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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Remembering Johnny Carson; Bush Admin Expected to Seek Additional $80 Billion to Fund Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan
Aired January 24, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
For 30 years the country couldn't get enough of Johnny Carson and tonight in some ways we can't either. One of the ways you knew you were growing up, if you're my age, is if you got to stay up late to watch the monologue. So, tonight we're joined by people who knew him and why we seemed to love him so if we didn't really know him at all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): To say that he was legendary, incomparable or even peerless just doesn't seem to capture the magic of Johnny Carson or provide an accurate gauge of the impact he had, not only on American television, but on American culture.
We try in the hour ahead joined by Dick Cavett, a writer for "The Tonight Show" in the '60s, who later competed against Carson in the late night TV wars. Then we'll talk with comedian and actor Charles Grodin, a regular Carson guest for two decades and others too who knew him and were launched by him, the latter in truth more common than the former.
Of other things today, the Iraqi election only a week away now, will they go to the polls or not? We'll hear from the people in Tikrit, the city that was Saddam's hometown.
And, it was the picture that brought home the horror of Columbine, in our anniversary series then and now we catch up with a student, now a young man, who refused to die that awful day nearly six years ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: All that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin though with the passing of Johnny Carson. He died, as most of you know now, over the weekend of emphysema at 79. Details of the funeral are being kept private, nor will there be a public memorial, which is not to say there hasn't been a public outpouring and there has. This is the way it looked today in Hollywood.
Thirty years is a long time to be a fixture of American life even though it's been more than a decade since we watched him say goodbye, 30 years beginning when network television and we were just kids.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNNY CARSON: I am curious period.
BROWN (voice-over): It's not as if he didn't have big shoes to fill that first night in March of '62.
CARSON: Portions of "The Tonight Show" will be heard.
BROWN: It's not as if he didn't have the chops to do it.
Jack Parr, whose show it was for years, had made a name for himself and a niche for the program by speaking his mind. For the next three decades, Johnny Carson would do the same by speaking ours.
CARSON: There's only one bathroom in the White House.
BROWN: Whether this was the essential truth about Mr. Carson or simply a pretty fair trick on his part is hard to say, hard to say about a young man who made his bones with slight of hand, then made it pay with slight of word. Magician ever after, he kept the machinery hidden and rarely did it fail him and, when it did, well that was magic too. Behold the vanishing host who disappears into the moment then reappears right on the beat.
CARSON: I didn't even know you were Jewish.
BROWN: That gifted timing soon acquired the gift of tone and taste, some perhaps generational, some no doubt geographical. Whether in New York or later in Los Angeles, there was always a bit of Corning, Iowa in John William Carson. It gave him leeway and license which he always made use of but rarely, if ever, exceeded. Still, when millions of viewers laughed there's usually a laughing stock often political.
CARSON: Jerry Brown, you may have heard yesterday, went whitewater rafting with two members of warring gang members here in Los Angeles. True, he took them on a whitewater rafting trip. They didn't want to go but he took them.
Do you get the feeling that Dan Quayle's golf bag doesn't have a full set of irons?
BROWN: Democrat or Republican, it didn't matter.
CARSON: Senator and Mrs. Kennedy are expecting their tenth child.
BROWN: If you won or lost Johnny Carson, it was said, you won or lost America.
ED MCMAHON: Carnac, the Magnificent.
BROWN: He denied it just as he denied to set the tone for pranksters and wits for a generation or so and subversive as he was for network television, it was still after all network television, so hipster, yes, iffy, never, iffy's (ph) are responsible, as Mr. Carson once was, for 17 percent of NBC's profits.
The counter culture rarely leaves a void in the broader culture nor does it set off a corporate soap opera over who will succeed him, one that's playing out even to this day but if it bothered Mr. Carson he rarely let it show, magician almost to the end he kept the machinery hidden almost.
(BETTE MIDLER ON JOHNNY CARSON)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, how did this self-described loner become America's best late night company, some thoughts tonight from CNN's Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): What's the secret? How do you wear so well on the American public that they welcome you into their homes night after night more than 4,000 "Tonight" shows over a span of 30 years with the same catch phrases?
CARSON: How strange is it?
GREENFIELD: ...the same banter with the band.
CARSON: Are we wearing the same outfit?
GREENFIELD: The same cast of characters.
CARSON: "Turner and Hooch."
MCMAHON: "Turner and Hooch."
CARSON: What's the rudest thing you can do to a girl in a church?
What are we doing here? (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)
GREENFIELD: Well, for one thing, it helps if you're from the Heartland like those who came before, Will Rogers, Arthur Godfrey, Jack Parr. It brings a comfort level. Sure, the comedians you showcase and encourage can embody the outsider but not the host, not the one who gains entry into millions of living rooms.
What you bring to the occasion is a pleasant demeanor and just a touch of the bad boy. Think Gary Grant. Think Bob Hope. And, if you're Johnny Carson, you have perfect pitch. What joke is just racy enough to amuse, not blue enough to offend? Like this joke about an old girlfriend from Lincoln, Nebraska.
CARSON: And she was voted Miss Lincoln because every guy in school took a shot at her in the balcony.
GREENFIELD: During the tumultuous 1960s you keep your politics, essentially liberal, to yourself and when you do touch on politics it's with a light touch.
RICHARD DAWSON: Name something you find on a farm?
CARSON: Well...
DAWSON: Is there a well? There's a well.
GREENFIELD: Your clothes are what one writer called casual square, sport jackets, slacks, never a dark suit, never a sweater or a leather jacket. And most of all you engage, you go with the inherent unpredictability of an animal or with the antics of a wilder comedian.
DON RICKLES: Give me a break, I'm so lonely.
GREENFIELD: And you have the self confidence to delight in the laughter that your guests, not you, may evoke.
CARSON: Have you ever seen this show before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, when I was up vomiting and all that stuff.
GREENFIELD: And yet with one gesture, one look you let the audience know that you and they are in on the joke.
(on camera): And so for 30 years this private, some said distant, aloof man, became perhaps the most familiar face on American television and when he said goodbye in 1992, he went back to his home, his wife, his friends, his books, his tennis, his yacht and never came back to the spotlight again. It was the ultimate gesture of self confidence to an audience that had embraced him for so long. He didn't need us.
Jeff Greenfield, CNN, Hollywood.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on the program we'll talk a bit about it all. Johnny Carson gave an entire generation of comics a stage on which to test and show their talents, among them Charles Grodin, Dick Cavett, David Steinberg. They all join us coming up.
Also ahead of more serious things, five days to go until the elections in Iraq, the voters in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown will they go to the polls? We'll take a break.
From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My pantyhose make me look like I'm not wearing nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My pantyhose make me look like I'm not wearing nothing.
CARSON: Now hold it you little teases, now come on. Admit it. You're really wearing something aren't you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we are.
CARSON: Well, I'm not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: For so many years in this country a common phrase heard around the office water cooler and, in truth, the high school locker was "Did you see so and so on Carson last night"? Politicians, stars, whatever seemed a never ending line of young, smart, bright comics, funny people and we're joined by two tonight.
Charles Grodin, a "Tonight Show" regular for two decades, that's a long time, and in Park City, Utah, Dick Cavett, who began his formidable career as a writer on "The Tonight Show" and it's nice to see you both.
I asked you, Chuck, in the makeup room did you know him, did you really know him?
CHARLES GRODIN, ACTOR: Well, I don't even feel I know me. I certainly don't know you. I've been friends with Regis for many years. I don't know Regis. And I was friends with Jack Parr. I have no idea who any of these people are.
BROWN: But he was famously shy?
GRODIN: Yes, but mostly when I think of Johnny I think of like the warrior, somebody who did 4,000-plus shows, like Regis, like Phil Donahue, like Larry King is, like hopefully you will if you want to come to work for that many years.
I don't know. I mean everybody is kind of unknowable. I don't mean to be glib about it but he was shy but he called me up when I started my cable show and said "Let's have dinner." Nobody else did that, so that's not too shy.
BROWN: Dick, when you went to -- how old were you when you started writing for "The Tonight Show"?
DICK CAVETT, FORMER TALK SHOW HOST: Let's see, I must have been, I was (UNINTELLIGIBLE), whatever age you are in '61 when you were born in 1936.
BROWN: Got it. We can all...
CAVETT: Twenty-five.
BROWN: And did you audition for him? Did he say "Hey that Cavett guy, he's funny?"
