA: Well, like you had said before, I called my Congressman, Congressman Hinchey. I called Senator Hillary Clinton's office. I called Senator Schumer. I'm sorry.

BROWN: You're doing fine. Don't worry about it.

C. LORIA: And, you know, I called the newspapers. I called the "Clean" newspaper. I called anyone that would listen to me and...

BROWN: And as -- Christine, when people read the story in the paper today how have they reacted?

C. LORIA: Well, actually this morning I was woken up by the telephone ringing. It was an attorney that's in Goshen about 15, 20 minutes from where I live. His name is Michael Sussman (ph). He wanted to send my husband the money to come home because he was completely appalled by the story. He was touched and appalled at the same time and he just wanted to do whatever it took just to bring him home.

BROWN: Well...

C. LORIA: And I wasn't expected that kind of reaction at all because I'm so used to dealing with the military who really doesn't care.

BROWN: Robert, you're going to get home for Christmas. I think all of this other stuff aside, the money stuff aside, people watching this appreciate the service that you gave and the loss that you suffered and, despite it all, we hope that Christmas is terrific for both you and your wife. She's pretty terrific too.

R. LORIA: I know that.

BROWN: Thank you both. It's not easy to sit in front of these TV cameras. I know that.

R. LORIA: Oh, it was great. I love it.

BROWN: Thank you guys very much.

R. LORIA: Thank you.

C. LORIA: Thank you. BROWN: Specialist Loria, by the way, says that the Humvee he was in when the injury happened was not an armored type and now on to that and a gentle observation. Embarrassment, as I think we've just shown, is a powerful motivator.

Greed may be good, at least if you believe Gordon Gekko, but shame it turns out is even better, from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Army is moving to buy more armored Humvees and to see if other production lines can be accelerated. Just two days after a pointed question from this soldier put Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the spot about the lack of armor for military vehicles.

Army officials say they were surprised to hear from news reports that Armor Holdings of Jacksonville, Florida was prepared to sell the Pentagon 550 armored Humvees a month because originally the Army was told it could buy only 450 a month because of commitments to other customers.

Pentagon officials say the new Army Secretary Francis Harvey, who was sworn in less than a month ago, called the head of the company directly and is negotiating to buy all the Humvees the company can supply.

The company says it can produce another 100 Humvees a month by next March but wants to make sure it can accommodate the Marine Corps as well as other customers it did not identify.

Another company, ArmorWorks of Tempe, Arizona, says it could double production of armor plates that can be added to existing Humvees.

MATT SALMON, PRESIDENT, ARMORWORKS: We produce 300 kits a month. We could be doing 600 kits a month, so when you hear language from the Pentagon that we're doing everything humanly possible, I'm telling you that the industry base is being under utilized.

MCINTYRE: But the Army says it already has a backlog of armor kits for Humvees and can't install them any faster. Meanwhile, CNN has learned that the U.S. Army arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois was ordered just this week to resume around the clock shifts to make cab armor kits for five-ton trucks and fuel tankers, which is a critical need.

And, the Army secretary has created a new armor task force to examine all existing contracts to see if there are other opportunities to speed up production of armor or other ways to get it to the battlefield faster.

(on camera): Immediately upon returning from his overseas trip, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld went back to work at his Pentagon desk. Sources say he had a conversation with the new Army secretary about the armor crisis. What was said has not been disclosed.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That all started with one question the other day in Kuwait from a soldier.

Today also brought another brazen reminder of how crucial the Army is for the troops in Iraq. Usually we hear about IED attacks and the like after the fact. Rarely, if ever, do we see the carnage as it happens. One of the largest insurgent groups in the deadliest corner of the country has now filled that gap with videotape.

Here's CNN's Tim Lister.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM LISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Never before has an insurgent group produced such a comprehensive visual record of its operations. In a 40-minute video, the Islamic Army in Iraq shows a wide range of operations from remotely-controlled roadside bombs to shoulder-launched rocket attacks and attempts to bring down U.S. aircraft.

In this incident, the insurgents claim to have shot down a Chinook helicopter. One sequence includes a mortar attack on a U.S. base. Expecting return fire, the insurgents leave the area but keep their camera rolling. A graphic appears that says "Ten Minutes Later," and then the camera records incoming fire from coalition forces as they pinpoint the insurgents' position.

The video, which was quickly posted on several Islamic Web sites, specifies that some of the attacks were west of Baghdad and near Falluja. In one sequence, the insurgents appear to be arming an improvised roadside bomb. The next sequence shows traffic passing along the road and then amid cries of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), God is great, an armored car is blown up.

In another part of the video, a toddler is shown barely managing to hold an automatic weapon while the Arabic audio relates a poem from his father, which includes the lines "Stand by my son and seek martyrdom. Stand by my son and do your duty."

The Islamic Army in Iraq is one of the largest and best organized insurgent groups operating in the Sunni Triangle. This video seems designed to show just how audacious it's become.

Tim Lister, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Yes, I would say audacious, pretty close to the right word.

As of tonight, 1,288 American troops have been killed in Iraq. Two soldiers died today in an accident at an airfield in Mosul. A Marine was killed in action in Al Anbar Province, which includes Falluja.

With the deadline for the January elections approaching, the fear is that December will be as bloody or bloodier still than November.

If the videotape we just saw leaves any doubt that Americans aren't welcome by some in Iraq, the bitter divide over elections makes it abundantly clear; from Baghdad tonight, CNN's Karl Penhaul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "The army of the Prophet Mohammed is coming. America is the enemy of God" these demonstrators chant. Feelings are running high in the heart of Iraq's Sunni Triangle, hatred of the United States, loathing of the upcoming elections.

The message on the banner is plain. The faithful citizens of Burutz (ph) outrightly reject elections under the occupation. Friday prayers have just ended and several hundred Sunni men, maybe 1,000, join the anti-election protest. A cleric is joining in even though new laws mean they could be arrested if authorities suspect he's stoking U.S. sentiment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We reject these criminal acts carried out in the name of the great devil America. We completely reject these elections and will boycott them.

PENHAUL: This is one of the largest demonstrations to date backing the cause of Sunni political parties to boycott the elections until coalition armies pull out of Iraq.

Highlighting the religious split, leaders of Iraq's Shia majority Thursday unveiled a political alliance that will take part in January 30th elections and try to win control of the National Assembly. Iraq's Shia outnumber Sunnis about two-to-one but Saddam Hussein appointed fellow Sunnis to positions of power while ruthlessly crushing Shia opposition.

The elections next months were a long awaited chance to turn the tables. That may help explain why at least some Sunnis support the insurgents' campaign to disrupt preparations for the elections. "Fight them with your prayers and your rockets" he says. It's a story becoming all too common in Iraq, politics and religion converging with violence.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Some late and fascinating news out of Washington tonight. Bernard Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, has now withdrawn his name from consideration for the job of secretary of homeland security. Just a few moments ago, the White House released a letter from Mr. Kerik. In it he says he was honored to be considered but can't permit personal matters to interfere with what would have been his new job.

You'll recall there have been a lot of questions about Mr. Kerik since his nomination for homeland secretary was announced, how he managed his trip to Iraq where he was supposed to help train the Iraqi police force and principally the amount of money he made and it ran into the millions of dollars from contractors who would now do business with the Department of Homeland Security.

If and how any of those allegations played into Mr. Kerik's decision tonight, we do not know but we do know this. The president is again looking for a new head of the Department of Homeland Security.

And then there is this. In Virginia today, Sergeant Christian Engeldrum was buried at Arlington National Cemetery. The sergeant was a Bronx firefighter, a veteran of the first Gulf War. He was killed last month after his Humvee rolled over an explosive outside Baghdad.

