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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

A Look at Cox-2 Inhibitors; Negroponte Nominated to Become Nation's First National Intelligence Director

Aired February 17, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
When Vioxx and Celebrex first hit the market in the late '90s it was easy to imagine them as the first two members of a whole new class of wonder drugs, super aspirins they were called. Scientifically they're known as Cox-2 inhibitors, painkillers that weren't also stomach killers, chemical heroes.

Tonight, after studies and hearings and headlines you might imagine the Cox-2 drugs as villains instead plain and simple, except that it's neither plain nor simple.

In December, Pfizer, for example, stopped advertising Celebrex to consumers but it hasn't stopped selling it. In fact, you'll find a statement on Pfizer's Web site standing behind the drug, which leaves a patient exactly where?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): David Pollinger will turn 78 next week and he looks at risk with a rational eye.

DAVID POLLINGER, CELEBREX USER: I don't think it's been proven to me yet that I should cease taking this drug. If I have to and I'm told to and my doctor advises me to, well then I will but until that time I think I'm going to continue to take it.

BROWN: He continues to take Celebrex even as many people are switching to other medications, even though he has a history of heart disease. He takes it for a simple reason. It improves his life.

DAVID POLLINGER: Well, the first thing that Celebrex has provided was, of course, lesser discomfort and pain. The second thing is it improves my golf game. I can probably hit the ball a little better and swing a little better and score a few strokes better than if I were not taking it.

BROWN: Pollinger, who suffers from arthritis, started taking Celebrex five years ago after surgery on his shoulder. When recent studies linking the Cox-2s to heart attacks and strokes began surfacing he sat down with his cardiologist and his wife Donna.

DONNA POLLINGER, SPOUSE: We figure out, my husband and I and the doctor and we all discussed this, that if it's going to make him feel comfortable and he's not in so much pain that, you know, why not try it?

BROWN: Dr. Stephen Paget, a rheumatologist in New York, doesn't treat Mr. Pollinger but he does treat many others with disabling chronic pain including some who remain on the Cox-2 drugs.

DR. STEPHEN PAGET, PHYSICIAN IN CHIEF, HOSP. FOR SPECIAL SURGERY: They have severe pain that's incapacitating and stops them from living the life that they want to lead.

BROWN: Prescribing medication, Dr. Paget says, is a careful balancing act.

PAGET: And what you want to factor into it is a safety formula for that individual person.

BROWN: And now the equation has changed.

PAGET: There's no doubt that the formula that's used now is different from 1999 and 2000 because when you add into it death from cardiovascular disease or stroke that ups the ante tremendously.

BROWN: So, patients and doctors will continue to weigh the pros and cons of the Cox-2 drugs and people, being who they are, different patients will have different comfort levels when it comes to risk.

POLLINGER: I've heard the risks and in the whole scope of life on earth before we go to our future life this is -- it wasn't a big decision at this moment to make.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That is one side of the story.

Now another contradiction, another drug, today Merck, the maker of Vioxx, said it's considering putting the drug back on the market despite the risk of heart attack and stroke. So, again two sides of the equation, risk and benefit.

Here's CNN's Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's why it's really awesome.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we had one come back after the Army. That was a little rough or a while there but, yes, they're on their own and they're doing OK and now we can play.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, we have a technical problem there. We'll try and sort that out and we'll try and sort out some other things as well. Dr. Elizabeth Tindall joins us now from Washington. She's the president of the American College of Rheumatology in Boston; Dr. Jerry Avorn, professor of medicine at Harvard and the author of "Powerful Medicines," and it's good to see you both.

DR. ELIZABETH TINDALL, AMERICAN COLLEGE OF RHEUMATOLOGY: Thank you.

BROWN: There's a little bit of, I think, Cox-2 inhibitor 101 we need to do because there's been so much out there over the last couple of months. Jerry, do we know that these drugs relieve pain any better than aspirin or ibuprofen?

JERRY AVORN, M.D., AUTHOR, "POWERFUL MEDICINES": No, Aaron, we don't and what's striking and what sometimes gets forgotten about in the course of all this debate is that there are no studies out there showing that these drugs are stronger pain relievers than aspirin or Motrin or Naproxen or any of the other drugs that have been around for years.

Their one claim to fame had been that they'd be somewhat gentler on your stomach but if there had been a study that showed that Vioxx or Celebrex was stronger than Motrin or aspirin, I'm sure Merck and Pfizer would have shown it to us on commercials every night and we haven't seen those data because they don't exist.

BROWN: I want to come back to that question in a second.

Dr. Tindall, nevertheless patients, some patients certainly believe that these Cox-2 inhibitors do relieve pain that the Motrin and the aspirins did not, correct?

TINDALL: That is correct, Aaron, and I think it has to do with each individual patient trying different medications. Sometimes they work for a while. Sometimes they don't. And when you have people with arthritis who have pain for years they can go through a lot of different medications before they find one that works well for them.

And, although it's true there is not an improvement over pain say over traditional non-steroidals, nonetheless all these medications had to do to be approved was to say they were equal in potency. So, we have sort of changed the standard. Now we're asking them to be better as far as pain relief.

BROWN: OK. I'll go back against Jerry on this. Do we ever -- does the industry or the government or you guys at universities do you ever take two drugs and compare them? Do you ever say put aspirin next to Vioxx and run tests on those or is it always a placebo?

AVORN: Well, that's exactly the point, Aaron. Those are the exact kinds of studies that we need, that patients need, the doctors need, where you do a randomized trial.

It's controlled and people don't know what they're getting and you have patients like the kind that we just saw in that segment getting drugs for weeks to months and you see how is their pain relief doing? We don't have those studies because the companies don't like to do those studies.

BROWN: And the government doesn't do those studies at all?

AVORN: Exactly right. The FDA and the National Institutes of Health don't do the studies. Almost all the studies that we see about drug effects are done by the manufacturers and they would rather not compare their drug against other drugs if they can avoid it. The FDA standard is to compare it against a placebo. Sometimes you're lucky and you get some head-to-head studies but they're rare.

BROWN: Dr. Tindall, do you think the Cox-2 inhibitor drugs will even be on the market in a year?

TINDALL: Excuse me, could you repeat that?

BROWN: Do you think these drugs, the Cox-2 inhibitor drugs, will even be on the market available in a year?

TINDALL: Yes, I do believe there is a place for these medications and I heard the testimony today and I've heard some of the criticisms that have been laid out there.

But one of the things that has not come out is the incredible benefit that all of the patients who spoke today gave before the panel and I think that can't be overstated that patients need these medications. These medications are not for everybody, even though the marketing I agree was aimed at as wide an audience as possible and if I might say something about the double blind placebo trials.

BROWN: Sure.

TINDALL: With arthritis patients you really can't use a placebo because they're in pain and the studies that came out of long use placebo use compared to the Coxibs were in patients who didn't have pain. They were in polyp prevention or Alzheimer's prevention. So, it's very difficult to come up with a placebo trial when the patient is going to know after a few weeks I'm not really probably taking anything.

BROWN: All right, one more area for both of you and I want to try mine here and that's this whole question of what is and how we decide acceptable risk here? If you had any history in your family of heart disease, for example, is that an -- based on what we know today is that an unacceptable risk, Jerry, to take any of the Cox-2 drugs?

AVORN: I think I would agree with Dr. Tindall that it does need to be individualized for each patient and one's cardiac history is important but we don't really have the data that shows that these drugs are free of problems even if you don't have cardiac disease. So, it is a combination of facts and unfortunately even here in 2005, we don't have all the safety risk factors that we'd like to know about.

BROWN: Dr. Tindall, how do you tell patients to evaluate risk?

TINDALL: Well, I try to go through what the risk factors are for known cardiovascular or cerebral vascular disease and that would be diabetes, smoking, post menopausal, family history, elevated cholesterol, overweight, all of the usual parameters that you would use in assessing a patient's risk and then a use of a Coxib may be another independent risk factor.

And that was sort of asked to Dr. Graham and some of the members of the panel today and no one could really come up with when do you finally cross that line where the risk is unacceptable? No one really knows.

BROWN: Great, terrific. Thanks for that. We're working on it I guess. Hopefully at least a year from now we'll know more about it. Thanks.

TINDALL: I think so.

BROWN: Thank you both very much.

TINDALL: Thank you.

