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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Race Against Time to Save Terri Schiavo's Life; Powers of the Brothers Bush Possibly not Enough to Save Terri Schiavo's Life

Aired March 23, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
The battle over Terri Schiavo's fate was fought on many fronts today. And for Terri Schiavo's parents -- and we'll talk to her father in just a moment -- it was a day filled with defeats.

The Federal Appeals Court in Atlanta refusing to order the reinsertion of their daughter's feeding tube. At the federal level now only the U.S. Supreme Court remains.

The Florida state judge refused to place Ms. Schiavo in state custody -- this as the Florida State Senate failed to pass a bill to reinsert Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube as well.

By the end of the day, the Department of Children and Families in Florida had asked a state court to consider allegations that Ms. Schiavo's husband has abused and exploited his wife.

The agency and Governor Jeb Bush are also challenging Ms. Schiavo's diagnosis. They point to the opinion of a neurologist who works for the state, who observed Ms. Schiavo at her bedside but did not formally examine her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: The neurologist's review indicates that Terri may have been misdiagnosed and it is more likely that she is in a state of minimal consciousness rather than in a state of a persistent vegetative state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The state judge in the case says he'll issue a ruling on the petition by noon tomorrow. That is the outline of the day, Terri Schiavo's fifth full day without food or water.

Ms. Schiavo's father, Bob Schindler, joins us now from Florida. Mr. Schindler, not a good day for you has it been?

BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Well, not really. It's not a good day for Terri. And I think there's indication today the neurologist that said Terri is not in PVS joins 33 other doctors who have stated that that have been totally ignored by this judge, Judge Greer, who's on a crusade to kill our daughter Terri. BROWN: Well, tell me where this goes next. Are your lawyers giving you any reason to be particularly optimistic the U.S. Supreme Court will be more helpful to you?

SCHINDLER: I don't think that the courts are going to be helpful at all. Actually they've banded together to uphold this one particular judge and we've had very little success in the courts. They're not hearing any of the evidence that we presented them.

And our only hope at this point, as we see it, is through the governor and the Department of Children and Families or very possibly the governor exercises his executive authority.

BROWN: And what is it that he...

SCHINDLER: It will go nowhere within...

BROWN: I'm sorry, sir.

SCHINDLER: What can he do?

BROWN: Yes, what can he do really?

SCHINDLER: Well, one thing he can do is to start to give my daughter water again and food, if nothing else, at least to put a stay in effect until they have an opportunity to investigate the case where Terri has been I say really railroaded into a death sentence by this particular judge, the Circuit Court judge that has a background in real estate and he has a crusade to kill this girl.

BROWN: Mr. Schindler, you're not a lawyer in this and I'm not either, so just help me through it. By what authority, if you know, could the governor order on his own without the court's approval, without the legislature passing a law, by his own authority order the feeding tubes reinserted?

SCHINDLER: It's my understanding he has the executive power to do that.

BROWN: And why then has he not done it?

SCHINDLER: I don't know. I think that the solution that he was looking to was the Department of Children and Families because of Terri's abuse over the years and there is so much evidence on how she was abused.

She had teeth rotting out of her mouth because of lack of dental care. She's never had any kind of a physical examination or any kind of female examination in ten, 12 years, no therapy in 12 years. She's locked into a room for five years, hasn't been outside in five years and has a wheelchair. I mean I can go on and on and on, and the Department of Children and Families...

BROWN: Go ahead, sir.

SCHINDLER: The Department of Children and Families they came in and they see where she's being abused by her guardian, which is her husband, and they're trying to intercede and this Judge Greer again has blocked that and derailed that whole program. So, in essence you can see now who's running this country.

BROWN: I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

SCHINDLER: By that I mean that the judges are running this country. It's not the people any longer. You have a judge like that, a Circuit Court judge, who can exercise so much influence and these other judges are backing him up and opposing the Congress. They're opposing the governor. I think the handwriting is on the wall.

BROWN: Mr. Schindler is there -- this is a difficult question to ask. Is there anything at this point that any doctor could say to you that would make you believe that the best outcome here, as sad an outcome as it is, would be to let your daughter pass?

SCHINDLER: I don't understand exactly what you mean by that, that we should let her go?

BROWN: No, sir. I'm asking you -- no, sir. I'm asking you if there's anything any doctor could say to you that would convince you of her medical condition is such that the best outcome would be to let her pass?

SCHINDLER: What we've been told by many, many doctors that if she was given proper therapy she could recover to a point where she could rejoin society. She'd never be 100 percent but she could improve. She talks. She's not in PVS. She responds. She's aware.

But she's not been treated in ten, 12 years. She's been left literally on a shelf in a room and the prognosis for Terri, the prognosis for her is that if she was given any kind of treatment, therapy, she could improve and that's what we've been told by dozens of doctors.

BROWN: Mr. Schindler, none of us who sit around and think about this or talk about this can imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes for all these years and we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you, sir, Bob Schindler.

SCHINDLER: Thank you for having me very much.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, Bob Schindler who is Terri Schiavo's father.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is with us. Dr. Gupta is in Atlanta. He is a practicing neurosurgeon and he can help us through some of the medical stuff. It's difficult listening to Mr. Schindler, as I'm sure you did too there.

He is persuaded that with therapy his daughter will be not 100 percent, as he said, but OK. I mean she could function. Is that, based on the science that we know, realistic?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I got to preface first of all, Aaron, to say that I have not examined Terri Schiavo. And I'm not trying to be trite here but a lot of people are making a lot of statements about her condition, about her diagnosis without having seen her or just on videotapes. That's probably not just wrong but probably irresponsible as well.

Now, if she is in a persistent vegetative state, if that in fact is her diagnosis for sure then, you know, I did some homework on this and there really have been no documented cases in any of the journals or any of the case reports that I read where someone from a truly diagnosed persistent vegetative state has recovered. And that's just, you know, based on the scientific data -- Aaron.

BROWN: And that's why we want you here tonight because it's rich with emotion and questions but there is also science here. We hear a lot -- and Mr. Schindler just said it again -- that there are many doctors who say, and yet another did today, that that is not her condition.

Isn't there a machine we can attach, a test we can run, data we can look at that answers this essential question what is going on in her brain?

GUPTA: Yes, this is one of the most difficult areas, Aaron. It's much easier, for example, to diagnose someone as brain dead, you know where they have a flat EEG. They don't have any flow, blood flow to their brain.

With persistent vegetative state it is a difficult thing for people to get their arms around because there is no single blood test. There is no single brain scan that is going to definitively make this diagnosis.

It is a clinical diagnosis, meaning someone has to examine the patient and come at this diagnosis and it is a state of wakeful unawareness. Even the term is sort of ironic. Wakeful unawareness, what does that mean?

A person is awake. They open their eyes. They close their eyes when it's time to sleep. They may react to a loud noise on one side of their head. They may smile, grimace, but they're not aware and that is the crucial thing.

If you ask them, Aaron, to hold up two fingers they won't do it because they're not aware. They won't track you with their eyes. These are clinical diagnosis that neurologists are trained to try and look for.

BROWN: Let me try one or two more quick ones. Is she suffering?

GUPTA: The right answer is I don't know and nobody knows because she can't tell us. But there have been a lot of -- there's objective ways to tell. If someone is in pain, their heart rate goes up. Their blood pressure may change, things like that. So there's objective ways to tell.

