Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Battle Over Terri Schiavo

Aired March 25, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. Everyone, at the end of a day heavy on symbolism, sound and fury, we begin tonight with the concrete. Terri Schiavo has now been without food and water for a week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S FATHER: I told her that we're still fighting for her and she shouldn't give up because we're not. But I think the people who are anxious to see her die are getting their wish. It's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The Schindlers' fight today included a trip back to the 11th circuit court of appeals. The Federal court in Atlanta which has ruled against them, tonight, the second time this week. Again, this afternoon, an extraordinary filing before Florida district court Judge Greer, who has handled much of the state part of this case claiming that Ms. Schiavo tried to utter the words "I want to live" as her feeding tube was removed. A ruling expected there sometimes before noon tomorrow. Mr. Schiavo's lawyer said the claim was bordering on abuse of the legal system.

And as the day unfolded, more protests. Some of them children were arrested. Eight people detained by police after trying to bring Ms. Schiavo water at the hospice where she's being cared for, including a pair of 13-year-old girls and a 10-year-old boy. But there's also an air of resignation setting in according to many observers there. And late tonight, the Schindlers went again before the crowd and the cameras outside. Mr. Schindler taking a shot at the judiciary as he has and Mrs. Schindler pleading with Governor Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY SCHINDLER: Governor Bush, you have the power to save my daughter. It's been seven days. Please, please, do something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: At her side was Randall Terry. Mr. Terry has been a prominent voice in the right-to-life movement for a long time, been prosecuted for some of his actions and is acting as a spokesman now for the Schindler family and he joins us tonight outside the hospice. Mr. Terry, it's good to see you. Can you explain to us what exactly it is that either you or the legal team or the Schindler family believes the governor of the state, who has been enormously sympathetic to you all, can possibly do on his own?

RANDALL TERRY, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: All right. Let's just follow the logic. Our government is set up to have three separate, but equal, branches of government. That's number one. Number two, they all swear an oath to uphold the constitution. If we're in a place in our country where the word of the judge is the equivalent of the word of law, and that's what the law means, the word of a judge, then any injustice committed against innocent people in Soviet Union or communist China or Nazi Germany, we can't condemn it because it was done under the rule of law.

So we're saying that the governor has the constitutional authority to uphold the constitutional right of her to have the right to life and she's a disabled person which our constitution in the state of Florida guarantees and that he needs to use his executive authority, through DCF, the Department of Children and Families, to uphold the statutes of the state and take her into custody. This judge has suspended the statutes of the state that apply to Terri through DCF. Our question is, why is Governor Bush caving in to a probate judge?

BROWN: All right. Let's just walk through as much of this as we can. Neither of us is a lawyer here. This court -- this case, this sad, sad case, has been litigated literally for years. It has been looked at -- there's probably been more due process in this case than any in the state of Florida's history. You have a governor who's enormously sympathetic, who has pushed bills through the legislature, who has been on your side. But he's come to a point where he says the law does not allow me to do it. Why are you guys beating him up over this?

TERRY: Because we don't believe that the law says that. The purpose of the law and the purpose of power, is justice. And if you are not prepared to use the law and power for justice, then that, by definition, is tyranny. Remember, in our declaration of independence, one of the things that the founders cited was judicial acts of tyranny and that that was, by definition, not law, that it was a usurpation of power, that it was despotism.

And so what we're saying again and again, and I feel like people just aren't getting it, the law is not equal to the word of a judge. And furthermore, you did point something out that I want to bring clarity to. The original record of this case is what everyone has to deal with. And, frankly, the original record was set by inexperienced attorneys 15 years ago, who left a record that is tantamount to legal malpractice. There were so many screw-ups in the original case that the family has been stuck with that.

That's why the Congress passed a law for a de novo hearing, which means totally new. So you've got 30 affidavits from neurologists saying she's not in PVS, but that's not in the original record. People coming forward saying that Michael Schiavo is a villain but none of that's in the record.

BROWN: Mr. Terry, I want to try and get --

TERRY: So they can't look at it.

BROWN: Let me try and get one more question in before we're done here. Are you prepared to say at this point that the legal route is essentially over?

TERRY: Well, it still could go to the Supreme Court. But we believe that the road to save Terri Schiavo goes through Tallahassee. In an hour of crisis, throughout history, what sets men apart as heroes is that they took action. And this moment, this pivotal moment, is going to be with Jeb Bush for the rest of his life. And it's Good Friday right now. Where Christ is remembered as hanging on the cross saying "I thirst." We're saying, Governor Bush, please, intervene, Terri thirsts. Intervene and save her life.

BROWN: Mr. Terry, it's good to see you. We appreciate your time. There's a lot of pulling at you these days.

TERRY: Aaron, thank you for having me.

BROWN: Thank you sir.

TERRY: Hope it's under better circumstances next time.

BROWN: I do, too. Thank you sir very much, Randall Terry, down in Florida tonight. You get some sense now, if you didn't have it before of the pressure that's been building on Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida. He has, just to review this, he has gone to the legislature on more than one occasion, two, one case successfully, another case not successfully, to try and get laws passed. He has said, this is what I can do, and this pressure continues on him in Tallahassee tonight. Here's CNN's Ed Henry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The scene at the governor's mansion on Good Friday, the day the Bible says Jesus Christ was crucified. Protesters led by the Reverend Patrick Mahoney explicitly using that symbolism to compare Jeb Bush to Pontius Pilate and Terri Schiavo to Jesus Christ.

REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: God, for give us as a nation. Forgive us as a people. Can we truly say that we are the land of the free and the home of the brave when, on Good Friday, a woman is being starved to death?

HENRY: This drama is culminating during holy week, intensifying an already highly highly-charged, religious and moral debate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heavenly Father, I come before you now and I ask you, in the mighty name of Jesus, that you would rescue Governor Bush from himself. That you would open his heart, Lord, to see what lies he's telling himself that gives him pause and makes him hesitate when he can save a woman's life.

HENRY: But the fervor is just as passionate on the other side with some prominent Christians saying the moral solution is to let Michael Schiavo's wife die with dignity.

FATHER JOHN PARIS, JESUIT PRIEST AND BIOETHICIST: We do not hold that one is morally obliged to do everything possible to sustain every life as long as possible and in fact we believe that that sort of an approach is wrong.

HENRY: Still, the fact that time is running out for Terri Schiavo on Easter weekend is ratcheting up the pressure on Governor Bush, who unlike his brother, is Catholic.

BRO. PAUL O'DONNELL, FRANCISCAN BROTHERS OF PEACE: On this Good Friday day, as one Catholic father to another, he's begging the governor to save his daughter, Bob Schindler Mary Schindler, are pleading with Governor Bush.

HENRY: Conservative activists want the governor to take custody of Schiavo by force, if necessary, citing a law that allows the state to move in if a patient is being abused. But Bush advisers say the governor believes his powers do not trump the court's and despite the pressure, some Republicans think that by not bending to the demands, the governor shows he is standing on principle and could get a political boost.

The governor had planned to participate in the stations of the cross during a Good Friday service. But he canceled after hearing that Mahoney and other protesters would be there, according to a priest at this cathedral. Mahoney was struck by the fifth station prayer that the governor would have read.

MAHONEY: My prayer for Governor Bush is simply what he would have read today -- help me to say yes and be willing to give heroic assistance to all who are in need. Governor Bush, please say yes to Terri and give her heroic assistance today, on Good Friday.

HENRY: Mahoney, who's been fasting for eight days in solidarity with Schiavo, compares her to Christ.

MAHONEY: Christ, innocent, enduring painful agony, suffering, being denied food and water. Terri Schiavo, innocent, powerless, going through this horrific death and Christ gave his life, went through this pain and suffering, so that we might live, we might have salvation and live. We already have seen the benefits of Terri's pain and suffering, creating this national conversation, getting Congress to vote, moving the president, discussing living wills, end of life.