BROWN: If the Cox-2 saga is part blessing and part curse, this next story tonight is 100 percent blessing. The story takes place in northern California where Jerrick De Leon is recovering tonight from open heart surgery. His case will be one for the medical journals because even the smallest stack of medical journals vastly outweighs the patients. That's the headline of the story.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta takes us beyond the headline of one of the most delicate heart operations ever done.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA LOURDES, JERRICK'S MOTHER: What if I just pray hard that my baby reaches two pounds?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baby Jerrick was born weighing around just a pound and he also had a life- threatening heart defect. Doctors told his mother Maria, who is also a pediatrician, to abandon hope.

LOURDES: I told him, you know, like so you're not giving me any options here, you know. What is it that you want to -- what's the plan for the baby? It was very difficult. I was blocking a lot and I was just saying, you know, like I was just surrendering whatever comes.

GUPTA: But there was one option left and his name Dr. Mohan Reddy, a pediatric heart surgeon at Stamford and the only one willing to do the operation. In a last ditch effort, Jerrick was airlifted up the California coast. He was just a week old.

Jerrick suffered from what the surgeons call transposition of the great arteries. Simply, the large blood vessel that is supposed to take oxygenated blood to the body was switched with the blood vessel that takes blood to the lungs and the body was literally starving for air. Fixing it would be risky but the alternative was almost certain death.

DR. MOHAN REDDY, LUCILE PACKARD CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Just to give you an idea we just took a picture of the baby with a finger next to the chest and the whole baby's chest is pretty much the size of my finger and the incision is probably the tip of my finger. That's how big the chest -- whole chest is.

GUPTA: And the heart?

REDDY: I would say probably the size of a, you know, moderate sized grape maybe even smaller.

GUPTA: Still, after six hours, Dr. Reddy and his team completed a medical first. They switched the arteries back on what they believe is the smallest baby ever to survive this procedure and, at the same time, push back even further the boundaries of life and death.

REDDY: When you do cardiac surgery in children you are always living on the edge and unless you take risks you're not going to advance the field and you're not going to make progress.

GUPTA: In this case, progress is measured in a healthy baby and a happy mother.

REDDY: It's very joyous in the sense it's very satisfying that we can help this little tiny baby.

LOURDES: I'm a mother. I think I was always looking for the good side of it.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: More to come tonight, starting with a chilling turn of a romantic phrase, getting to know you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): This guy is getting to know all about you.

JAY PATEL, FOUNDER, ABIKA.COM: Why do we need privacy? That's the question like why do people need privacy?

BROWN: Meet a pioneer in the next gold rush. He's mining for data, maybe even your data. Interested in knowing what he knows?

Meet another pioneer, the first national intelligence director but director of what actually and of whom and with how much clout?

RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I don't think it's a powerful job. This is a miserable job. This is one of the hardest jobs in Washington.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say this is the most extreme example of this kind of culture where everyone mistrusts everyone else. BROWN: And this is the happiest place on earth, Michael Eisner and the battle for Disney.

OK, maybe this is a happier place, we'll look at the stories behind the cover and talk with the model on the cover, tan lines and all because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's possible that the most personal information on tens of thousands of Americans has been stolen. The database of an information collection company called Choice Point was essentially duped by thieves who now know everything from credit cards and driver's license and Social Security numbers to credit ratings and much, much more.

Most states don't require that you be told if you're one of the people at risk. The scam it turns out was pretty sophisticated but in many ways finding out the most detailed parts of people's lives is easy, very easy, just ask Jay.

Here's CNN Technology Correspondent Daniel Sieberg.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You might think of Wyoming as the perfect place in which to get lost. It's the tenth largest state in the union yet it's dead last in population, a haven for anonymity.

However, the cowboy state is where a lot of people are found, specifically the basement of this house on the outskirts of Cheyenne. This is the home of Jay Patel, founder of an Internet background search service called Abika.

PATEL: I don't even believe in privacy too much but first like most people when they discuss privacy why do we need privacy? That's the question like why do people need privacy?

SIEBERG: He says most people agree privacy isn't important. In fact, he says the world would be a better place if everyone knew everything about each other.

PATEL: Do you know the root cause of hatred or intolerance is because people don't know about other people.

SIEBERG: And Jay Patel says he's here to help. His company can track down a name from an e-mail address or instant message screen name, find an unlisted or blocked phone number, verify a person's salary. In fact, Abika has more than 300 ways for you to snoop on others and more than 300 ways for them to snoop on you.

(on camera): Do you ever worry that this information could fall into the wrong hands? People these days talk about terrorism or criminal activity do you worry about that?

PATEL: See but for us it's not something which anyone cannot find it by going directly to the source, so it's not something which is like exclusive to us. It's right there, so we are only searching it. We don't create this information and we don't access anything which is restricted. We are just a small company in the basement here.

SIEBERG (voice-over): When Jay and his staff receive a request for information they often get nothing more than a name and last known address. They send that information to private investigators, court researchers and keepers of various databases.

Abika will even create a psychological profile of a person, all this usually without the subject knowing he or she is being investigated. So, I decided to request a search on myself, at least I'd know about it.

(on camera): So, I mean you have my Social Security number. Is there the possibility that someone could steal my identity because this information is so easy to get?

PATEL: If you see, we don't release the Social Security number. The last four digits are X'd out so in your whole profile...

SIEBERG (voice-over): Right.

PATEL: ...you would see that it's not released to anyone.

SIEBERG: But could someone else find that as easily as you did?

PATEL: Social Security numbers are the easiest thing to find as such.

SIEBERG: A scary thought but Jay says Abika releases Social Security numbers only to qualified customers; however, we also ordered a general background search on another person and did get his Social Security number because it was the same as his driver's license number and that's just one of the things that has privacy advocates concerned about services like Abika.

MARC ROTENBERG, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFO. CTR.: These new information brokers that have sprouted up on the Internet are really operating in the wild, wild west. There is no regulation or control. Information that these companies provide becomes the basis for decisions about whether you get a job, about whether you clear a background check, about whether you're able to lease an apartment, maybe even whether you get a home loan. So, the risk is very tangible but a mistake will be made that you'll be turned down for an opportunity that you really are entitled to.

SIEBERG: Still, these data brokers have a lot of fans. Software executive Steve Kirsch uses Abika and other services to sue the senders of junk faxes.

STEVE KIRSCH, PROPEL SOFTWARE: Propel will get lots of unsolicited faxes and the only identification -- there will be no identification of the company on the faxes and so the only thing we'll have is an 800 number that we should dial, so we've used Abika to look up who owns the 800 number because when we call the 800 number, of course, they just give us a phony company name and a phony location.

SIEBERG (on camera): As proof that Jay's approach to privacy can work for some people, Jay actually points to his own situation. Before moving here to Wyoming, he lived in South Dakota and one day he was at a store there and he saw a girl and read her name tag.

He then went home and did a background search on her and when he returned to the store he told her some things about her that he had found. Now, surprisingly she didn't slap him. Instead three weeks later they were married.

(voice-over): But not all background checks have a happy ending. In 1999, in New Hampshire, Liam Youens used another Internet data broker called Docusearch to find out where a former high school classmate worked. He then shot and killed the woman, 20-year-old Amy Boyer (ph) as she left work. He also killed himself. Boyer's family sued Docusearch saying it should have told the woman she was being investigated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She went to work not knowing that her personal private information was given by Docusearch, the defendants, to someone who had no legal right to have it.

SIEBERG: But Docusearch argued it has no duty to check a customer's background.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He premeditated his crime and he killed her. Telling him where she worked didn't foreseeably increase the risk of anything. It didn't proximately cause anything. It had nothing to do with Amy Boyer's death.

SIEBERG: The suit was settled out of court last year with the Boyer family getting $85,000 but the background search industry is still going strong. As Youens wrote on his personal Web site, as he was planning his quest to kill Boyers, "It's actually obscene what you can find out about a person on the Internet." Comments like that have many people searching for the balance between openness and the obscene.

Daniel Sieberg CNN, Cheyenne, Wyoming.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still ahead tonight a picture of Disney that certainly doesn't resemble a magic kingdom.

And authorities weigh in on some lurid allegations against the comedian Bill Cosby.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Well, the country now has its first director of national intelligence. Today the president nominated John Negroponte, currently the ambassador to Iraq. If confirmed by the Senate, and that appears likely, Ambassador Negroponte will oversee 15 intelligence agencies and control the purse strings of all of them, well sort of.

Like so many other things in Washington and in life nothing is that simple and Congress and the president made sure the real power of the DNI isn't that simple either, more from our National Security Correspondent David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Power in Washington flows to those with access to the president and those with control of budgets and personnel. Mr. Bush sought to make clear the new director of national intelligence will have both.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He will have access on a daily basis in that he'll be my primary briefer.

ENSOR: On the estimated $40 billion intelligence budget spanning 15 different agencies, the president said Negroponte will determine who gets what.

