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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Terri Schiavo Dies; Pope John Paul's Health Cause for Concern

Aired March 31, 2005 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone. The health of Pope John Paul II, as you may know, has taken another turn for the worst today. How big a turn is still unclear. The questions outnumber the answers tonight. But this much we know. The Vatican says the pontiff is being treated with antibiotics for a high fever caused by a urinary tract infection. CNN's Rome bureau chief, Alessio Vinci, starts us off tonight.
We have a little more information now, don't we?

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: That is correct, Aaron. Information that came to us last night here in Rome, and that is that the pope has been diagnosed with a high fever, first of all, and that it was treated with antibiotics. That high fever given to him because of a urinary tract infection.

The Vatican officials last night, before going to sleep, told us that the pope is responding well to treatment and that nevertheless, however, his condition remains serious. So much in fact that one Vatican official is telling us that the pope has received what is known as last rites or the sacrament of the sick, which is a blessing. That does not necessarily that the pope is in an imminent death situation. It is a blessing that can also be performed on patients who are very sick. And this appears to be the case with the pope.

It is not the first time this blessing was given to the pope. Actually back in 1981, when he was shot in St. Peter's Square, the pope received that same kind of blessing. As you know, of course, the pope survived that attack.

And finally, Aaron, the medical sources here in Rome are telling us that at this time there are no provisions to take the pope back to the Gemelli Hospital where he has spent several weeks in the past few months. This, of course, can be interpreted in two ways. Either the Vatican doctors are confident that they can deal with this situation at the Vatican with the equipment that they have there. And it is indeed top of the line equipment to deal with the pope. Or that perhaps the pope is so sick, so frail, that basically it is too dangerous to take him to the Gemelli Hospital.

But the situation at this time remains, again, extremely serious. Back to you, Aaron.

BROWN: But at what point in the day, if we know, do we expect to get the next medical bulletin, if that's the right way to frame it? VINCI: Well, we do know that the Vatican press office opens at 9 a.m. local time. That's about three hours from now. We do expect I believe later on, perhaps, a bulletin or medical update from Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who is the Vatican spokesman, himself a physician. We do expect some kind of an update from the pope from the Vatican.

Of course, this, as you can imagine, Aaron, in the last few hours, the world's media descended on Rome and all of us are craving for more information and the Vatican will have to give us something about the pope later on today.

BROWN: Yes, we are. Alessio, thank you. Alessio Vinci in Rome where it's 6:00 in the morning, a little past that. By any stretch it's been a tough week for Pope John Paul II, unable to speak on Easter Sunday to the crowds gathered at St. Peter's. Unable to speak yesterday as well during his weekly general audience, looking very, very ill and frail yesterday.

The Vatican announcing that he had been given a feeding tube inserted in his nose to help provide nutrition as he recovers from a tracheotomy, and now this additional setback. We're joined now by CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and here in New York, Dr. Simon Hall, who is the chairman of the Department of Urology at Mt. Sinai School of Medicine.

So Dr. Hall, let me turn to you. Urinary tract infection, unusual in a Parkinson's patient who has gone through what the pope has gone through in the last couple of months?

DR. SIMON HALL, MT. SINAI SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: No, I think it's not unusual. We know that Parkinson's patients can have bladder dysfunction. They may not empty their bladder particularly well. He's also elderly. He probably had some prostate problems on top of that, which can worsen. And he's been debilitated for some time. We don't know, perhaps he's even had a catheter draining his bladder already, which could either be the cause of this infection or he needed a catheter as he wasn't emptying very well and now has gotten -- had an infection.

BROWN: Sanjay, it's sort of axiomatic and it may also be true that hospitals are dangerous places, at least where infection is concerned. It's a place you can pick up infections, do you agree with that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And some of the most dangerous bacteria actually are in hospitals because that's where a lot of antibiotics are used. So the bacteria that survive are particularly bad ones, Aaron.

BROWN: The blood pressure question. What causes the blood pressure to drop?

GUPTA: Yes, that's a concerning point. What could possibly cause the blood pressure to drop is if this infection was particularly a bad infection. We've heard that it's isolated to urinary tract as we just talked about. But if it had gotten into the bloodstream for example, that could cause some problems with his blood pressure. We don't know that for sure, but that's one of the first things that pop into mind as a doctor.

BROWN: Dr. Hall, I'm curious about the first things that pop into your mind as a urologist here. Is the concern that it is a urinary tract infection or is it a concern that somewhere in the pope's system, anywhere in the pope's system, he has a serious infection that they're having to aggressively treat? Is that the problem?