HENRY: An aide says all of this is weighing heavily on the governor because of his concern for Schiavo and her parents, not because of the protests and pressures on him. Ed Henry, CNN, Tallahassee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Not everyone shares the governor's even temperament on all of this today. The FBI arrested a man in North Carolina. He's accused of offering on the Internet a quarter of a million dollars for the murder of Michael Schiavo and $50,000 to kill Judge Greer. Judge Greer, who according to the "Miami Herald," a strong believer in the right-to-life cause. He's a Republican, a southern Baptist who left his local church or perhaps was asked to leave his local church, there's some dispute there, because of all the attention the case has brought. In any case, Judge Greer appears to be the second-most vilified person, next to Michael Schiavo, by those trying to keep Ms. Schiavo alive. Security in and around the hospice as well has become a real concern.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The faithful still crowd outside the doors which is also where the cameras are. But for those who actually do get inside this hospice, to see Terri Schiavo, there is a careful choreographed procedure.

O'DONNELL: It's either red light or green light. And the family can have visitation rights suspended at anytime, whether it's for five hours or 10 hours or as yesterday, 12 hours.

BROWN: Brother Paul O'Donnell is among the small group of Schindler family advisers, who along with the family share a command center of sorts behind the doors of this thrift store, only a few feet from the media. He is among the few who have actually been inside the hospice.

O'DONNELL: You have to go through four security checkpoints, sign in at each checkpoint, show your driver's license, be body searched so that you don't have any cell phones or any cameras to take pictures of Terri. Then you have to go into Terri's room and in Terri's room there's an armed police officer at her bedside.

BROWN: Michael Schiavo, administrators say, has a residence room available to him inside the building, not uncommon for relatives whose loved ones are in hospice care. And hospice administrators say it is also common for the spouse to control the visitors list, but right now, under these pressures even small details can become flashpoints.

O'DONNELL: Terri's room is right next to the nurse's station and right next to the nurse's station is a visitor's waiting room. And the Schindler family is told they cannot be in that waiting room or they cannot be on the property of hospice at any time unless they're in Terri's room.

BROWN: By all accounts, the time available to actually see Terri Schiavo alive is rapidly shrinking.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The brother of Terri Schiavo will join us in a few moments. Much more ahead in the hour as well, including two families facing the same painful decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt that a man was keeping (UNINTELLIGIBLE) alive and God wanted her. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When two people marry, the Bible says, you leave your family and cling to your husband or wife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A father and a wife, both determined to let a loved one die, though others fought hard to stop them. Was the government out of line?

How we die. Is emotion blurring the facts in the Terri Schiavo case?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the biggest misconception right now is that removal of artificial hydration and nutrition is the same thing as starvation and it's really not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What happens when a feeding tube is removed? What does the dying patient feel?

And beyond the heartbreak and high emotions, the ethics of it all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The issue, you know, isn't whether we allow life to go on. The issue is, can people control their medical care?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A conversation with renowned medical ethicist, Dr. Arthur Kaplan. From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The scene outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, where Terri Schiavo lives, again still, tonight. In a moment, her brother, Bobby Schindler joins us. He'll join us from there. He's been seeing his sister. First, as we -- it's a little bit past a quarter past the hour. A number of other stories made news tonight. Erica Hill joins us again from Atlanta. Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening Aaron. We start off with what is sort of raising some questions. President Bush called India's leader today to explain his decision to supply about two dozen F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan. The prime minister expressed great disappointment at hearing the news and said the sale of sophisticated warplanes to its long-time nuclear rival would endanger security in the region. The aircraft are capable of delivering nuclear weapons. A U.S. official says the decision was linked to Pakistan's cooperation in the war against terrorism.

For the first time in 26 years, Pope John Paul II did not take part in the Good Friday procession at Rome's coliseum today. Instead, he appeared on video, sitting in his chapel at the Vatican. The pope's ill health has forced him to skip a series of holy week events. He's been hospitalized twice recently for breathing problems including surgery last month to insert a breathing tube into his throat.

And prosecutors presented some fingerprint evidence in the Michael Jackson trial today. They showed jurors a sexually explicit magazine, asserted fingerprints from both Jackson and his accuser were found on it. They also say they found the accuser's fingerprints on another magazine and an adult video calendar. The defense has argued the boy's fingerprints got on the magazine when he handled it during grand jury hearing and not when he was with the pop star. That's the latest from "headline news." Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Erica, thank you. We heard at the top of the program, from Terri Schiavo's father. Her husband and her brother in law, who you'll recall hold the opposing view, they have chosen to stay out of the public eye tonight, the Schiavo side of this tragedy. Ms. Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, joins us now from Florida. It's good to see you. This has been another difficult day in the courts. Do the -- have the lawyers pretty much said we are out of legal cases to bring?

BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S BROTHER: I don't know. I haven't spoken to my lawyers or our lawyers since the ruling just came in. I don't know if we have any options left or not.

BROWN: Let me ask it differently, just personally, you've gone through this string of bad rulings all week, difficult rulings all week. Have you lost confidence that you'll find a relief that your family hopes for in the courts?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, really, the bad court rulings, specifically Judge Greer, has been a ruling in this matter for five years. This past two weeks is just really what our family's experienced for a long time. No, I had no confidence in the courts. It looks like, in order to save my sister's life, we're going to have to somehow circumvent the courts and find another way.

BROWN: Have you and has the family been able to see her pretty much when you want to see her for as long as you want to see her?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, we can visit. There are blocks of time during the day that for whatever reason, Michael Schiavo does not allow us to go visit Terri. They can last, at his discretion they have lasted several hours this past week. But other than that, our family can go and visit Terri, you know when we please.

BROWN: Has there been -- Bobby, has there been any attempt to get your side of the family and the Schiavos and Michael together to see if there are, even after all of these years and all this bad feeling if somehow this couldn't be resolved otherwise?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, my father sent a letter to Michael back in 1993 asking him just that, you know? Terri's our family, we just want her back and take care of her and bring her home, and Michael refused. And we made this plea over and over again. You know, Michael -- it frustrates me when I hear this is a family dispute. This is not a family dispute. Terri's family wants to bring her home and take care of her. Michael has his own family. He has been cohabitating with another woman now for 10 years. Has two children with this woman. And we simply say, Michael, take care of your family, and let us take care of Terri.

BROWN: So, not really since 1993, 12 years ago, has there been an attempt to try and mediate this, is that right?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, there was a mediation attempt just a few years ago and that was unsuccessful, but it was with lawyers and judges involved. And I said over and over again, I've made my intentions clear through the media and other means that I would sit down with Michael Schiavo at any time and try to work this out, just him and I. But that never, you know, took place. And unfortunately, we are here today, you know, going through this horrible ordeal.

BROWN: Everybody I think agrees with that, it has been a horrible ordeal. Bobby, nice to talk to you tonight. Thank you, Bobby Schindler in Florida.

As much of a public spectacle as the Schiavo case has become, the woman at the center of it is shielded from public view, which clouds the story some. It's now been a week since Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected. Her husband and brother-in-law have said she appears peaceful. Her parents and siblings describe a much different scene.

What Terri Schiavo may be feeling, whether she is in pain or not, how close to death she may be, those are questions many of us have. Dr. Nathan Goldstein of the Mount Sinai Hospital in New York specializes in geriatrics and the end of life care. And we talked with him earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. NATHAN GOLDSTEIN, MT. SINAI: After a week of stopping artificial hydration and nutrition, patients -- the kidneys at this point would begin to function less and less. The toxin in the blood would begin to build up, and the levels of certain things in the blood, such as potassium, would probably begin to increase.

The only symptom that patients at this point might be experiencing or the family might be noticing, again, because she's not actually experiencing it -- is things such as a dry mouth or dry lips. And that's treated very easily with, for example, swabs or ice chips. Patients in persistent vegetative states, whom we stop artificial hydration and nutrition on, aren't dying because we stopped it. They die because they were never able to eat and drink in the first place. Remember, just because we're stopping artificial hydration and nutrition doesn't mean that we're stopping care or that we are abandoning her.

So with good medical interventions and any symptoms that might come up in other patients, we can control any discomfort or any symptoms that patients might have.