BUSH: People make their case. There's a discussion. But ultimately, John will make the decisions on the budget.

ENSOR: Former Deputy Director of Central Intelligence John McLaughlin, who has joined CNN as an analyst, says Negroponte will have his work cut out for him.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: It's the legislation that empowers him. It's not as precise as everyone would like it to be in authorizing his powers. The legislation is, after all, the result of compromises during a difficult and contentious time in our country and therefore the language in many cases is what I would call kind of spongy.

ENSOR: Critics charge that the intelligence reform law that sets up the DNI job contains too much ambiguity about budget and personnel power. They predict trouble between Negroponte and the Pentagon.

FALKENRATH: I don't think a powerful job. This is a miserable job. This is one of the hardest jobs in Washington and it is so undefined that authorities are so ambiguous and the expectations are so high that it's unlikely to be a successful, fun experience for this person.

ENSOR: But the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee disagrees.

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), VICE CHMN., INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: If we had prescribed in Congress every relationship between each of the agencies, I think that would have been an enormous mistake and would have rendered this person more useless. This person can exercise power and I think that's good.

ENSOR: As ambassador in Iraq and before, Negroponte has been a consumer of intelligence but he has no intelligence experience. His new deputy, however, General Michael Hayden, head of the National Security Agency, is a seasoned hand. Many present and former intelligence professionals are praising the president's choice of Negroponte.

JAMES PAVITT, FMR. CIA SPY CHIEF: I think he will be a first rate leader of this organization.

ENSOR (on camera): Negroponte called it his most challenging assignment in 40 years and that may be putting it mildly. Being the first at anything is always harder but the ambassador has been good at setting up and leading teams in a number of jobs in government. CIA regulars, present and former, are promising him their full support.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Late word tonight concerning the comedian Bill Cosby. An investigation into a young woman's allegations that Mr. Cosby fondled her last year is now closed, no charges filed. Prosecutors say they found insufficient evidence.

No would that Michael Eisner's tenure as head of the Walt Disney Company -- and he's run the company for almost a generation -- has been anything but remarkable, remarkable in its successes early on, remarkable in its struggles more recently.

Most anyone who has ever met him who describe him as smart, tough and often funny. Some who work for him would describe him in more colorful ways.

James Stewart has written about Disney and Mr. Eisner. The book is called "DisneyWar." We talk with Mr. Stewart in a few moments.

But, first, as they say in Hollywood, the dish.

Here is CNN's Allan Chernoff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Stewart originally pitched Disney a book about the company's influence on American culture. But after a management shakeup, it turned into a look at Eisner's dirty laundry, enough so that author James Stewart has delivered a 534-page laundromat of a book, "DisneyWar."

Stewart depicts Disney CEO Eisner as a paranoid, backstabbing corporate titan. Behind the Magic Kingdom facade lies a corporate battleground, well documented in public scandals, like Jeffrey Katzenberg's lawsuit claiming Disney reneged on a promised bonus. The company settled for $280 million, or Eisner's ousting of Michael Ovitz, a close friend he recruited as president and soon fired with a reported $140 million exit package.

But after interviewing the key players, Stewart offers new details of Eisner's tactics. Only months after hiring Michael Ovitz, the book says, Eisner wrote to confidants on the board of directors: "Michael does not have the trust of anybody. I do not trust him. Michael Ovitz is simply not a corporate executive."

At about that time, Eisner, sitting next to Ovitz, told a different story on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

LARRY KING, HOST: So, Michael Eisner, you would hire Michael Ovitz again today?

MICHAEL EISNER, DISNEY CEO: Yes. Are you offering him again?

KING: No, all things being -- in other words...

(LAUGHTER)

EISNER: Yes. The answer is yes. The answer is yes.

KING: That would certainly clear up any rift stories.

(CROSSTALK)

EISNER: ... just all baloney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Within weeks, Eisner fired Ovitz. Eisner also tried to undermine Robert Iger, his next pick as Disney president. The book says Eisner told several board members, "Iger can never succeed me."

Though Eisner denies it in the book, Stewart reports, Eisner calls his theme park executives "monkeys who don't have any brains." Stewart has written in a narrative style without direct sourcing for specific events. Eisner has refused to comment, but Disney's public relations department calls the book "one-sided depiction of past events largely told through the eyes of those with a clear bias and personal agendas."

(on camera): After former board member Roy Disney led a revolt, Michael Eisner last year lost nearly half the shareholder vote for reelection. He gave up his position as chairman and said he will step down as chief executive when his contract expires in 2006.

Allan Chernoff, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next on the program, the author himself. We talk with James Stewart about his book "DisneyWar."

Also ahead, "Sports Illustrated"'s swimsuit issue. No kidding. We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: James Stewart is no stranger to the world of the rich and the infamous. He wrote "Den of Thieves," a look at insider trading on Wall Street. He also won a Pulitzer Prize for his work as a reporter and an editor at "The Wall Street Journal."

We talked with Mr. Stewart this afternoon about "DisneyWar".

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You've written a lot of business books. This is not hardly your first. Is there something about Hollywood and show business that, as a business, makes it unique to write about and I guess unique to read about?

JAMES STEWART, AUTHOR, "DISNEYWAR": Well, I have never encountered a sort of Machiavellian culture like I discovered when I went to Disney.

Now, I knew it wasn't going to be the happiest place on Earth, as it likes to proclaim as part of its brand image. But I thought it would be a fairly happy place. And it was like a dysfunctional family. Now, I've written about Wall Street. I've written about Washington. And I would say this is the most extreme example of this kind of culture where everyone mistrusts everyone else, where there's lying going on constantly, betrayals and backstabbing.

And I did wonder, is there something endemic in the entertainment industry? I think part of it may be that the objective measures of success, other than the box office, are so difficult to gauge.

BROWN: Do we see Eisner, at least as you see him, as he is? Is he a success? Is he a great -- did he have a great 20 years? Nobody is perfect? What is he in the end?

STEWART: Well, I think, in any good story, a character changes through time. But Eisner -- and you see Eisner change over the years. He starts out. He is a great success, tremendous success, amazing success by Hollywood standards. He consolidates power. And with power comes a certain amount of hubris. And then you begin to see that great trajectory taper off and at some point begin to plunge downward.

BROWN: So, he doesn't get to walk out the way I guess we would all like to walk out, without being pushed?

STEWART: No.

I mean, he doesn't -- he hates the idea that he was stripped of his title, but he was stripped of his title. He was repudiated. He did hang on too long. I think you can argue that, in the entertainment industry, nobody should run Disney or any of these companies for 20 years. But I thought of the recent -- reading the obituaries of Johnny Carson recently about he walked out at the top of his game, ceded the spotlight, retired gracefully, said nothing more, didn't try to have another act. That was really a classy way to go. That's not the Eisner way. I don't think Eisner can really see a future when he is not running Disney.

BROWN: Is that right?

STEWART: Well, in all of his conversations with me.

For example, he intimates rather strongly that he would be quite happy to be restored as the chairman, if the board would ask him to do that, and remain as some kind of chief creative officer into the indefinite future. Now, I think that's very unlikely to happen, and it probably shouldn't happen. But, to me, it shows how much the identity of the company and his own personality have fused into one.

BROWN: But it's just a hard thing, generally, for people to do, to walk off the stage at the top of their game in any -- you know, it doesn't happen in my business. It doesn't happen in sports very often.

It certainly doesn't happen in big corporations. It's a really hard thing for people to do.

STEWART: Well, and it's really hard in Hollywood. I mean, Eisner I think to this day is haunted that he is going to be a nobody overnight.

I don't think he will, but that's his fear. There are a couple stories in the book where, after he was fired by Paramount, he couldn't get a reservation at the hot restaurant Morton's (ph), and so he had to ask Michael Ovitz. Michael Ovitz called and Michael Ovitz immediately got a table.

And when Joe Roth was leaving, Eisner says, well, you don't want to leave. Nobody is going to return your phone calls. And Joe Roth said to Michael, Michael, that's called projection. People will return my phone calls. But, obviously, Eisner is very insecure about that.

BROWN: It's nice to see you. Good luck with the book. It's one of those books -- and partly I think because it's Disney, something about Disney and something about Hollywood -- people are talking about. So good for you.

STEWART: Well, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: James Stewart. We talked with him this afternoon.

Still ahead, spring is getting close. It must be. Pitchers and catchers have reported and the swimsuit issue is out as well.

And the rooster always joins us. Morning papers will wrap up the hour.