Also, when it comes to people who are an end of life situations, who are able to communicate, who have decided -- who are no longer being fed, they don't describe a state of suffering.

Again, this is science, Aaron. I know it's wrought with emotion but this is science. They say that as the body starts to break down muscle instead of fat your body goes into a state of what is known as ketosis. The term is not important but what happens is toxins go into the blood, which isn't painful. Some patients have even described this as euphoric, Aaron, ironic again.

BROWN: Sanjay, good to see you. Thanks for your help tonight.

GUPTA: Thank you.

BROWN: This is difficult stuff and we appreciate it. Thank you, Sanjay Gupta who's in Atlanta.

GUPTA: Sure.

BROWN: The question now about the images that we just saw and that we have been seeing now for weeks -- in some cases for years -- to what extent does what we see affect how we see it?

Depending on where you stand, Terri Schiavo either has the great good fortune or the horrible fate of living in the modern age. There is machinery not just for prolonging life but also for recording the moments in that life and, of course, for broadcasting those moments day in and day out.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Just this once let's pause and ask one question. Would the Terri Schiavo case have reached this level of intensity without these images?

Well, why did Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader and a heart surgeon question the idea that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state?

SEN. BILL FRIST, MAJORITY LEADER: My question is based on a review of the video footage, which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office, she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.

GREENFIELD: Virginia Republican Senator George Allen, a layman, cited the same evidence.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: For a woman who, when I observe her on videotapes, clearly is conscious and has the ability to feel.

GREENFIELD: And today, in announcing attempts by a state government agency to intervene on Terri Schiavo's behalf, Florida Governor Jeb Bush cited the conclusions of a neurologist who, among other things, reviewed the videos.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.

GREENFIELD (on camera): But what do these images, a few seconds pulled from hours of tapes nearly four years old, what do they tell us? Are they pieces of evidence that Terri Schiavo is responding to the outside world or do they in some fundamental sense mislead us?

(voice-over): University of Wisconsin law professor Alta Charo clearly thinks so.

PROFESSOR ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL: Oh, I think it's a profound impact, not only on lay people, on politicians. I mean politicians are human beings. They look at these videotapes.

They find it emotionally impossible to believe this woman is really unconscious and without any hope of recovery. And, of course, they begin to wonder isn't there something we should be doing to step into the situation?

Sad to say most people simply don't understand enough medicine to understand how this condition is even possible. This kind of condition, permanent vegetative state, the reflexes of waking and sleeping, of the hands opening and closing, of the yawning, all of those are so similar to what we do when we're awake that we tend to project and believe that there is a consciousness there, as there would be for ourselves. It's just irresistible for humans to do this.

GREENFIELD: That is the conclusion that the Florida courts have consistently reached but it is not the conclusion reached by the doctors who were hired by Terri Schiavo's parents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman is not in a coma. This woman is not in a PVS state.

GREENFIELD: And this is what has given that videotape such potency. If there's any doubt at all, the argument goes, you must resolve it on behalf of life. Whatever the medical facts, it is not hard to understand why the average person looking at those images sees them as at least raising doubt.

(on camera): Big, sweeping questions surround this case, the role of the courts and legislatures, the reach of federal power, the proper way to determine when a life is genuinely over.

Thousands of words will be used trying to deal with these questions but in this case those few images may well carry more weight than all those thousands of words.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Much more ahead tonight on the Schiavo case which is above all a story of families.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The Schiavo's, the Schindler's, and the Bush's.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have not discussed the next steps with my brother, who is the governor of Florida.

J. BUSH: I'm doing everything within my power to make sure that Terri is afforded at least the same rights that criminal convicted of the most heinous crimes take for granted.

BROWN: Two powerful brothers, part of the drama unfolding.

Two more court rulings today siding with Michael Schiavo what does the court's consistency say? Why are all the rulings going Mr. Schiavo's way? And what does all this look like to someone who struggles with life every day and savors it?

HARRIET MCBRYDE JOHNSON, AUTHOR, "TOO LATE TO DIE YOUNG": I've had people come up to me and say "I'd rather be dead if I had to live like you." Now, what if that person shows up in an emergency room with a spinal cord injury, they're temporarily unable to speak? Are we going to let their next of kin starve them to death? I don't think that's where we want to go.

BROWN: A fresh voice in a most complicated debate.

From New York and around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The pictures from outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo resides -- now five days without food or water -- as the battle over her life takes place in the courts, and in a moment why the courts have done what they have done consistently in the Schiavo case.

First, a little past a quarter past the hour, time for some of the other stories that made news today. We're joined again tonight by Erica Hill in Atlanta -- Erica, good evening.

(NEWSBREAK)

BROWN: Erica, thank you.

As a rule, political brother acts tend to go towards separate paths. Think Richard and Donald Nixon or Bill and Roger Clinton, if you will. There are, however, notable exceptions -- John and Bobby Kennedy or George and Jeb Bush today in the Schiavo matter.

Here's our Senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Late morning, Waco, Texas, President Bush making it clear if the federal courts don't intervene to save Terri Schiavo he sees no way he can do more.

G. BUSH: And now we'll watch the courts make its decisions. But we looked at all options from the executive branch perspective.

KING: Oh, and by the way...

G. BUSH: I have not discussed next steps with my brother, who is the governor of Florida.

KING: Two-and-a-half hours later, Tallahassee, Florida, Governor Jeb Bush saying he now believes he has the executive authority to at least temporarily restore Schiavo's feeding tube.

J. BUSH: We're exhausting all executive options.

KING: The role of the brothers Bush is a remarkable subplot to the legal and political battle over Schiavo and the broader debates over the right to life and the right to die.

KEITH APPEL, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: The Congress, the president, the legislature, the governor in Florida have all bent over backwards. They've all gone to remarkable lengths, certainly unprecedented lengths in my lifetime and in the lifetimes of most people to try to save the life of this one woman.

KING: For years, this was Jeb Bush's fight in the Florida legislature and in the state courts. President Bush stepped in when it appeared his brother's options at the state level were exhausted, supporting and then rushing back from Texas to sign extraordinary legislation shipping the Schiavo fight to the federal courts. Very different in political style, the president acknowledges he tends to be blunt. His brother is more soft-spoken.

President Bush is a devout Christian. His brother, the governor, a convert to Catholicism, both outspoken in their support for what they call a culture of life, opposition to abortion and cloning, strict limits on stem cell research and now extraordinary executive efforts in the Schiavo case that won praise from social conservatives but run contrary to majority opinion in the United States and, critics say, contrary to years of legal precedent.

KATHRYN TUCKER, LEGAL ANALYST: But it has been an act that is such a gross overreaching of the bounds of federal authority.

KING (on camera): Two brothers, one the chief executive of Florida, the other the chief executive of the United States, their considerable powers perhaps not enough to win a fight they insist is motivated by deep moral beliefs not, as some critics say, by politics.

John King, CNN, Crawford, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The extraordinary legal step that John just referred to would allow the federal court to look at the same data and hear essentially the same arguments that state courts in Florida have heard for years.

And, Governor Bush is essentially correct when he says the most heinous criminals have that right. Death penalty cases after state review are looked at by the federal courts. So, why now have two courts, the District Court in Florida and the appeals court in Atlanta refused to take that look or allow that look?

Attorney B. J. Bernstein joins us from Atlanta tonight, nice to see you. I guess there's no simple legal answer but give me the simplest answer you can. Why not just issue the temporary restraining order, hear the evidence in federal court? We do it in death penalty cases. Why can't -- why not do it here?