The role of hospice is not just to abandon patients when they come to the end of life. It's just the opposite. In fact, the most difficult care, the most intensive care for patients in hospice happens near the end of life. And as much as nobody wants to die, I think we all have to realize that death is a very natural process. And the body has certain mechanisms that over time begin to break down, and so that there is a natural process to death, just as there is a natural process to birth. And the things in this case, this is one of the most peaceful ways to die, because the body takes over and makes sure that we're not awake and aware and that we don't suffer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That word is the what of this story. In a moment, the whys and the whethers and everything else that makes this story such a difficult and a painful one. Our Friday conversation tonight with professor Arthur Caplan, who has made a career out of asking and helping us understand these sorts of questions. We take a break first on a Friday night. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On a difficult story such as this, our best role is to present as many sides of the issue as we can. This week, we've had theologians and advocate for the disabled, constitutional scholar. And tonight a medical ethicist, Dr. Arthur Caplan, is one of the country's leading ethicists, chairman of the Department of Medical Ethics at the University of Pennsylvania. We talked with him yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: From the ethicist's point of view, is this an easy case?

DR. ARTHUR CAPLAN, ETHICIST: You know, I'm going to surprise you, Aaron, and say it is an easy case. Not that it's easy to watch the emotions and the fighting of the family, but ever since Karen Ann Quinlan in 1976, we've had a consensus about how to manage these cases.

There's no doubt that people have the right to say no to medical treatments. Jehovah's Witnesses do, Christian Scientists do, people dying of cancer do. Sometimes people with Lou Gehrig's disease say that's it. There is no doubt that you turn to the next of kin when they can't speak, and the first in line there is the husband or the wife. There's no doubt that feeding tubes are medical treatments. None.

I am at a school where one of my colleagues spent 40 years trying to develop the fluids that go into feeding tubes. And it's clear that that was a difficult thing to do, a difficult thing to figure out. No doubt, it's a technology. And there's no doubt that if you have a dispute, like we've seen with this family, vicious as it may be, as emotional as it may be, you take it to the ethics committee locally. And if that doesn't work, you go to local courts. So that system has worked. It's produced a lot of consensus over the past 30 years.

BROWN: Karen Ann Quinlan wasn't about a feeding tube. It was about life support. Is there a difference?

CAPLAN: Well, remember, Karen Ann Quinlan was the landmark case that said even if you're unconscious and can't communicate, others can stop life support for you.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: Nancy Cruzan in 1990, the case that made it to the U.S. Supreme Court, was about a feeding tube. The U.S. Supreme Court looked at this case and said, look, it doesn't matter whether a feeding tube is easy to use or difficult to use. What matters is, is that doctors and nurses administer it. That makes it medicine.

BROWN: OK.

CAPLAN: And if it's medicine, you can say no to it.

BROWN: What do you think the -- and this -- this tragedy, it's a family tragedy. It's a personal tragedy. And there's almost no other way to look at it. It's almost shameful to describe it as a story -- is full of both facts and I think to some extent mythology at this point.

As you've looked at it and listened to it play out, particularly this week, what are the great misconceptions here?

CAPLAN: One misconception is, is that somehow or other we can help somebody recover or make some progress from a permanent vegetative state. There isn't anybody who knows how to do that. There's even a little bit of a mythology here that somehow or another it's wrong to take away that feeding tube because Terri's going to suffer and miserably die.

You hear starvation. You hear about the symptoms. Terri's in a hospice. And one thing I'm very proud of, and resent almost, that's been going on in describing her dying, is that hospices give good palliative care to people.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: They don't put them in the corner and leave them to die. They use narcotics if they have to. They know how to manage a dying person. Anybody who has had a relive at a hospice knows that they're heroes. And that bothers me as well.

BROWN: There's some basic things here. But I think here's where some people get kind of messed up in this. Sometimes, I have in this week. Is she in pain?

CAPLAN: I don't believe she can be in the pain that we all know. She can't be conscious. She can't suffer in any self-aware sense. She has reflexes.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK. In that sense, Doctor, if she can't -- if she is not in any sense present, if she has no awareness, if she's not suffering, then why not allow her to live?

CAPLAN: Well, the issue, you know, isn't whether we allow life to go on. The issue is, can people control their medical care?

I mean, again, when that Christian science spouse says, my husband, who is unconscious, doesn't believe in medicine, he wants prayer, he certainly could live if we gave him blood or antibiotics or insulin, pretty simple things, but we don't because we respect somebody's right to say, I don't want your medical care.

And, similarly, with Terri, it isn't a question of killing her or saying, gosh, she's got a terrible life or her quality of life is not worthy of support. It is that she told her husband, and it was confirmed many times in court that she said this, if I'm in that state, don't keep me that way. And that's what we're acting on. No one's trying to end the lives of the disabled around the country. Nobody is saying, if you're in a persistent vegetative state, take your feeding tube out.

It's in this case where she said to her husband, don't leave me this way, that you see the removal of the feeding tube.

BROWN: Let me pause here. That's where I want to pick this up after the break.

We're talking with Dr. Arthur Caplan. We'll continue in just a second.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're talking with Dr. Arthur Caplan.

Dr. Caplan, when we went to break, we were talking about the fact that this was her expressed wish and the importance of that. Here's where this leads me. Somebody said to me the other day that, casually, we say this a lot. If I'm in that situation, I don't want to live. I wouldn't want to live in a condition like that. But one of the things that the assisted suicide law in Oregon has taught us, I think, is that, in fact, when people who are terminal, sometimes in great pain, in fact, and with the wherewithal to end their lives, they have the pills in their hand, come to not the theoretical, but to the reality, they say, this life, as difficult as it may be, is better than what I fear follows.

CAPLAN: I think you're right, Aaron. It's amazing to me that people literally with the pills in their hand, suffering from terminal illness, still say, I prefer to live. But when you ask people a slightly different question, were your brain to be severely damaged, were you to be to the point where you can't interact, can't feel, can't have a meaningful existence, the overwhelming majority of people at that point say, please don't continue trying to keep me alive. Please don't do this to me.

BROWN: Is there anything about this case you wish you knew that you do not know?

CAPLAN: Well, one of the things that obviously I really wish I knew is whether Terri somehow or another would have said, of course I picked my husband.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: I loved him. I knew him for five years of marriage. There was never any question raised about that relationship. You wish you could hear a louder voice on her part.

And, ideally, I wish she would have filled out a living will and advanced directives. Now, 21-year-olds are not likely to be doing that.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: But I wish -- I wish that it happened.

BROWN: They may be more likely to do it after this week, to be honest.

CAPLAN: Let's hope.

BROWN: Which leads, I think, to a couple of areas.

The country, I think, from where I've watched this and to some degree I suppose participated in, has been involved in an extraordinary national conversation. Some of it, the loudest part, plays out on TV, but I suspect that it more quietly plays out at dinner tables and bedrooms at night and all sorts of places. On balance, has this been a good week for the country on this issue?

CAPLAN: I think it has leaned toward being a good week. And I'll tell you why. I think it has stimulated conversation. I think people -- I'm not sure how many people are going to run out and fill out their living wills. Some will.

But people have talked with one another, expressed their views, expressed their values, and that is a good thing. And that's an important thing. I think that people have come to understand and think about things like feeding tubes, understand the choices that have to be made when you go into the hospital and are facing either severe, disabling injury or terminal illness. And that's a good thing.

I even think there's something good about the fact that the public has been faced with a question, where's the best place to settle these issues?

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: Do you want them in Washington? Do you want them locally? Do you want families making decisions? Do you want federal judges? Do you want the president? Do you want the governor?

My sense is that, when you really push that to the wall, you get back the answer, keep it local, keep it as private as you can.

BROWN: In that, just tell me, give me a sense of how -- I mean, you're one of these people that's out there on these sorts of things. People see you. They've come to know you over a period of time. I assume they get your e-mail address in the same way they get mine and they've communicated with you. How has that gone?

CAPLAN: Boy, they've communicated with me.

(LAUGHTER)

CAPLAN: That's true. I've never seen so many e-mails and messages, thousands.

Initially, I think, people, before this got to Congress, as people heard about the case, they tended to say, keep her alive. This is something that bothered people. Maybe they weren't sure about the husband's ability to represent her views. And some thought, this is just a kind of anti-disability campaign.