We'll take a break. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Like most men my age, I learned about sex the old- fashioned way, in one of the February issues of "Sports Illustrated."

Trust me. At 12, it was pretty hot stuff. At 56, it's still worth a discrete glance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It was born to fill a practical need, bridging the gap between the end of football and the time when anyone really cares about winter sports, the playoffs. At least that's their story over at "Sports Illustrated," and they're sticking to it.

DIANE SMITH, EDITOR, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" SWIMSUIT ISSUE: The image that I'm trying to capture is something that is a confident, wholesome, sexy, secure woman who looks great, has fun, feels great in a bathing suit and, you know, is healthy. I mean, I look for curves, obviously.

BROWN: She looks for curves. And so did the millions of, well, sports fans who read it each year. It's the most popular issue of "Sports Illustrated." And the magazine estimates that 60 million people will see it. That's about one in four Americans. Let's just say the swimsuit issue is a bigger draw than hockey.

SMITH: It's hard to realize or to believe how revolutionary that was, to have a bathing suit model on the cover of "Sports Illustrated." So, it had such a great response that it just grew, grew, grew to what it is now.

BROWN: Ms. Smith, we suspect, will not deny they are selling cheesecake here, but she insists it's a wholesome cheesecake, the sort of cheesecake dads and sons can enjoy together.

SMITH: It's a magazine that embodies like a great American tradition. It's totally innocent when you look at what's going on today.

BROWN: And we suppose that is a standard. It's not as racy as an ABC AFL promo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLETTE SHERIDAN, ACTRESS: Terrell, wait.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And that is, we learned, the art, after all. The swimsuit issue is all about the tease.

SMITH: I have an instinct. They have an instinct. We know where to stop and how to keep it still totally acceptable and wholesome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Carolyn Murphy is on the cover of "Sports Illustrated"'s swimsuit issue this year. Sammy Sosa, she is not.

She joins us from Los Angeles. It's nice to see you.

CAROLYN MURPHY, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" SWIMSUIT COVER MODEL: It's nice to see you, too. Thank...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So, are you upset about the NHL players strike?

MURPHY: No. You know, I wish I could say that I was. I'm not as up to date on it as I should be.

BROWN: Do you even like sports?

MURPHY: I do like sports. I grew up around sports. My father was a really big Redskins fan. I come from Virginia. I was a swimmer competitively for 11 years. And I'm a surfer. I love hiking, one of the reasons I live in California. I mean, I follow them as much as I can. But I've been very busy the past few days.

BROWN: I'll bet you have.

Is it -- in the world of modeling, is it -- is it a big deal to be the cover of "Sports Illustrated"? Is it a bigger deal than being the cover of "Glamour" or something?

MURPHY: Well, you know, personally, it's a very big deal. But, of course, in my career, it's huge. It's like the pinnacle of my career, besides getting in a contract with Estee Lauder. What every model aspires to is to be on the cover of magazines, to be out there, to be in the face of every household and become a household name.

And I think, with "Sports Illustrated," it targets a whole other demographic, which is why I was so proud when I found out about it. I was really excited, because it's not only just a woman's magazine. It's men as well.

BROWN: It's a men's magazine, actually, that some women read I think would be a fairer way to describe it, don't you think?

MURPHY: It's probably a better way to describe it, but I have to tell you, quite honestly, I've been looking at "Sports Illustrated" since I was a little girl.

I mean, it wasn't just my brother that was pinning the pictures on his walls. I remember looking at pictures of Rachel Hunter and Elle Macpherson saying, wow, I want to look like that. How great does that woman look? She has a healthy body. She's beautiful and she's glowing. And I think that every woman out there cannot deny the fact that they're going to be looking at the issue, too, for those reasons. BROWN: The -- the issue I think has always been edited by women or a woman. Does that change how the issue comes out because of that?

MURPHY: Well, I think, you know, it takes two to make a great magazine like this. Of course, most of the time, yes, it is for men. It's a sports-oriented magazine.

But how great is it to have an issue like this, to have these beautiful women on the covers and the inside? Because it sells. And it's -- we have women athletes in this issue. If you did not have a woman editor, it would just be all for the men. I think it's a perfect balance to have Diane Smith editing the magazine. She's great at it. She knows what also men want to see, but what women want to see. And that's important.

BROWN: Do they want to see different things?

MURPHY: Of course. I mean, they want to see different ethnicities. They want to see different body types. They want to see girls that are in a photo laughing and smiling. And they want to see women that are being sexy. And that's the fun of it.

BROWN: No, do men and women want to see different things? Will men and women see..

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: I'm serious, actually.

MURPHY: No.

BROWN: When they look at the picture, will they -- are women looking at something different from what men are looking at?

MURPHY: You know what? I think that it's really on an individual basis.

Of course, I know that, when I look at a picture of a woman, I like when she looks sexy. I like when she's having fun, you know, playing volleyball. Of course, the men have a different vision of that. I'm not a man, so I can't answer that.

BROWN: No, but you have a rough idea.

MURPHY: I have a rough idea.

BROWN: Yes, I think you do, too.

Next week or the week after, because this happens every year, "Sports Illustrated" will run five letters to the editor from people either threatening to cancel their subscription or objecting one way or another. What is it they don't get?

MURPHY: Well, what do you mean, what they don't get? They have -- they have -- I guess the ratio is less than 1 percent of people opt out. It's 98 percent subscription readers to this magazine. So, it's really -- I'm not sure what you're asking.

BROWN: I guess the question -- what I'm asking is, people who are offended by it, people who find it inappropriate for whatever reasons, what is it they're not seeing that everyone else sees?

MURPHY: You know, again, it's -- there's always going to be people there to stir the pot. You know, you -- there's always going to be people that are unhappy with something.

Generally, I would like to think that, overall, people love it. Again, the ratio of people that opt out of this, because they do have the choice, is less than 1 percent.

BROWN: Congratulations.

MURPHY: Thank you.

BROWN: It's a beautiful picture and it's a nice honor for you.

MURPHY: Thank you.

BROWN: And we're glad to have you on the program. Thank you.

MURPHY: Thank you. I'm proud. Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Carolyn Murphy.

We'll take a break. Morning papers when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Let's just set those over there. And we'll work with these tonight. Here we go. The glasses over there, Aaron.

"The Washington Times" leads it off, because it's on top. No other reason. "House Approves Class-Action Act. Measures Target -- Measure Targets Frivolous Lawsuits." Actually, the measure targets all class-action lawsuits, some of which are perhaps frivolous and some of which are not, but it moves them all into federal court, which is a tougher venue, lawyers say. That's an interesting headline, huh?

"Richmond Times-Dispatch," down here, if you will, please. "Senate Panel Rejects Abortion Measures. Fetal Anesthesia, Clinic Regulations Bill Defeated and Other Proposal Withdrawal" in the Virginia Senate. So that remains a front-page issue in the state of Virginia. I guess it's a front-page issue anywhere.

The two competing papers in Detroit. They used to have a hockey season. Now they just have the two newspapers competing. "The Detroit News" starts it off. "College Aid Changes Hurt the Poor. Governor's Merit Scholarship Proposal Means Less Federal Money For Some." I think that's unfortunate. People who -- it would nice if people who want to go to college can go to college. "The Detroit Free Press." "FDA to Rule on Fate of Pain Pills." We obviously like this story a lot, since it was our lead tonight. "State Bills For Taxes on Web and Cigarettes. At Least $1.7 Million Owed By Smokers Who Bought Online." Oh, I get it. I'm sorry. "State Bills For Taxes on Web Cigarettes."

"Attack of the Crows" in "The Des Moines Register." "The birds are leaving a mess across Iowa. Is there anything that can stop them?" What the heck ever happened to scarecrows? Wasn't that the whole point of scarecrows? Did crows figure that out and now they're not scared of scare crows anymore? This article will explain it.

How we doing on time?

"Rebuilding the Army" is "The Stars and Stripes" headline. "U.S. Forces Tasked With Training Iraqi Troops Report Progress, But No Definite End in Sight."

The weather in Chicago tomorrow -- do it with my right hand tonight -- "deceitful."

We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time to plan the early morning. Here is Bill Hemmer with a look at "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," a burning controversy has landed on the frozen outer reaches of the solar system. Is the planet Pluto really just a planet wanna-be? Neil deGrasse Tyson, the director of the Hayden Planetarium here in New York is -- he calls Pluto a pretender. It turns out Pluto has a lot of friends out there, too. We'll talk with Neil on that tomorrow morning starting at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. Hope to see you then -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Going to boost our numbers in Pluto tomorrow.

Good to have you with us tonight. We're all back tomorrow around the world and perhaps around the universe 10:00 Eastern.

Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired February 17, 2005 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
When Vioxx and Celebrex first hit the market in the late '90s it was easy to imagine them as the first two members of a whole new class of wonder drugs, super aspirins they were called. Scientifically they're known as Cox-2 inhibitors, painkillers that weren't also stomach killers, chemical heroes.

Tonight, after studies and hearings and headlines you might imagine the Cox-2 drugs as villains instead plain and simple, except that it's neither plain nor simple.

In December, Pfizer, for example, stopped advertising Celebrex to consumers but it hasn't stopped selling it. In fact, you'll find a statement on Pfizer's Web site standing behind the drug, which leaves a patient exactly where?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): David Pollinger will turn 78 next week and he looks at risk with a rational eye.

DAVID POLLINGER, CELEBREX USER: I don't think it's been proven to me yet that I should cease taking this drug. If I have to and I'm told to and my doctor advises me to, well then I will but until that time I think I'm going to continue to take it.

BROWN: He continues to take Celebrex even as many people are switching to other medications, even though he has a history of heart disease. He takes it for a simple reason. It improves his life.

DAVID POLLINGER: Well, the first thing that Celebrex has provided was, of course, lesser discomfort and pain. The second thing is it improves my golf game. I can probably hit the ball a little better and swing a little better and score a few strokes better than if I were not taking it.

BROWN: Pollinger, who suffers from arthritis, started taking Celebrex five years ago after surgery on his shoulder. When recent studies linking the Cox-2s to heart attacks and strokes began surfacing he sat down with his cardiologist and his wife Donna.

DONNA POLLINGER, SPOUSE: We figure out, my husband and I and the doctor and we all discussed this, that if it's going to make him feel comfortable and he's not in so much pain that, you know, why not try it?

BROWN: Dr. Stephen Paget, a rheumatologist in New York, doesn't treat Mr. Pollinger but he does treat many others with disabling chronic pain including some who remain on the Cox-2 drugs.

DR. STEPHEN PAGET, PHYSICIAN IN CHIEF, HOSP. FOR SPECIAL SURGERY: They have severe pain that's incapacitating and stops them from living the life that they want to lead.

BROWN: Prescribing medication, Dr. Paget says, is a careful balancing act.

PAGET: And what you want to factor into it is a safety formula for that individual person.

BROWN: And now the equation has changed.

PAGET: There's no doubt that the formula that's used now is different from 1999 and 2000 because when you add into it death from cardiovascular disease or stroke that ups the ante tremendously.

BROWN: So, patients and doctors will continue to weigh the pros and cons of the Cox-2 drugs and people, being who they are, different patients will have different comfort levels when it comes to risk.

POLLINGER: I've heard the risks and in the whole scope of life on earth before we go to our future life this is -- it wasn't a big decision at this moment to make.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That is one side of the story.

Now another contradiction, another drug, today Merck, the maker of Vioxx, said it's considering putting the drug back on the market despite the risk of heart attack and stroke. So, again two sides of the equation, risk and benefit.

Here's CNN's Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's why it's really awesome.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we had one come back after the Army. That was a little rough or a while there but, yes, they're on their own and they're doing OK and now we can play.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, we have a technical problem there. We'll try and sort that out and we'll try and sort out some other things as well. Dr. Elizabeth Tindall joins us now from Washington. She's the president of the American College of Rheumatology in Boston; Dr. Jerry Avorn, professor of medicine at Harvard and the author of "Powerful Medicines," and it's good to see you both.

DR. ELIZABETH TINDALL, AMERICAN COLLEGE OF RHEUMATOLOGY: Thank you.

BROWN: There's a little bit of, I think, Cox-2 inhibitor 101 we need to do because there's been so much out there over the last couple of months. Jerry, do we know that these drugs relieve pain any better than aspirin or ibuprofen?

JERRY AVORN, M.D., AUTHOR, "POWERFUL MEDICINES": No, Aaron, we don't and what's striking and what sometimes gets forgotten about in the course of all this debate is that there are no studies out there showing that these drugs are stronger pain relievers than aspirin or Motrin or Naproxen or any of the other drugs that have been around for years.

Their one claim to fame had been that they'd be somewhat gentler on your stomach but if there had been a study that showed that Vioxx or Celebrex was stronger than Motrin or aspirin, I'm sure Merck and Pfizer would have shown it to us on commercials every night and we haven't seen those data because they don't exist.

BROWN: I want to come back to that question in a second.

Dr. Tindall, nevertheless patients, some patients certainly believe that these Cox-2 inhibitors do relieve pain that the Motrin and the aspirins did not, correct?

TINDALL: That is correct, Aaron, and I think it has to do with each individual patient trying different medications. Sometimes they work for a while. Sometimes they don't. And when you have people with arthritis who have pain for years they can go through a lot of different medications before they find one that works well for them.

And, although it's true there is not an improvement over pain say over traditional non-steroidals, nonetheless all these medications had to do to be approved was to say they were equal in potency. So, we have sort of changed the standard. Now we're asking them to be better as far as pain relief.

BROWN: OK. I'll go back against Jerry on this. Do we ever -- does the industry or the government or you guys at universities do you ever take two drugs and compare them? Do you ever say put aspirin next to Vioxx and run tests on those or is it always a placebo?

AVORN: Well, that's exactly the point, Aaron. Those are the exact kinds of studies that we need, that patients need, the doctors need, where you do a randomized trial.

It's controlled and people don't know what they're getting and you have patients like the kind that we just saw in that segment getting drugs for weeks to months and you see how is their pain relief doing? We don't have those studies because the companies don't like to do those studies.

BROWN: And the government doesn't do those studies at all?

AVORN: Exactly right. The FDA and the National Institutes of Health don't do the studies. Almost all the studies that we see about drug effects are done by the manufacturers and they would rather not compare their drug against other drugs if they can avoid it. The FDA standard is to compare it against a placebo. Sometimes you're lucky and you get some head-to-head studies but they're rare.

BROWN: Dr. Tindall, do you think the Cox-2 inhibitor drugs will even be on the market in a year?

TINDALL: Excuse me, could you repeat that?

BROWN: Do you think these drugs, the Cox-2 inhibitor drugs, will even be on the market available in a year?

TINDALL: Yes, I do believe there is a place for these medications and I heard the testimony today and I've heard some of the criticisms that have been laid out there.

But one of the things that has not come out is the incredible benefit that all of the patients who spoke today gave before the panel and I think that can't be overstated that patients need these medications. These medications are not for everybody, even though the marketing I agree was aimed at as wide an audience as possible and if I might say something about the double blind placebo trials.

BROWN: Sure.

TINDALL: With arthritis patients you really can't use a placebo because they're in pain and the studies that came out of long use placebo use compared to the Coxibs were in patients who didn't have pain. They were in polyp prevention or Alzheimer's prevention. So, it's very difficult to come up with a placebo trial when the patient is going to know after a few weeks I'm not really probably taking anything.

BROWN: All right, one more area for both of you and I want to try mine here and that's this whole question of what is and how we decide acceptable risk here? If you had any history in your family of heart disease, for example, is that an -- based on what we know today is that an unacceptable risk, Jerry, to take any of the Cox-2 drugs?

AVORN: I think I would agree with Dr. Tindall that it does need to be individualized for each patient and one's cardiac history is important but we don't really have the data that shows that these drugs are free of problems even if you don't have cardiac disease. So, it is a combination of facts and unfortunately even here in 2005, we don't have all the safety risk factors that we'd like to know about.

BROWN: Dr. Tindall, how do you tell patients to evaluate risk?

TINDALL: Well, I try to go through what the risk factors are for known cardiovascular or cerebral vascular disease and that would be diabetes, smoking, post menopausal, family history, elevated cholesterol, overweight, all of the usual parameters that you would use in assessing a patient's risk and then a use of a Coxib may be another independent risk factor.

And that was sort of asked to Dr. Graham and some of the members of the panel today and no one could really come up with when do you finally cross that line where the risk is unacceptable? No one really knows.

BROWN: Great, terrific. Thanks for that. We're working on it I guess. Hopefully at least a year from now we'll know more about it. Thanks.

TINDALL: I think so.

BROWN: Thank you both very much.

TINDALL: Thank you.

BROWN: If the Cox-2 saga is part blessing and part curse, this next story tonight is 100 percent blessing. The story takes place in northern California where Jerrick De Leon is recovering tonight from open heart surgery. His case will be one for the medical journals because even the smallest stack of medical journals vastly outweighs the patients. That's the headline of the story.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta takes us beyond the headline of one of the most delicate heart operations ever done.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA LOURDES, JERRICK'S MOTHER: What if I just pray hard that my baby reaches two pounds?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baby Jerrick was born weighing around just a pound and he also had a life- threatening heart defect. Doctors told his mother Maria, who is also a pediatrician, to abandon hope.