B. J. BERNSTEIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because as the court said in its opinion we're a nation of laws and what we do in this case is going to apply to a lot of cases that come down the road and so the court's got to apply the law as it stands now.

And the law says in this type of case that you've got, in order to get an emergency injunction, you have to show a substantial likelihood that you're going to succeed. And the court looked at that and said, you know, it's just not there.

BROWN: The conundrum I think was detailed by the one dissenting judge in the appeals court who said essentially if we don't do this we can never even look at the facts of it because she will have passed away.

BERNSTEIN: He has a point there that, you know, if they don't look at it but at the same time when you look at what the majority says, it's interesting. The majority opinion cites specifically to the conversations that were had in Congress between Congressman Levin and Congressman Frist.

And during that conversation it was asked, when we pass this special law in this case for this one case are we requiring the federal court to absolutely grant a stay? Or are we going to let it be what the law is for everyone in this country, which is that the federal court can turn it down? It's only the word "may."

BROWN: I'm sorry. This essentially centers then on either the word "shall" or the word "may"?

BERNSTEIN: Correct. And in law, although that seems like a small difference, in legal terms it's a huge difference. Is it an absolute -- when Congress made this law was it an absolute that they tell the federal court you must give this -- you know, look at everything and have the stay?

But they didn't choose that and we know from looking at the conversation back and forth during the congressional hearings that Congress was aware that they weren't doing that and that...

BROWN: B. J., I'm sorry, just based on history, which is all we can go on here, is it likely the U.S. Supreme Court will take this case?

BERNSTEIN: It's really not likely, Aaron. You know, it's been to the U.S. Supreme Court twice before and has been refused to be looked at. It will go to Justice Kennedy first because this is the circuit that he's assigned to look at initially. It's very doubtful.

BROWN: Good to have you with us. Thanks for your help.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: Appreciate it.

Coming up on the program tonight for all the dissent surrounding it, the Schiavo case has created at least one piece of common ground. It has us all talking and talking about something important, when we return more voices and more views.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There is in the country right now, and it doesn't happen often, a national conversation going on. Terri Schiavo's tragedy, which is also her husband's and, if you were with us at the beginning, clearly her parents' has led many of us to think again about some of the most basic and important questions there are.

What is life? Who decides when it can or should end? How do we know? This conversation is going on at dinner tables. It's going on in bed at night. It goes on in the quiet of our hearts. And like the issues it raises, Terri Schiavo and bless her for it, has made this conversation unavoidable.

Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The drama of what may be the final days for Terri Schiavo is playing out all across the land among millions who have never met her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri certainly is in need of being rescued and we continue to pray and work for that.

FOREMAN: Religious communities have galvanized for prayer and protest.

DAN BODIN, CATHOLIC BROTHER: Obviously the hope is that the feeding tube will be reinstated and I think again a respect for life is the main issue.

FOREMAN: But the debate is reaching a remarkably wide audience. At George Washington University in D.C. we sat down with a group of law, ethics and media students. All of them are following this case.

How many of you agree with this notion that this is a private issue, the government shouldn't be involved?

ANDREW SKOLNICK, LAW STUDENT: The thing it really comes down to there are certain religious groups that are trying to enforce their religious beliefs on everyone.

SOGAND ZAMANI, LAW STUDENT: It has to stop somewhere. There's an endless moral debate about it.

FOREMAN: Plenty were concerned about Congress effectively overriding state law on this case but Rachel Zavala (ph) says ignoring pleas for any life is unthinkable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I personally think it's atrocious and she should have the right to live.

FOREMAN: No matter how difficult Terri Schiavo's life may seem.

PAUL GOODELL, PHILOSOPHY STUDENT: Objectively verifiable signs of life, a soul, whatever we -- we call human life, are gone.

RACHEL ZAVALA, JOURNALISM STUDENT: She still has a soul. You may not see much reaction out of her. You see her head move back and forth. But she still has her soul.

GOODELL: I'm saying what we can verify.

FOREMAN (on camera): Perhaps the reason Terri Schiavo's case has captured so much public attention is that, for many people, it is not really about her. It's about all of our rights to live and to die and to choose.

(voice-over): So, despite the new claim by a neurologist that Schiavo was misdiagnosed, many doctors still say she will never recover.

DR. RONALD CRANFORD, NEUROLOGIST: There was never any doubt about her diagnosis, not a shred of doubt ever. She's been like this since 1990.

FOREMAN: Other people say she might.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think doctors are always right.

FOREMAN: And still others see a woman trapped in the middle.

JAMES WALKER, COMMUNICATIONS STUDENT: I think this is about a big political fight, but it's affecting her in every way.

FOREMAN: And this debate for many people now really is a matter of life and death.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come tonight, a voice not yet heard in this debate.

And, later, morning papers, because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a shouting match, quiet voices are the first casualty. And, in one sense, this is a shouting match. But, as we said a moment ago, it has also become a larger national discussion, and, in that venue, quiet voices, different voices, might have a better chance.

Harriet McBryde Johnson is a lawyer and the author of "Too Late to Die Young." We spoke with her this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you, as you look at the case, have any reason to believe that Ms. Schiavo has not received appropriate due process?

HARRIET MCBRYDE JOHNSON, AUTHOR, "TOO LATE TO DIE YOUNG": Well, I will tell you, I'm very concerned about the basic idea that a feeding tube is life support. To me, that's a prime example of the disability prejudice that's so rampant in our society.

For those of us who are connected with the real world of real lives with disability, a feeding tube is very often the most convenient, practical way to eat. It's a simple piece of assistive technology. And so, the fact that the Florida courts have said that that somehow puts her in a different category when it comes to whether she should live or die, to me, gives me real concern. And I think that we as a society ought to make them justify that.

BROWN: OK. With due respect, it's not quite fair to say that the only factor in, as far as I know at least, in any court decision -- it's been looked at by lots of courts and lots of judges -- that the only factor here is that she's on a feeding tube and she's kept alive on a feeding tube. There are other medical questions that have also come into play.

JOHNSON: Well, I think the feeding tube is what is used to say that this is withdrawal of life support or an end of life decision, as opposed to out-and-out killing. It's the feeding tube that's used to define her as terminally ill. It's the feeding tube that is called life support. And so, I mean, I think, you know, there are other factors as well.

But the fact that that is one factor, to me, raises an ADA issue to say, well, is a feeding tube life support?

BROWN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Does it put someone in a different category? Or should we throw that out of the analysis altogether and recognize that feeding tubes for people who need them are useful devices?

BROWN: Let me try and ask the question a little bit differently. No state in the country allows a non-terminally ill person to commit suicide. Every state in the country would intervene in that matter.

Ms. Schiavo clearly to me is not terminally ill in the way we think about terminal illness. So, regardless of her wishes -- and let's just accept for this moment that those in fact are her wishes -- regardless of those wishes, should -- is it appropriate for a non- terminal person to end their life or to have assistance in ending their life?

JOHNSON: Well, I think the key distinction is that we have an incapacitated person and someone else making the decision.

I would say that there are a few decisions that each of us can only make for ourselves. And one of those is to give up our lives. And here we have a substitute decision-maker claiming to have the right to end another person's life, again, based on disability, which is a stigmatized minority group. But one person says, I can end my wife's life because of her disability.