When Congress got involved, the feedback to me began to shift and shift drastically. People began to say, I don't know if I want Tom DeLay, who hasn't heard anything about the facts of this case, sort of saying, the judge is wicked and it's bettor resolve this here than to let local court authorities get into it. And they began to also think harder and say, well, wait a minute, is this really about somebody's wishes, somebody's directives?

Is it about controlling our medical care? So I've seen a shift, if you will, more toward worrying about, are we foisting unwanted care on someone and then absolutely a reaction saying, I don't think the people in Washington are in the best position to mediate these cases.

BROWN: Dr. Caplan, it's always good to see you, because we always see you on issues that we all, to one degree or another, I think struggle with and try to come to terms with. It's good to have you with us tonight.

CAPLAN: Appreciate it.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Dr. Arthur Caplan, the University of Pennsylvania.

Still to come, two families who also faced life-and-death decisions, plus headlines from Atlanta and tomorrow's headlines from the rooster. Wait. I do that, don't I?

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: For some families the Schiavo case hits uncomfortably close to home. For those who have agonized over whether to end a loved one's life, and there are many people, the drama unfolding in Florida is a reminder of their own battles fought, often in court.

Here's CNN's Alina Cho.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Whenever Terri Schiavo's face appears on television, Mary Martin is riveted to the screen and very angry.

MARY MARTIN, WIDOW OF VICTIM: Enough is enough. Not everyone wants to just exist.

CHO: One hundred fifty miles away, in another quiet Michigan town, Fran Rosebush is also angry.

FRANCIS ROSEBUSH, FATHER OF VICTIM: The husband shouldn't go against the mother and father, because, yes, that's their daughter. And you know what? They had her long before he did.

CHO: The Schiavo case brings back agonizing memories for both. Both have had loved ones on life support. Both believe the government should not be deciding whether someone should live or die.

MARTIN: I believe that, if Terri Schiavo lived in Michigan or, you know, California, any place other than Florida, where Jeb Bush, brother to the president, was living, it would not be at the magnitude that it is today.

ROSEBUSH: I'm a very strong Bush supporter. I listen to Rush Limbaugh.

CHO (on camera): But?

ROSEBUSH: But I don't agree with him on this.

CHO (voice-over): Eighteen years ago, Fran Rosebush watched helplessly as his daughter Joelle, then 10 years old, was hit by a car. The accident left her in a persistent vegetative state. After more than a year of medical treatment, Rosebush decided to take his daughter off life support.

ROSEBUSH: I felt that man was keeping Joelle alive and God wanted her.

CHO: Three of his daughter's nurses fought him on it, but Rosebush won in court. Mary Martin did not.

CHO (on camera): Do you think Mike was able to die with dignity?

MARTIN: Oh, his dignity was stripped of him, but he was finally able to go and be with his God.

CHO: Four days after Joelle Rosebush's accident, Martin, her husband, Mike, and their three children were in their car, Mike at the wheel, when a train hit them.

MARTIN: I remember saying, is everyone OK? And the only one that responded was my eldest daughter, Mindy (ph), saying, mom, I'm fine. Matt's crying and I don't know about dad.

CHO: The Martins' youngest daughter, 7-year-old Melanie, died instantly. Her father was severely brain-damaged. Mary Martin fought to have his feeding tube removed, but lost a lengthy court battle to his family; 15 years later, Michael Martin died of pneumonia.

Martin believes she should have had the right to decide what happened to her husband and Michael Schiavo should decide what happens to his wife.

MARTIN: When two people marry, the Bible says, you leave your family and cling to your husband or wife.

CHO: She says her husband never wanted to be kept alive by machines. Look no further than Michael Martin's headstone, three dates, the day he was born, the day Mary says he died, and she says the day his soul was sent to heaven.

MARTIN: Ultimately...

CHO (on camera): You feel as though you let him down?

MARTIN: I feel to this day that I let him down.

CHO (voice-over): Both of them agree that Terri Schiavo's parents are letting their daughter down by turning the case into a national and political spectacle.

Alina Cho, CNN, Detroit, Michigan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: On a day and a week where one story has dominated so much of our time, other things have made news as well.

And, for that, again, we go to Erica Hill in Atlanta -- Erica.

HILL: Hello again, Aaron.

U.S. forces in Iraq have apparently thwarted a mass escape from a prison cape. A 600-foot-long escape tunnel was discovered at Camp Bucca. Camp Bucca houses more than 5,000 detainees. The tunnel was about 10 feet underground. The prisoners were reportedly dumping the sand and dirt from their digging into the toilets. And that jamming up the sewage system. A head count revealed, no one got away, even though the tunnel appeared to be ready.

Officials think they may have been waiting for poor weather to help avoid capture.

A friend of Jeff Weise is some offering possible insight into the teenager's mind-set. Shortly before he went on a shooting rampage at his school in Minnesota, Sky Grant says, earlier this month, he watched a movie with Weise called "Elephant," which is about a school shooting. Grant says Weise would skip ahead to the parts that showed students planning and carrying out the attack. But he adds, they talked about the movie and Weise's behavior seemed normal.

And actress Jennifer Aniston filed for divorce from Brad Pitt today. The petition cites irreconcilable differences. The couple announced a formal separation in January. They were married for nearly five years and have no children. It was the first marriage for both.

And that is the latest from Headline News.

NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN continues, but, first, CNN's anniversary series "Then and Now."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED")

JOHN WALSH, HOST: Welcome to "America's Most Wanted."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): He's best known as the driven host of "America's Most Wanted." John Walsh began his mission to track down criminals after being a victim himself. Walsh's 6-year- old son, Adam, disappeared from a Florida shopping mall in 1981.

WALSH: He's our only child. He's a beautiful little boy. And we just want him back.

How many of our children are missing?

HEMMER: John Walsh turned the grief over the abduction and murder of his son into a purpose.

WALSH: With 1.8 million children missing, it's damn time somebody did something about it besides me.

HEMMER: Walsh's congressional testimony and public pressure helped establish the National Center For Missing and Exploited Children. "America's Most Wanted," the fifth longest running TV show in history, has helped capture hundreds of fugitives around the world.

WALSH: I didn't want to be on television, didn't want to hunt men down. But you know what? My wife always said, said it to me. Let's make sure Adam didn't die in vain. HEMMER: Walsh has two children now in college and he's currently pushing for a crime victims rights amendment to the Constitution and still clutching for justice on behalf of his lost son.

WALSH: I don't have any closure. My son was murdered. I say that I have a deep wound that scabs sometime and something will break it open and it will bleed. But it never heals.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world.

We'll start with "The International Herald Tribune," so that we can justify saying around the world. Down here, please, Ed. "Post Dot-Coms Hot Market in U.S., the Can't-Miss Allure of Real Estate." It was a piece that actually played in "The New York Times" today saying that, essentially, real estate has become the Internet stocks of the year 2005. By the way, can you get that picture? You see that? That is Brad Pitt. You think we look alike?

"Washington Times." I'm just in need to say something amusing. This has been a tough week around here, and I bet for you all, too. "Court Again Rejects Aid For Schiavo" the leader in "The Washington Times." And "Baseball's Coming. Nats'" -- that's the Washington Nationals -- or is it the D.C. Nationals -- it's the Washington Nationals -- "Home Opener Now Just the Ticket, 10,000 More Seats Available." So, if you want to go to the ball game, stand in line tomorrow.

"Dallas Morning News." "Hazing Allegations Put Team to Shame. South Texas Prep Players Charged in Sexual Assaults on Freshmen." How sick is that?

"Philadelphia Inquirer" leads with Schiavo. "Court Again Rejects Bid For Schiavo." There is one more case in play in Clearwater before Judge Greer, unless they take it to the Supreme Court. We'll keep an eye on that.

I need to end this on a kind of upper today. "Newsday" in Long Island. "Cookie Master. Banker Buys 2,000 Boxes of Girl Scout Cookies and Gives Them to Charity." All thin mints is the way it works.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago, "rematch."

We'll wrap it up for the night in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Good to have you with us this week. We hope your weekend is terrific, good Easter. We'll see you on Monday.