He was the first New York City firefighter to die in Iraq. Remembered as a hero, a hero for helping in the rescue efforts on 9/11 when the World Trade Center collapsed and then for reenlisting in the Army National Guard to fight for a second time in Iraq.

Ahead on the program, reading the intelligence reform bill with an eye for what we might be giving up in the way of liberty for the promise of greater national security, a delicate balance always.

Also, is the federal government painting a prettier picture on dirty bomb attacks than it ought to? Is the planning realistic enough? We'll take a break first.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The week ends with the new intelligence bill just one step from becoming law. President Bush expected to sign it in short order. The bill was never just a simple reorganization of responsibilities in the intelligence community.

It also expanded the power to gather intelligence, to hold suspects without warrants and, as always is the case, it raises questions about the balance between two important and sometimes competing ideals, personal privacy and national security.

Here's CNN's Joe Johns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every time David Fathi (ph) flies, he gets stopped because due to a government mix-up, his name is on a federal no fly list. He's gotten an official letter that was supposed to clear him to fly but he says he's still getting hassled. How he's added his name to a lawsuit with other people in the same situation. DAVID FATHI: Now that it's happened over and over and over again and I know a little bit more about how this list works, it's frustrating. It's humiliating.

JOHNS: But it may be about to change. The new intelligence reform bill gives the Transportation Security Administration new powers to take control of no fly list problems and fix them but the bill also creates some new privacy concerns for Americans, first and foremost provisions to encourage information sharing between agencies, an idea highly promoted by Republicans and Democrats alike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I took this on as my mission to really have a Manhattan Project to upgrade technology and to put someone in charge of really blending this computer technology from agency to agency so we can share valuable information.

JOHNS: The concern is about people in government taking your personal information and spreading it around. To address that, the bill creates a new government Civil Liberties Board to review guidelines on how widely personal information can be spread through the government and to advise the president on anti-terrorism laws and policies that could affect basic freedom, such as the Patriot Act but some say the board doesn't have enough power to do anything. Critics include the ACLU, which happens to be where David Fathi works.

FATHI: I'm not optimistic.

JOHNS: Civil liberties advocates will be watching how some other provisions in the bill play out, including government-funded research into biometric screening in airports where personal characteristics, like fingerprints, are used as identifiers and expanded government surveillance powers to track unaffiliated so-called lone wolf suspects who are not connected to terrorist organizations. Still, supporters of the bill in both parties argue on balance the new provisions will gain public acceptance.

SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: I think the American people know and understand that the information gatherers that we have around the world are very professional people and that they are dealing with in a lot of cases the scum of the earth.

JOHNS (on camera): Many supporters of the bill say it's not perfect but a step in the right direction. Some activists say it will be a long time before we know whether it strikes the right balance between liberty and security.

Joe Johns, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: By now planning for the worst is another familiar part of the new normal. Planning realistically would seem best, so when it comes to one particular flavor of the worst, a radioactive bomb or a dirty bomb, is the federal government being realistic about how bad it might be; from Los Angeles tonight, CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A car bomb explodes in Los Angeles. It's a dirty bomb, a conventional explosive packed with radiation and this is a drill.

CHIEF MICHAEL FREEMAN, L.A. COUNTY FIRE DEPT.: The country national, state and local has mobilized and I doing all that's possible to be ready to respond in an effective manner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Units on scene are requesting immediate transport for four patients (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BUCKLEY: Once ambulances leave with casualties, hospitals will take over the doctor who came up with the procedures to handle contaminated patients in L.A. says the federal government needs to make it easier for doctors to learn how to properly treat dirty bomb victims with a central source of information.

DR. CAROL MARCUS, NUCLEAR MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: There are so many agencies that have a part of the responsibility that no one is completely in charge.

BUCKLEY: There has never been a dirty bomb attack, so experts can only theorize about the potential impacts using accidents, like this one in Brazil in 1987. Most believe the number of casualties will be limited to those exposed to the blast, the primary damage economic from decontamination efforts that could shut down entire neighborhoods.

The Department of Homeland Security and other federal agencies are currently working on guidelines to set clean up standards. Critics claim government documents leaked on the Internet, show the guidelines will expose the public to dangerous levels of radiation.

DANIEL HIRSCH, CMTE. TO BRIDGE THE GAP: This guidance proposes that after a dirty bomb they would leave behind so much radioactivity that the risk would be thousands of times greater than the maximum risk we permit for the nation's most contaminated sites, super fund sites.

BUCKLEY (on camera): Government officials overseeing the effort aren't commenting on the guidance until it's published but they insist that public safety was the most important concern for all of those working on the guidelines.

(voice-over): Guidelines they hope they'll never have to use.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program on this Friday night, we continue our look at child labor. Has the garment industry really cleaned itself up, a fact check coming up?

Also ahead, more on the alleged cover-up of clergy sex abuse in Los Angeles, what was said in secret, what the deposition reveals, a break first.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Janet Jackson's Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction, I love that phrase, was a watershed of sorts ratcheting up the debate over indecency in the country. The question tonight has the Olympic Games, long known as a family friendly event, been caught up in all the frenzy.

The trade magazine "Media Week" is reporting that the Federal Communications Commission has asked NBC for tapes of the opening ceremonies of the Summer Games, the request triggered by one or more complaints of indecency in Athens, Oh my! What the complainer found offensive is uncertain. Who made the complaint is unknown. We'll keep you posted.

Two stories we reported this week are still playing out and will be for quite some time. We've gotten a good deal of e-mail about both. And, tonight, we have more to report, beginning with child labor.

The other night, we talked with an executive in the garment industry who contended in no uncertain terms that his industry has cleaned itself up, is no longer complicit in exploiting children for the sake of business. He said, in fact, it couldn't happen anymore. The rules, he insisted, are too strict.

A statement worth checking, we thought.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): In 1996, Kathie Lee Gifford became the symbol for the abusive children in the garment industry after it was revealed her clothing line relied on child labor. Ms. Gifford was embarrassed. The industry promised change, and change there has been.

Workers have gotten older. But many allege the conditions they work in have remained the same.

CHARLES KERNAGHAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL LABOR COMMITTEE: You're not going to see 12- or 13-year-olds working in China or Bangladesh or Honduras, El Salvador. It's been wiped out. It's been wiped out by that terrific scandal around Ms. Gifford.

On the other hand, the workers who are there now are young girls, themselves young women, 16 years old, maybe to 23, and they're working often under slave labor conditions.

BAMA ATHREYA, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, NATIONAL LABOR RIGHTS FUND: Everywhere we go, we find that the local people complain and they say that's great. You guys have pushed Gap and you have pushed Nike, but you got to push Wal-Mart, because things are still the worst in the factories producing for Wal-Mart. BROWN: In many ways, because of its sheer size, Wal-Mart drives the market. The company told us today, "Wal-Mart prohibits child labor and we work hard to enforce this standard through a factory certification program that included more than 14,700 inspections this year."

The statement on: "When we discover unauthorized child labor, factories must discontinue this practice immediately. If they do not, they are permanently banned from supplying Wal-Mart."

But the company won't say specifically which factories it uses. And so there is simply no way to independently verify the effectiveness of the inspections.

KERNAGHAN: Workers in China smuggled out of the factory a cheat sheet they're given before Wal-Mart shows up at the factory. And they memorize 22 questions. And if they memorize those questions correctly, they get the equivalent of $6, which about three or four days wages. And they're given the answers to the questions. How many days a week do you work? Oh, we work five days. Do you work overtime? Never more than two hours a night. Do you treat you with respect? Oh, they treat us with great dignity and respect. How is your dorm? Beautiful, air -- we have lots of fans and lights. It's a joke.