CAVETT: No. Somehow I'd forgotten and he had too how I got to be writing for him for an Emmy show once and that was before we did "The Tonight Show" and he liked the writing and presumably me and well I had been writing for Parr and when that ended and he took over the show, months later, that's significant, he remembered me. I didn't think he would remember me from meeting me when I was in eighth grade and he was the magician in the church basement in Lincoln, Nebraska for $35.
BROWN: Is that right?
CAVETT: By the way, Greenfield said everything I was going to say. Could we talk about Dave Letterman maybe?
BROWN: We could do that tomorrow if you'd like.
CAVETT: OK, I'll meet you here.
BROWN: Well, that's cool with me. Was it hard to work for him? Was he tough to work for?
CAVETT: He was a very, very businesslike employer. He came in and sort of walked right to his desk, speaking to few and took on the day's chores with a very, very precise businesslike thing about him.
And I remember once I turned out eight jokes and I thought I'm just not much good this day. I'll hand these in. Johnny won't mind. They won't know the difference. The dumbest thing I ever thought and when I got back to my office the phone rang and it said, the voice, "Richard, I think you're capable of a little better monologue than this."
BROWN: Wow.
CAVETT: Just saying it now makes my guts tighten again.
BROWN: Were you...
CAVETT: We became, however, very, very good friends. He had a special likeness for me. I don't know what it was. The staff would say "When you come on the show, he relaxes and he's more fun and he's nicer to us and all."
BROWN: You're very likable.
CAVETT: I'm hearing...
BROWN: You're very likable.
CAVETT: Yes, so the people who have a dedicated, those dedicate to convincing he had a ramrod in his spine or that he was ice cold and a fish, I'm here to tell you that he had the awful, awful pain in being out in society. He had a lot of, God I hate the word, warmth.
BROWN: Mr. Grodin. Mr. Grodin.
GRODIN: Yes.
BROWN: Two decades you did the show.
GRODIN: Yes.
BROWN: Were you terrified the first time?
GRODIN: Well, I decided very early on it wasn't going to work to go out and say how excited I was about my new movie.
BROWN: You were very cranky on the show.
GRODIN: That was deliberate. I had to do that because I had to get some conflict going. I didn't have the confidence to go out and say it was a lot of fun. I looked forward. He was a lot of fun.
So, I came out and was difficult and stayed like that through all these years, 30 years (UNINTELLIGIBLE) David Letterman. So, I have a big hurdle to overcome when people meet me. They actually think they buy what I did but it really, really was not that. I stayed in touch with him after he retired.
CAVETT: By the way, those appearance whoops.
BROWN: That's all right, go ahead.
CAVETT: Those appearance of yours were masterfully done and they really...
GRODIN: Are you talking about me, Dick?
CAVETT: I'm trying to be serious.
GRODIN: Oh, then go ahead, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about -- if you were talking about yourself then I would mind that but if you were -- now, let me just tell you this quick little story. I would get some -- I was on the "Best of Carson" videos that they would put out that they marketed.
BROWN: Yes.
GRODIN: And this is true and I got a check for three appearances that came to $8 and some change, literally, so I wrote him a letter and I said, you know, "I always thought I was a tiny part of the success of "The Tonight Show." I just hadn't realized how tiny."
And he wrote me back and he said, you know, "Thank you for calling this to my attention. We've looked into it. There was an overpayment. It will be deducted from your next payment." It was very funny on and off and just embraced comedy, so that's mostly what I know about him.
BROWN: Was he -- Dick, did he understand his place in television?
CAVETT: You know, I don't really -- I don't know. I know he would become so embarrassed when people were dumb enough to say "What's it feel like to be a legend" and all that stuff. BROWN: Yes.
CAVETT: That I don't think he really ever thought in those terms. I think he, if you can say existentially, had his mind on that day's show and not the forward and not the past. He put everything into it. He felt great while he was out there and I don't think he ever felt that good offstage but that was his world. He commanded it. He knew what to do. He never made a false gesture. He was just superb.
BROWN: Chuck, let me -- I'm sorry, yes. Let me ask you a final question. Why do you think he quit when he did?
CAVETT: Me?
BROWN: No, Chuck.
GRODIN: I don't know. Somebody said Merv Griffin -- Merv Griffin said the other night that he thought that he didn't want to that he was upset and that there were stories.
BROWN: That he felt eased out?
GRODIN: Yes, that's what Merv was alluding to, whether that happened or not I don't know. I know that Jack Parr said in explanation of why Jack never came back and why Johnny never did, which is in order to retain legendary status you never appear.
CAVETT: Oh, yes you have to be gone.
BROWN: Do you know that if he felt that way that he had been, Dick that he had been eased out?
CAVETT: Yes, I think he -- I think he probably hated every minute of his life to some degree from the moment he left the show because he was an extremist case of the performer who knows what he's doing and is happy and good and friendly on air and then has to go back to the hotel and the gin bottle.
BROWN: Huh.
CAVETT: Not directed at Johnny.
BROWN: Yes.
CAVETT: Though he was, I'm told, legendarily a bad drunk and was so miserable some days in the hours before the air show.
GRODIN: Oh, enough kind stories, Dick. Dick, you're buttering him up too much.
BROWN: It's good to have you both with us, Dick nice to talk to you, Chuck it's good to see you, will you come back?
GRODIN: Thank you. Thank you, Aaron, thank you.
BROWN: Thank you both.
When we come back Bill Zehme who got a rare interview with the post retirement Carson, and David Steinberg whose career was launched; terrific guests both. We'll take a break first.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Why no memorial?
ED MCMAHON: Oh, that's him, you know, his attitude. He would not like all of this folderol. He wouldn't (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KING: He wouldn't like what we're doing now?
MCMAHON: No, he had a gesture and it was like a push away, you know like come on, you know, stop that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ed McMahon.
David Steinberg is a director, an actor, a writer and for years both a frequent guest and a foil for Mr. Carson. Currently, he directs "Curb Your Enthusiasm," so he's done pretty well, hasn't he?
And Bill Zehme is perhaps the definitive historian of late night television, contributing editor of "Esquire" -- to "Esquire" magazine and he did, to our thinking, the impossible a couple of years back. He landed an interview with Johnny Carson. We're pleased to have you both.
David, it's nice to see you.
DAVID STEINBERG, COMEDIAN: Nice to see you, Aaron.
BROWN: Would Johnny object in a sense to all this talk of him and about him and analyzing him over the last 24, 36 hours?
STEINBERG: You know it's so interesting. I was thinking about that just driving up. I think Johnny would probably say that his death has been a boon for comedians that haven't been on TV for quite a while.
He would always take a satirical approach to almost everything and he was -- he was a shy person. But I disagree a little bit with what Dick Cavett said earlier. I think he was happy after he retired. I think he enjoyed his retirement. And I also remember, Aaron, like he was talking about retiring for about five or six years before he actually did and talking about it on the air.
BROWN: Yes. STEINBERG: And, when I had started to direct television, he asked me "Well, what was it like to direct?" I said, "Well, you know, what you do is you direct in motion like laughing and crying."
He said, "Could you make me cry?" I said, "Sure." And I said, "You're going to be here for another five years." And he cried and cried through the commercial. When we came back from commercial he was crying and so I think that when he left he actually wanted to leave. I think he (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: He had enough.
STEINBERG: He's had it.
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: He wanted to leave at the top of his career and not like so many just to overstay their visit. I think that it was all very, very well planned.
BROWN: Let me come back to that.
Bill, let me bring you in to this. There's a famous quote that someone wrote about him that interviewing Carson is like trying to get past a security system or something like that and you, in fact, sat down and talked with him. When you read the "Esquire" piece, and I read it again today, I read it a couple of years ago, he actually talked quite comfortably with you.
BILL ZEHME, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ESQUIRE" MAGAZINE: It couldn't have been more comfortable. You know he was a remarkably comfortable guy, as David had many a meal with the king. You know what was interesting about all the adulation, although I did think at one point today if Johnny were alive today, he would die.
BROWN: Yes.
ZEHME: Because this is, it is somewhat mortifying. But, you know, he was talking at the time about, first of all what a delight to sit with the man and he is Johnny Carson. Let's be honest.
You know I am a civilian and a journalist and I have met a handful of famous folks but you look in that face and you're staring into Mount Rushmore and immediately, however, he puts you at ease.