Until then, good night for all of us. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 25, 2005 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. Everyone, at the end of a day heavy on symbolism, sound and fury, we begin tonight with the concrete. Terri Schiavo has now been without food and water for a week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S FATHER: I told her that we're still fighting for her and she shouldn't give up because we're not. But I think the people who are anxious to see her die are getting their wish. It's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The Schindlers' fight today included a trip back to the 11th circuit court of appeals. The Federal court in Atlanta which has ruled against them, tonight, the second time this week. Again, this afternoon, an extraordinary filing before Florida district court Judge Greer, who has handled much of the state part of this case claiming that Ms. Schiavo tried to utter the words "I want to live" as her feeding tube was removed. A ruling expected there sometimes before noon tomorrow. Mr. Schiavo's lawyer said the claim was bordering on abuse of the legal system.

And as the day unfolded, more protests. Some of them children were arrested. Eight people detained by police after trying to bring Ms. Schiavo water at the hospice where she's being cared for, including a pair of 13-year-old girls and a 10-year-old boy. But there's also an air of resignation setting in according to many observers there. And late tonight, the Schindlers went again before the crowd and the cameras outside. Mr. Schindler taking a shot at the judiciary as he has and Mrs. Schindler pleading with Governor Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY SCHINDLER: Governor Bush, you have the power to save my daughter. It's been seven days. Please, please, do something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: At her side was Randall Terry. Mr. Terry has been a prominent voice in the right-to-life movement for a long time, been prosecuted for some of his actions and is acting as a spokesman now for the Schindler family and he joins us tonight outside the hospice. Mr. Terry, it's good to see you. Can you explain to us what exactly it is that either you or the legal team or the Schindler family believes the governor of the state, who has been enormously sympathetic to you all, can possibly do on his own?

RANDALL TERRY, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: All right. Let's just follow the logic. Our government is set up to have three separate, but equal, branches of government. That's number one. Number two, they all swear an oath to uphold the constitution. If we're in a place in our country where the word of the judge is the equivalent of the word of law, and that's what the law means, the word of a judge, then any injustice committed against innocent people in Soviet Union or communist China or Nazi Germany, we can't condemn it because it was done under the rule of law.

So we're saying that the governor has the constitutional authority to uphold the constitutional right of her to have the right to life and she's a disabled person which our constitution in the state of Florida guarantees and that he needs to use his executive authority, through DCF, the Department of Children and Families, to uphold the statutes of the state and take her into custody. This judge has suspended the statutes of the state that apply to Terri through DCF. Our question is, why is Governor Bush caving in to a probate judge?

BROWN: All right. Let's just walk through as much of this as we can. Neither of us is a lawyer here. This court -- this case, this sad, sad case, has been litigated literally for years. It has been looked at -- there's probably been more due process in this case than any in the state of Florida's history. You have a governor who's enormously sympathetic, who has pushed bills through the legislature, who has been on your side. But he's come to a point where he says the law does not allow me to do it. Why are you guys beating him up over this?

TERRY: Because we don't believe that the law says that. The purpose of the law and the purpose of power, is justice. And if you are not prepared to use the law and power for justice, then that, by definition, is tyranny. Remember, in our declaration of independence, one of the things that the founders cited was judicial acts of tyranny and that that was, by definition, not law, that it was a usurpation of power, that it was despotism.

And so what we're saying again and again, and I feel like people just aren't getting it, the law is not equal to the word of a judge. And furthermore, you did point something out that I want to bring clarity to. The original record of this case is what everyone has to deal with. And, frankly, the original record was set by inexperienced attorneys 15 years ago, who left a record that is tantamount to legal malpractice. There were so many screw-ups in the original case that the family has been stuck with that.

That's why the Congress passed a law for a de novo hearing, which means totally new. So you've got 30 affidavits from neurologists saying she's not in PVS, but that's not in the original record. People coming forward saying that Michael Schiavo is a villain but none of that's in the record.

BROWN: Mr. Terry, I want to try and get --

TERRY: So they can't look at it.

BROWN: Let me try and get one more question in before we're done here. Are you prepared to say at this point that the legal route is essentially over?

TERRY: Well, it still could go to the Supreme Court. But we believe that the road to save Terri Schiavo goes through Tallahassee. In an hour of crisis, throughout history, what sets men apart as heroes is that they took action. And this moment, this pivotal moment, is going to be with Jeb Bush for the rest of his life. And it's Good Friday right now. Where Christ is remembered as hanging on the cross saying "I thirst." We're saying, Governor Bush, please, intervene, Terri thirsts. Intervene and save her life.

BROWN: Mr. Terry, it's good to see you. We appreciate your time. There's a lot of pulling at you these days.

TERRY: Aaron, thank you for having me.

BROWN: Thank you sir.

TERRY: Hope it's under better circumstances next time.

BROWN: I do, too. Thank you sir very much, Randall Terry, down in Florida tonight. You get some sense now, if you didn't have it before of the pressure that's been building on Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida. He has, just to review this, he has gone to the legislature on more than one occasion, two, one case successfully, another case not successfully, to try and get laws passed. He has said, this is what I can do, and this pressure continues on him in Tallahassee tonight. Here's CNN's Ed Henry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The scene at the governor's mansion on Good Friday, the day the Bible says Jesus Christ was crucified. Protesters led by the Reverend Patrick Mahoney explicitly using that symbolism to compare Jeb Bush to Pontius Pilate and Terri Schiavo to Jesus Christ.

REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: God, for give us as a nation. Forgive us as a people. Can we truly say that we are the land of the free and the home of the brave when, on Good Friday, a woman is being starved to death?

HENRY: This drama is culminating during holy week, intensifying an already highly highly-charged, religious and moral debate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heavenly Father, I come before you now and I ask you, in the mighty name of Jesus, that you would rescue Governor Bush from himself. That you would open his heart, Lord, to see what lies he's telling himself that gives him pause and makes him hesitate when he can save a woman's life.

HENRY: But the fervor is just as passionate on the other side with some prominent Christians saying the moral solution is to let Michael Schiavo's wife die with dignity.

FATHER JOHN PARIS, JESUIT PRIEST AND BIOETHICIST: We do not hold that one is morally obliged to do everything possible to sustain every life as long as possible and in fact we believe that that sort of an approach is wrong.

HENRY: Still, the fact that time is running out for Terri Schiavo on Easter weekend is ratcheting up the pressure on Governor Bush, who unlike his brother, is Catholic.

BRO. PAUL O'DONNELL, FRANCISCAN BROTHERS OF PEACE: On this Good Friday day, as one Catholic father to another, he's begging the governor to save his daughter, Bob Schindler Mary Schindler, are pleading with Governor Bush.

HENRY: Conservative activists want the governor to take custody of Schiavo by force, if necessary, citing a law that allows the state to move in if a patient is being abused. But Bush advisers say the governor believes his powers do not trump the court's and despite the pressure, some Republicans think that by not bending to the demands, the governor shows he is standing on principle and could get a political boost.

The governor had planned to participate in the stations of the cross during a Good Friday service. But he canceled after hearing that Mahoney and other protesters would be there, according to a priest at this cathedral. Mahoney was struck by the fifth station prayer that the governor would have read.

MAHONEY: My prayer for Governor Bush is simply what he would have read today -- help me to say yes and be willing to give heroic assistance to all who are in need. Governor Bush, please say yes to Terri and give her heroic assistance today, on Good Friday.

HENRY: Mahoney, who's been fasting for eight days in solidarity with Schiavo, compares her to Christ.

MAHONEY: Christ, innocent, enduring painful agony, suffering, being denied food and water. Terri Schiavo, innocent, powerless, going through this horrific death and Christ gave his life, went through this pain and suffering, so that we might live, we might have salvation and live. We already have seen the benefits of Terri's pain and suffering, creating this national conversation, getting Congress to vote, moving the president, discussing living wills, end of life.