BROWN: While there has been great progress within the garment industry, there is also concern that, in Wal-Mart's push to produce cheap garments, the price will be paid in harsh labor practices, if not by children, by teens just a few years older.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Another turn as well in the clergy sex abuse scandal involving Cardinal Roger Mahony in Los Angeles we reported on last night, details coming to light from a civil deposition the cardinal recently gave about his handling of alleged pedophile and abusive priests when he was the bishop of Stockton, California.

We'll take a break and we'll give you the details.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we were saying before the gremlins got us, there's another turn to tell in the clergy sex abuse story we started reporting on last night involving Cardinal Roger Mahony in Los Angeles, the largest Catholic archdiocese in the country. The details come from deposition the cardinal gave in a civil case regarding his handling of alleged pedophile and abusive priests when he was the bishop in Stockton, California, a generation ago.

As with last night, tonight's story reported by Drew Griffin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The deposition was taken at a secret location in downtown Los Angeles just days before Thanksgiving. It is now public record and attorneys are pointing to two previously unreported cases of abuse and the cardinal's actions in those cases as proof Roger Mahony has been inconsistent when deciding how to handle clergy abuse.

The focus is on two Mexican priests who were temporarily assigned to the Diocese of Stockton under then Bishop Mahony.

(on camera): When credible evidence of abuse was reported by those two priests, Cardinal Mahony testified in this deposition that he had them both removed from the diocese. One was deported back to Mexico. The other left voluntarily. It's an example of what should have been done, say attorneys for dozens of accusers, but they say it seems inconsistent with the cardinal's actions on numerous other cases of alleged abuse.

(voice-over): As CNN reported Thursday, Fathers Kevin Barmasse, Michael Baker, Carl Sutphin, Michael Wempe and Oliver O'Grady had all been reported to Mahony or the archdiocese as abusers, but all were given treatment and a second or even third chance.

In a CNN interview Thursday, the cardinal explained that was how clergy abuse was handled back then.

CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY, LOS ANGELES ARCHDIOCESE: And they really felt that this could be treated and people could be, in a sense, cured. It wasn't until we got to the mid-80s, early '90s, that professionals and others in this field finally decided that, wait a minute, there's a problem here. So they started then recommending to us restricted ministry.

GRIFFIN: But that doesn't seem to explain why the bishop was so tough on fathers Antonio Munoz and Antonio Camacho, both of whom were forced out of the priesthood, while so many more were not.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A jury in Northern California is deciding whether Scott Peterson should be executed for killing his wife. If he is sentenced to death, the execution will not happen soon and may not happen at all. The time between sentence and execution in California can run to 20 years.

In part, it seems because, as a society, we are no longer as certain as we once were about the guilt of everyone on death row. Barry Scheck has always had doubts. And his work, freeing the innocent, as part of the Innocence Project, may not be how you know him best, but it does remain his best work.

We talked life and death yesterday for our Friday conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you think the country is in any sense turning away from the death penalty?

BARRY SCHECK, ATTORNEY: Yes. I don't think there's any question about it. I think it's going to end in our lifetimes.

BROWN: Do you really?

SCHECK: Yes, I do. I feel very certain about it. And it's because it's bad public policy. And what's beginning to emerge now is that there are people who have been executed who didn't commit the crimes.

BROWN: Can we name them?

SCHECK: Can we name people that have been executed?

BROWN: Yes.

No, can we name an innocent person that has been executed?

SCHECK: Oh, I think that there...

BROWN: I mean, it's -- I guess my point here is, are we looking -- we're saying, well, look, there were 11 people on death row in Illinois that we know were wrongfully convicted.

SCHECK: Well, we know, since the reinstitution of death penalty, there have been 119 people taken off the row with new evidence of innocence, 15 of them with DNA testing. There are people that died in Texas, like David Spence. I think there's a good chance that he's innocent.

There was a person that was executed this February named Cameron Willingham. And "The Chicago Tribune" has just run a very persuasive article that bogus arson evidence was used to convict him of this arson murder. And it was just in February, and it was called to the attention of Governor Perry, and they ignored it.

BROWN: Governor Perry in Texas.

SCHECK: Governor Perry in Texas.

Yet, at the same time, just the other month, Ernest Willis was on death row, convicted of an arson murder. The same experts came forward with evidence showing that it was a bad analysis, that there was no scientific basis to it, and at least that prosecutor said, well, I think Willis is innocent. And he's been exonerated.

BROWN: Someone said to me once that if the standard is, we will never execute an innocent person, if that's the standard, then we should -- we have to give up the death penalty, because we can never be that certain.

SCHECK: Well, of course. And it's hubris to think that you wouldn't, but we're not even in that situation.

When you talk about good public policy, we're talking about lots of innocent people on death row. We're talking about probably a number who have been executed who were innocent. But just put that question aside. There's an intolerable risk, as the American Bar Association has said now for close to a decade, of convicting the innocent and executing them in this country, because of the terrible we go about the administration of capital punishment.

But there also is no doubt that the lawyers aren't up to the job and not getting adequate funding. There also is no doubt that the race of the victim is significant in terms of determining who gets death and who doesn't. It is also very clear that, depending on the level of lawyering that you get and the resource, many, many people are going to get life verdicts who might otherwise get death verdicts.

To me, the most impressive statistic of all is that, since 9/11, we've had I think it's 25 federal death penalty prosecutions. And these are heinous crimes, like, know, the Nichols case, and there have been 22 life verdicts or better.

BROWN: The Oklahoma City bombing case, for people...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHECK: Yes, the Oklahoma City bombing case.

Now, the difference is that, in the federal system, we pay the defense lawyers. We give them mitigation experts. A real-life case is presented to the jury. And I think, if a good life case is presented to the jury, very, very few people get executed.

BROWN: Actually, that case, to me, is -- the Terry Nichols case is a really interesting case, because here you had -- he may not have been the main player in the case, but he was a player in the case. You had it in a pretty clearly death qualified state, the state of Oklahoma. This played out in the state court in Oklahoma. And that jury came back and did not sentence him to death.

SCHECK: Now, that's extraordinary. And that is because he had very good lawyers.

BROWN: Yes.

SCHECK: And even though the state of Oklahoma didn't want to pay him as much as they deserved, they stuck with it. They did a great job in presenting the mitigation evidence. And even in Oklahoma, in, arguably, next to 9/11, maybe the worse crime in our history, the man got a life sentence.

BROWN: We'll a little bit talk more this. I need to take a break first. We'll continue with Barry Scheck in a moment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Continuing our conversation with Barry Scheck. Just one more death penalty question and then we'll move on to a couple of other things.

You said at the beginning it will end in our lifetime. Will it end in our lifetime because we as a country have gotten so squeamish about it or will it end because, ultimately, the courts will say, it's out of -- it's out of step with a civilized society?

SCHECK: Well, both.

I mean, the world has already reached that conclusion, all right? I mean, that's the way it looks in Europe, in Canada. But what's going to happen in this country is that, state by state, people are going to say, this game isn't worth the candle. Life without parole is as good a substitute. We have better uses for the law enforcement dollar, especially for something that doesn't deter, that results in a whole series of calamities, including conviction and execution of the innocent.

So, if, state by state, the death penalty begins to disappear, after a while, the court is going to say, pursuant to the Eighth Amendment, you can't just have a handful of states executing people, when all the other states say that they're not going for it.

BROWN: We'll talk about a few other things.