HALL: Well, I think certainly the fact that he has a high fever and perhaps there are some issues with his blood pressure would be more than just a simple bladder infection, that this sounds more like there perhaps are either bacteria or the toxins from bacteria in his bloodstream.

BROWN: And tell me what that means medically.

HALL: So we'd call that sepsis, that perhaps he has what we call urosepsis, which would mean that he has bacteria in the blood that originated in the urinary tract. And part of the reaction to body is that you may have a low blood pressure. You may have trouble keeping a good blood pressure. And that worst case that somebody may have problems oxygenating. They may have changes in mental status. And in worst case...

BROWN: Tell me what oxygenating means.

HALL: So that they may not be able to get enough oxygen to their tissues, to their heart, to the vital organs to the brain. And they may not -- in order to make up for that, they'll have to breathe very rapidly, and we already know the pope had some issues with that already.

BROWN: I suspect -- what I'm trying to delicately ask, and what in the end people really want to know, is how dangerous a situation is this? Is the pope's life threatened?

HALL: Well, I don't know. I don't know if I would say I have enough information to say...

BROWN: Fair enough.

HALL: ... but certainly we know he's been ill for some time. He's, I'm sure, quite debilitated since he needed to have a feeding tube for nutrition, and now on top of it has -- certainly sounds more than just a routine bladder infection, that he's quite ill. And it's unclear whether he would be critically ill or just seriously ill, whether he needs to be on medication to keep his blood pressure where we would like it, and whether or not he needs to be on a ventilator so he can -- to breathe for him.

So we don't know that right now. So I think that certainly someone goes on antibiotics. We know that usually someone will react well and within about 24 hours. But sometimes the insult may be too much. That even with the correct antibiotics, the body is unable to recover from the insult from having bacteria in the blood. Time will tell.

BROWN: Sanjay, give you the last word. You want to give a second opinion on this?

GUPTA: No. I agree with that. A couple of months now, though, we've been talking about the pope. He was hospitalized for 10 days in the beginning of February. Then he got this tracheotomy. Then he got a feeding tube. Then he had a high fever now. They think it's isolated to urinary tract.

If you weren't describing the pope and you talked about any man in his 80s with these significant medical problems who's now had this sequence over the last couple of months, it'd be very concerning, I think, to any doctor who's been following this case. So I'm concerned, as I think many doctors are and many people are tonight.

BROWN: I was going to say, I think all of us, whether Catholics, non-Catholics, medical people, non-medical people, people who are aware of the pope's impact on the planet over the last 25 years are concerned. Gentlemen, thank you both, appreciate it.

This latest setback for the pope comes on the heels of two hospitalizations, as we mentioned, since February, both respiratory problems which have greatly diminished his public presence. He seems to have aged dramatically since the first of the year. The 84-year- old pontiff, he'll be 85 in about six weeks, has pulled through many health crises, but it's clear that each new one takes a toll. We're joined from the Vatican now by CNN Vatican analyst John Allen.

John, it's good to see you. Obviously there is -- even before today, there was in the Vatican great concern about the pope's health. Can you tell if there is under way, as indelicate as this must seem, planning for his eventual death?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, Aaron, I think the clear answer to that question is yes. Not in the sense that Vatican officials have any reason to believe that that's imminent, and we need to stress that. That while the situation has been properly described as one of grave concern, there is no sense at the moment that anything is imminent.

But clearly Vatican officials have for some time known that this moment may come and it may come sooner rather than later. And so the series of events that would be triggered by the pope's death are already well-choreographed here. Vatican radio has plans in place to begin playing funeral music, when that moment comes, for example.

The pope's Office of Liturgical Ceremonies has its sort of ducks in a row to begin the highly elaborate series of rituals that would be played. And obviously I think it's also fair to say that in the privacies of their own consciences, the cardinals themselves, those 117, as of today, cardinals who are under 80 and therefore would be eligible to vote in a papal election obviously have been preparing themselves for what they're going to have to think about and the challenges they're going to be facing when that moment comes.

BROWN: John, to the extent that there are day to day responsibilities for the pope, who has been doing them?

ALLEN: Well, that's a great question, Aaron. I think -- the truth is this: Everyone who has been in to the pope during this period comes out emphasizing that he remains fully lucid, fully aware of what's going on, able to absorb information and make decisions.

So I think the truth is that when these decisions are made, and since the first of March, the pope has, for example, appointed 29 bishops, I think we all have to assume that he is at the end of that process saying either yes or no to those appointments.