HENRY: An aide says all of this is weighing heavily on the governor because of his concern for Schiavo and her parents, not because of the protests and pressures on him. Ed Henry, CNN, Tallahassee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Not everyone shares the governor's even temperament on all of this today. The FBI arrested a man in North Carolina. He's accused of offering on the Internet a quarter of a million dollars for the murder of Michael Schiavo and $50,000 to kill Judge Greer. Judge Greer, who according to the "Miami Herald," a strong believer in the right-to-life cause. He's a Republican, a southern Baptist who left his local church or perhaps was asked to leave his local church, there's some dispute there, because of all the attention the case has brought. In any case, Judge Greer appears to be the second-most vilified person, next to Michael Schiavo, by those trying to keep Ms. Schiavo alive. Security in and around the hospice as well has become a real concern.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The faithful still crowd outside the doors which is also where the cameras are. But for those who actually do get inside this hospice, to see Terri Schiavo, there is a careful choreographed procedure.

O'DONNELL: It's either red light or green light. And the family can have visitation rights suspended at anytime, whether it's for five hours or 10 hours or as yesterday, 12 hours.

BROWN: Brother Paul O'Donnell is among the small group of Schindler family advisers, who along with the family share a command center of sorts behind the doors of this thrift store, only a few feet from the media. He is among the few who have actually been inside the hospice.

O'DONNELL: You have to go through four security checkpoints, sign in at each checkpoint, show your driver's license, be body searched so that you don't have any cell phones or any cameras to take pictures of Terri. Then you have to go into Terri's room and in Terri's room there's an armed police officer at her bedside.

BROWN: Michael Schiavo, administrators say, has a residence room available to him inside the building, not uncommon for relatives whose loved ones are in hospice care. And hospice administrators say it is also common for the spouse to control the visitors list, but right now, under these pressures even small details can become flashpoints.

O'DONNELL: Terri's room is right next to the nurse's station and right next to the nurse's station is a visitor's waiting room. And the Schindler family is told they cannot be in that waiting room or they cannot be on the property of hospice at any time unless they're in Terri's room.

BROWN: By all accounts, the time available to actually see Terri Schiavo alive is rapidly shrinking.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The brother of Terri Schiavo will join us in a few moments. Much more ahead in the hour as well, including two families facing the same painful decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt that a man was keeping (UNINTELLIGIBLE) alive and God wanted her. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When two people marry, the Bible says, you leave your family and cling to your husband or wife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A father and a wife, both determined to let a loved one die, though others fought hard to stop them. Was the government out of line?

How we die. Is emotion blurring the facts in the Terri Schiavo case?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the biggest misconception right now is that removal of artificial hydration and nutrition is the same thing as starvation and it's really not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What happens when a feeding tube is removed? What does the dying patient feel?

And beyond the heartbreak and high emotions, the ethics of it all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The issue, you know, isn't whether we allow life to go on. The issue is, can people control their medical care?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A conversation with renowned medical ethicist, Dr. Arthur Kaplan. From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The scene outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, where Terri Schiavo lives, again still, tonight. In a moment, her brother, Bobby Schindler joins us. He'll join us from there. He's been seeing his sister. First, as we -- it's a little bit past a quarter past the hour. A number of other stories made news tonight. Erica Hill joins us again from Atlanta. Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening Aaron. We start off with what is sort of raising some questions. President Bush called India's leader today to explain his decision to supply about two dozen F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan. The prime minister expressed great disappointment at hearing the news and said the sale of sophisticated warplanes to its long-time nuclear rival would endanger security in the region. The aircraft are capable of delivering nuclear weapons. A U.S. official says the decision was linked to Pakistan's cooperation in the war against terrorism.

For the first time in 26 years, Pope John Paul II did not take part in the Good Friday procession at Rome's coliseum today. Instead, he appeared on video, sitting in his chapel at the Vatican. The pope's ill health has forced him to skip a series of holy week events. He's been hospitalized twice recently for breathing problems including surgery last month to insert a breathing tube into his throat.

And prosecutors presented some fingerprint evidence in the Michael Jackson trial today. They showed jurors a sexually explicit magazine, asserted fingerprints from both Jackson and his accuser were found on it. They also say they found the accuser's fingerprints on another magazine and an adult video calendar. The defense has argued the boy's fingerprints got on the magazine when he handled it during grand jury hearing and not when he was with the pop star. That's the latest from "headline news." Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Erica, thank you. We heard at the top of the program, from Terri Schiavo's father. Her husband and her brother in law, who you'll recall hold the opposing view, they have chosen to stay out of the public eye tonight, the Schiavo side of this tragedy. Ms. Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, joins us now from Florida. It's good to see you. This has been another difficult day in the courts. Do the -- have the lawyers pretty much said we are out of legal cases to bring?

BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S BROTHER: I don't know. I haven't spoken to my lawyers or our lawyers since the ruling just came in. I don't know if we have any options left or not.

BROWN: Let me ask it differently, just personally, you've gone through this string of bad rulings all week, difficult rulings all week. Have you lost confidence that you'll find a relief that your family hopes for in the courts?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, really, the bad court rulings, specifically Judge Greer, has been a ruling in this matter for five years. This past two weeks is just really what our family's experienced for a long time. No, I had no confidence in the courts. It looks like, in order to save my sister's life, we're going to have to somehow circumvent the courts and find another way.

BROWN: Have you and has the family been able to see her pretty much when you want to see her for as long as you want to see her?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, we can visit. There are blocks of time during the day that for whatever reason, Michael Schiavo does not allow us to go visit Terri. They can last, at his discretion they have lasted several hours this past week. But other than that, our family can go and visit Terri, you know when we please.

BROWN: Has there been -- Bobby, has there been any attempt to get your side of the family and the Schiavos and Michael together to see if there are, even after all of these years and all this bad feeling if somehow this couldn't be resolved otherwise?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, my father sent a letter to Michael back in 1993 asking him just that, you know? Terri's our family, we just want her back and take care of her and bring her home, and Michael refused. And we made this plea over and over again. You know, Michael -- it frustrates me when I hear this is a family dispute. This is not a family dispute. Terri's family wants to bring her home and take care of her. Michael has his own family. He has been cohabitating with another woman now for 10 years. Has two children with this woman. And we simply say, Michael, take care of your family, and let us take care of Terri.

BROWN: So, not really since 1993, 12 years ago, has there been an attempt to try and mediate this, is that right?

B. SCHINDLER: Well, there was a mediation attempt just a few years ago and that was unsuccessful, but it was with lawyers and judges involved. And I said over and over again, I've made my intentions clear through the media and other means that I would sit down with Michael Schiavo at any time and try to work this out, just him and I. But that never, you know, took place. And unfortunately, we are here today, you know, going through this horrible ordeal.

BROWN: Everybody I think agrees with that, it has been a horrible ordeal. Bobby, nice to talk to you tonight. Thank you, Bobby Schindler in Florida.

As much of a public spectacle as the Schiavo case has become, the woman at the center of it is shielded from public view, which clouds the story some. It's now been a week since Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected. Her husband and brother-in-law have said she appears peaceful. Her parents and siblings describe a much different scene.

What Terri Schiavo may be feeling, whether she is in pain or not, how close to death she may be, those are questions many of us have. Dr. Nathan Goldstein of the Mount Sinai Hospital in New York specializes in geriatrics and the end of life care. And we talked with him earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. NATHAN GOLDSTEIN, MT. SINAI: After a week of stopping artificial hydration and nutrition, patients -- the kidneys at this point would begin to function less and less. The toxin in the blood would begin to build up, and the levels of certain things in the blood, such as potassium, would probably begin to increase.

The only symptom that patients at this point might be experiencing or the family might be noticing, again, because she's not actually experiencing it -- is things such as a dry mouth or dry lips. And that's treated very easily with, for example, swabs or ice chips. Patients in persistent vegetative states, whom we stop artificial hydration and nutrition on, aren't dying because we stopped it. They die because they were never able to eat and drink in the first place. Remember, just because we're stopping artificial hydration and nutrition doesn't mean that we're stopping care or that we are abandoning her.

So with good medical interventions and any symptoms that might come up in other patients, we can control any discomfort or any symptoms that patients might have.