And I think, for that decision to be valid, there ought to be real solemn documents, like a properly executed health care proxy, that says, absolutely, after advice, this is what I want, because the truth is that many, many people say casually throughout their lives, I'd rather be dead than disabled. I've had people come up to me and say, I would rather be dead if I had to live like you.

But the reality is that most people adapt. Most people go on to lead good lives that they could never have imagined. And this case is a particularly tough one. But the law applies to all people. And I think it's just a dangerous idea to say that we're going to let a substitute decision-maker authorize the killing of another person based on fairly casual statements they made without any particular knowledge of what they were talking about.

BROWN: It's really nice to meet you. I appreciate your time. Thanks.

JOHNSON: OK.

BROWN: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Harriet McBryde Johnson, we talked to her this afternoon, among the many voices we've listened to and will continue to listen to in this story.

When we come back, the latest headlines of the day from Atlanta.

As we head to break, the vigil outside the hospice in Florida tonight. Terri Schiavo, five days now without food or water. The U.S. Supreme Court the next legal stop in the federal system for her, and not much optimism that the court will intervene.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Part of our anniversary series "Then and Now," we look back tonight at the career of the designer Armani and where it all is today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is known as the king of Italian fashion. Giorgio Armani became a household name in the 1980s, when Richard Gere in American Gigolo famously showed off his collection of shirts, jackets and ties.

In 1982, he was the first fashion designer to appear on the cover of Time magazine since Christian Dior in the 1950s. Armani revolutionized the wardrobe of men and women alike, introducing a style of relaxed elegance and pale colors.

In the 1990s, he became the designer of choice for Hollywood stars, and was among the first to approach celebrities to wear his creations.

GIORGIO ARMANI, DESIGNER (through translator): I'm perceived as one who makes only serious clothes, for the working woman, the woman who has no strange ideas when, in fact, I'd like to think I have a clientele who is a little crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Armani expanded quickly, licensing eyewear, cosmetics and a fragrance, turning his business into a multibillion- dollar fashion powerhouse.

In 1998, he opened his first store in China. And last year, he inaugurated his winter collection in Shanghai. Fashion, he says, has no boundaries. At 70, Armani is celebrating 30 years running his own fashion line.

ARMANI (thought translator): It seems like yesterday. In fact, it's been 30 years of commitment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: CNN celebrates 25 years of broadcasting this year. We continue to look back at yesterday's newsmakers and where they are today.

Quarter to the hour: time for other headlines of the day, Erica Hill again in Atlanta -- Erica.

HILL: Good evening to you, Aaron.

In Texas City, Texas, the search continues now for the bodies or survivors after a massive explosion at an oil refinery there. At least 14 employees were killed. More than 100 were hurt. The cause of the blast is under investigation. But nearby residents said the force could be felt as far as five miles.

A federal jury in Texas has convicted a truck driver of transporting illegal immigrants in the nation's deadliest smuggling attempt. The judge declared a mistrial on the most serious charges after jurors were deadlocked, meaning no death penalty there; 19 people died after being crammed inside the hot tractor trailer in 2003.

President Bush and his counterparts to the north and south have agreed to cooperate more on security and economic issues. The announcement came during a meeting in Texas Wednesday. There's been some tension between the three leaders since Mexico and Canada objected to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

And that is the latest from Headline News at this hour -- Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Erica, thank you. A nice break.

Now this is where we turn to news that is altogether different than where we've been so far tonight, to the future, as it were, where graffiti art that you might expect to see on an underpass or a subway car is morphing into something new and old at the same time, young artist "On the Rise."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOZE GREEN, GRAFFITI ARTIST: My name is Doze Green. Traditionally, I would be what you would call a graffiti artist.

I first got introduced to street art or graffiti art around the age of 11. There was a graffiti contest at my junior high school. I joined the contest. I didn't win, but it just sparked something in me from that point on.

It was a way of expressing myself. These are works I'm working on currently for a show in Milan. I still paint on walls. But, for the most part, I'm painting in my studio.

I never really thought of my work going legal or never in my wildest dreams did I think that painting subway trains would lead up to galleries and museum shows. I just recently had an exhibit in Los Angeles at a Studio One Gallery. My works have exhibited in Europe, in Paris, in England, in Manchester, Australia, Japan, all over the world actually right now.

I'm thinking this bronze is going to be cool, though. I'm going to try it, all right? I would describe my art as someone who is pushing the line that defines graff art and fine art. I tend to, like, paint a lot of classical things that have been rehashed throughout the ages. And I'm just approaching them with a graffiti influence and a more 21st century outlook.

Altoids commissioned us to paint this wall last summer. I worked with a few companies here and there. This is our section of the wall we did. It helps them. It helps us. It creates publicity for their image, youth-oriented. It's now. It's fresh.

Royal Elastics is a shoe company, and they wanted us to go on this tour to promote their new line of footwear. What they wanted me to do was perform live painting. I have actually been doing live painting for about 10 years now. I've done it all over the world. And wherever I go, people, they always come up to me and they just say, it's amazing to see the energy that is being transferred between you and the deejay and the audience. I kind of feed off that. I think I've retained that rawness and the truthfulness and spark that comes from graffiti artists. And that will always be there. That's not going to leave.

What I'm doing is a new vocabulary, new ways of looking at the same thing, just with a twist. Whether it's accepted by the elite or the guy in the street, what's important to me is that people in general feel my work.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check the morning papers from around the country and around the world.

The "International Herald Tribune," published in Paris and read around the world. The Terri Schiavo story really has become an international story. "Two More Courts Bar Reinserting Feeding Tube" is the headline story in the "International Herald Tribune."

"The Christian Science Monitor." Around the dinner table, "Talk of End of Life Care. The Schiavo Case Provides Deeply Personal Questions About Living Wills and Last Wishes." Our last guest tonight when she said, a lot of people casually say, I don't want to live that way, I think we'll all think about that for a while. I'll think about that for a while.

"The Washington Times." "Schiavo's Parents Turn to Supreme Court. Florida Senate Rejects Feeding Tube Legislation." Also, lost in the day somewhat, the president met with Vicente Fox, president of Mexico. "Mexico Accused of Abusing Its Illegals. U.S. Report Cites Rights Violations." "The Washington Times" likes stories about illegal immigration and tends to front-page them.

"Philadelphia Inquirer." "Schiavo Legal Battle Waning. Court Challenge. On 10-2 Vote, U.S. Appellate Judges Decline to Hear Case."

I think that's such a really interesting part of it, that the law has to stand for everyone. It can't stand for just one case. I know how frustrated Mr. Schindler sounded at the beginning of the program -- and not frustrated, angry, didn't he?

"The Times Herald Record," Upstate New York. "No to Schiavo's Parents" the lead. Down here, can you get the shot, Ed? "You Call This Spring?" It was snowing in New York. That's a more gentle way than I would put it.

We'll come back and wrap up the day in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We end the night where we began, the Schiavo case and the next step. Joe Johns is at the U.S. Supreme Court tonight -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the parents of Terri Schiavo have now filed their application for emergency action before the United States Supreme Court.

This is it. It is a lengthy document. We haven't had time to read it all. But the first two sentences of the conclusion say: "The implications of the judicial death order, which was the outcome of this litigation, are ominous for all persons with disabilities" -- back to you. It has been filed, Aaron.

BROWN: And we'll see tomorrow. We'll know more tomorrow about what the court will do. Joe, it will be one of the major stories of the day and probably for several more days to come.