It's -- first of all, does it annoy you that probably 95 percent of the people who know who you are, know who you are because of the Simpson case?

SCHECK: Well, that's changing, actually.

BROWN: Well, what, are we down to 91?

SCHECK: No.

I mean, as co-director of the Innocence Project, when you're involved -- we have 153 people exonerated with post-conviction DNA testing and a lot those cases lead to big reforms in the criminal justice system, they kind of know me from both.

BROWN: The other thing Simpson was, was the kind of a beginning of trial and this trial on television and almost an obsession we have, we I think, particularly in the cable TV business and viewers have with these sorts of things. Is this an unhealthy obsession? Most obsessions are.

SCHECK: Yes, it is unhealthy.

I think that the problem has been the way televised trials have sort of created a new kind of coverage, where trials have become soap operas and television events. And I think, both as a legal, the legal profession and, frankly, journalists, have fallen into the trap of going for the soap opera, you know, all these food-fight shows, where everybody starts opining about what is going on in the case, like they're prosecuting or defending it. And they're not in the courtroom. They're not watching the testimony. It's extremely troubling.

BROWN: Well, in the -- honestly, in the post-Simpson era, there are very few judges who will allow cameras in the courtroom, if they have a choice.

SCHECK: Well, they don't like it.

BROWN: Yes. Nobody looked -- we can talk about why this is. I mean, I think there's plenty of blame, honestly, to go around. It was not the greatest judge I ever saw in my life in the way he managed the trial. And I get to do these opinion things.

But -- and I think, in some respects, that's unfortunate, because actually watching trials is a kind of cool and interesting thing to do, to see how the system works or does not work. But, apparently, we can't do it, all of us -- we can't -- you guys can't -- judges can't do it -- as if the camera were not there.

SCHECK: Well, you can't, but I think it's the coverage that really changes things.

If you watch a witness on television, even if you see a small sound bite, you start thinking you can make a judgment about the credibility of the witness. But you don't think that if you read about it in the newspaper.

BROWN: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Barry Scheck, the co-director of the Innocence Project on capital punishment and more. We'll check the morning papers. We may throw in a tabloid or two, it being Friday.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers around the country and around the world.

Remember this one? This is how we started the program tonight. This is yesterday's "Times Herald-Record." Actually, it's today's "Times Herald-Record," given that this is tomorrow morning's papers. But don't confusion yourself, Aaron.

"Abandoned" was the headline yesterday. Here's the headline in the same paper for tomorrow. "Public Outcry Ends Wounded Soldier's Plight. He's Coming Home." And there's Christine Loria. You met her earlier on the program. She did a nice job. It's not easy to sit in front of those cameras and do that. And she did a nice job by her guy, too.

"Stars and Stripes." "G.I. Pleads Guilty in Alleged Mercy Killing; 16-year-old Victim Was Severely Wounded in Sadr City Fighting." And the Sadr City fighting seems like a long time ago.

Over here, a story the has gotten very little attention. "Is Salary Rollback Enough to Save the NHL Season?" You probably didn't know this, but they haven't been playing hockey. The players offered to give up almost 25 percent of their salaries, 25 percent? And this is money that guns were pointed to the owners' heads to pay these people. Anyway, we'll see if that ends the lockout.

"The Army Times" leads as it should, I would think, "Armor Crisis. Vehicles, Soldiers Still Shortchanged on Protection. Why?" they ask.

And on that subject, "The Chattanooga Times Free Press," which has become a little bit a part of this story -- their reporter was involved in it -- also puts it on the front page. "Army in Talks to Speed Production of Humvee Armor."

A couple of tabloids now. I'm over here and I have to find them. I'm telling you, the tabloids, something -- you know, 10 years ago, I did this. They weren't so raunchy. Now I have to find the unraunchy ones.

"Florida Lawyer Suing God For Hurricane Damages." I don't believe this. "He could have prevented these storms. This is a pure case of depraved indifference." Got to crack down on these lawyers.

Here we go. "Politician Has Backbone Surgically Removed." I like that.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago is "placid."

We'll update the Bernard Kerik story after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We have a little more detail now on a breaking story we told you about earlier today.

Bernard Kerik, the former New York City politics commissioner, has withdrawn his name from consideration for the job of secretary of homeland security. In a statement, Mr. Kerik said that, as he was reviewing documents to prepare for his confirmation hearings, it seems he discovered that a nanny he employed and a housekeeper he employed may not have been a legal immigrant in the country. And, in any case, he had not paid taxes on the salary that he paid that person. And, on that basis, he said he was withdrawing the nomination.

There have been other questions raised about Mr. Kerik's nomination, but this is the one that he notes in his letter to the president. Mr. Bernard Kerik is out.

We'll see you next week. Have a good weekend. Good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 10, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening to you all again.
It was to us last night at the end of the program just a straight headline but it was a straight headline that made you want to know more, made you want to know how it could be. Was this some sort of mistake, a computer glitch? The answer, it turns out, is no. It was not a glitch at all. No computer messed this up, messed this young man up. Humans did.

So we begin tonight with Robert Loria's story and CNN's Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN DALLAS BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Last February, Army Specialist Robert Loria was helping rescue a fellow soldier, who had just been injured by a roadside bomb north of Baghdad.

Loria and a group of soldiers drove in, loaded the soldier's body in a Humvee but, as Loria started driving away, a second bomb detonated. Loria looked down and saw his left arm mangled and shrapnel wounds along the left side of his body.

SPC. ROBERT LORIA, WOUNDED SOLDIER: When they got me out of the -- full out of the vehicle and laid me on the ground the first things I said to them was I told them my wife was going to be pissed at me because I told her a long time ago that I would be back all right and I wouldn't get hurt and I felt like I lied to her.

LAVANDERA: Specialist Loria is getting used to life with part of an arm. Nerve damage has left him without feeling in his left foot but, as Loria prepared to discharge from the military after serving five years, he was told that he owed the Army more than $6,000 for pay the Army says he shouldn't have received and for travel expenses to get treatment. The bill also included $310 for equipment that Loria didn't bring back from Iraq, like a sleeping bag, suspenders and a rucksack, among other things.

R. LORIA: Didn't have anything to say to them. I didn't know what to say to them. I was pretty much in shock, you know, like they're like, hey, screw you, goodbye.

LAVANDERA: The Army even took his last paycheck and applied it to the debt. After that he still owed almost $2,000. Loria and his wife started to worry the 27-year-old specialist had no idea how he would afford to get back home to New York. Unsure what to do, Christine Loria started calling her local Congressman, a couple of U.S. Senators and their hometown newspaper.

CHRISTINE LORIA, WIFE OF SPC. ROBERT LORIA: He signed up for this because he wanted to serve his country. He wanted to do something he could be proud of and they're making it very hard for him to feel proud by trying to take more from him. What more do they want? What?

LAVANDERA: Right now the Army wants to get out of the spotlight on this one so they're making the debt disappear. An Army spokesman says: "These actions clearly demonstrate that once the command leadership is involved, the Army does its utmost to correct and satisfy the needs of the soldiers and their families." But the Lorias are left wondering why it was so hard to make this happen.

C. LORIA: Everyone should be shaking my husband's hand and saying "What can I do for you because of all you gave for me," not the reverse.

LAVANDERA: In a couple of days, Specialist Robert Loria will jump in his car and start driving home to New York. The best part of all is he'll be home for Christmas and have some money to spend on gifts.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Dallas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're joined tonight from Austin, Texas by Specialist Loria and, in Middletown, New York his wife and, as you could tell, very much his partner in all of this, Christine, good to have you both.