The other truth is that 99.5 percent of the work in preparing that appointment in making the decision is being done by others. And I think there is, by universal agreement, the four most significant others in the Vatican today, would be: his private secretary, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz; Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who runs the Congregation for the Faith, that's the Vatican's doctrinal office; Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who is sort of the Vatican's top diplomat; and Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, who runs the Congregation for Bishops. Certainly between them, those four men are carrying a lot of the weight today that ordinarily would rest squarely on the pope's own soldiers.

BROWN: John, as always, you know your stuff. Good to have you with us tonight. Thank you, John Allen who is in Rome.

Vatican officials could someday soon be facing the kind of terrible medical decisions that so many families face every day and that seem to have dominated the national conversation for a long time around here, what steps should be taken, should his life be prolonged by extraordinary measures? And just what constitutes extraordinary these days? And of course, what may be the most central question: What does the pope himself want?

From Rome, here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a number of different ways, senior churchmen are now laying the groundwork for papal medical treatment which could prolong the pope's long-term on respirators, feeding tubes, and fluid drips.

For instance, in an interview with CNN, Cardinal Jorge Medina said using extraordinary means to keep a person alive depends on the person's role in society. And besides, he added, artificial respiration is no longer considered an extraordinary means.

And the pope himself, in little-noticed remarks last year to a congress, called Life Sustaining Treatments in the Vegetative State, wrote this: "The administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural means of preserving life. Its use should be considered morally obligatory until it's seemed to have attained its proper finality."

From that, churchmen have concluded the pope's will is to be kept alive even if he cannot breathe or eat or swallow. A Parkinson's specialist who has treated the pope says John Paul could survive for some time.

DR. FABRIZIO STOCCHI, PARKINSON'S DISEASE SPECIALIST: Some people live for ages in that situation if you think about prolonged coma because of a trauma or other things like that. They can live for years. Of course, the pope is old, and that could be a problem. And plus we have to bear in mind that a critical patient under that condition can actually easily get infections. And that might be a very important risk.

BITTERMANN: Dr. Stocchi says the pope's survival will ultimately depend on the strength of his heart, which he believes has been under increased strain as John Paul's breathing problems have worsened.

STOCCHI: The most important factor in the pope's situation today is actually the posture. The neck is bended and actually on the chest. And these lead the head to be positioned forward. And in this position, actually the breathing is not easy.

BITTERMANN: Medical and church sources say that while the pope has been away at the hospital, his apartments have been equipped with all he might need in the way of artificial breathing and feeding equipment. But Catholic moral theologians who deal with long-term care for the dying, say the most difficult issue is not whether to start artificial treatment, but when to stop it.

FATHER BRIAN JOHNSTONE, MORAL THEOLOGIAN: The basic question is whether the means of treatment are actually treating the patient, doing some good, or whether those means of treatment are only making things worse.

BITTERMANN: Church moralists like Father Johnstone advise Catholics all the time about the difficult choices involved in the care of dying loved ones. But it's clear that the pope's condition is leading to new examination of church values.

JOHNSTONE: If the pope continued to live and was being maintained by a respirator, say, for a long time, could you reach the point where it could be morally justified to stop? Well, for the reasons that I have already explained, the answer could be yes, but there could other factors in the issue concerning the pope's particular immense responsibilities which might add another item that would have to be weighed.

BITTERMANN: But who could possibly weigh such a question in the case of the supreme pontiff?

(on camera): Father Johnstone says if a person is unable to decide for himself how long artificial care should continue, it's generally left up to his family. But in this case, he added, only the pope can decide. Leaving open the question of what would happen if the pope were to slip into a coma. (voice-over): The answer is clear for those here who, like the pope, suffer from Parkinson's. Ricardo Farina (ph), who is younger than John Paul, but who has had the disease just as long, believes those around the pope should never give up, even if he's at death's door.

"Hope is the last thing to die," he says, "anyone who is sick thinks that way. If you believe in God, you only have to wait for the decision of God."

While the church fathers are not facing any life and death dilemmas just yet, with the pope now breathing through a tube and barely able to speak, it's become apparent they may be soon.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT, how Catholics around the world are responding to this latest serious health crisis for the pope, and how John Paul II has changed the papacy forever. A break first, from New York, this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Vatican on an early Friday morning, the first day of April in Rome. What's going on behind those walls and those lights, we can't be precisely sure, but we do know the pope is quite sick.