Good to have you with us tonight. We'll see you tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 23, 2005 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
The battle over Terri Schiavo's fate was fought on many fronts today. And for Terri Schiavo's parents -- and we'll talk to her father in just a moment -- it was a day filled with defeats.

The Federal Appeals Court in Atlanta refusing to order the reinsertion of their daughter's feeding tube. At the federal level now only the U.S. Supreme Court remains.

The Florida state judge refused to place Ms. Schiavo in state custody -- this as the Florida State Senate failed to pass a bill to reinsert Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube as well.

By the end of the day, the Department of Children and Families in Florida had asked a state court to consider allegations that Ms. Schiavo's husband has abused and exploited his wife.

The agency and Governor Jeb Bush are also challenging Ms. Schiavo's diagnosis. They point to the opinion of a neurologist who works for the state, who observed Ms. Schiavo at her bedside but did not formally examine her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: The neurologist's review indicates that Terri may have been misdiagnosed and it is more likely that she is in a state of minimal consciousness rather than in a state of a persistent vegetative state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The state judge in the case says he'll issue a ruling on the petition by noon tomorrow. That is the outline of the day, Terri Schiavo's fifth full day without food or water.

Ms. Schiavo's father, Bob Schindler, joins us now from Florida. Mr. Schindler, not a good day for you has it been?

BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Well, not really. It's not a good day for Terri. And I think there's indication today the neurologist that said Terri is not in PVS joins 33 other doctors who have stated that that have been totally ignored by this judge, Judge Greer, who's on a crusade to kill our daughter Terri. BROWN: Well, tell me where this goes next. Are your lawyers giving you any reason to be particularly optimistic the U.S. Supreme Court will be more helpful to you?

SCHINDLER: I don't think that the courts are going to be helpful at all. Actually they've banded together to uphold this one particular judge and we've had very little success in the courts. They're not hearing any of the evidence that we presented them.

And our only hope at this point, as we see it, is through the governor and the Department of Children and Families or very possibly the governor exercises his executive authority.

BROWN: And what is it that he...

SCHINDLER: It will go nowhere within...

BROWN: I'm sorry, sir.

SCHINDLER: What can he do?

BROWN: Yes, what can he do really?

SCHINDLER: Well, one thing he can do is to start to give my daughter water again and food, if nothing else, at least to put a stay in effect until they have an opportunity to investigate the case where Terri has been I say really railroaded into a death sentence by this particular judge, the Circuit Court judge that has a background in real estate and he has a crusade to kill this girl.

BROWN: Mr. Schindler, you're not a lawyer in this and I'm not either, so just help me through it. By what authority, if you know, could the governor order on his own without the court's approval, without the legislature passing a law, by his own authority order the feeding tubes reinserted?

SCHINDLER: It's my understanding he has the executive power to do that.

BROWN: And why then has he not done it?

SCHINDLER: I don't know. I think that the solution that he was looking to was the Department of Children and Families because of Terri's abuse over the years and there is so much evidence on how she was abused.

She had teeth rotting out of her mouth because of lack of dental care. She's never had any kind of a physical examination or any kind of female examination in ten, 12 years, no therapy in 12 years. She's locked into a room for five years, hasn't been outside in five years and has a wheelchair. I mean I can go on and on and on, and the Department of Children and Families...

BROWN: Go ahead, sir.

SCHINDLER: The Department of Children and Families they came in and they see where she's being abused by her guardian, which is her husband, and they're trying to intercede and this Judge Greer again has blocked that and derailed that whole program. So, in essence you can see now who's running this country.

BROWN: I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

SCHINDLER: By that I mean that the judges are running this country. It's not the people any longer. You have a judge like that, a Circuit Court judge, who can exercise so much influence and these other judges are backing him up and opposing the Congress. They're opposing the governor. I think the handwriting is on the wall.

BROWN: Mr. Schindler is there -- this is a difficult question to ask. Is there anything at this point that any doctor could say to you that would make you believe that the best outcome here, as sad an outcome as it is, would be to let your daughter pass?

SCHINDLER: I don't understand exactly what you mean by that, that we should let her go?

BROWN: No, sir. I'm asking you -- no, sir. I'm asking you if there's anything any doctor could say to you that would convince you of her medical condition is such that the best outcome would be to let her pass?

SCHINDLER: What we've been told by many, many doctors that if she was given proper therapy she could recover to a point where she could rejoin society. She'd never be 100 percent but she could improve. She talks. She's not in PVS. She responds. She's aware.

But she's not been treated in ten, 12 years. She's been left literally on a shelf in a room and the prognosis for Terri, the prognosis for her is that if she was given any kind of treatment, therapy, she could improve and that's what we've been told by dozens of doctors.

BROWN: Mr. Schindler, none of us who sit around and think about this or talk about this can imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes for all these years and we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you, sir, Bob Schindler.

SCHINDLER: Thank you for having me very much.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, Bob Schindler who is Terri Schiavo's father.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is with us. Dr. Gupta is in Atlanta. He is a practicing neurosurgeon and he can help us through some of the medical stuff. It's difficult listening to Mr. Schindler, as I'm sure you did too there.

He is persuaded that with therapy his daughter will be not 100 percent, as he said, but OK. I mean she could function. Is that, based on the science that we know, realistic?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I got to preface first of all, Aaron, to say that I have not examined Terri Schiavo. And I'm not trying to be trite here but a lot of people are making a lot of statements about her condition, about her diagnosis without having seen her or just on videotapes. That's probably not just wrong but probably irresponsible as well.

Now, if she is in a persistent vegetative state, if that in fact is her diagnosis for sure then, you know, I did some homework on this and there really have been no documented cases in any of the journals or any of the case reports that I read where someone from a truly diagnosed persistent vegetative state has recovered. And that's just, you know, based on the scientific data -- Aaron.

BROWN: And that's why we want you here tonight because it's rich with emotion and questions but there is also science here. We hear a lot -- and Mr. Schindler just said it again -- that there are many doctors who say, and yet another did today, that that is not her condition.

Isn't there a machine we can attach, a test we can run, data we can look at that answers this essential question what is going on in her brain?

GUPTA: Yes, this is one of the most difficult areas, Aaron. It's much easier, for example, to diagnose someone as brain dead, you know where they have a flat EEG. They don't have any flow, blood flow to their brain.

With persistent vegetative state it is a difficult thing for people to get their arms around because there is no single blood test. There is no single brain scan that is going to definitively make this diagnosis.

It is a clinical diagnosis, meaning someone has to examine the patient and come at this diagnosis and it is a state of wakeful unawareness. Even the term is sort of ironic. Wakeful unawareness, what does that mean?

A person is awake. They open their eyes. They close their eyes when it's time to sleep. They may react to a loud noise on one side of their head. They may smile, grimace, but they're not aware and that is the crucial thing.

If you ask them, Aaron, to hold up two fingers they won't do it because they're not aware. They won't track you with their eyes. These are clinical diagnosis that neurologists are trained to try and look for.

BROWN: Let me try one or two more quick ones. Is she suffering?

GUPTA: The right answer is I don't know and nobody knows because she can't tell us. But there have been a lot of -- there's objective ways to tell. If someone is in pain, their heart rate goes up. Their blood pressure may change, things like that. So there's objective ways to tell.

Also, when it comes to people who are an end of life situations, who are able to communicate, who have decided -- who are no longer being fed, they don't describe a state of suffering.