And, I was immediately charmed by him and tremendous stories. I mean he had so many great show business stories, as David know, but, you know, he was telling stories about Ed Sullivan and Fred Allen, in particular. Both of these names came up.
And he stopped each time after each hilarious story. He said, "But, you know, nobody knows who Fred Allen is anymore." Or, "You know, nobody knows who Ed Sullivan" -- and he said, "But you know what, they shouldn't. People move on. We move on."
And what he was I think saying to me was "Hey, I'm on the cusp right now. People may not know who I am and they don't need to anymore" which I thought that was interesting but there was more going on with that man the way he thought.
BROWN: Well, there is, David, there is in fact something generational about Johnny Carson. I have -- there are people on the staff of this program who are 26, 27, 28 years old who honestly don't quite get the fuss today. So, the fuss today is what?
STEINBERG: Well, I think that, you know, Aaron, I go back so far with Johnny, I started with him in 1968 and I was still doing the show the last week. The thing that was so unique about Johnny, almost all the way through even to the end, is that he ordained the culture. In other words, if you were a comedian and you came on and Johnny laughed at what you were saying, the next day you had a career.
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: So, when he -- when he liked anybody that person was liked by others and was accepted by others. I don't think that's the same today, so it wasn't just that he was a comedian. He had his ear to the ground. He knew what was going on.
You know I remember when Watergate occurred and I came on the show and had Nixon material and after the show he said to me, "You know you're a little bit ahead of the audience. They're not quite ready for that yet." But he laughed himself and allowed me to do it and, in comedy, you know, if you're ahead or behind, it's the same thing.
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: All that matters is hitting the right moment. When he dealt with Nixon it was the perfect -- I think Jeff Greenfield said he had perfect pitch. He knew exactly when to do whatever it was whereas people like myself were just all over the place and that was sort of important.
Today, I think in answer to your question, is that there is just -- television is so diffused...
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: ...that I don't know that anyone could distinguish themselves solely like Johnny did.
BROWN: Good to have you both with us. Thank you. Thank you very much.
STEINBERG: Thanks, Aaron.
ZEHME: Thanks, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you.
We have much more ahead. We'll take a break first. We'll be right back. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARSON: And I hope when I find something that I want to do and I think you will like and come back that you'll be as gracious inviting me into your home as you have been. I bid you a very heartfelt good night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Bush administration is expected to announce as early as tomorrow that it will seek another $80 billion in new funding for military operations this coming year in Iraq and Afghanistan, one piece of the story to go.
With Iraqi elections coming this week, here are some others. In Baghdad today, a suicide car bombing at a checkpoint near the headquarters of the Iraqi prime minister wounded a dozen people, including 10 police officers. In the last 36 hours, insurgents have attacked polling stations across Iraq, including several at schools.
With the violence escalating, the U.S. State Department is considering doubling the bounty on Osama bin Laden. There is also a problem that they haven't had a good tip on bin Laden in a very long time. So they want to double the bounty to $50 million.
And today, Iraq's government says it has arrested a top terrorist leader, a close associate of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The aide was captured more than a week ago, believed to be responsible for dozens of car bombings throughout Iraq. That's the backdrop tonight.
CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us now from Baghdad.
It's just a handful of days now until the election. This violence, this wave of violence seems to get worse every day. Is it impossibly tense there?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's very, very tense, unprecedented security, unprecedented crackdowns, a heavy, heavy clampdown and casting a wide net against suspected insurgents and weapons caches.
And we've been traveling somewhat, and some of our crews have been elsewhere in Iraq. We were in Tikrit, where we've seen that the U.S. military objective right now is not just to encourage people to come out to vote, but also to try to make it as safe as possible to do so. It's a very difficult task, but they're doing what we can, as we've found, in Tikrit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): The U.S. military is taking a two-prong approach to next weekend's election, get out the vote and get the insurgents. Here's how it works in Tikrit, once the stronghold of Saddam Hussein. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The concrete blocks staged along the side of the street, so that we can just pull them out in the road, block the road for the Election Day.
AMANPOUR: As they prepare to secure schools that will be used for polling stations, we follow Captain Aaron Coombs (ph) of the 1st Infantry Division's 118th Task Force. We ask the owner of a restaurant serving traditional barbecued fish whether he'll vote.
"In our city, we don't even know the people who are running for election," says Haitham Fata (ph). "They were all abroad, and now they've come back. If I don't know who I'm voting for, why would I vote?"
Bazan (ph), on the other hand, seemed eager to vote. "God willing, there won't be any problems on Election Day," he said. "We wish for peace, security, and a president who'll take care of us."
The former president looms large here. Saddam looked after Tikritis. And Captain Coombs' soldiers often have to paint over graffiti.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Typical things that you see are "Down With USA," "Long Live Saddam."
AMANPOUR (on camera): Still?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still, even a year and a half later.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Even within earshot of these U.S. soldiers, Abbas Fada (ph), who works the corner kabob stand, tells us that he misses Saddam.
"Of course, we do. He was known around the world," he said, "and we had all we needed here, above all, security." Abbas says he won't vote, and he jokes, "I'll vote for George Michael," he laughs. "That guy's a singer. At least we know him. The other guys we don't know."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this your house here?
AMANPOUR: Getting people to vote will be a test of the election's legitimacy and U.S. credibility. So around the Sunni Muslim heartland, U.S. commanders are stepping up training of Iraqi forces and commandos, rehearsing Election Day tactics. And they're also cracking down hard on the increasingly effective insurgents.
GEN. JOHN BATISTE, CMDR., 1ST INFANTRY DIVISION: Probably more organized now, more of an insurgency, as opposed to former regime elements resisting. The idea is to disrupt the enemy, to kill and capture him, between now, up through and beyond the elections.
AMANPOUR (on camera): While General Batiste acknowledges the insurgency has grown, he also says that working with and training the Iraqi forces is paying off. He says they've captured dozens of weapons caches and hundreds of suspected insurgents. (voice-over): At the 1st Infantry's detention center in Tikrit, we're shown about 250 suspected insurgents and criminals, as U.S. forces cast a wide net for bomb makers, foot soldiers and insurgent leaders. Fear is the major factor that could affect voter turnout on Sunday.
Awad (ph) says he was a policeman and he was meant to guard a polling station until masked men came to his house and threatened him. "They told me to stop being a policeman." He said they told him that, if you don't, we'll kill you.
The crucial question, whether fear will be more powerful next week or the chance to cast their first free vote.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And it's not just the potential voters who are afraid. It's also the election -- the election candidates. People who are running for election are not able to campaign in any way that you or I would recognize because of the insecurity. They don't really get out there in any significant way, because they have to be very careful about their own security. So it's a bit of a stealth election.
BROWN: Just I guess sort of as briefly as you can, it's very complicated, but there's essentially slates of candidates, large groups of candidates. And there's a perception I think that the outcome is pretty much known, that the Shia candidate slate will -- or one of them will win. So how do we judge success here?
AMANPOUR: Well, I think success will be judged I think certainly the Americans believe by a heavy turnout. If a lot of people turn out, that'll be considered one measure of success. Another, of course, the United States has made it clear that whoever wins -- and it is expected to be the Shiite majority for the first time taking power here -- that there should be no Iranian influence, no call for an Islamic republic or a theocratic state, and no call for a withdrawal of U.S. troops.
So, that's what they're hoping for. And I think that the worry is that, if an election just simply solidifies a sectarian divide, like, if the Sunnis are disenfranchised and it sows the seeds of civil war. So those are the hopes and the concerns.
BROWN: It's good to see you. I assume we'll see you most of the week as we work our way towards the elections. Stay safe out there. Thank you, Christiane Amanpour, in Baghdad.
Before we head to break, a few other stories that made news around here and around the world. A special session of the U.N. General Assembly marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation in the Nazi death camps in Europe. Surprisingly enough, the U.N., which was created out of the ashes of World War II, had never before commemorated the liberation of the concentration camps.
Ukraine's new president, Viktor Yushchenko, meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Although Yushchenko plans to seek stronger relations with the West, he intentionally chose Russia for his first official foreign visit, acknowledging the historic ties between the countries. But tensions do remain. Putin supported Yushchenko's opponent during Ukraine's election and the messy aftermath.