LOURDES: I told him, you know, like so you're not giving me any options here, you know. What is it that you want to -- what's the plan for the baby? It was very difficult. I was blocking a lot and I was just saying, you know, like I was just surrendering whatever comes.

GUPTA: But there was one option left and his name Dr. Mohan Reddy, a pediatric heart surgeon at Stamford and the only one willing to do the operation. In a last ditch effort, Jerrick was airlifted up the California coast. He was just a week old.

Jerrick suffered from what the surgeons call transposition of the great arteries. Simply, the large blood vessel that is supposed to take oxygenated blood to the body was switched with the blood vessel that takes blood to the lungs and the body was literally starving for air. Fixing it would be risky but the alternative was almost certain death.

DR. MOHAN REDDY, LUCILE PACKARD CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Just to give you an idea we just took a picture of the baby with a finger next to the chest and the whole baby's chest is pretty much the size of my finger and the incision is probably the tip of my finger. That's how big the chest -- whole chest is.

GUPTA: And the heart?

REDDY: I would say probably the size of a, you know, moderate sized grape maybe even smaller.

GUPTA: Still, after six hours, Dr. Reddy and his team completed a medical first. They switched the arteries back on what they believe is the smallest baby ever to survive this procedure and, at the same time, push back even further the boundaries of life and death.

REDDY: When you do cardiac surgery in children you are always living on the edge and unless you take risks you're not going to advance the field and you're not going to make progress.

GUPTA: In this case, progress is measured in a healthy baby and a happy mother.

REDDY: It's very joyous in the sense it's very satisfying that we can help this little tiny baby.

LOURDES: I'm a mother. I think I was always looking for the good side of it.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: More to come tonight, starting with a chilling turn of a romantic phrase, getting to know you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): This guy is getting to know all about you.

JAY PATEL, FOUNDER, ABIKA.COM: Why do we need privacy? That's the question like why do people need privacy?

BROWN: Meet a pioneer in the next gold rush. He's mining for data, maybe even your data. Interested in knowing what he knows?

Meet another pioneer, the first national intelligence director but director of what actually and of whom and with how much clout?

RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I don't think it's a powerful job. This is a miserable job. This is one of the hardest jobs in Washington.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say this is the most extreme example of this kind of culture where everyone mistrusts everyone else. BROWN: And this is the happiest place on earth, Michael Eisner and the battle for Disney.

OK, maybe this is a happier place, we'll look at the stories behind the cover and talk with the model on the cover, tan lines and all because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's possible that the most personal information on tens of thousands of Americans has been stolen. The database of an information collection company called Choice Point was essentially duped by thieves who now know everything from credit cards and driver's license and Social Security numbers to credit ratings and much, much more.

Most states don't require that you be told if you're one of the people at risk. The scam it turns out was pretty sophisticated but in many ways finding out the most detailed parts of people's lives is easy, very easy, just ask Jay.

Here's CNN Technology Correspondent Daniel Sieberg.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You might think of Wyoming as the perfect place in which to get lost. It's the tenth largest state in the union yet it's dead last in population, a haven for anonymity.

However, the cowboy state is where a lot of people are found, specifically the basement of this house on the outskirts of Cheyenne. This is the home of Jay Patel, founder of an Internet background search service called Abika.

PATEL: I don't even believe in privacy too much but first like most people when they discuss privacy why do we need privacy? That's the question like why do people need privacy?

SIEBERG: He says most people agree privacy isn't important. In fact, he says the world would be a better place if everyone knew everything about each other.

PATEL: Do you know the root cause of hatred or intolerance is because people don't know about other people.

SIEBERG: And Jay Patel says he's here to help. His company can track down a name from an e-mail address or instant message screen name, find an unlisted or blocked phone number, verify a person's salary. In fact, Abika has more than 300 ways for you to snoop on others and more than 300 ways for them to snoop on you.

(on camera): Do you ever worry that this information could fall into the wrong hands? People these days talk about terrorism or criminal activity do you worry about that?

PATEL: See but for us it's not something which anyone cannot find it by going directly to the source, so it's not something which is like exclusive to us. It's right there, so we are only searching it. We don't create this information and we don't access anything which is restricted. We are just a small company in the basement here.

SIEBERG (voice-over): When Jay and his staff receive a request for information they often get nothing more than a name and last known address. They send that information to private investigators, court researchers and keepers of various databases.

Abika will even create a psychological profile of a person, all this usually without the subject knowing he or she is being investigated. So, I decided to request a search on myself, at least I'd know about it.

(on camera): So, I mean you have my Social Security number. Is there the possibility that someone could steal my identity because this information is so easy to get?

PATEL: If you see, we don't release the Social Security number. The last four digits are X'd out so in your whole profile...

SIEBERG (voice-over): Right.

PATEL: ...you would see that it's not released to anyone.

SIEBERG: But could someone else find that as easily as you did?

PATEL: Social Security numbers are the easiest thing to find as such.

SIEBERG: A scary thought but Jay says Abika releases Social Security numbers only to qualified customers; however, we also ordered a general background search on another person and did get his Social Security number because it was the same as his driver's license number and that's just one of the things that has privacy advocates concerned about services like Abika.

MARC ROTENBERG, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFO. CTR.: These new information brokers that have sprouted up on the Internet are really operating in the wild, wild west. There is no regulation or control. Information that these companies provide becomes the basis for decisions about whether you get a job, about whether you clear a background check, about whether you're able to lease an apartment, maybe even whether you get a home loan. So, the risk is very tangible but a mistake will be made that you'll be turned down for an opportunity that you really are entitled to.

SIEBERG: Still, these data brokers have a lot of fans. Software executive Steve Kirsch uses Abika and other services to sue the senders of junk faxes.

STEVE KIRSCH, PROPEL SOFTWARE: Propel will get lots of unsolicited faxes and the only identification -- there will be no identification of the company on the faxes and so the only thing we'll have is an 800 number that we should dial, so we've used Abika to look up who owns the 800 number because when we call the 800 number, of course, they just give us a phony company name and a phony location.

SIEBERG (on camera): As proof that Jay's approach to privacy can work for some people, Jay actually points to his own situation. Before moving here to Wyoming, he lived in South Dakota and one day he was at a store there and he saw a girl and read her name tag.

He then went home and did a background search on her and when he returned to the store he told her some things about her that he had found. Now, surprisingly she didn't slap him. Instead three weeks later they were married.

(voice-over): But not all background checks have a happy ending. In 1999, in New Hampshire, Liam Youens used another Internet data broker called Docusearch to find out where a former high school classmate worked. He then shot and killed the woman, 20-year-old Amy Boyer (ph) as she left work. He also killed himself. Boyer's family sued Docusearch saying it should have told the woman she was being investigated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She went to work not knowing that her personal private information was given by Docusearch, the defendants, to someone who had no legal right to have it.

SIEBERG: But Docusearch argued it has no duty to check a customer's background.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He premeditated his crime and he killed her. Telling him where she worked didn't foreseeably increase the risk of anything. It didn't proximately cause anything. It had nothing to do with Amy Boyer's death.

SIEBERG: The suit was settled out of court last year with the Boyer family getting $85,000 but the background search industry is still going strong. As Youens wrote on his personal Web site, as he was planning his quest to kill Boyers, "It's actually obscene what you can find out about a person on the Internet." Comments like that have many people searching for the balance between openness and the obscene.

Daniel Sieberg CNN, Cheyenne, Wyoming.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still ahead tonight a picture of Disney that certainly doesn't resemble a magic kingdom.

And authorities weigh in on some lurid allegations against the comedian Bill Cosby.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Well, the country now has its first director of national intelligence. Today the president nominated John Negroponte, currently the ambassador to Iraq. If confirmed by the Senate, and that appears likely, Ambassador Negroponte will oversee 15 intelligence agencies and control the purse strings of all of them, well sort of.

Like so many other things in Washington and in life nothing is that simple and Congress and the president made sure the real power of the DNI isn't that simple either, more from our National Security Correspondent David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Power in Washington flows to those with access to the president and those with control of budgets and personnel. Mr. Bush sought to make clear the new director of national intelligence will have both.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He will have access on a daily basis in that he'll be my primary briefer.

ENSOR: On the estimated $40 billion intelligence budget spanning 15 different agencies, the president said Negroponte will determine who gets what.