Again, this is science, Aaron. I know it's wrought with emotion but this is science. They say that as the body starts to break down muscle instead of fat your body goes into a state of what is known as ketosis. The term is not important but what happens is toxins go into the blood, which isn't painful. Some patients have even described this as euphoric, Aaron, ironic again.

BROWN: Sanjay, good to see you. Thanks for your help tonight.

GUPTA: Thank you.

BROWN: This is difficult stuff and we appreciate it. Thank you, Sanjay Gupta who's in Atlanta.

GUPTA: Sure.

BROWN: The question now about the images that we just saw and that we have been seeing now for weeks -- in some cases for years -- to what extent does what we see affect how we see it?

Depending on where you stand, Terri Schiavo either has the great good fortune or the horrible fate of living in the modern age. There is machinery not just for prolonging life but also for recording the moments in that life and, of course, for broadcasting those moments day in and day out.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Just this once let's pause and ask one question. Would the Terri Schiavo case have reached this level of intensity without these images?

Well, why did Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader and a heart surgeon question the idea that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state?

SEN. BILL FRIST, MAJORITY LEADER: My question is based on a review of the video footage, which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office, she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.

GREENFIELD: Virginia Republican Senator George Allen, a layman, cited the same evidence.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: For a woman who, when I observe her on videotapes, clearly is conscious and has the ability to feel.

GREENFIELD: And today, in announcing attempts by a state government agency to intervene on Terri Schiavo's behalf, Florida Governor Jeb Bush cited the conclusions of a neurologist who, among other things, reviewed the videos.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.

GREENFIELD (on camera): But what do these images, a few seconds pulled from hours of tapes nearly four years old, what do they tell us? Are they pieces of evidence that Terri Schiavo is responding to the outside world or do they in some fundamental sense mislead us?

(voice-over): University of Wisconsin law professor Alta Charo clearly thinks so.

PROFESSOR ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL: Oh, I think it's a profound impact, not only on lay people, on politicians. I mean politicians are human beings. They look at these videotapes.

They find it emotionally impossible to believe this woman is really unconscious and without any hope of recovery. And, of course, they begin to wonder isn't there something we should be doing to step into the situation?

Sad to say most people simply don't understand enough medicine to understand how this condition is even possible. This kind of condition, permanent vegetative state, the reflexes of waking and sleeping, of the hands opening and closing, of the yawning, all of those are so similar to what we do when we're awake that we tend to project and believe that there is a consciousness there, as there would be for ourselves. It's just irresistible for humans to do this.

GREENFIELD: That is the conclusion that the Florida courts have consistently reached but it is not the conclusion reached by the doctors who were hired by Terri Schiavo's parents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman is not in a coma. This woman is not in a PVS state.

GREENFIELD: And this is what has given that videotape such potency. If there's any doubt at all, the argument goes, you must resolve it on behalf of life. Whatever the medical facts, it is not hard to understand why the average person looking at those images sees them as at least raising doubt.

(on camera): Big, sweeping questions surround this case, the role of the courts and legislatures, the reach of federal power, the proper way to determine when a life is genuinely over.

Thousands of words will be used trying to deal with these questions but in this case those few images may well carry more weight than all those thousands of words.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Much more ahead tonight on the Schiavo case which is above all a story of families.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The Schiavo's, the Schindler's, and the Bush's.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have not discussed the next steps with my brother, who is the governor of Florida.

J. BUSH: I'm doing everything within my power to make sure that Terri is afforded at least the same rights that criminal convicted of the most heinous crimes take for granted.

BROWN: Two powerful brothers, part of the drama unfolding.

Two more court rulings today siding with Michael Schiavo what does the court's consistency say? Why are all the rulings going Mr. Schiavo's way? And what does all this look like to someone who struggles with life every day and savors it?

HARRIET MCBRYDE JOHNSON, AUTHOR, "TOO LATE TO DIE YOUNG": I've had people come up to me and say "I'd rather be dead if I had to live like you." Now, what if that person shows up in an emergency room with a spinal cord injury, they're temporarily unable to speak? Are we going to let their next of kin starve them to death? I don't think that's where we want to go.

BROWN: A fresh voice in a most complicated debate.

From New York and around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The pictures from outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo resides -- now five days without food or water -- as the battle over her life takes place in the courts, and in a moment why the courts have done what they have done consistently in the Schiavo case.

First, a little past a quarter past the hour, time for some of the other stories that made news today. We're joined again tonight by Erica Hill in Atlanta -- Erica, good evening.

(NEWSBREAK)

BROWN: Erica, thank you.

As a rule, political brother acts tend to go towards separate paths. Think Richard and Donald Nixon or Bill and Roger Clinton, if you will. There are, however, notable exceptions -- John and Bobby Kennedy or George and Jeb Bush today in the Schiavo matter.

Here's our Senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Late morning, Waco, Texas, President Bush making it clear if the federal courts don't intervene to save Terri Schiavo he sees no way he can do more.

G. BUSH: And now we'll watch the courts make its decisions. But we looked at all options from the executive branch perspective.

KING: Oh, and by the way...

G. BUSH: I have not discussed next steps with my brother, who is the governor of Florida.

KING: Two-and-a-half hours later, Tallahassee, Florida, Governor Jeb Bush saying he now believes he has the executive authority to at least temporarily restore Schiavo's feeding tube.

J. BUSH: We're exhausting all executive options.

KING: The role of the brothers Bush is a remarkable subplot to the legal and political battle over Schiavo and the broader debates over the right to life and the right to die.

KEITH APPEL, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: The Congress, the president, the legislature, the governor in Florida have all bent over backwards. They've all gone to remarkable lengths, certainly unprecedented lengths in my lifetime and in the lifetimes of most people to try to save the life of this one woman.

KING: For years, this was Jeb Bush's fight in the Florida legislature and in the state courts. President Bush stepped in when it appeared his brother's options at the state level were exhausted, supporting and then rushing back from Texas to sign extraordinary legislation shipping the Schiavo fight to the federal courts. Very different in political style, the president acknowledges he tends to be blunt. His brother is more soft-spoken.

President Bush is a devout Christian. His brother, the governor, a convert to Catholicism, both outspoken in their support for what they call a culture of life, opposition to abortion and cloning, strict limits on stem cell research and now extraordinary executive efforts in the Schiavo case that won praise from social conservatives but run contrary to majority opinion in the United States and, critics say, contrary to years of legal precedent.

KATHRYN TUCKER, LEGAL ANALYST: But it has been an act that is such a gross overreaching of the bounds of federal authority.

KING (on camera): Two brothers, one the chief executive of Florida, the other the chief executive of the United States, their considerable powers perhaps not enough to win a fight they insist is motivated by deep moral beliefs not, as some critics say, by politics.

John King, CNN, Crawford, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The extraordinary legal step that John just referred to would allow the federal court to look at the same data and hear essentially the same arguments that state courts in Florida have heard for years.

And, Governor Bush is essentially correct when he says the most heinous criminals have that right. Death penalty cases after state review are looked at by the federal courts. So, why now have two courts, the District Court in Florida and the appeals court in Atlanta refused to take that look or allow that look?

Attorney B. J. Bernstein joins us from Atlanta tonight, nice to see you. I guess there's no simple legal answer but give me the simplest answer you can. Why not just issue the temporary restraining order, hear the evidence in federal court? We do it in death penalty cases. Why can't -- why not do it here?