Snow plows and shovels essential tools around here. Across the Northeast, a powerful weekend storm dumped a foot and a half of snow across parts of New Jersey, more than a foot of snow in New York, and more than two feet on some areas of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, where, in truth, they know how to handle all that snow.
Ahead on the program, what today's ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court means for Terri Schiavo and for her parents' battle to keep her alive.
Also ahead, 32 years after Roe vs. Wade, the battle over that Supreme Court decision will not go away. What President Bush brought to the fight today.
We take a break today first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The case of Terri Schiavo is familiar in all its sad details; 15 years ago, the Florida woman, now 41 years old, suffered severe brain damage and has been in what doctors call a vegetative state ever since.
For the past 12 years, her husband and her parents have been engaged in a bitter, difficult legal fight over her fate. Today, the U.S. Supreme Court weighed in, refusing to reinstate a Florida law passed to keep Ms. Schiavo connected to a feeding tube that keeps her alive. The case now goes back to the Florida judge who has already ruled that Ms. Schiavo's husband could withdraw the feeding tube. Ms. Schiavo's father spoke publicly today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Just keep in mind, Terri is awake. She's aware. She could be here today if the courts would permit her to be here. And it's just pathetic what they've done to her. And it is judicial homicide. And it's just incredible. And we just ask for your support. And my family, on behalf of Terri, we thank you very, very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All these cases are hard, of course. And, as a culture, we struggle with them, as we should.
Another struggle equally divisive was on display in Washington. As the Supreme Court was issuing its decision in the Schiavo case, the anniversary of its landmark ruling on abortion once again was targeted on the Mall.
Reporting tonight for us, CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It has been 32 years since the Roe v. Wade decision, 1973, the same year Alveda King had an abortion.
ALVEDA KING, NIECE OF MARTIN LUTHER KING: For 10 years I didn't tell anybody. I just didn't talk about it. And then in 1983 I had an encounter with Jesus Christ, and I got to where I could talk to my children about it. And after I talked to my children, their response was, Well, did you want to kill us, too?
CROWLEY: This is the third year she has come to march against abortion. More precisely, she helps lead the march, an African- American in a movement that is largely white, a woman with history in her blood and civil rights in her name.
KING: America, that blank check that my uncle Martin Luther King talked about a long time ago, has to come in and go to the bank on behalf of the babies. And that means hey, hey, ho, ho, Roe v. Wade has got to go.
CROWLEY: There is a sense of momentum in the antiabortion community. But a number of marchers say it is not -- not yet -- about overturning Roe, not for the president who'd phoned in his support.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The true culture of life cannot be sustained solely by changing laws. We need, most of all, to change hearts.
CROWLEY: And not for Alveda King.
KING: I'm so glad that he's pro-life. I'm delighted. But God will make people see. He'll begin to touch our hearts. And I think there will be a tremendous revival.
CROWLEY: Still, with the Supreme Court vacancy in the offing, while the faithful worked to change hearts, the political twist arms. A double-truck ad appeared in the Washington Times Monday, listing Catholic lawmakers who support abortion rights.
JUDY BROWN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN LIFE LEAGUE: Until such time as they have publicly asked forgiveness for their support of abortion, they should not be receiving holy communion, according to canon law.
CROWLEY: While tens of thousands massed in Washington against abortion, the other side seemed oddly quiet. But they are there, and they are planning.
NANCY KEENAN, PRESIDENT, NARAL PRO-CHOICE AMERICA: We are galvanized. The pro-choice movement, the voices of America, middle America will be heard loud and clear in the U.S. Senate when they come to try to nominate and appoint the next Supreme Court justice.
KING (singing): And before I'll be a slave, I'll be... CROWLEY: Alveda King ended her day at a rally in front of the Supreme Court. A former state legislator in Georgia, she understands politics and where the next big abortion fight will be. But mostly, she seems to be fighting an old battle.
KING: There are very few days that go by that I don't regret it. And every time I see little children and I realize how many children are not here.
CROWLEY: For all the shouting and struggle over all the years, abortion remains a far tougher personal struggle than a political one.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Six years ago this April, two teenagers opened fire on their classmates in Littleton, Colorado. Twelve students died, a teacher, also 23 others wounded. The two took their own lives.
The massacre at Columbine High changed the way we think about school shootings. As part of CNN's anniversary series "Then and Now," we pick up with Pat Ireland, one of the students hurt that day in 1999.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAT IRELAND, WOUNDED IN COLUMBINE TRAGEDY: When I first was shot in the library, I wasn't sure what had happened. I tried to stand up couple times and realized I couldn't because one of the bullets passed through the one side of my brain and paralyzed me on my right side. From the time that I was shot to the time that I climbed out the window, it was about a three-hour period.
I had to relearn how to walk and talk and read and write. Basically started out over from a kindergartener or grade school level. I graduated valedictorian from Columbine. I had a 4.0 through the shootings. And then it had always been one might have goals to keep it up and graduate valedictorian.
All my family and friends just were constantly around me, constantly giving me support. Being such a competitor and not wanting to give up, not letting evil win in that situation. We had tons of outpouring from across the nation and the world actually.
I graduated magna cum laude from Colorado State and had a 3. 9 GPA. Casey and I are going to get married this August. We went to CSU together. I think that generally, the human spirit is good and good will always prevail. So the ultimate goal, just live a happy life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Throughout this year, CNN will look back at major stories from the last 25 years, as we mark 25 years of bringing you the news. It's fascinating to see what's happened to the people who made news over the years.
Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Does the music usually go on that long?
Just to -- just because I wanted to, I guess, I wanted to show some of the papers from today, because the passing of Johnny Carson is a big story. I mean, if you're my age, you're older than I am, he's a big deal, right? You get it, don't you?
"Minneapolis Star-Tribune" -- or "Star-Tribune." There used to be a "Minneapolis Star" and a "Minneapolis Tribune." Now there's a "Star-Tribune." Neal Justin, their TV writer and a good guy, wrote the lead and wrote the story. "Nation Loses Late-Night TV Legend. Johnny Carson, 1925-2005" is how they headline the story.
"The Palm Beach Post" -- hopscotching around the country. "Good Night, Johnny." I like that headline a lot, and I love the picture, because I always thought that Johnny Carson could say more without saying anything than any comic ever that I can think of, just in the way he looked. And that's one of those pictures.
"USA Today" had a sketch. "He Defined Late-Night TV and Launched Careers. Generations Tuned in to the Host's Easy Humor and Unfailing Affability." Was it generally -- it was not to me -- known that he was quite sick? There was like a tabloid story I read today, but I didn't know that.
"The Record," this is Bergen County, northern New Jersey. "A Lifetime of Laughs." Nice headline. "Carson, Brightest Light in Late-Night TV History, Dies." Pretty direct. The silhouette is a picture that is also used by "The Quad City Times." Every time we do "The Quad City Times" -- "Simply Magnificent is the Headline" -- I try and prove that I know all four of the quad cities. There are four of them. But I don't, Bettendorf, Iowa, Moline, Illinois, Rock Island, Illinois, and, of course, Davenport, Iowa. And then there's one more. There's five of the quad cities, right? No, there's four.
"The Washington Times." There was a reason I chose this: "36 TV Complaints Rejected by the FCC. Move Muddies Decency Standards." These were the shows they didn't fine the network for or networks for, including "Dawson's Creek," "Boston Public," "Friends," "Will & Grace," "Scrubs," and some others. Well, they didn't, but they will.
Just as I've been telling you for weeks now, "Waking Up a Winner." Philadelphia's on its way to the Super Bowl. I've been with them from the beginning, haven't I, Bob?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BROWN: Yes, I have. "Philadelphia Inquirer" puts it on their front page. They're going to put something up here, too. But they just haven't figured out what to say yet. We appreciate them sending it to us before they had. We like that paper a lot.
The weather in Chicago tomorrow, according to "The Chicago Sun- Times," "slobbery."
We'll wrap it up in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's never too soon to plan your morning TV viewing. Here's Bill Hemmer with a look ahead at "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," it is the morning movie fans have been waiting for. Academy Award nominations are announced at 8:30 a.m. Eastern. We'll have them live for you. Also, will Oscar take to the air this year, with "Aviator" leading the way in nominations, or will Jamie Foxx and "Ray" steal the show?
All the hype begins with a special edition of "90 Second Pop" tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. Hope to see you then -- Aaron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Bill, thank you. "The Aviator" is a good movie, but, man, that is a long film.