The role of hospice is not just to abandon patients when they come to the end of life. It's just the opposite. In fact, the most difficult care, the most intensive care for patients in hospice happens near the end of life. And as much as nobody wants to die, I think we all have to realize that death is a very natural process. And the body has certain mechanisms that over time begin to break down, and so that there is a natural process to death, just as there is a natural process to birth. And the things in this case, this is one of the most peaceful ways to die, because the body takes over and makes sure that we're not awake and aware and that we don't suffer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That word is the what of this story. In a moment, the whys and the whethers and everything else that makes this story such a difficult and a painful one. Our Friday conversation tonight with professor Arthur Caplan, who has made a career out of asking and helping us understand these sorts of questions. We take a break first on a Friday night. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On a difficult story such as this, our best role is to present as many sides of the issue as we can. This week, we've had theologians and advocate for the disabled, constitutional scholar. And tonight a medical ethicist, Dr. Arthur Caplan, is one of the country's leading ethicists, chairman of the Department of Medical Ethics at the University of Pennsylvania. We talked with him yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: From the ethicist's point of view, is this an easy case?

DR. ARTHUR CAPLAN, ETHICIST: You know, I'm going to surprise you, Aaron, and say it is an easy case. Not that it's easy to watch the emotions and the fighting of the family, but ever since Karen Ann Quinlan in 1976, we've had a consensus about how to manage these cases.

There's no doubt that people have the right to say no to medical treatments. Jehovah's Witnesses do, Christian Scientists do, people dying of cancer do. Sometimes people with Lou Gehrig's disease say that's it. There is no doubt that you turn to the next of kin when they can't speak, and the first in line there is the husband or the wife. There's no doubt that feeding tubes are medical treatments. None.

I am at a school where one of my colleagues spent 40 years trying to develop the fluids that go into feeding tubes. And it's clear that that was a difficult thing to do, a difficult thing to figure out. No doubt, it's a technology. And there's no doubt that if you have a dispute, like we've seen with this family, vicious as it may be, as emotional as it may be, you take it to the ethics committee locally. And if that doesn't work, you go to local courts. So that system has worked. It's produced a lot of consensus over the past 30 years.

BROWN: Karen Ann Quinlan wasn't about a feeding tube. It was about life support. Is there a difference?

CAPLAN: Well, remember, Karen Ann Quinlan was the landmark case that said even if you're unconscious and can't communicate, others can stop life support for you.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: Nancy Cruzan in 1990, the case that made it to the U.S. Supreme Court, was about a feeding tube. The U.S. Supreme Court looked at this case and said, look, it doesn't matter whether a feeding tube is easy to use or difficult to use. What matters is, is that doctors and nurses administer it. That makes it medicine.

BROWN: OK.

CAPLAN: And if it's medicine, you can say no to it.

BROWN: What do you think the -- and this -- this tragedy, it's a family tragedy. It's a personal tragedy. And there's almost no other way to look at it. It's almost shameful to describe it as a story -- is full of both facts and I think to some extent mythology at this point.

As you've looked at it and listened to it play out, particularly this week, what are the great misconceptions here?

CAPLAN: One misconception is, is that somehow or other we can help somebody recover or make some progress from a permanent vegetative state. There isn't anybody who knows how to do that. There's even a little bit of a mythology here that somehow or another it's wrong to take away that feeding tube because Terri's going to suffer and miserably die.

You hear starvation. You hear about the symptoms. Terri's in a hospice. And one thing I'm very proud of, and resent almost, that's been going on in describing her dying, is that hospices give good palliative care to people.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: They don't put them in the corner and leave them to die. They use narcotics if they have to. They know how to manage a dying person. Anybody who has had a relive at a hospice knows that they're heroes. And that bothers me as well.

BROWN: There's some basic things here. But I think here's where some people get kind of messed up in this. Sometimes, I have in this week. Is she in pain?

CAPLAN: I don't believe she can be in the pain that we all know. She can't be conscious. She can't suffer in any self-aware sense. She has reflexes.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK. In that sense, Doctor, if she can't -- if she is not in any sense present, if she has no awareness, if she's not suffering, then why not allow her to live?

CAPLAN: Well, the issue, you know, isn't whether we allow life to go on. The issue is, can people control their medical care?

I mean, again, when that Christian science spouse says, my husband, who is unconscious, doesn't believe in medicine, he wants prayer, he certainly could live if we gave him blood or antibiotics or insulin, pretty simple things, but we don't because we respect somebody's right to say, I don't want your medical care.

And, similarly, with Terri, it isn't a question of killing her or saying, gosh, she's got a terrible life or her quality of life is not worthy of support. It is that she told her husband, and it was confirmed many times in court that she said this, if I'm in that state, don't keep me that way. And that's what we're acting on. No one's trying to end the lives of the disabled around the country. Nobody is saying, if you're in a persistent vegetative state, take your feeding tube out.

It's in this case where she said to her husband, don't leave me this way, that you see the removal of the feeding tube.

BROWN: Let me pause here. That's where I want to pick this up after the break.

We're talking with Dr. Arthur Caplan. We'll continue in just a second.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're talking with Dr. Arthur Caplan.

Dr. Caplan, when we went to break, we were talking about the fact that this was her expressed wish and the importance of that. Here's where this leads me. Somebody said to me the other day that, casually, we say this a lot. If I'm in that situation, I don't want to live. I wouldn't want to live in a condition like that. But one of the things that the assisted suicide law in Oregon has taught us, I think, is that, in fact, when people who are terminal, sometimes in great pain, in fact, and with the wherewithal to end their lives, they have the pills in their hand, come to not the theoretical, but to the reality, they say, this life, as difficult as it may be, is better than what I fear follows.

CAPLAN: I think you're right, Aaron. It's amazing to me that people literally with the pills in their hand, suffering from terminal illness, still say, I prefer to live. But when you ask people a slightly different question, were your brain to be severely damaged, were you to be to the point where you can't interact, can't feel, can't have a meaningful existence, the overwhelming majority of people at that point say, please don't continue trying to keep me alive. Please don't do this to me.

BROWN: Is there anything about this case you wish you knew that you do not know?

CAPLAN: Well, one of the things that obviously I really wish I knew is whether Terri somehow or another would have said, of course I picked my husband.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: I loved him. I knew him for five years of marriage. There was never any question raised about that relationship. You wish you could hear a louder voice on her part.

And, ideally, I wish she would have filled out a living will and advanced directives. Now, 21-year-olds are not likely to be doing that.

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: But I wish -- I wish that it happened.

BROWN: They may be more likely to do it after this week, to be honest.

CAPLAN: Let's hope.

BROWN: Which leads, I think, to a couple of areas.

The country, I think, from where I've watched this and to some degree I suppose participated in, has been involved in an extraordinary national conversation. Some of it, the loudest part, plays out on TV, but I suspect that it more quietly plays out at dinner tables and bedrooms at night and all sorts of places. On balance, has this been a good week for the country on this issue?

CAPLAN: I think it has leaned toward being a good week. And I'll tell you why. I think it has stimulated conversation. I think people -- I'm not sure how many people are going to run out and fill out their living wills. Some will.

But people have talked with one another, expressed their views, expressed their values, and that is a good thing. And that's an important thing. I think that people have come to understand and think about things like feeding tubes, understand the choices that have to be made when you go into the hospital and are facing either severe, disabling injury or terminal illness. And that's a good thing.

I even think there's something good about the fact that the public has been faced with a question, where's the best place to settle these issues?

BROWN: Yes.

CAPLAN: Do you want them in Washington? Do you want them locally? Do you want families making decisions? Do you want federal judges? Do you want the president? Do you want the governor?

My sense is that, when you really push that to the wall, you get back the answer, keep it local, keep it as private as you can.

BROWN: In that, just tell me, give me a sense of how -- I mean, you're one of these people that's out there on these sorts of things. People see you. They've come to know you over a period of time. I assume they get your e-mail address in the same way they get mine and they've communicated with you. How has that gone?

CAPLAN: Boy, they've communicated with me.

(LAUGHTER)

CAPLAN: That's true. I've never seen so many e-mails and messages, thousands.

Initially, I think, people, before this got to Congress, as people heard about the case, they tended to say, keep her alive. This is something that bothered people. Maybe they weren't sure about the husband's ability to represent her views. And some thought, this is just a kind of anti-disability campaign.