B. J. BERNSTEIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because as the court said in its opinion we're a nation of laws and what we do in this case is going to apply to a lot of cases that come down the road and so the court's got to apply the law as it stands now.

And the law says in this type of case that you've got, in order to get an emergency injunction, you have to show a substantial likelihood that you're going to succeed. And the court looked at that and said, you know, it's just not there.

BROWN: The conundrum I think was detailed by the one dissenting judge in the appeals court who said essentially if we don't do this we can never even look at the facts of it because she will have passed away.

BERNSTEIN: He has a point there that, you know, if they don't look at it but at the same time when you look at what the majority says, it's interesting. The majority opinion cites specifically to the conversations that were had in Congress between Congressman Levin and Congressman Frist.

And during that conversation it was asked, when we pass this special law in this case for this one case are we requiring the federal court to absolutely grant a stay? Or are we going to let it be what the law is for everyone in this country, which is that the federal court can turn it down? It's only the word "may."

BROWN: I'm sorry. This essentially centers then on either the word "shall" or the word "may"?

BERNSTEIN: Correct. And in law, although that seems like a small difference, in legal terms it's a huge difference. Is it an absolute -- when Congress made this law was it an absolute that they tell the federal court you must give this -- you know, look at everything and have the stay?

But they didn't choose that and we know from looking at the conversation back and forth during the congressional hearings that Congress was aware that they weren't doing that and that...

BROWN: B. J., I'm sorry, just based on history, which is all we can go on here, is it likely the U.S. Supreme Court will take this case?

BERNSTEIN: It's really not likely, Aaron. You know, it's been to the U.S. Supreme Court twice before and has been refused to be looked at. It will go to Justice Kennedy first because this is the circuit that he's assigned to look at initially. It's very doubtful.

BROWN: Good to have you with us. Thanks for your help.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: Appreciate it.

Coming up on the program tonight for all the dissent surrounding it, the Schiavo case has created at least one piece of common ground. It has us all talking and talking about something important, when we return more voices and more views.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There is in the country right now, and it doesn't happen often, a national conversation going on. Terri Schiavo's tragedy, which is also her husband's and, if you were with us at the beginning, clearly her parents' has led many of us to think again about some of the most basic and important questions there are.

What is life? Who decides when it can or should end? How do we know? This conversation is going on at dinner tables. It's going on in bed at night. It goes on in the quiet of our hearts. And like the issues it raises, Terri Schiavo and bless her for it, has made this conversation unavoidable.

Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The drama of what may be the final days for Terri Schiavo is playing out all across the land among millions who have never met her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri certainly is in need of being rescued and we continue to pray and work for that.

FOREMAN: Religious communities have galvanized for prayer and protest.

DAN BODIN, CATHOLIC BROTHER: Obviously the hope is that the feeding tube will be reinstated and I think again a respect for life is the main issue.

FOREMAN: But the debate is reaching a remarkably wide audience. At George Washington University in D.C. we sat down with a group of law, ethics and media students. All of them are following this case.

How many of you agree with this notion that this is a private issue, the government shouldn't be involved?

ANDREW SKOLNICK, LAW STUDENT: The thing it really comes down to there are certain religious groups that are trying to enforce their religious beliefs on everyone.

SOGAND ZAMANI, LAW STUDENT: It has to stop somewhere. There's an endless moral debate about it.

FOREMAN: Plenty were concerned about Congress effectively overriding state law on this case but Rachel Zavala (ph) says ignoring pleas for any life is unthinkable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I personally think it's atrocious and she should have the right to live.

FOREMAN: No matter how difficult Terri Schiavo's life may seem.

PAUL GOODELL, PHILOSOPHY STUDENT: Objectively verifiable signs of life, a soul, whatever we -- we call human life, are gone.

RACHEL ZAVALA, JOURNALISM STUDENT: She still has a soul. You may not see much reaction out of her. You see her head move back and forth. But she still has her soul.

GOODELL: I'm saying what we can verify.

FOREMAN (on camera): Perhaps the reason Terri Schiavo's case has captured so much public attention is that, for many people, it is not really about her. It's about all of our rights to live and to die and to choose.

(voice-over): So, despite the new claim by a neurologist that Schiavo was misdiagnosed, many doctors still say she will never recover.

DR. RONALD CRANFORD, NEUROLOGIST: There was never any doubt about her diagnosis, not a shred of doubt ever. She's been like this since 1990.

FOREMAN: Other people say she might.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think doctors are always right.

FOREMAN: And still others see a woman trapped in the middle.

JAMES WALKER, COMMUNICATIONS STUDENT: I think this is about a big political fight, but it's affecting her in every way.

FOREMAN: And this debate for many people now really is a matter of life and death.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come tonight, a voice not yet heard in this debate.

And, later, morning papers, because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a shouting match, quiet voices are the first casualty. And, in one sense, this is a shouting match. But, as we said a moment ago, it has also become a larger national discussion, and, in that venue, quiet voices, different voices, might have a better chance.

Harriet McBryde Johnson is a lawyer and the author of "Too Late to Die Young." We spoke with her this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you, as you look at the case, have any reason to believe that Ms. Schiavo has not received appropriate due process?

HARRIET MCBRYDE JOHNSON, AUTHOR, "TOO LATE TO DIE YOUNG": Well, I will tell you, I'm very concerned about the basic idea that a feeding tube is life support. To me, that's a prime example of the disability prejudice that's so rampant in our society.

For those of us who are connected with the real world of real lives with disability, a feeding tube is very often the most convenient, practical way to eat. It's a simple piece of assistive technology. And so, the fact that the Florida courts have said that that somehow puts her in a different category when it comes to whether she should live or die, to me, gives me real concern. And I think that we as a society ought to make them justify that.

BROWN: OK. With due respect, it's not quite fair to say that the only factor in, as far as I know at least, in any court decision -- it's been looked at by lots of courts and lots of judges -- that the only factor here is that she's on a feeding tube and she's kept alive on a feeding tube. There are other medical questions that have also come into play.

JOHNSON: Well, I think the feeding tube is what is used to say that this is withdrawal of life support or an end of life decision, as opposed to out-and-out killing. It's the feeding tube that's used to define her as terminally ill. It's the feeding tube that is called life support. And so, I mean, I think, you know, there are other factors as well.

But the fact that that is one factor, to me, raises an ADA issue to say, well, is a feeding tube life support?

BROWN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Does it put someone in a different category? Or should we throw that out of the analysis altogether and recognize that feeding tubes for people who need them are useful devices?

BROWN: Let me try and ask the question a little bit differently. No state in the country allows a non-terminally ill person to commit suicide. Every state in the country would intervene in that matter.

Ms. Schiavo clearly to me is not terminally ill in the way we think about terminal illness. So, regardless of her wishes -- and let's just accept for this moment that those in fact are her wishes -- regardless of those wishes, should -- is it appropriate for a non- terminal person to end their life or to have assistance in ending their life?

JOHNSON: Well, I think the key distinction is that we have an incapacitated person and someone else making the decision.

I would say that there are a few decisions that each of us can only make for ourselves. And one of those is to give up our lives. And here we have a substitute decision-maker claiming to have the right to end another person's life, again, based on disability, which is a stigmatized minority group. But one person says, I can end my wife's life because of her disability.