We'll see you tomorrow. Good to have you with us tonight. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 24, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
For 30 years the country couldn't get enough of Johnny Carson and tonight in some ways we can't either. One of the ways you knew you were growing up, if you're my age, is if you got to stay up late to watch the monologue. So, tonight we're joined by people who knew him and why we seemed to love him so if we didn't really know him at all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): To say that he was legendary, incomparable or even peerless just doesn't seem to capture the magic of Johnny Carson or provide an accurate gauge of the impact he had, not only on American television, but on American culture.
We try in the hour ahead joined by Dick Cavett, a writer for "The Tonight Show" in the '60s, who later competed against Carson in the late night TV wars. Then we'll talk with comedian and actor Charles Grodin, a regular Carson guest for two decades and others too who knew him and were launched by him, the latter in truth more common than the former.
Of other things today, the Iraqi election only a week away now, will they go to the polls or not? We'll hear from the people in Tikrit, the city that was Saddam's hometown.
And, it was the picture that brought home the horror of Columbine, in our anniversary series then and now we catch up with a student, now a young man, who refused to die that awful day nearly six years ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: All that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin though with the passing of Johnny Carson. He died, as most of you know now, over the weekend of emphysema at 79. Details of the funeral are being kept private, nor will there be a public memorial, which is not to say there hasn't been a public outpouring and there has. This is the way it looked today in Hollywood.
Thirty years is a long time to be a fixture of American life even though it's been more than a decade since we watched him say goodbye, 30 years beginning when network television and we were just kids.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNNY CARSON: I am curious period.
BROWN (voice-over): It's not as if he didn't have big shoes to fill that first night in March of '62.
CARSON: Portions of "The Tonight Show" will be heard.
BROWN: It's not as if he didn't have the chops to do it.
Jack Parr, whose show it was for years, had made a name for himself and a niche for the program by speaking his mind. For the next three decades, Johnny Carson would do the same by speaking ours.
CARSON: There's only one bathroom in the White House.
BROWN: Whether this was the essential truth about Mr. Carson or simply a pretty fair trick on his part is hard to say, hard to say about a young man who made his bones with slight of hand, then made it pay with slight of word. Magician ever after, he kept the machinery hidden and rarely did it fail him and, when it did, well that was magic too. Behold the vanishing host who disappears into the moment then reappears right on the beat.
CARSON: I didn't even know you were Jewish.
BROWN: That gifted timing soon acquired the gift of tone and taste, some perhaps generational, some no doubt geographical. Whether in New York or later in Los Angeles, there was always a bit of Corning, Iowa in John William Carson. It gave him leeway and license which he always made use of but rarely, if ever, exceeded. Still, when millions of viewers laughed there's usually a laughing stock often political.
CARSON: Jerry Brown, you may have heard yesterday, went whitewater rafting with two members of warring gang members here in Los Angeles. True, he took them on a whitewater rafting trip. They didn't want to go but he took them.
Do you get the feeling that Dan Quayle's golf bag doesn't have a full set of irons?
BROWN: Democrat or Republican, it didn't matter.
CARSON: Senator and Mrs. Kennedy are expecting their tenth child.
BROWN: If you won or lost Johnny Carson, it was said, you won or lost America.
ED MCMAHON: Carnac, the Magnificent.
BROWN: He denied it just as he denied to set the tone for pranksters and wits for a generation or so and subversive as he was for network television, it was still after all network television, so hipster, yes, iffy, never, iffy's (ph) are responsible, as Mr. Carson once was, for 17 percent of NBC's profits.
The counter culture rarely leaves a void in the broader culture nor does it set off a corporate soap opera over who will succeed him, one that's playing out even to this day but if it bothered Mr. Carson he rarely let it show, magician almost to the end he kept the machinery hidden almost.
(BETTE MIDLER ON JOHNNY CARSON)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, how did this self-described loner become America's best late night company, some thoughts tonight from CNN's Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): What's the secret? How do you wear so well on the American public that they welcome you into their homes night after night more than 4,000 "Tonight" shows over a span of 30 years with the same catch phrases?
CARSON: How strange is it?
GREENFIELD: ...the same banter with the band.
CARSON: Are we wearing the same outfit?
GREENFIELD: The same cast of characters.
CARSON: "Turner and Hooch."
MCMAHON: "Turner and Hooch."
CARSON: What's the rudest thing you can do to a girl in a church?
What are we doing here? (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)
GREENFIELD: Well, for one thing, it helps if you're from the Heartland like those who came before, Will Rogers, Arthur Godfrey, Jack Parr. It brings a comfort level. Sure, the comedians you showcase and encourage can embody the outsider but not the host, not the one who gains entry into millions of living rooms.
What you bring to the occasion is a pleasant demeanor and just a touch of the bad boy. Think Gary Grant. Think Bob Hope. And, if you're Johnny Carson, you have perfect pitch. What joke is just racy enough to amuse, not blue enough to offend? Like this joke about an old girlfriend from Lincoln, Nebraska.
CARSON: And she was voted Miss Lincoln because every guy in school took a shot at her in the balcony.
GREENFIELD: During the tumultuous 1960s you keep your politics, essentially liberal, to yourself and when you do touch on politics it's with a light touch.
RICHARD DAWSON: Name something you find on a farm?
CARSON: Well...
DAWSON: Is there a well? There's a well.
GREENFIELD: Your clothes are what one writer called casual square, sport jackets, slacks, never a dark suit, never a sweater or a leather jacket. And most of all you engage, you go with the inherent unpredictability of an animal or with the antics of a wilder comedian.
DON RICKLES: Give me a break, I'm so lonely.
GREENFIELD: And you have the self confidence to delight in the laughter that your guests, not you, may evoke.
CARSON: Have you ever seen this show before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, when I was up vomiting and all that stuff.
GREENFIELD: And yet with one gesture, one look you let the audience know that you and they are in on the joke.
(on camera): And so for 30 years this private, some said distant, aloof man, became perhaps the most familiar face on American television and when he said goodbye in 1992, he went back to his home, his wife, his friends, his books, his tennis, his yacht and never came back to the spotlight again. It was the ultimate gesture of self confidence to an audience that had embraced him for so long. He didn't need us.
Jeff Greenfield, CNN, Hollywood.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on the program we'll talk a bit about it all. Johnny Carson gave an entire generation of comics a stage on which to test and show their talents, among them Charles Grodin, Dick Cavett, David Steinberg. They all join us coming up.
Also ahead of more serious things, five days to go until the elections in Iraq, the voters in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown will they go to the polls? We'll take a break.
From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My pantyhose make me look like I'm not wearing nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My pantyhose make me look like I'm not wearing nothing.
CARSON: Now hold it you little teases, now come on. Admit it. You're really wearing something aren't you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we are.
CARSON: Well, I'm not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: For so many years in this country a common phrase heard around the office water cooler and, in truth, the high school locker was "Did you see so and so on Carson last night"? Politicians, stars, whatever seemed a never ending line of young, smart, bright comics, funny people and we're joined by two tonight.
Charles Grodin, a "Tonight Show" regular for two decades, that's a long time, and in Park City, Utah, Dick Cavett, who began his formidable career as a writer on "The Tonight Show" and it's nice to see you both.
I asked you, Chuck, in the makeup room did you know him, did you really know him?
CHARLES GRODIN, ACTOR: Well, I don't even feel I know me. I certainly don't know you. I've been friends with Regis for many years. I don't know Regis. And I was friends with Jack Parr. I have no idea who any of these people are.
BROWN: But he was famously shy?
GRODIN: Yes, but mostly when I think of Johnny I think of like the warrior, somebody who did 4,000-plus shows, like Regis, like Phil Donahue, like Larry King is, like hopefully you will if you want to come to work for that many years.
I don't know. I mean everybody is kind of unknowable. I don't mean to be glib about it but he was shy but he called me up when I started my cable show and said "Let's have dinner." Nobody else did that, so that's not too shy.
BROWN: Dick, when you went to -- how old were you when you started writing for "The Tonight Show"?
DICK CAVETT, FORMER TALK SHOW HOST: Let's see, I must have been, I was (UNINTELLIGIBLE), whatever age you are in '61 when you were born in 1936.
BROWN: Got it. We can all...
CAVETT: Twenty-five.
BROWN: And did you audition for him? Did he say "Hey that Cavett guy, he's funny?"