Robert, let's start with you on this. Just I'm a little confused about how they first told you you owed the money. Did someone come up and tell you this or did you get a piece of paper with this written on it? How do you find out something like that?

R. LORIA: Basically talking with the finance department what they're supposed to do is add up everything that you either haven't used or the leave that you haven't used, the clothing allowance you haven't used and it's all supposed to be tallied up and given back to you because you haven't used it. Basically, when I went to talk to these people, they basically blew me off and said "We can't do nothing for you. You owe the government $6,000."

BROWN: Did they seem at all embarrassed by having to tell you this under the circumstances?

R. LORIA: No. Actually, one of them cracked a joke and he thought it was pretty funny.

BROWN: Christine, I suspect you didn't think it was very funny at all.

C. LORIA: Not at all.

BROWN: How did you...

C. LORIA: It is not funny.

BROWN: You know, your husband is, I think you described him to us today as the sort of strong, quiet type. You obviously decided to do something about it. Do you believe if you had not gone to the local papers that nothing would have happened?

C. LORIA: Yes, I do. I believe that the military would have gotten away with this and I'm glad I didn't keep my big mouth shut either.

BROWN: Did someone suggest that maybe you ought to?

C. LORIA: Oh, yes, plenty of people did. There were some military officials that suggested that I should do so and some of them were very angry that I had opened it. Tough.

BROWN: Robert did -- right, I believe that. Robert, did you feel any of that anger down there? Do you think people were angry at you?

R. LORIA: I don't think they were directly angry at me. I think they were angry at the situation and I just happened to be in front of them, so I've seen a little bit. I didn't see, you know, I didn't hear it per se but I saw a little discomfort on some of the people's faces that this actually happened. I don't think they were mad directly at me. I think they were just mad at the situation.

BROWN: What situation were they mad at? Were they mad at the fact that it became public or that you were being hit with this $1,800 bill?

R. LORIA: Both, actually.

BROWN: Yes.

R. LORIA: I think they were mad at the fact that it got this far and that it went the way it did and, you know, and they're mad that it was made public, you know. If there's something that I messed up and, you know, it was made public, you know, I'd feel a little upset too about it.

BROWN: Tell me your status now. You're still technically in the Army, right?

R. LORIA: Technically. They have me on, oh, what do they call that? It's a form of leave. I'll stay on terminal leave until about mid-February and they'll send me my paperwork and I'll be discharged out of the military.

BROWN: And when will that happen? R. LORIA: In February, February 18th.

BROWN: And, Christine, when I looked at the headline yesterday I said to myself and to the people on the staff I know how these stories work. They're going to be all right. People are going to jump in and help. Have people jumped in and helped?

C. LORIA: Oh, they most definitely did and I can't thank these people enough.

BROWN: Tell me about it. What have they done?

C. LORIA: Well, like you had said before, I called my Congressman, Congressman Hinchey. I called Senator Hillary Clinton's office. I called Senator Schumer. I'm sorry.

BROWN: You're doing fine. Don't worry about it.

C. LORIA: And, you know, I called the newspapers. I called the "Clean" newspaper. I called anyone that would listen to me and...

BROWN: And as -- Christine, when people read the story in the paper today how have they reacted?

C. LORIA: Well, actually this morning I was woken up by the telephone ringing. It was an attorney that's in Goshen about 15, 20 minutes from where I live. His name is Michael Sussman (ph). He wanted to send my husband the money to come home because he was completely appalled by the story. He was touched and appalled at the same time and he just wanted to do whatever it took just to bring him home.

BROWN: Well...

C. LORIA: And I wasn't expected that kind of reaction at all because I'm so used to dealing with the military who really doesn't care.

BROWN: Robert, you're going to get home for Christmas. I think all of this other stuff aside, the money stuff aside, people watching this appreciate the service that you gave and the loss that you suffered and, despite it all, we hope that Christmas is terrific for both you and your wife. She's pretty terrific too.

R. LORIA: I know that.

BROWN: Thank you both. It's not easy to sit in front of these TV cameras. I know that.

R. LORIA: Oh, it was great. I love it.

BROWN: Thank you guys very much.

R. LORIA: Thank you.

C. LORIA: Thank you. BROWN: Specialist Loria, by the way, says that the Humvee he was in when the injury happened was not an armored type and now on to that and a gentle observation. Embarrassment, as I think we've just shown, is a powerful motivator.

Greed may be good, at least if you believe Gordon Gekko, but shame it turns out is even better, from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Army is moving to buy more armored Humvees and to see if other production lines can be accelerated. Just two days after a pointed question from this soldier put Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the spot about the lack of armor for military vehicles.

Army officials say they were surprised to hear from news reports that Armor Holdings of Jacksonville, Florida was prepared to sell the Pentagon 550 armored Humvees a month because originally the Army was told it could buy only 450 a month because of commitments to other customers.

Pentagon officials say the new Army Secretary Francis Harvey, who was sworn in less than a month ago, called the head of the company directly and is negotiating to buy all the Humvees the company can supply.

The company says it can produce another 100 Humvees a month by next March but wants to make sure it can accommodate the Marine Corps as well as other customers it did not identify.

Another company, ArmorWorks of Tempe, Arizona, says it could double production of armor plates that can be added to existing Humvees.

MATT SALMON, PRESIDENT, ARMORWORKS: We produce 300 kits a month. We could be doing 600 kits a month, so when you hear language from the Pentagon that we're doing everything humanly possible, I'm telling you that the industry base is being under utilized.

MCINTYRE: But the Army says it already has a backlog of armor kits for Humvees and can't install them any faster. Meanwhile, CNN has learned that the U.S. Army arsenal in Rock Island, Illinois was ordered just this week to resume around the clock shifts to make cab armor kits for five-ton trucks and fuel tankers, which is a critical need.

And, the Army secretary has created a new armor task force to examine all existing contracts to see if there are other opportunities to speed up production of armor or other ways to get it to the battlefield faster.

(on camera): Immediately upon returning from his overseas trip, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld went back to work at his Pentagon desk. Sources say he had a conversation with the new Army secretary about the armor crisis. What was said has not been disclosed.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That all started with one question the other day in Kuwait from a soldier.

Today also brought another brazen reminder of how crucial the Army is for the troops in Iraq. Usually we hear about IED attacks and the like after the fact. Rarely, if ever, do we see the carnage as it happens. One of the largest insurgent groups in the deadliest corner of the country has now filled that gap with videotape.

Here's CNN's Tim Lister.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM LISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Never before has an insurgent group produced such a comprehensive visual record of its operations. In a 40-minute video, the Islamic Army in Iraq shows a wide range of operations from remotely-controlled roadside bombs to shoulder-launched rocket attacks and attempts to bring down U.S. aircraft.

In this incident, the insurgents claim to have shot down a Chinook helicopter. One sequence includes a mortar attack on a U.S. base. Expecting return fire, the insurgents leave the area but keep their camera rolling. A graphic appears that says "Ten Minutes Later," and then the camera records incoming fire from coalition forces as they pinpoint the insurgents' position.

The video, which was quickly posted on several Islamic Web sites, specifies that some of the attacks were west of Baghdad and near Falluja. In one sequence, the insurgents appear to be arming an improvised roadside bomb. The next sequence shows traffic passing along the road and then amid cries of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), God is great, an armored car is blown up.

In another part of the video, a toddler is shown barely managing to hold an automatic weapon while the Arabic audio relates a poem from his father, which includes the lines "Stand by my son and seek martyrdom. Stand by my son and do your duty."