And I think, for that decision to be valid, there ought to be real solemn documents, like a properly executed health care proxy, that says, absolutely, after advice, this is what I want, because the truth is that many, many people say casually throughout their lives, I'd rather be dead than disabled. I've had people come up to me and say, I would rather be dead if I had to live like you.

But the reality is that most people adapt. Most people go on to lead good lives that they could never have imagined. And this case is a particularly tough one. But the law applies to all people. And I think it's just a dangerous idea to say that we're going to let a substitute decision-maker authorize the killing of another person based on fairly casual statements they made without any particular knowledge of what they were talking about.

BROWN: It's really nice to meet you. I appreciate your time. Thanks.

JOHNSON: OK.

BROWN: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Harriet McBryde Johnson, we talked to her this afternoon, among the many voices we've listened to and will continue to listen to in this story.

When we come back, the latest headlines of the day from Atlanta.

As we head to break, the vigil outside the hospice in Florida tonight. Terri Schiavo, five days now without food or water. The U.S. Supreme Court the next legal stop in the federal system for her, and not much optimism that the court will intervene.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Part of our anniversary series "Then and Now," we look back tonight at the career of the designer Armani and where it all is today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is known as the king of Italian fashion. Giorgio Armani became a household name in the 1980s, when Richard Gere in American Gigolo famously showed off his collection of shirts, jackets and ties.

In 1982, he was the first fashion designer to appear on the cover of Time magazine since Christian Dior in the 1950s. Armani revolutionized the wardrobe of men and women alike, introducing a style of relaxed elegance and pale colors.

In the 1990s, he became the designer of choice for Hollywood stars, and was among the first to approach celebrities to wear his creations.

GIORGIO ARMANI, DESIGNER (through translator): I'm perceived as one who makes only serious clothes, for the working woman, the woman who has no strange ideas when, in fact, I'd like to think I have a clientele who is a little crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Armani expanded quickly, licensing eyewear, cosmetics and a fragrance, turning his business into a multibillion- dollar fashion powerhouse.

In 1998, he opened his first store in China. And last year, he inaugurated his winter collection in Shanghai. Fashion, he says, has no boundaries. At 70, Armani is celebrating 30 years running his own fashion line.

ARMANI (thought translator): It seems like yesterday. In fact, it's been 30 years of commitment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: CNN celebrates 25 years of broadcasting this year. We continue to look back at yesterday's newsmakers and where they are today.

Quarter to the hour: time for other headlines of the day, Erica Hill again in Atlanta -- Erica.

HILL: Good evening to you, Aaron.

In Texas City, Texas, the search continues now for the bodies or survivors after a massive explosion at an oil refinery there. At least 14 employees were killed. More than 100 were hurt. The cause of the blast is under investigation. But nearby residents said the force could be felt as far as five miles.

A federal jury in Texas has convicted a truck driver of transporting illegal immigrants in the nation's deadliest smuggling attempt. The judge declared a mistrial on the most serious charges after jurors were deadlocked, meaning no death penalty there; 19 people died after being crammed inside the hot tractor trailer in 2003.

President Bush and his counterparts to the north and south have agreed to cooperate more on security and economic issues. The announcement came during a meeting in Texas Wednesday. There's been some tension between the three leaders since Mexico and Canada objected to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

And that is the latest from Headline News at this hour -- Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Erica, thank you. A nice break.

Now this is where we turn to news that is altogether different than where we've been so far tonight, to the future, as it were, where graffiti art that you might expect to see on an underpass or a subway car is morphing into something new and old at the same time, young artist "On the Rise."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOZE GREEN, GRAFFITI ARTIST: My name is Doze Green. Traditionally, I would be what you would call a graffiti artist.

I first got introduced to street art or graffiti art around the age of 11. There was a graffiti contest at my junior high school. I joined the contest. I didn't win, but it just sparked something in me from that point on.

It was a way of expressing myself. These are works I'm working on currently for a show in Milan. I still paint on walls. But, for the most part, I'm painting in my studio.

I never really thought of my work going legal or never in my wildest dreams did I think that painting subway trains would lead up to galleries and museum shows. I just recently had an exhibit in Los Angeles at a Studio One Gallery. My works have exhibited in Europe, in Paris, in England, in Manchester, Australia, Japan, all over the world actually right now.

I'm thinking this bronze is going to be cool, though. I'm going to try it, all right? I would describe my art as someone who is pushing the line that defines graff art and fine art. I tend to, like, paint a lot of classical things that have been rehashed throughout the ages. And I'm just approaching them with a graffiti influence and a more 21st century outlook.

Altoids commissioned us to paint this wall last summer. I worked with a few companies here and there. This is our section of the wall we did. It helps them. It helps us. It creates publicity for their image, youth-oriented. It's now. It's fresh.

Royal Elastics is a shoe company, and they wanted us to go on this tour to promote their new line of footwear. What they wanted me to do was perform live painting. I have actually been doing live painting for about 10 years now. I've done it all over the world. And wherever I go, people, they always come up to me and they just say, it's amazing to see the energy that is being transferred between you and the deejay and the audience. I kind of feed off that. I think I've retained that rawness and the truthfulness and spark that comes from graffiti artists. And that will always be there. That's not going to leave.

What I'm doing is a new vocabulary, new ways of looking at the same thing, just with a twist. Whether it's accepted by the elite or the guy in the street, what's important to me is that people in general feel my work.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check the morning papers from around the country and around the world.

The "International Herald Tribune," published in Paris and read around the world. The Terri Schiavo story really has become an international story. "Two More Courts Bar Reinserting Feeding Tube" is the headline story in the "International Herald Tribune."

"The Christian Science Monitor." Around the dinner table, "Talk of End of Life Care. The Schiavo Case Provides Deeply Personal Questions About Living Wills and Last Wishes." Our last guest tonight when she said, a lot of people casually say, I don't want to live that way, I think we'll all think about that for a while. I'll think about that for a while.

"The Washington Times." "Schiavo's Parents Turn to Supreme Court. Florida Senate Rejects Feeding Tube Legislation." Also, lost in the day somewhat, the president met with Vicente Fox, president of Mexico. "Mexico Accused of Abusing Its Illegals. U.S. Report Cites Rights Violations." "The Washington Times" likes stories about illegal immigration and tends to front-page them.

"Philadelphia Inquirer." "Schiavo Legal Battle Waning. Court Challenge. On 10-2 Vote, U.S. Appellate Judges Decline to Hear Case."

I think that's such a really interesting part of it, that the law has to stand for everyone. It can't stand for just one case. I know how frustrated Mr. Schindler sounded at the beginning of the program -- and not frustrated, angry, didn't he?

"The Times Herald Record," Upstate New York. "No to Schiavo's Parents" the lead. Down here, can you get the shot, Ed? "You Call This Spring?" It was snowing in New York. That's a more gentle way than I would put it.

We'll come back and wrap up the day in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We end the night where we began, the Schiavo case and the next step. Joe Johns is at the U.S. Supreme Court tonight -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the parents of Terri Schiavo have now filed their application for emergency action before the United States Supreme Court.

This is it. It is a lengthy document. We haven't had time to read it all. But the first two sentences of the conclusion say: "The implications of the judicial death order, which was the outcome of this litigation, are ominous for all persons with disabilities" -- back to you. It has been filed, Aaron.

BROWN: And we'll see tomorrow. We'll know more tomorrow about what the court will do. Joe, it will be one of the major stories of the day and probably for several more days to come.

Good to have you with us tonight. We'll see you tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us.

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