CAVETT: No. Somehow I'd forgotten and he had too how I got to be writing for him for an Emmy show once and that was before we did "The Tonight Show" and he liked the writing and presumably me and well I had been writing for Parr and when that ended and he took over the show, months later, that's significant, he remembered me. I didn't think he would remember me from meeting me when I was in eighth grade and he was the magician in the church basement in Lincoln, Nebraska for $35.
BROWN: Is that right?
CAVETT: By the way, Greenfield said everything I was going to say. Could we talk about Dave Letterman maybe?
BROWN: We could do that tomorrow if you'd like.
CAVETT: OK, I'll meet you here.
BROWN: Well, that's cool with me. Was it hard to work for him? Was he tough to work for?
CAVETT: He was a very, very businesslike employer. He came in and sort of walked right to his desk, speaking to few and took on the day's chores with a very, very precise businesslike thing about him.
And I remember once I turned out eight jokes and I thought I'm just not much good this day. I'll hand these in. Johnny won't mind. They won't know the difference. The dumbest thing I ever thought and when I got back to my office the phone rang and it said, the voice, "Richard, I think you're capable of a little better monologue than this."
BROWN: Wow.
CAVETT: Just saying it now makes my guts tighten again.
BROWN: Were you...
CAVETT: We became, however, very, very good friends. He had a special likeness for me. I don't know what it was. The staff would say "When you come on the show, he relaxes and he's more fun and he's nicer to us and all."
BROWN: You're very likable.
CAVETT: I'm hearing...
BROWN: You're very likable.
CAVETT: Yes, so the people who have a dedicated, those dedicate to convincing he had a ramrod in his spine or that he was ice cold and a fish, I'm here to tell you that he had the awful, awful pain in being out in society. He had a lot of, God I hate the word, warmth.
BROWN: Mr. Grodin. Mr. Grodin.
GRODIN: Yes.
BROWN: Two decades you did the show.
GRODIN: Yes.
BROWN: Were you terrified the first time?
GRODIN: Well, I decided very early on it wasn't going to work to go out and say how excited I was about my new movie.
BROWN: You were very cranky on the show.
GRODIN: That was deliberate. I had to do that because I had to get some conflict going. I didn't have the confidence to go out and say it was a lot of fun. I looked forward. He was a lot of fun.
So, I came out and was difficult and stayed like that through all these years, 30 years (UNINTELLIGIBLE) David Letterman. So, I have a big hurdle to overcome when people meet me. They actually think they buy what I did but it really, really was not that. I stayed in touch with him after he retired.
CAVETT: By the way, those appearance whoops.
BROWN: That's all right, go ahead.
CAVETT: Those appearance of yours were masterfully done and they really...
GRODIN: Are you talking about me, Dick?
CAVETT: I'm trying to be serious.
GRODIN: Oh, then go ahead, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about -- if you were talking about yourself then I would mind that but if you were -- now, let me just tell you this quick little story. I would get some -- I was on the "Best of Carson" videos that they would put out that they marketed.
BROWN: Yes.
GRODIN: And this is true and I got a check for three appearances that came to $8 and some change, literally, so I wrote him a letter and I said, you know, "I always thought I was a tiny part of the success of "The Tonight Show." I just hadn't realized how tiny."
And he wrote me back and he said, you know, "Thank you for calling this to my attention. We've looked into it. There was an overpayment. It will be deducted from your next payment." It was very funny on and off and just embraced comedy, so that's mostly what I know about him.
BROWN: Was he -- Dick, did he understand his place in television?
CAVETT: You know, I don't really -- I don't know. I know he would become so embarrassed when people were dumb enough to say "What's it feel like to be a legend" and all that stuff. BROWN: Yes.
CAVETT: That I don't think he really ever thought in those terms. I think he, if you can say existentially, had his mind on that day's show and not the forward and not the past. He put everything into it. He felt great while he was out there and I don't think he ever felt that good offstage but that was his world. He commanded it. He knew what to do. He never made a false gesture. He was just superb.
BROWN: Chuck, let me -- I'm sorry, yes. Let me ask you a final question. Why do you think he quit when he did?
CAVETT: Me?
BROWN: No, Chuck.
GRODIN: I don't know. Somebody said Merv Griffin -- Merv Griffin said the other night that he thought that he didn't want to that he was upset and that there were stories.
BROWN: That he felt eased out?
GRODIN: Yes, that's what Merv was alluding to, whether that happened or not I don't know. I know that Jack Parr said in explanation of why Jack never came back and why Johnny never did, which is in order to retain legendary status you never appear.
CAVETT: Oh, yes you have to be gone.
BROWN: Do you know that if he felt that way that he had been, Dick that he had been eased out?
CAVETT: Yes, I think he -- I think he probably hated every minute of his life to some degree from the moment he left the show because he was an extremist case of the performer who knows what he's doing and is happy and good and friendly on air and then has to go back to the hotel and the gin bottle.
BROWN: Huh.
CAVETT: Not directed at Johnny.
BROWN: Yes.
CAVETT: Though he was, I'm told, legendarily a bad drunk and was so miserable some days in the hours before the air show.
GRODIN: Oh, enough kind stories, Dick. Dick, you're buttering him up too much.
BROWN: It's good to have you both with us, Dick nice to talk to you, Chuck it's good to see you, will you come back?
GRODIN: Thank you. Thank you, Aaron, thank you.
BROWN: Thank you both.
When we come back Bill Zehme who got a rare interview with the post retirement Carson, and David Steinberg whose career was launched; terrific guests both. We'll take a break first.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Why no memorial?
ED MCMAHON: Oh, that's him, you know, his attitude. He would not like all of this folderol. He wouldn't (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KING: He wouldn't like what we're doing now?
MCMAHON: No, he had a gesture and it was like a push away, you know like come on, you know, stop that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ed McMahon.
David Steinberg is a director, an actor, a writer and for years both a frequent guest and a foil for Mr. Carson. Currently, he directs "Curb Your Enthusiasm," so he's done pretty well, hasn't he?
And Bill Zehme is perhaps the definitive historian of late night television, contributing editor of "Esquire" -- to "Esquire" magazine and he did, to our thinking, the impossible a couple of years back. He landed an interview with Johnny Carson. We're pleased to have you both.
David, it's nice to see you.
DAVID STEINBERG, COMEDIAN: Nice to see you, Aaron.
BROWN: Would Johnny object in a sense to all this talk of him and about him and analyzing him over the last 24, 36 hours?
STEINBERG: You know it's so interesting. I was thinking about that just driving up. I think Johnny would probably say that his death has been a boon for comedians that haven't been on TV for quite a while.
He would always take a satirical approach to almost everything and he was -- he was a shy person. But I disagree a little bit with what Dick Cavett said earlier. I think he was happy after he retired. I think he enjoyed his retirement. And I also remember, Aaron, like he was talking about retiring for about five or six years before he actually did and talking about it on the air.
BROWN: Yes. STEINBERG: And, when I had started to direct television, he asked me "Well, what was it like to direct?" I said, "Well, you know, what you do is you direct in motion like laughing and crying."
He said, "Could you make me cry?" I said, "Sure." And I said, "You're going to be here for another five years." And he cried and cried through the commercial. When we came back from commercial he was crying and so I think that when he left he actually wanted to leave. I think he (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: He had enough.
STEINBERG: He's had it.
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: He wanted to leave at the top of his career and not like so many just to overstay their visit. I think that it was all very, very well planned.
BROWN: Let me come back to that.
Bill, let me bring you in to this. There's a famous quote that someone wrote about him that interviewing Carson is like trying to get past a security system or something like that and you, in fact, sat down and talked with him. When you read the "Esquire" piece, and I read it again today, I read it a couple of years ago, he actually talked quite comfortably with you.
BILL ZEHME, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ESQUIRE" MAGAZINE: It couldn't have been more comfortable. You know he was a remarkably comfortable guy, as David had many a meal with the king. You know what was interesting about all the adulation, although I did think at one point today if Johnny were alive today, he would die.
BROWN: Yes.
ZEHME: Because this is, it is somewhat mortifying. But, you know, he was talking at the time about, first of all what a delight to sit with the man and he is Johnny Carson. Let's be honest.
You know I am a civilian and a journalist and I have met a handful of famous folks but you look in that face and you're staring into Mount Rushmore and immediately, however, he puts you at ease.