The Islamic Army in Iraq is one of the largest and best organized insurgent groups operating in the Sunni Triangle. This video seems designed to show just how audacious it's become.

Tim Lister, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Yes, I would say audacious, pretty close to the right word.

As of tonight, 1,288 American troops have been killed in Iraq. Two soldiers died today in an accident at an airfield in Mosul. A Marine was killed in action in Al Anbar Province, which includes Falluja.

With the deadline for the January elections approaching, the fear is that December will be as bloody or bloodier still than November.

If the videotape we just saw leaves any doubt that Americans aren't welcome by some in Iraq, the bitter divide over elections makes it abundantly clear; from Baghdad tonight, CNN's Karl Penhaul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "The army of the Prophet Mohammed is coming. America is the enemy of God" these demonstrators chant. Feelings are running high in the heart of Iraq's Sunni Triangle, hatred of the United States, loathing of the upcoming elections.

The message on the banner is plain. The faithful citizens of Burutz (ph) outrightly reject elections under the occupation. Friday prayers have just ended and several hundred Sunni men, maybe 1,000, join the anti-election protest. A cleric is joining in even though new laws mean they could be arrested if authorities suspect he's stoking U.S. sentiment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We reject these criminal acts carried out in the name of the great devil America. We completely reject these elections and will boycott them.

PENHAUL: This is one of the largest demonstrations to date backing the cause of Sunni political parties to boycott the elections until coalition armies pull out of Iraq.

Highlighting the religious split, leaders of Iraq's Shia majority Thursday unveiled a political alliance that will take part in January 30th elections and try to win control of the National Assembly. Iraq's Shia outnumber Sunnis about two-to-one but Saddam Hussein appointed fellow Sunnis to positions of power while ruthlessly crushing Shia opposition.

The elections next months were a long awaited chance to turn the tables. That may help explain why at least some Sunnis support the insurgents' campaign to disrupt preparations for the elections. "Fight them with your prayers and your rockets" he says. It's a story becoming all too common in Iraq, politics and religion converging with violence.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Some late and fascinating news out of Washington tonight. Bernard Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, has now withdrawn his name from consideration for the job of secretary of homeland security. Just a few moments ago, the White House released a letter from Mr. Kerik. In it he says he was honored to be considered but can't permit personal matters to interfere with what would have been his new job.

You'll recall there have been a lot of questions about Mr. Kerik since his nomination for homeland secretary was announced, how he managed his trip to Iraq where he was supposed to help train the Iraqi police force and principally the amount of money he made and it ran into the millions of dollars from contractors who would now do business with the Department of Homeland Security.

If and how any of those allegations played into Mr. Kerik's decision tonight, we do not know but we do know this. The president is again looking for a new head of the Department of Homeland Security.

And then there is this. In Virginia today, Sergeant Christian Engeldrum was buried at Arlington National Cemetery. The sergeant was a Bronx firefighter, a veteran of the first Gulf War. He was killed last month after his Humvee rolled over an explosive outside Baghdad.

He was the first New York City firefighter to die in Iraq. Remembered as a hero, a hero for helping in the rescue efforts on 9/11 when the World Trade Center collapsed and then for reenlisting in the Army National Guard to fight for a second time in Iraq.

Ahead on the program, reading the intelligence reform bill with an eye for what we might be giving up in the way of liberty for the promise of greater national security, a delicate balance always.

Also, is the federal government painting a prettier picture on dirty bomb attacks than it ought to? Is the planning realistic enough? We'll take a break first.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The week ends with the new intelligence bill just one step from becoming law. President Bush expected to sign it in short order. The bill was never just a simple reorganization of responsibilities in the intelligence community.

It also expanded the power to gather intelligence, to hold suspects without warrants and, as always is the case, it raises questions about the balance between two important and sometimes competing ideals, personal privacy and national security.

Here's CNN's Joe Johns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every time David Fathi (ph) flies, he gets stopped because due to a government mix-up, his name is on a federal no fly list. He's gotten an official letter that was supposed to clear him to fly but he says he's still getting hassled. How he's added his name to a lawsuit with other people in the same situation. DAVID FATHI: Now that it's happened over and over and over again and I know a little bit more about how this list works, it's frustrating. It's humiliating.

JOHNS: But it may be about to change. The new intelligence reform bill gives the Transportation Security Administration new powers to take control of no fly list problems and fix them but the bill also creates some new privacy concerns for Americans, first and foremost provisions to encourage information sharing between agencies, an idea highly promoted by Republicans and Democrats alike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I took this on as my mission to really have a Manhattan Project to upgrade technology and to put someone in charge of really blending this computer technology from agency to agency so we can share valuable information.

JOHNS: The concern is about people in government taking your personal information and spreading it around. To address that, the bill creates a new government Civil Liberties Board to review guidelines on how widely personal information can be spread through the government and to advise the president on anti-terrorism laws and policies that could affect basic freedom, such as the Patriot Act but some say the board doesn't have enough power to do anything. Critics include the ACLU, which happens to be where David Fathi works.

FATHI: I'm not optimistic.

JOHNS: Civil liberties advocates will be watching how some other provisions in the bill play out, including government-funded research into biometric screening in airports where personal characteristics, like fingerprints, are used as identifiers and expanded government surveillance powers to track unaffiliated so-called lone wolf suspects who are not connected to terrorist organizations. Still, supporters of the bill in both parties argue on balance the new provisions will gain public acceptance.

SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: I think the American people know and understand that the information gatherers that we have around the world are very professional people and that they are dealing with in a lot of cases the scum of the earth.

JOHNS (on camera): Many supporters of the bill say it's not perfect but a step in the right direction. Some activists say it will be a long time before we know whether it strikes the right balance between liberty and security.

Joe Johns, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: By now planning for the worst is another familiar part of the new normal. Planning realistically would seem best, so when it comes to one particular flavor of the worst, a radioactive bomb or a dirty bomb, is the federal government being realistic about how bad it might be; from Los Angeles tonight, CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A car bomb explodes in Los Angeles. It's a dirty bomb, a conventional explosive packed with radiation and this is a drill.

CHIEF MICHAEL FREEMAN, L.A. COUNTY FIRE DEPT.: The country national, state and local has mobilized and I doing all that's possible to be ready to respond in an effective manner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Units on scene are requesting immediate transport for four patients (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BUCKLEY: Once ambulances leave with casualties, hospitals will take over the doctor who came up with the procedures to handle contaminated patients in L.A. says the federal government needs to make it easier for doctors to learn how to properly treat dirty bomb victims with a central source of information.

DR. CAROL MARCUS, NUCLEAR MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: There are so many agencies that have a part of the responsibility that no one is completely in charge.

BUCKLEY: There has never been a dirty bomb attack, so experts can only theorize about the potential impacts using accidents, like this one in Brazil in 1987. Most believe the number of casualties will be limited to those exposed to the blast, the primary damage economic from decontamination efforts that could shut down entire neighborhoods.

The Department of Homeland Security and other federal agencies are currently working on guidelines to set clean up standards. Critics claim government documents leaked on the Internet, show the guidelines will expose the public to dangerous levels of radiation.

DANIEL HIRSCH, CMTE. TO BRIDGE THE GAP: This guidance proposes that after a dirty bomb they would leave behind so much radioactivity that the risk would be thousands of times greater than the maximum risk we permit for the nation's most contaminated sites, super fund sites.

BUCKLEY (on camera): Government officials overseeing the effort aren't commenting on the guidance until it's published but they insist that public safety was the most important concern for all of those working on the guidelines.

(voice-over): Guidelines they hope they'll never have to use.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program on this Friday night, we continue our look at child labor. Has the garment industry really cleaned itself up, a fact check coming up?