BUSH: People make their case. There's a discussion. But ultimately, John will make the decisions on the budget.

ENSOR: Former Deputy Director of Central Intelligence John McLaughlin, who has joined CNN as an analyst, says Negroponte will have his work cut out for him.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: It's the legislation that empowers him. It's not as precise as everyone would like it to be in authorizing his powers. The legislation is, after all, the result of compromises during a difficult and contentious time in our country and therefore the language in many cases is what I would call kind of spongy.

ENSOR: Critics charge that the intelligence reform law that sets up the DNI job contains too much ambiguity about budget and personnel power. They predict trouble between Negroponte and the Pentagon.

FALKENRATH: I don't think a powerful job. This is a miserable job. This is one of the hardest jobs in Washington and it is so undefined that authorities are so ambiguous and the expectations are so high that it's unlikely to be a successful, fun experience for this person.

ENSOR: But the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee disagrees.

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), VICE CHMN., INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: If we had prescribed in Congress every relationship between each of the agencies, I think that would have been an enormous mistake and would have rendered this person more useless. This person can exercise power and I think that's good.

ENSOR: As ambassador in Iraq and before, Negroponte has been a consumer of intelligence but he has no intelligence experience. His new deputy, however, General Michael Hayden, head of the National Security Agency, is a seasoned hand. Many present and former intelligence professionals are praising the president's choice of Negroponte.

JAMES PAVITT, FMR. CIA SPY CHIEF: I think he will be a first rate leader of this organization.

ENSOR (on camera): Negroponte called it his most challenging assignment in 40 years and that may be putting it mildly. Being the first at anything is always harder but the ambassador has been good at setting up and leading teams in a number of jobs in government. CIA regulars, present and former, are promising him their full support.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Late word tonight concerning the comedian Bill Cosby. An investigation into a young woman's allegations that Mr. Cosby fondled her last year is now closed, no charges filed. Prosecutors say they found insufficient evidence.

No would that Michael Eisner's tenure as head of the Walt Disney Company -- and he's run the company for almost a generation -- has been anything but remarkable, remarkable in its successes early on, remarkable in its struggles more recently.

Most anyone who has ever met him who describe him as smart, tough and often funny. Some who work for him would describe him in more colorful ways.

James Stewart has written about Disney and Mr. Eisner. The book is called "DisneyWar." We talk with Mr. Stewart in a few moments.

But, first, as they say in Hollywood, the dish.

Here is CNN's Allan Chernoff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Stewart originally pitched Disney a book about the company's influence on American culture. But after a management shakeup, it turned into a look at Eisner's dirty laundry, enough so that author James Stewart has delivered a 534-page laundromat of a book, "DisneyWar."

Stewart depicts Disney CEO Eisner as a paranoid, backstabbing corporate titan. Behind the Magic Kingdom facade lies a corporate battleground, well documented in public scandals, like Jeffrey Katzenberg's lawsuit claiming Disney reneged on a promised bonus. The company settled for $280 million, or Eisner's ousting of Michael Ovitz, a close friend he recruited as president and soon fired with a reported $140 million exit package.

But after interviewing the key players, Stewart offers new details of Eisner's tactics. Only months after hiring Michael Ovitz, the book says, Eisner wrote to confidants on the board of directors: "Michael does not have the trust of anybody. I do not trust him. Michael Ovitz is simply not a corporate executive."

At about that time, Eisner, sitting next to Ovitz, told a different story on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

LARRY KING, HOST: So, Michael Eisner, you would hire Michael Ovitz again today?

MICHAEL EISNER, DISNEY CEO: Yes. Are you offering him again?

KING: No, all things being -- in other words...

(LAUGHTER)

EISNER: Yes. The answer is yes. The answer is yes.

KING: That would certainly clear up any rift stories.

(CROSSTALK)

EISNER: ... just all baloney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Within weeks, Eisner fired Ovitz. Eisner also tried to undermine Robert Iger, his next pick as Disney president. The book says Eisner told several board members, "Iger can never succeed me."

Though Eisner denies it in the book, Stewart reports, Eisner calls his theme park executives "monkeys who don't have any brains." Stewart has written in a narrative style without direct sourcing for specific events. Eisner has refused to comment, but Disney's public relations department calls the book "one-sided depiction of past events largely told through the eyes of those with a clear bias and personal agendas."

(on camera): After former board member Roy Disney led a revolt, Michael Eisner last year lost nearly half the shareholder vote for reelection. He gave up his position as chairman and said he will step down as chief executive when his contract expires in 2006.

Allan Chernoff, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next on the program, the author himself. We talk with James Stewart about his book "DisneyWar."

Also ahead, "Sports Illustrated"'s swimsuit issue. No kidding. We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: James Stewart is no stranger to the world of the rich and the infamous. He wrote "Den of Thieves," a look at insider trading on Wall Street. He also won a Pulitzer Prize for his work as a reporter and an editor at "The Wall Street Journal."

We talked with Mr. Stewart this afternoon about "DisneyWar".

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You've written a lot of business books. This is not hardly your first. Is there something about Hollywood and show business that, as a business, makes it unique to write about and I guess unique to read about?

JAMES STEWART, AUTHOR, "DISNEYWAR": Well, I have never encountered a sort of Machiavellian culture like I discovered when I went to Disney.

Now, I knew it wasn't going to be the happiest place on Earth, as it likes to proclaim as part of its brand image. But I thought it would be a fairly happy place. And it was like a dysfunctional family. Now, I've written about Wall Street. I've written about Washington. And I would say this is the most extreme example of this kind of culture where everyone mistrusts everyone else, where there's lying going on constantly, betrayals and backstabbing.

And I did wonder, is there something endemic in the entertainment industry? I think part of it may be that the objective measures of success, other than the box office, are so difficult to gauge.

BROWN: Do we see Eisner, at least as you see him, as he is? Is he a success? Is he a great -- did he have a great 20 years? Nobody is perfect? What is he in the end?

STEWART: Well, I think, in any good story, a character changes through time. But Eisner -- and you see Eisner change over the years. He starts out. He is a great success, tremendous success, amazing success by Hollywood standards. He consolidates power. And with power comes a certain amount of hubris. And then you begin to see that great trajectory taper off and at some point begin to plunge downward.

BROWN: So, he doesn't get to walk out the way I guess we would all like to walk out, without being pushed?

STEWART: No.

I mean, he doesn't -- he hates the idea that he was stripped of his title, but he was stripped of his title. He was repudiated. He did hang on too long. I think you can argue that, in the entertainment industry, nobody should run Disney or any of these companies for 20 years. But I thought of the recent -- reading the obituaries of Johnny Carson recently about he walked out at the top of his game, ceded the spotlight, retired gracefully, said nothing more, didn't try to have another act. That was really a classy way to go. That's not the Eisner way. I don't think Eisner can really see a future when he is not running Disney.

BROWN: Is that right?

STEWART: Well, in all of his conversations with me.

For example, he intimates rather strongly that he would be quite happy to be restored as the chairman, if the board would ask him to do that, and remain as some kind of chief creative officer into the indefinite future. Now, I think that's very unlikely to happen, and it probably shouldn't happen. But, to me, it shows how much the identity of the company and his own personality have fused into one.

BROWN: But it's just a hard thing, generally, for people to do, to walk off the stage at the top of their game in any -- you know, it doesn't happen in my business. It doesn't happen in sports very often.

It certainly doesn't happen in big corporations. It's a really hard thing for people to do.

STEWART: Well, and it's really hard in Hollywood. I mean, Eisner I think to this day is haunted that he is going to be a nobody overnight.

I don't think he will, but that's his fear. There are a couple stories in the book where, after he was fired by Paramount, he couldn't get a reservation at the hot restaurant Morton's (ph), and so he had to ask Michael Ovitz. Michael Ovitz called and Michael Ovitz immediately got a table.

And when Joe Roth was leaving, Eisner says, well, you don't want to leave. Nobody is going to return your phone calls. And Joe Roth said to Michael, Michael, that's called projection. People will return my phone calls. But, obviously, Eisner is very insecure about that.

BROWN: It's nice to see you. Good luck with the book. It's one of those books -- and partly I think because it's Disney, something about Disney and something about Hollywood -- people are talking about. So good for you.

STEWART: Well, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: James Stewart. We talked with him this afternoon.

Still ahead, spring is getting close. It must be. Pitchers and catchers have reported and the swimsuit issue is out as well.

And the rooster always joins us. Morning papers will wrap up the hour.

We'll take a break. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Like most men my age, I learned about sex the old- fashioned way, in one of the February issues of "Sports Illustrated."