When Congress got involved, the feedback to me began to shift and shift drastically. People began to say, I don't know if I want Tom DeLay, who hasn't heard anything about the facts of this case, sort of saying, the judge is wicked and it's bettor resolve this here than to let local court authorities get into it. And they began to also think harder and say, well, wait a minute, is this really about somebody's wishes, somebody's directives?

Is it about controlling our medical care? So I've seen a shift, if you will, more toward worrying about, are we foisting unwanted care on someone and then absolutely a reaction saying, I don't think the people in Washington are in the best position to mediate these cases.

BROWN: Dr. Caplan, it's always good to see you, because we always see you on issues that we all, to one degree or another, I think struggle with and try to come to terms with. It's good to have you with us tonight.

CAPLAN: Appreciate it.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Dr. Arthur Caplan, the University of Pennsylvania.

Still to come, two families who also faced life-and-death decisions, plus headlines from Atlanta and tomorrow's headlines from the rooster. Wait. I do that, don't I?

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: For some families the Schiavo case hits uncomfortably close to home. For those who have agonized over whether to end a loved one's life, and there are many people, the drama unfolding in Florida is a reminder of their own battles fought, often in court.

Here's CNN's Alina Cho.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Whenever Terri Schiavo's face appears on television, Mary Martin is riveted to the screen and very angry.

MARY MARTIN, WIDOW OF VICTIM: Enough is enough. Not everyone wants to just exist.

CHO: One hundred fifty miles away, in another quiet Michigan town, Fran Rosebush is also angry.

FRANCIS ROSEBUSH, FATHER OF VICTIM: The husband shouldn't go against the mother and father, because, yes, that's their daughter. And you know what? They had her long before he did.

CHO: The Schiavo case brings back agonizing memories for both. Both have had loved ones on life support. Both believe the government should not be deciding whether someone should live or die.

MARTIN: I believe that, if Terri Schiavo lived in Michigan or, you know, California, any place other than Florida, where Jeb Bush, brother to the president, was living, it would not be at the magnitude that it is today.

ROSEBUSH: I'm a very strong Bush supporter. I listen to Rush Limbaugh.

CHO (on camera): But?

ROSEBUSH: But I don't agree with him on this.

CHO (voice-over): Eighteen years ago, Fran Rosebush watched helplessly as his daughter Joelle, then 10 years old, was hit by a car. The accident left her in a persistent vegetative state. After more than a year of medical treatment, Rosebush decided to take his daughter off life support.

ROSEBUSH: I felt that man was keeping Joelle alive and God wanted her.

CHO: Three of his daughter's nurses fought him on it, but Rosebush won in court. Mary Martin did not.

CHO (on camera): Do you think Mike was able to die with dignity?

MARTIN: Oh, his dignity was stripped of him, but he was finally able to go and be with his God.

CHO: Four days after Joelle Rosebush's accident, Martin, her husband, Mike, and their three children were in their car, Mike at the wheel, when a train hit them.

MARTIN: I remember saying, is everyone OK? And the only one that responded was my eldest daughter, Mindy (ph), saying, mom, I'm fine. Matt's crying and I don't know about dad.

CHO: The Martins' youngest daughter, 7-year-old Melanie, died instantly. Her father was severely brain-damaged. Mary Martin fought to have his feeding tube removed, but lost a lengthy court battle to his family; 15 years later, Michael Martin died of pneumonia.

Martin believes she should have had the right to decide what happened to her husband and Michael Schiavo should decide what happens to his wife.

MARTIN: When two people marry, the Bible says, you leave your family and cling to your husband or wife.

CHO: She says her husband never wanted to be kept alive by machines. Look no further than Michael Martin's headstone, three dates, the day he was born, the day Mary says he died, and she says the day his soul was sent to heaven.

MARTIN: Ultimately...

CHO (on camera): You feel as though you let him down?

MARTIN: I feel to this day that I let him down.

CHO (voice-over): Both of them agree that Terri Schiavo's parents are letting their daughter down by turning the case into a national and political spectacle.

Alina Cho, CNN, Detroit, Michigan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: On a day and a week where one story has dominated so much of our time, other things have made news as well.

And, for that, again, we go to Erica Hill in Atlanta -- Erica.

HILL: Hello again, Aaron.

U.S. forces in Iraq have apparently thwarted a mass escape from a prison cape. A 600-foot-long escape tunnel was discovered at Camp Bucca. Camp Bucca houses more than 5,000 detainees. The tunnel was about 10 feet underground. The prisoners were reportedly dumping the sand and dirt from their digging into the toilets. And that jamming up the sewage system. A head count revealed, no one got away, even though the tunnel appeared to be ready.

Officials think they may have been waiting for poor weather to help avoid capture.

A friend of Jeff Weise is some offering possible insight into the teenager's mind-set. Shortly before he went on a shooting rampage at his school in Minnesota, Sky Grant says, earlier this month, he watched a movie with Weise called "Elephant," which is about a school shooting. Grant says Weise would skip ahead to the parts that showed students planning and carrying out the attack. But he adds, they talked about the movie and Weise's behavior seemed normal.

And actress Jennifer Aniston filed for divorce from Brad Pitt today. The petition cites irreconcilable differences. The couple announced a formal separation in January. They were married for nearly five years and have no children. It was the first marriage for both.

And that is the latest from Headline News.

NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN continues, but, first, CNN's anniversary series "Then and Now."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED")

JOHN WALSH, HOST: Welcome to "America's Most Wanted."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): He's best known as the driven host of "America's Most Wanted." John Walsh began his mission to track down criminals after being a victim himself. Walsh's 6-year- old son, Adam, disappeared from a Florida shopping mall in 1981.

WALSH: He's our only child. He's a beautiful little boy. And we just want him back.

How many of our children are missing?

HEMMER: John Walsh turned the grief over the abduction and murder of his son into a purpose.

WALSH: With 1.8 million children missing, it's damn time somebody did something about it besides me.

HEMMER: Walsh's congressional testimony and public pressure helped establish the National Center For Missing and Exploited Children. "America's Most Wanted," the fifth longest running TV show in history, has helped capture hundreds of fugitives around the world.

WALSH: I didn't want to be on television, didn't want to hunt men down. But you know what? My wife always said, said it to me. Let's make sure Adam didn't die in vain. HEMMER: Walsh has two children now in college and he's currently pushing for a crime victims rights amendment to the Constitution and still clutching for justice on behalf of his lost son.

WALSH: I don't have any closure. My son was murdered. I say that I have a deep wound that scabs sometime and something will break it open and it will bleed. But it never heals.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world.

We'll start with "The International Herald Tribune," so that we can justify saying around the world. Down here, please, Ed. "Post Dot-Coms Hot Market in U.S., the Can't-Miss Allure of Real Estate." It was a piece that actually played in "The New York Times" today saying that, essentially, real estate has become the Internet stocks of the year 2005. By the way, can you get that picture? You see that? That is Brad Pitt. You think we look alike?

"Washington Times." I'm just in need to say something amusing. This has been a tough week around here, and I bet for you all, too. "Court Again Rejects Aid For Schiavo" the leader in "The Washington Times." And "Baseball's Coming. Nats'" -- that's the Washington Nationals -- or is it the D.C. Nationals -- it's the Washington Nationals -- "Home Opener Now Just the Ticket, 10,000 More Seats Available." So, if you want to go to the ball game, stand in line tomorrow.

"Dallas Morning News." "Hazing Allegations Put Team to Shame. South Texas Prep Players Charged in Sexual Assaults on Freshmen." How sick is that?

"Philadelphia Inquirer" leads with Schiavo. "Court Again Rejects Bid For Schiavo." There is one more case in play in Clearwater before Judge Greer, unless they take it to the Supreme Court. We'll keep an eye on that.

I need to end this on a kind of upper today. "Newsday" in Long Island. "Cookie Master. Banker Buys 2,000 Boxes of Girl Scout Cookies and Gives Them to Charity." All thin mints is the way it works.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago, "rematch."

We'll wrap it up for the night in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Good to have you with us this week. We hope your weekend is terrific, good Easter. We'll see you on Monday.

Until then, good night for all of us. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com