Also ahead, more on the alleged cover-up of clergy sex abuse in Los Angeles, what was said in secret, what the deposition reveals, a break first.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Janet Jackson's Super Bowl wardrobe malfunction, I love that phrase, was a watershed of sorts ratcheting up the debate over indecency in the country. The question tonight has the Olympic Games, long known as a family friendly event, been caught up in all the frenzy.

The trade magazine "Media Week" is reporting that the Federal Communications Commission has asked NBC for tapes of the opening ceremonies of the Summer Games, the request triggered by one or more complaints of indecency in Athens, Oh my! What the complainer found offensive is uncertain. Who made the complaint is unknown. We'll keep you posted.

Two stories we reported this week are still playing out and will be for quite some time. We've gotten a good deal of e-mail about both. And, tonight, we have more to report, beginning with child labor.

The other night, we talked with an executive in the garment industry who contended in no uncertain terms that his industry has cleaned itself up, is no longer complicit in exploiting children for the sake of business. He said, in fact, it couldn't happen anymore. The rules, he insisted, are too strict.

A statement worth checking, we thought.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): In 1996, Kathie Lee Gifford became the symbol for the abusive children in the garment industry after it was revealed her clothing line relied on child labor. Ms. Gifford was embarrassed. The industry promised change, and change there has been.

Workers have gotten older. But many allege the conditions they work in have remained the same.

CHARLES KERNAGHAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL LABOR COMMITTEE: You're not going to see 12- or 13-year-olds working in China or Bangladesh or Honduras, El Salvador. It's been wiped out. It's been wiped out by that terrific scandal around Ms. Gifford.

On the other hand, the workers who are there now are young girls, themselves young women, 16 years old, maybe to 23, and they're working often under slave labor conditions.

BAMA ATHREYA, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, NATIONAL LABOR RIGHTS FUND: Everywhere we go, we find that the local people complain and they say that's great. You guys have pushed Gap and you have pushed Nike, but you got to push Wal-Mart, because things are still the worst in the factories producing for Wal-Mart. BROWN: In many ways, because of its sheer size, Wal-Mart drives the market. The company told us today, "Wal-Mart prohibits child labor and we work hard to enforce this standard through a factory certification program that included more than 14,700 inspections this year."

The statement on: "When we discover unauthorized child labor, factories must discontinue this practice immediately. If they do not, they are permanently banned from supplying Wal-Mart."

But the company won't say specifically which factories it uses. And so there is simply no way to independently verify the effectiveness of the inspections.

KERNAGHAN: Workers in China smuggled out of the factory a cheat sheet they're given before Wal-Mart shows up at the factory. And they memorize 22 questions. And if they memorize those questions correctly, they get the equivalent of $6, which about three or four days wages. And they're given the answers to the questions. How many days a week do you work? Oh, we work five days. Do you work overtime? Never more than two hours a night. Do you treat you with respect? Oh, they treat us with great dignity and respect. How is your dorm? Beautiful, air -- we have lots of fans and lights. It's a joke.

BROWN: While there has been great progress within the garment industry, there is also concern that, in Wal-Mart's push to produce cheap garments, the price will be paid in harsh labor practices, if not by children, by teens just a few years older.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Another turn as well in the clergy sex abuse scandal involving Cardinal Roger Mahony in Los Angeles we reported on last night, details coming to light from a civil deposition the cardinal recently gave about his handling of alleged pedophile and abusive priests when he was the bishop of Stockton, California.

We'll take a break and we'll give you the details.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we were saying before the gremlins got us, there's another turn to tell in the clergy sex abuse story we started reporting on last night involving Cardinal Roger Mahony in Los Angeles, the largest Catholic archdiocese in the country. The details come from deposition the cardinal gave in a civil case regarding his handling of alleged pedophile and abusive priests when he was the bishop in Stockton, California, a generation ago.

As with last night, tonight's story reported by Drew Griffin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The deposition was taken at a secret location in downtown Los Angeles just days before Thanksgiving. It is now public record and attorneys are pointing to two previously unreported cases of abuse and the cardinal's actions in those cases as proof Roger Mahony has been inconsistent when deciding how to handle clergy abuse.

The focus is on two Mexican priests who were temporarily assigned to the Diocese of Stockton under then Bishop Mahony.

(on camera): When credible evidence of abuse was reported by those two priests, Cardinal Mahony testified in this deposition that he had them both removed from the diocese. One was deported back to Mexico. The other left voluntarily. It's an example of what should have been done, say attorneys for dozens of accusers, but they say it seems inconsistent with the cardinal's actions on numerous other cases of alleged abuse.

(voice-over): As CNN reported Thursday, Fathers Kevin Barmasse, Michael Baker, Carl Sutphin, Michael Wempe and Oliver O'Grady had all been reported to Mahony or the archdiocese as abusers, but all were given treatment and a second or even third chance.

In a CNN interview Thursday, the cardinal explained that was how clergy abuse was handled back then.

CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY, LOS ANGELES ARCHDIOCESE: And they really felt that this could be treated and people could be, in a sense, cured. It wasn't until we got to the mid-80s, early '90s, that professionals and others in this field finally decided that, wait a minute, there's a problem here. So they started then recommending to us restricted ministry.

GRIFFIN: But that doesn't seem to explain why the bishop was so tough on fathers Antonio Munoz and Antonio Camacho, both of whom were forced out of the priesthood, while so many more were not.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A jury in Northern California is deciding whether Scott Peterson should be executed for killing his wife. If he is sentenced to death, the execution will not happen soon and may not happen at all. The time between sentence and execution in California can run to 20 years.

In part, it seems because, as a society, we are no longer as certain as we once were about the guilt of everyone on death row. Barry Scheck has always had doubts. And his work, freeing the innocent, as part of the Innocence Project, may not be how you know him best, but it does remain his best work.

We talked life and death yesterday for our Friday conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you think the country is in any sense turning away from the death penalty?

BARRY SCHECK, ATTORNEY: Yes. I don't think there's any question about it. I think it's going to end in our lifetimes.

BROWN: Do you really?

SCHECK: Yes, I do. I feel very certain about it. And it's because it's bad public policy. And what's beginning to emerge now is that there are people who have been executed who didn't commit the crimes.

BROWN: Can we name them?

SCHECK: Can we name people that have been executed?

BROWN: Yes.

No, can we name an innocent person that has been executed?

SCHECK: Oh, I think that there...

BROWN: I mean, it's -- I guess my point here is, are we looking -- we're saying, well, look, there were 11 people on death row in Illinois that we know were wrongfully convicted.

SCHECK: Well, we know, since the reinstitution of death penalty, there have been 119 people taken off the row with new evidence of innocence, 15 of them with DNA testing. There are people that died in Texas, like David Spence. I think there's a good chance that he's innocent.

There was a person that was executed this February named Cameron Willingham. And "The Chicago Tribune" has just run a very persuasive article that bogus arson evidence was used to convict him of this arson murder. And it was just in February, and it was called to the attention of Governor Perry, and they ignored it.

BROWN: Governor Perry in Texas.

SCHECK: Governor Perry in Texas.

Yet, at the same time, just the other month, Ernest Willis was on death row, convicted of an arson murder. The same experts came forward with evidence showing that it was a bad analysis, that there was no scientific basis to it, and at least that prosecutor said, well, I think Willis is innocent. And he's been exonerated.

BROWN: Someone said to me once that if the standard is, we will never execute an innocent person, if that's the standard, then we should -- we have to give up the death penalty, because we can never be that certain.