We turn next -- the news of this latest crisis has moved quickly in this world and has Catholics and I daresay non-Catholics around the world concerned the pope -- this pope in particular, has had enormous influence on world events. We turn to Oakbrook, Illinois, where Father John Bartunek joins us. He lives in Rome. He studied for an advanced degree in moral theology. He met the pope as a seminary student. He served Mass with him. And he is the author of "Inside the Passion." We're pleased to have him with us.

The pope -- this is a non-Catholic's perspective, if you will, the pope has spent much of his time talking to us all about how to live. I wonder if in this phase of his life, and I hope it goes on for a long time, he's also teaching us some lessons in how to die.

FATHER JOHN BARTUNEK, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE PASSION": Oh yes, absolutely. I think that the same theme applies to both, the theme that he started his papacy, which has been an inspiration I know for myself and for many of my brother seminarians when we were in the seminary and my fellow priests now; his theme of "do not be afraid."

He has lived a life of courage. And he is expressing that same courage in the way that he is continuing to carry out his mission even from the cross where he finds himself. And he has been dealing with these issues without fear, with courage, humility. And I think that's a lesson for all of us. It's an inspiration for all of us. BROWN: I mean, he has almost literally since childhood gone through almost every major event of import in his lifetime, from Nazism to communism. He survived assassination attempts. It's been this extraordinary life. Is it unimaginable to you that they would at some point, if it came to that, take him off life support?

BARTUNEK: Well, I think we have to realize that those decisions are -- every case is individual. And I don't think it's unimaginable, but I think to think about it too much is really to kind of miss the point. The pope is much more than a CEO. He's a father. He's our father, the father of a spiritual family. And that's we see him.

When he's sick we pray for him. He's always there. And he's an inspiration for us. And I remember just seeing him in so many different occasions in my own journey of the faith, which brought me into the Catholic Church and then towards the priesthood.

It was his -- kind of his joie de vivre, you know, his attitude of, well, you know, we just do the best we can to further the Gospel, to bring the message of Christ to as many people as possible. And we leave the rest up to God.

And I think that when God is ready to take him, he'll know and he'll have that same attitude at the end.

BROWN: And so, I was looking at the pictures from yesterday. And he looked, honestly, so ill, so frail. Does that not pain you to see?

BARTUNEK: Absolutely. When you see someone you love, someone who is really a father, suffering, it pains us. But on the other hand, I mean, it's not a surprise. You know, the message of the Gospel involves suffering. It involves pain. It involves death. In all of our churches we have a crucifix right over the altar. This is part of the story.

For some reason, God didn't want to save us from sin by eliminating suffering. He gives meaning to suffering. And so at the same time that, you know, when I look at him, I feel sorrow and pain to see him suffer so much. At the same time I know that he's giving meaning to that suffering by uniting it to the suffering of Christ, by offering it in union with our lord.

And so even in the midst of that, of his weakness and of his frailty, he continues to be an inspiration. And just makes me want to live my mission in life with that same kind of courage and consistency and coherence.

BROWN: Father Bartunek, good to talk to you, thank you. Very nicely said tonight.

BARTUNEK: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

Catholics in the United States, I think it can be said, have been divided in some respects about Pope John Paul II, perhaps theologically divided. Conservative Catholics have cheered his strict orthodoxy whereas liberal Catholics have sometimes bristled at it. William Donohue is with us tonight from Notre Dame University. He is the eloquent president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. He is not someone you want to get on the wrong side of, I can tell you that.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: It's nice to see you, sir.

WILLIAM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT OF CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Thank you.

BROWN: We talk about liberal Catholics may see the pope theologically one way, and conservative Catholics another. But there is a point, tell me if I'm right here, where it's not really a theological question in how people view the pope, how Catholics view the pope.

DONOHUE: Well, I think that's absolutely true. And, look, I think everybody admires him, for one thing. I mean, he is a man of tremendous courage. We can come together, whether you're on the left or the right, we can come together on a lot of things about this pope.

Where things begin to break down I think is where those people, particularly on the left, expected different kinds of changes. And they think he's been resistant. By the way, there are people on the right, I don't mean the average person who is orthodox, but there are people on the right who are very critical of this pope because they think that he didn't do enough to whip some people into line.

So you know, once you get away from the middle, you do see that he's fair game for a lot of critics.

BROWN: But I think by and large it's fair to say, don't you think, that he has, in his view of doctrine, has been a traditionalist. And it's true that people, particularly American Catholics I think, would have liked him to have liberalized the church, and he didn't do that. But he's certainly been leftist, if you will, in other respects. He's been social activist.