Trust me. At 12, it was pretty hot stuff. At 56, it's still worth a discrete glance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It was born to fill a practical need, bridging the gap between the end of football and the time when anyone really cares about winter sports, the playoffs. At least that's their story over at "Sports Illustrated," and they're sticking to it.

DIANE SMITH, EDITOR, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" SWIMSUIT ISSUE: The image that I'm trying to capture is something that is a confident, wholesome, sexy, secure woman who looks great, has fun, feels great in a bathing suit and, you know, is healthy. I mean, I look for curves, obviously.

BROWN: She looks for curves. And so did the millions of, well, sports fans who read it each year. It's the most popular issue of "Sports Illustrated." And the magazine estimates that 60 million people will see it. That's about one in four Americans. Let's just say the swimsuit issue is a bigger draw than hockey.

SMITH: It's hard to realize or to believe how revolutionary that was, to have a bathing suit model on the cover of "Sports Illustrated." So, it had such a great response that it just grew, grew, grew to what it is now.

BROWN: Ms. Smith, we suspect, will not deny they are selling cheesecake here, but she insists it's a wholesome cheesecake, the sort of cheesecake dads and sons can enjoy together.

SMITH: It's a magazine that embodies like a great American tradition. It's totally innocent when you look at what's going on today.

BROWN: And we suppose that is a standard. It's not as racy as an ABC AFL promo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLETTE SHERIDAN, ACTRESS: Terrell, wait.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And that is, we learned, the art, after all. The swimsuit issue is all about the tease.

SMITH: I have an instinct. They have an instinct. We know where to stop and how to keep it still totally acceptable and wholesome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Carolyn Murphy is on the cover of "Sports Illustrated"'s swimsuit issue this year. Sammy Sosa, she is not.

She joins us from Los Angeles. It's nice to see you.

CAROLYN MURPHY, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" SWIMSUIT COVER MODEL: It's nice to see you, too. Thank...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So, are you upset about the NHL players strike?

MURPHY: No. You know, I wish I could say that I was. I'm not as up to date on it as I should be.

BROWN: Do you even like sports?

MURPHY: I do like sports. I grew up around sports. My father was a really big Redskins fan. I come from Virginia. I was a swimmer competitively for 11 years. And I'm a surfer. I love hiking, one of the reasons I live in California. I mean, I follow them as much as I can. But I've been very busy the past few days.

BROWN: I'll bet you have.

Is it -- in the world of modeling, is it -- is it a big deal to be the cover of "Sports Illustrated"? Is it a bigger deal than being the cover of "Glamour" or something?

MURPHY: Well, you know, personally, it's a very big deal. But, of course, in my career, it's huge. It's like the pinnacle of my career, besides getting in a contract with Estee Lauder. What every model aspires to is to be on the cover of magazines, to be out there, to be in the face of every household and become a household name.

And I think, with "Sports Illustrated," it targets a whole other demographic, which is why I was so proud when I found out about it. I was really excited, because it's not only just a woman's magazine. It's men as well.

BROWN: It's a men's magazine, actually, that some women read I think would be a fairer way to describe it, don't you think?

MURPHY: It's probably a better way to describe it, but I have to tell you, quite honestly, I've been looking at "Sports Illustrated" since I was a little girl.

I mean, it wasn't just my brother that was pinning the pictures on his walls. I remember looking at pictures of Rachel Hunter and Elle Macpherson saying, wow, I want to look like that. How great does that woman look? She has a healthy body. She's beautiful and she's glowing. And I think that every woman out there cannot deny the fact that they're going to be looking at the issue, too, for those reasons. BROWN: The -- the issue I think has always been edited by women or a woman. Does that change how the issue comes out because of that?

MURPHY: Well, I think, you know, it takes two to make a great magazine like this. Of course, most of the time, yes, it is for men. It's a sports-oriented magazine.

But how great is it to have an issue like this, to have these beautiful women on the covers and the inside? Because it sells. And it's -- we have women athletes in this issue. If you did not have a woman editor, it would just be all for the men. I think it's a perfect balance to have Diane Smith editing the magazine. She's great at it. She knows what also men want to see, but what women want to see. And that's important.

BROWN: Do they want to see different things?

MURPHY: Of course. I mean, they want to see different ethnicities. They want to see different body types. They want to see girls that are in a photo laughing and smiling. And they want to see women that are being sexy. And that's the fun of it.

BROWN: No, do men and women want to see different things? Will men and women see..

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: I'm serious, actually.

MURPHY: No.

BROWN: When they look at the picture, will they -- are women looking at something different from what men are looking at?

MURPHY: You know what? I think that it's really on an individual basis.

Of course, I know that, when I look at a picture of a woman, I like when she looks sexy. I like when she's having fun, you know, playing volleyball. Of course, the men have a different vision of that. I'm not a man, so I can't answer that.

BROWN: No, but you have a rough idea.

MURPHY: I have a rough idea.

BROWN: Yes, I think you do, too.

Next week or the week after, because this happens every year, "Sports Illustrated" will run five letters to the editor from people either threatening to cancel their subscription or objecting one way or another. What is it they don't get?

MURPHY: Well, what do you mean, what they don't get? They have -- they have -- I guess the ratio is less than 1 percent of people opt out. It's 98 percent subscription readers to this magazine. So, it's really -- I'm not sure what you're asking.

BROWN: I guess the question -- what I'm asking is, people who are offended by it, people who find it inappropriate for whatever reasons, what is it they're not seeing that everyone else sees?

MURPHY: You know, again, it's -- there's always going to be people there to stir the pot. You know, you -- there's always going to be people that are unhappy with something.

Generally, I would like to think that, overall, people love it. Again, the ratio of people that opt out of this, because they do have the choice, is less than 1 percent.

BROWN: Congratulations.

MURPHY: Thank you.

BROWN: It's a beautiful picture and it's a nice honor for you.

MURPHY: Thank you.

BROWN: And we're glad to have you on the program. Thank you.

MURPHY: Thank you. I'm proud. Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Carolyn Murphy.

We'll take a break. Morning papers when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Let's just set those over there. And we'll work with these tonight. Here we go. The glasses over there, Aaron.

"The Washington Times" leads it off, because it's on top. No other reason. "House Approves Class-Action Act. Measures Target -- Measure Targets Frivolous Lawsuits." Actually, the measure targets all class-action lawsuits, some of which are perhaps frivolous and some of which are not, but it moves them all into federal court, which is a tougher venue, lawyers say. That's an interesting headline, huh?

"Richmond Times-Dispatch," down here, if you will, please. "Senate Panel Rejects Abortion Measures. Fetal Anesthesia, Clinic Regulations Bill Defeated and Other Proposal Withdrawal" in the Virginia Senate. So that remains a front-page issue in the state of Virginia. I guess it's a front-page issue anywhere.

The two competing papers in Detroit. They used to have a hockey season. Now they just have the two newspapers competing. "The Detroit News" starts it off. "College Aid Changes Hurt the Poor. Governor's Merit Scholarship Proposal Means Less Federal Money For Some." I think that's unfortunate. People who -- it would nice if people who want to go to college can go to college. "The Detroit Free Press." "FDA to Rule on Fate of Pain Pills." We obviously like this story a lot, since it was our lead tonight. "State Bills For Taxes on Web and Cigarettes. At Least $1.7 Million Owed By Smokers Who Bought Online." Oh, I get it. I'm sorry. "State Bills For Taxes on Web Cigarettes."

"Attack of the Crows" in "The Des Moines Register." "The birds are leaving a mess across Iowa. Is there anything that can stop them?" What the heck ever happened to scarecrows? Wasn't that the whole point of scarecrows? Did crows figure that out and now they're not scared of scare crows anymore? This article will explain it.

How we doing on time?

"Rebuilding the Army" is "The Stars and Stripes" headline. "U.S. Forces Tasked With Training Iraqi Troops Report Progress, But No Definite End in Sight."

The weather in Chicago tomorrow -- do it with my right hand tonight -- "deceitful."

We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time to plan the early morning. Here is Bill Hemmer with a look at "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," a burning controversy has landed on the frozen outer reaches of the solar system. Is the planet Pluto really just a planet wanna-be? Neil deGrasse Tyson, the director of the Hayden Planetarium here in New York is -- he calls Pluto a pretender. It turns out Pluto has a lot of friends out there, too. We'll talk with Neil on that tomorrow morning starting at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time. Hope to see you then -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Going to boost our numbers in Pluto tomorrow.

Good to have you with us tonight. We're all back tomorrow around the world and perhaps around the universe 10:00 Eastern.

Until then, good night for all of us.

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