And, I was immediately charmed by him and tremendous stories. I mean he had so many great show business stories, as David know, but, you know, he was telling stories about Ed Sullivan and Fred Allen, in particular. Both of these names came up.
And he stopped each time after each hilarious story. He said, "But, you know, nobody knows who Fred Allen is anymore." Or, "You know, nobody knows who Ed Sullivan" -- and he said, "But you know what, they shouldn't. People move on. We move on."
And what he was I think saying to me was "Hey, I'm on the cusp right now. People may not know who I am and they don't need to anymore" which I thought that was interesting but there was more going on with that man the way he thought.
BROWN: Well, there is, David, there is in fact something generational about Johnny Carson. I have -- there are people on the staff of this program who are 26, 27, 28 years old who honestly don't quite get the fuss today. So, the fuss today is what?
STEINBERG: Well, I think that, you know, Aaron, I go back so far with Johnny, I started with him in 1968 and I was still doing the show the last week. The thing that was so unique about Johnny, almost all the way through even to the end, is that he ordained the culture. In other words, if you were a comedian and you came on and Johnny laughed at what you were saying, the next day you had a career.
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: So, when he -- when he liked anybody that person was liked by others and was accepted by others. I don't think that's the same today, so it wasn't just that he was a comedian. He had his ear to the ground. He knew what was going on.
You know I remember when Watergate occurred and I came on the show and had Nixon material and after the show he said to me, "You know you're a little bit ahead of the audience. They're not quite ready for that yet." But he laughed himself and allowed me to do it and, in comedy, you know, if you're ahead or behind, it's the same thing.
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: All that matters is hitting the right moment. When he dealt with Nixon it was the perfect -- I think Jeff Greenfield said he had perfect pitch. He knew exactly when to do whatever it was whereas people like myself were just all over the place and that was sort of important.
Today, I think in answer to your question, is that there is just -- television is so diffused...
BROWN: Yes.
STEINBERG: ...that I don't know that anyone could distinguish themselves solely like Johnny did.
BROWN: Good to have you both with us. Thank you. Thank you very much.
STEINBERG: Thanks, Aaron.
ZEHME: Thanks, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you.
We have much more ahead. We'll take a break first. We'll be right back. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARSON: And I hope when I find something that I want to do and I think you will like and come back that you'll be as gracious inviting me into your home as you have been. I bid you a very heartfelt good night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Bush administration is expected to announce as early as tomorrow that it will seek another $80 billion in new funding for military operations this coming year in Iraq and Afghanistan, one piece of the story to go.
With Iraqi elections coming this week, here are some others. In Baghdad today, a suicide car bombing at a checkpoint near the headquarters of the Iraqi prime minister wounded a dozen people, including 10 police officers. In the last 36 hours, insurgents have attacked polling stations across Iraq, including several at schools.
With the violence escalating, the U.S. State Department is considering doubling the bounty on Osama bin Laden. There is also a problem that they haven't had a good tip on bin Laden in a very long time. So they want to double the bounty to $50 million.
And today, Iraq's government says it has arrested a top terrorist leader, a close associate of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The aide was captured more than a week ago, believed to be responsible for dozens of car bombings throughout Iraq. That's the backdrop tonight.
CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us now from Baghdad.
It's just a handful of days now until the election. This violence, this wave of violence seems to get worse every day. Is it impossibly tense there?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's very, very tense, unprecedented security, unprecedented crackdowns, a heavy, heavy clampdown and casting a wide net against suspected insurgents and weapons caches.
And we've been traveling somewhat, and some of our crews have been elsewhere in Iraq. We were in Tikrit, where we've seen that the U.S. military objective right now is not just to encourage people to come out to vote, but also to try to make it as safe as possible to do so. It's a very difficult task, but they're doing what we can, as we've found, in Tikrit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): The U.S. military is taking a two-prong approach to next weekend's election, get out the vote and get the insurgents. Here's how it works in Tikrit, once the stronghold of Saddam Hussein. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The concrete blocks staged along the side of the street, so that we can just pull them out in the road, block the road for the Election Day.
AMANPOUR: As they prepare to secure schools that will be used for polling stations, we follow Captain Aaron Coombs (ph) of the 1st Infantry Division's 118th Task Force. We ask the owner of a restaurant serving traditional barbecued fish whether he'll vote.
"In our city, we don't even know the people who are running for election," says Haitham Fata (ph). "They were all abroad, and now they've come back. If I don't know who I'm voting for, why would I vote?"
Bazan (ph), on the other hand, seemed eager to vote. "God willing, there won't be any problems on Election Day," he said. "We wish for peace, security, and a president who'll take care of us."
The former president looms large here. Saddam looked after Tikritis. And Captain Coombs' soldiers often have to paint over graffiti.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Typical things that you see are "Down With USA," "Long Live Saddam."
AMANPOUR (on camera): Still?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still, even a year and a half later.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Even within earshot of these U.S. soldiers, Abbas Fada (ph), who works the corner kabob stand, tells us that he misses Saddam.
"Of course, we do. He was known around the world," he said, "and we had all we needed here, above all, security." Abbas says he won't vote, and he jokes, "I'll vote for George Michael," he laughs. "That guy's a singer. At least we know him. The other guys we don't know."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this your house here?
AMANPOUR: Getting people to vote will be a test of the election's legitimacy and U.S. credibility. So around the Sunni Muslim heartland, U.S. commanders are stepping up training of Iraqi forces and commandos, rehearsing Election Day tactics. And they're also cracking down hard on the increasingly effective insurgents.
GEN. JOHN BATISTE, CMDR., 1ST INFANTRY DIVISION: Probably more organized now, more of an insurgency, as opposed to former regime elements resisting. The idea is to disrupt the enemy, to kill and capture him, between now, up through and beyond the elections.
AMANPOUR (on camera): While General Batiste acknowledges the insurgency has grown, he also says that working with and training the Iraqi forces is paying off. He says they've captured dozens of weapons caches and hundreds of suspected insurgents. (voice-over): At the 1st Infantry's detention center in Tikrit, we're shown about 250 suspected insurgents and criminals, as U.S. forces cast a wide net for bomb makers, foot soldiers and insurgent leaders. Fear is the major factor that could affect voter turnout on Sunday.
Awad (ph) says he was a policeman and he was meant to guard a polling station until masked men came to his house and threatened him. "They told me to stop being a policeman." He said they told him that, if you don't, we'll kill you.
The crucial question, whether fear will be more powerful next week or the chance to cast their first free vote.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And it's not just the potential voters who are afraid. It's also the election -- the election candidates. People who are running for election are not able to campaign in any way that you or I would recognize because of the insecurity. They don't really get out there in any significant way, because they have to be very careful about their own security. So it's a bit of a stealth election.
BROWN: Just I guess sort of as briefly as you can, it's very complicated, but there's essentially slates of candidates, large groups of candidates. And there's a perception I think that the outcome is pretty much known, that the Shia candidate slate will -- or one of them will win. So how do we judge success here?
AMANPOUR: Well, I think success will be judged I think certainly the Americans believe by a heavy turnout. If a lot of people turn out, that'll be considered one measure of success. Another, of course, the United States has made it clear that whoever wins -- and it is expected to be the Shiite majority for the first time taking power here -- that there should be no Iranian influence, no call for an Islamic republic or a theocratic state, and no call for a withdrawal of U.S. troops.
So, that's what they're hoping for. And I think that the worry is that, if an election just simply solidifies a sectarian divide, like, if the Sunnis are disenfranchised and it sows the seeds of civil war. So those are the hopes and the concerns.
BROWN: It's good to see you. I assume we'll see you most of the week as we work our way towards the elections. Stay safe out there. Thank you, Christiane Amanpour, in Baghdad.
Before we head to break, a few other stories that made news around here and around the world. A special session of the U.N. General Assembly marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation in the Nazi death camps in Europe. Surprisingly enough, the U.N., which was created out of the ashes of World War II, had never before commemorated the liberation of the concentration camps.
Ukraine's new president, Viktor Yushchenko, meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Although Yushchenko plans to seek stronger relations with the West, he intentionally chose Russia for his first official foreign visit, acknowledging the historic ties between the countries. But tensions do remain. Putin supported Yushchenko's opponent during Ukraine's election and the messy aftermath.
Snow plows and shovels essential tools around here. Across the Northeast, a powerful weekend storm dumped a foot and a half of snow across parts of New Jersey, more than a foot of snow in New York, and more than two feet on some areas of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, where, in truth, they know how to handle all that snow.