DONOHUE: Well, you know, people keep saying that he's a conservative or whatever. I've got news for you, when he goes, whoever replaces him is not going to make glacial changes. So there's not -- there's only so many changes he can make. I mean, maybe there will be some talk about what they're going to do with the deacons and what they'll do about celibacy, which is a church-imposed discipline.

But the fact of the matter is, on the central teachings of morality, particularly sexuality, and let's face it, that's where a lot of people don't like him on that, I think he's marvelous. I think he's profoundly countercultural because the church is teaching restraint in a world where restraint is regarded as a dirty word.

I don't think you're going to see any major changes in that regard. So I don't know what people say. Look, you know the one teaching he has changed in the Catholic Church? Capital punishment. And what did he do? He moved it in a more liberal direction. He got guys like me, who used to be in favor of capital punishment, to reconsider my position. I'm now opposed to it.

BROWN: Well, see, there you go. You know, we're all learning stuff all the time. Just a couple of quick things if you can, do you think the scandal -- the sex abuse scandal, which hit particularly hard in the United States, and his handling it, hurt his image among Americans generally?

DONOHUE: There's no question about it. I mean, he is at the top. The buck stops at the top. Even though I don't think it's fair to blame him for it, the delinquency in the decision-making and the delinquency in the behavior, the enabling bishops and their molesting priests, that's what angered Catholics here.

Yes, he has to take some responsibility for it. I know he was angry about it. He's the one who summoned the cardinals to Rome about it. But nonetheless, it happened on his watch and he has to bear some responsibility for it. It's a terrible stain on the Catholic Church.

BROWN: Just a final question, this is a bit indelicate, I apologize. But are you starting to get a bad feeling?

DONOHUE: Well, yes and no. Let's face it, we've been living with this now for the last four, five, six weeks. And I've been asked about it. The media have been nothing but respectful. And they're almost afraid to ask me, you know, we've got to ask you about, I know, he's going to pass away. And it kind of exhausts people. We want him to go quietly to the lord. He's a wonderful man.

BROWN: I think that's exactly right. I think Catholics and non- Catholics, people who agree with him on theology and don't, want him to pass comfortably and as easily as one can. It's nice to meet you. I do try to stay on your good side.

(LAUGHTER)

DONOHUE: Any time.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

DONOHUE: Thank you.

BROWN: Bill Donohue for the Catholic League. Still ahead on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT, we talk to a panel of the country's top religion writers about the work that Pope John Paul has done as we keep track of his condition on this night. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Welcome back to a special edition of NEWSNIGHT. The pope, as you no doubt heard, has taken a turn for the worse today. How big a turn is still unclear. The Vatican says he's being treated for a urinary tract infection after experiencing a high fever and a drop in blood pressure. He also received the Sacrament of the Sick, which used to be known as Last Rites. He received that in 1981 after he was shot.

We've assembled a panel of esteemed religious - religion writers tonight. Steve Kloehn traveled around the world with the pope as a religion writer for the "Chicago Tribune" from 1996 to the year 2000. He was on the road a lot.

In Washington, E.J. Dionne, Jr., a professor at Georgetown University, syndicated columnist, covered the pope for the "New York Times" in the mid '80s.

And here in New York, Laurie Goodstein, national religion correspondent for the "New York Times." Good to have you all with us.

Let me start with you, Laurie. What do you think we should think about as we think about him for people who aren't Catholics?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, this is a pope who transcended his own church. This is a global pope who saw on his watch 300 million more people become Catholics. Half the Christians in the world are now Catholics. He traveled everywhere from Fiji to Togo on more than 100 trips around the world and really extended the reach of the church to Catholics all around the world and also asserted the moral force of the church in all kinds of political and moral controversies in countries all around the world.

BROWN: How -- Steve, I saw this pope twice. Once in Fairbanks when he met then President Reagan and once in Havana. And the thing that struck me and I suspect you saw this a lot when you were traveling with him is that he had this incredible capacity to look into a crowd of millions or hundreds of thousands and you'd swear he was looking at you.

STEVE KLOEHN, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Absolutely. And people listened to him. That was the amazing thing. I was on the Cuba trip, as well and here was a group of people that initially had no real knowledge of the man, Catholicism had drifted away from the island and over the days you could see him watch them slowly bring them in until by the end they were genuinely chanting for him. It's amazing.