SCHECK: Well, of course. And it's hubris to think that you wouldn't, but we're not even in that situation.

When you talk about good public policy, we're talking about lots of innocent people on death row. We're talking about probably a number who have been executed who were innocent. But just put that question aside. There's an intolerable risk, as the American Bar Association has said now for close to a decade, of convicting the innocent and executing them in this country, because of the terrible we go about the administration of capital punishment.

But there also is no doubt that the lawyers aren't up to the job and not getting adequate funding. There also is no doubt that the race of the victim is significant in terms of determining who gets death and who doesn't. It is also very clear that, depending on the level of lawyering that you get and the resource, many, many people are going to get life verdicts who might otherwise get death verdicts.

To me, the most impressive statistic of all is that, since 9/11, we've had I think it's 25 federal death penalty prosecutions. And these are heinous crimes, like, know, the Nichols case, and there have been 22 life verdicts or better.

BROWN: The Oklahoma City bombing case, for people...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHECK: Yes, the Oklahoma City bombing case.

Now, the difference is that, in the federal system, we pay the defense lawyers. We give them mitigation experts. A real-life case is presented to the jury. And I think, if a good life case is presented to the jury, very, very few people get executed.

BROWN: Actually, that case, to me, is -- the Terry Nichols case is a really interesting case, because here you had -- he may not have been the main player in the case, but he was a player in the case. You had it in a pretty clearly death qualified state, the state of Oklahoma. This played out in the state court in Oklahoma. And that jury came back and did not sentence him to death.

SCHECK: Now, that's extraordinary. And that is because he had very good lawyers.

BROWN: Yes.

SCHECK: And even though the state of Oklahoma didn't want to pay him as much as they deserved, they stuck with it. They did a great job in presenting the mitigation evidence. And even in Oklahoma, in, arguably, next to 9/11, maybe the worse crime in our history, the man got a life sentence.

BROWN: We'll a little bit talk more this. I need to take a break first. We'll continue with Barry Scheck in a moment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Continuing our conversation with Barry Scheck. Just one more death penalty question and then we'll move on to a couple of other things.

You said at the beginning it will end in our lifetime. Will it end in our lifetime because we as a country have gotten so squeamish about it or will it end because, ultimately, the courts will say, it's out of -- it's out of step with a civilized society?

SCHECK: Well, both.

I mean, the world has already reached that conclusion, all right? I mean, that's the way it looks in Europe, in Canada. But what's going to happen in this country is that, state by state, people are going to say, this game isn't worth the candle. Life without parole is as good a substitute. We have better uses for the law enforcement dollar, especially for something that doesn't deter, that results in a whole series of calamities, including conviction and execution of the innocent.

So, if, state by state, the death penalty begins to disappear, after a while, the court is going to say, pursuant to the Eighth Amendment, you can't just have a handful of states executing people, when all the other states say that they're not going for it.

BROWN: We'll talk about a few other things.

It's -- first of all, does it annoy you that probably 95 percent of the people who know who you are, know who you are because of the Simpson case?

SCHECK: Well, that's changing, actually.

BROWN: Well, what, are we down to 91?

SCHECK: No.

I mean, as co-director of the Innocence Project, when you're involved -- we have 153 people exonerated with post-conviction DNA testing and a lot those cases lead to big reforms in the criminal justice system, they kind of know me from both.

BROWN: The other thing Simpson was, was the kind of a beginning of trial and this trial on television and almost an obsession we have, we I think, particularly in the cable TV business and viewers have with these sorts of things. Is this an unhealthy obsession? Most obsessions are.

SCHECK: Yes, it is unhealthy.

I think that the problem has been the way televised trials have sort of created a new kind of coverage, where trials have become soap operas and television events. And I think, both as a legal, the legal profession and, frankly, journalists, have fallen into the trap of going for the soap opera, you know, all these food-fight shows, where everybody starts opining about what is going on in the case, like they're prosecuting or defending it. And they're not in the courtroom. They're not watching the testimony. It's extremely troubling.

BROWN: Well, in the -- honestly, in the post-Simpson era, there are very few judges who will allow cameras in the courtroom, if they have a choice.

SCHECK: Well, they don't like it.

BROWN: Yes. Nobody looked -- we can talk about why this is. I mean, I think there's plenty of blame, honestly, to go around. It was not the greatest judge I ever saw in my life in the way he managed the trial. And I get to do these opinion things.

But -- and I think, in some respects, that's unfortunate, because actually watching trials is a kind of cool and interesting thing to do, to see how the system works or does not work. But, apparently, we can't do it, all of us -- we can't -- you guys can't -- judges can't do it -- as if the camera were not there.

SCHECK: Well, you can't, but I think it's the coverage that really changes things.

If you watch a witness on television, even if you see a small sound bite, you start thinking you can make a judgment about the credibility of the witness. But you don't think that if you read about it in the newspaper.

BROWN: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Barry Scheck, the co-director of the Innocence Project on capital punishment and more. We'll check the morning papers. We may throw in a tabloid or two, it being Friday.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers around the country and around the world.

Remember this one? This is how we started the program tonight. This is yesterday's "Times Herald-Record." Actually, it's today's "Times Herald-Record," given that this is tomorrow morning's papers. But don't confusion yourself, Aaron.

"Abandoned" was the headline yesterday. Here's the headline in the same paper for tomorrow. "Public Outcry Ends Wounded Soldier's Plight. He's Coming Home." And there's Christine Loria. You met her earlier on the program. She did a nice job. It's not easy to sit in front of those cameras and do that. And she did a nice job by her guy, too.

"Stars and Stripes." "G.I. Pleads Guilty in Alleged Mercy Killing; 16-year-old Victim Was Severely Wounded in Sadr City Fighting." And the Sadr City fighting seems like a long time ago.

Over here, a story the has gotten very little attention. "Is Salary Rollback Enough to Save the NHL Season?" You probably didn't know this, but they haven't been playing hockey. The players offered to give up almost 25 percent of their salaries, 25 percent? And this is money that guns were pointed to the owners' heads to pay these people. Anyway, we'll see if that ends the lockout.

"The Army Times" leads as it should, I would think, "Armor Crisis. Vehicles, Soldiers Still Shortchanged on Protection. Why?" they ask.

And on that subject, "The Chattanooga Times Free Press," which has become a little bit a part of this story -- their reporter was involved in it -- also puts it on the front page. "Army in Talks to Speed Production of Humvee Armor."

A couple of tabloids now. I'm over here and I have to find them. I'm telling you, the tabloids, something -- you know, 10 years ago, I did this. They weren't so raunchy. Now I have to find the unraunchy ones.

"Florida Lawyer Suing God For Hurricane Damages." I don't believe this. "He could have prevented these storms. This is a pure case of depraved indifference." Got to crack down on these lawyers.

Here we go. "Politician Has Backbone Surgically Removed." I like that.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago is "placid."

We'll update the Bernard Kerik story after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We have a little more detail now on a breaking story we told you about earlier today.

Bernard Kerik, the former New York City politics commissioner, has withdrawn his name from consideration for the job of secretary of homeland security. In a statement, Mr. Kerik said that, as he was reviewing documents to prepare for his confirmation hearings, it seems he discovered that a nanny he employed and a housekeeper he employed may not have been a legal immigrant in the country. And, in any case, he had not paid taxes on the salary that he paid that person. And, on that basis, he said he was withdrawing the nomination.

There have been other questions raised about Mr. Kerik's nomination, but this is the one that he notes in his letter to the president. Mr. Bernard Kerik is out.

We'll see you next week. Have a good weekend. Good night for all of us.

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