Ahead on the program, what today's ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court means for Terri Schiavo and for her parents' battle to keep her alive.
Also ahead, 32 years after Roe vs. Wade, the battle over that Supreme Court decision will not go away. What President Bush brought to the fight today.
We take a break today first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The case of Terri Schiavo is familiar in all its sad details; 15 years ago, the Florida woman, now 41 years old, suffered severe brain damage and has been in what doctors call a vegetative state ever since.
For the past 12 years, her husband and her parents have been engaged in a bitter, difficult legal fight over her fate. Today, the U.S. Supreme Court weighed in, refusing to reinstate a Florida law passed to keep Ms. Schiavo connected to a feeding tube that keeps her alive. The case now goes back to the Florida judge who has already ruled that Ms. Schiavo's husband could withdraw the feeding tube. Ms. Schiavo's father spoke publicly today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Just keep in mind, Terri is awake. She's aware. She could be here today if the courts would permit her to be here. And it's just pathetic what they've done to her. And it is judicial homicide. And it's just incredible. And we just ask for your support. And my family, on behalf of Terri, we thank you very, very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All these cases are hard, of course. And, as a culture, we struggle with them, as we should.
Another struggle equally divisive was on display in Washington. As the Supreme Court was issuing its decision in the Schiavo case, the anniversary of its landmark ruling on abortion once again was targeted on the Mall.
Reporting tonight for us, CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It has been 32 years since the Roe v. Wade decision, 1973, the same year Alveda King had an abortion.
ALVEDA KING, NIECE OF MARTIN LUTHER KING: For 10 years I didn't tell anybody. I just didn't talk about it. And then in 1983 I had an encounter with Jesus Christ, and I got to where I could talk to my children about it. And after I talked to my children, their response was, Well, did you want to kill us, too?
CROWLEY: This is the third year she has come to march against abortion. More precisely, she helps lead the march, an African- American in a movement that is largely white, a woman with history in her blood and civil rights in her name.
KING: America, that blank check that my uncle Martin Luther King talked about a long time ago, has to come in and go to the bank on behalf of the babies. And that means hey, hey, ho, ho, Roe v. Wade has got to go.
CROWLEY: There is a sense of momentum in the antiabortion community. But a number of marchers say it is not -- not yet -- about overturning Roe, not for the president who'd phoned in his support.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The true culture of life cannot be sustained solely by changing laws. We need, most of all, to change hearts.
CROWLEY: And not for Alveda King.
KING: I'm so glad that he's pro-life. I'm delighted. But God will make people see. He'll begin to touch our hearts. And I think there will be a tremendous revival.
CROWLEY: Still, with the Supreme Court vacancy in the offing, while the faithful worked to change hearts, the political twist arms. A double-truck ad appeared in the Washington Times Monday, listing Catholic lawmakers who support abortion rights.
JUDY BROWN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN LIFE LEAGUE: Until such time as they have publicly asked forgiveness for their support of abortion, they should not be receiving holy communion, according to canon law.
CROWLEY: While tens of thousands massed in Washington against abortion, the other side seemed oddly quiet. But they are there, and they are planning.
NANCY KEENAN, PRESIDENT, NARAL PRO-CHOICE AMERICA: We are galvanized. The pro-choice movement, the voices of America, middle America will be heard loud and clear in the U.S. Senate when they come to try to nominate and appoint the next Supreme Court justice.
KING (singing): And before I'll be a slave, I'll be... CROWLEY: Alveda King ended her day at a rally in front of the Supreme Court. A former state legislator in Georgia, she understands politics and where the next big abortion fight will be. But mostly, she seems to be fighting an old battle.
KING: There are very few days that go by that I don't regret it. And every time I see little children and I realize how many children are not here.
CROWLEY: For all the shouting and struggle over all the years, abortion remains a far tougher personal struggle than a political one.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Six years ago this April, two teenagers opened fire on their classmates in Littleton, Colorado. Twelve students died, a teacher, also 23 others wounded. The two took their own lives.
The massacre at Columbine High changed the way we think about school shootings. As part of CNN's anniversary series "Then and Now," we pick up with Pat Ireland, one of the students hurt that day in 1999.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAT IRELAND, WOUNDED IN COLUMBINE TRAGEDY: When I first was shot in the library, I wasn't sure what had happened. I tried to stand up couple times and realized I couldn't because one of the bullets passed through the one side of my brain and paralyzed me on my right side. From the time that I was shot to the time that I climbed out the window, it was about a three-hour period.
I had to relearn how to walk and talk and read and write. Basically started out over from a kindergartener or grade school level. I graduated valedictorian from Columbine. I had a 4.0 through the shootings. And then it had always been one might have goals to keep it up and graduate valedictorian.
All my family and friends just were constantly around me, constantly giving me support. Being such a competitor and not wanting to give up, not letting evil win in that situation. We had tons of outpouring from across the nation and the world actually.
I graduated magna cum laude from Colorado State and had a 3. 9 GPA. Casey and I are going to get married this August. We went to CSU together. I think that generally, the human spirit is good and good will always prevail. So the ultimate goal, just live a happy life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Throughout this year, CNN will look back at major stories from the last 25 years, as we mark 25 years of bringing you the news. It's fascinating to see what's happened to the people who made news over the years.
Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Does the music usually go on that long?
Just to -- just because I wanted to, I guess, I wanted to show some of the papers from today, because the passing of Johnny Carson is a big story. I mean, if you're my age, you're older than I am, he's a big deal, right? You get it, don't you?
"Minneapolis Star-Tribune" -- or "Star-Tribune." There used to be a "Minneapolis Star" and a "Minneapolis Tribune." Now there's a "Star-Tribune." Neal Justin, their TV writer and a good guy, wrote the lead and wrote the story. "Nation Loses Late-Night TV Legend. Johnny Carson, 1925-2005" is how they headline the story.
"The Palm Beach Post" -- hopscotching around the country. "Good Night, Johnny." I like that headline a lot, and I love the picture, because I always thought that Johnny Carson could say more without saying anything than any comic ever that I can think of, just in the way he looked. And that's one of those pictures.
"USA Today" had a sketch. "He Defined Late-Night TV and Launched Careers. Generations Tuned in to the Host's Easy Humor and Unfailing Affability." Was it generally -- it was not to me -- known that he was quite sick? There was like a tabloid story I read today, but I didn't know that.
"The Record," this is Bergen County, northern New Jersey. "A Lifetime of Laughs." Nice headline. "Carson, Brightest Light in Late-Night TV History, Dies." Pretty direct. The silhouette is a picture that is also used by "The Quad City Times." Every time we do "The Quad City Times" -- "Simply Magnificent is the Headline" -- I try and prove that I know all four of the quad cities. There are four of them. But I don't, Bettendorf, Iowa, Moline, Illinois, Rock Island, Illinois, and, of course, Davenport, Iowa. And then there's one more. There's five of the quad cities, right? No, there's four.
"The Washington Times." There was a reason I chose this: "36 TV Complaints Rejected by the FCC. Move Muddies Decency Standards." These were the shows they didn't fine the network for or networks for, including "Dawson's Creek," "Boston Public," "Friends," "Will & Grace," "Scrubs," and some others. Well, they didn't, but they will.
Just as I've been telling you for weeks now, "Waking Up a Winner." Philadelphia's on its way to the Super Bowl. I've been with them from the beginning, haven't I, Bob?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BROWN: Yes, I have. "Philadelphia Inquirer" puts it on their front page. They're going to put something up here, too. But they just haven't figured out what to say yet. We appreciate them sending it to us before they had. We like that paper a lot.
The weather in Chicago tomorrow, according to "The Chicago Sun- Times," "slobbery."
We'll wrap it up in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's never too soon to plan your morning TV viewing. Here's Bill Hemmer with a look ahead at "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," it is the morning movie fans have been waiting for. Academy Award nominations are announced at 8:30 a.m. Eastern. We'll have them live for you. Also, will Oscar take to the air this year, with "Aviator" leading the way in nominations, or will Jamie Foxx and "Ray" steal the show?
All the hype begins with a special edition of "90 Second Pop" tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. Hope to see you then -- Aaron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Bill, thank you. "The Aviator" is a good movie, but, man, that is a long film.
We'll see you tomorrow. Good to have you with us tonight. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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