BROWN: His ride in from the airport -- the ride in from the airport that day from Havana with the tens of thousands of people lining the streets, anyone who wanted to understand what charisma meant got it that day.

KLOEHN: And you know what else is fun is watching him with kids. Adults who come to him come to him for a variety of reasons but kids come to him relatively innocent and he has always surprised those of us in the media, particularly with the draw he had for kids from when he was a young and vibrant man to his last World Youth Day in Canada -- or the last one in Canada in 2002 when kids came by the hundreds of thousands to see him.

BROWN: Well, E.J., let me put this question out and I expect we'll spend much of the rest of the time on it. In the end will he be seen -- this is not his obituary, but it's not -- a reasonable time to talk about his import. Will he be seen as more important for what he has done theologically or what he has done in other respects, the fall of communism, and so on.

E.J. DIONNE, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, I think you're right to ask the question that way. I think there's a dual legacy here. There's a legacy that involved the church and the world and there's a legacy that involves the church itself. I think that this is a paradoxical pope, he likes the phrase -- a book he wrote, it's called, "Sign of Contradiction." And in his world achievements many of them might be described in the broad sense as liberal. The Vatican II back in the 1960s fundamentally changed the church's orientation toward democracy, the church embraced democracy, human rights, religious liberty and in some ways I think it took a conservative pope such as this one really to ratify that.

And when you look at what he did not only to bring down communism in Eastern Europe but to oppose dictatorships everywhere, to support workers' rights, this was a very important part of his legacy. Laurie mentioned that trip to Togo. I actually covered that trip and it was interesting. The dictator invited him to his big house and on the way back, the pope, in an unscheduled stop, just stopped his motorcade to speak to a poor woman on the side of the road and the Vatican folks -- Mr. Navarro-Valls made clear this was a signal to the dictator that he didn't buy the way he ran the country.

On the other side there's the doctrinal part and the church part and that is largely a conservative legacy on the insistence of an all male celibate priesthood, theologically quite conservative and of course his appointments of bishops have largely been conservative. These are two very important legacies. They stand together.

BROWN: Let me get everybody in on this. Laurie, do you agree that it's a kind of bifurcated -- or it's consistent? You see it as consistent?

GOODSTEIN: I do.

BROWN: Because?

GOODSTEIN: Because I think that the political things that we would think of as political acts come out of his view of the value of human life. He took the church's long teaching about valuing the poor from a position of we should give charity to the poor to one that every human life counts and you see this in the culture of life, you see this in the stand against euthanasia, against abortion, and these are -- secular folks might see these as political positions.

BROWN: Mm-hmm.

GOODSTEIN: But for the pope and for this church this is very much spiritual teaching.

BROWN: Steve, let me give you the last word to end the night. Do you see it as of a whole?

KLOEHN: A whole with many, many layers.

BROWN: Yeah.

KLOEHN: And I think you can approach this man form all sides. Whatever interests you, he's probably touched on it at some point and I think we'll be decades or generations or centuries untangling what that means.

BROWN: Appreciate all of you work and all of your help tonight. Thank you.

DIONNE: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Ahead on the program as we head to break, we take a look at a live picture of St. Mary's Cathedral in Sydney, Australia, well into Friday, it's after 2:30 in the afternoon there. Parishioners have been going in and out of the cathedral, no doubt offering prayers for the pope and his health. Someone told me today that half the people on the planet, this is the only pope they've ever known. Think about that as we go to break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Coming up on seven in the morning in Rome. Twice in February the pope was hospitalized in Rome's Gemelli Hospital. Sources there say no provisions have been made for the pope to be readmitted. At the same time, the Vatican does have extensive medical facilities. Delia Gallagher keeps an eye on the Vatican for CNN and she joins us from outside the Vatican now early on a Friday morning there.

This news has gone through the city, I assume, the City of Rome, it's in all the papers. People are waking to it. Is there any sense of crisis or urgency? Do you feel it in the air?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: We feel a sense of urgency, absolutely. A crisis, I wouldn't put it so strongly just yet, Aaron. Much of that was dampened down by the Vatican's positive statement that the pope is responding well to treatment. As you can see, it's dawn now, about seven and a half hours since we first heard the news that the pope has a high fever because of a urinary tract infection, so the Italians will be waking up to the news this morning. But since the papal spokesman's statement about the pope's stabilization, at least a good response to his treatment, I think that things will be rather more calm this morning.

Aaron?

BROWN: I -- There's so much we want to know about his health and we're just going to have to wait some time to find out, I guess. Will the -- people there, people in Rome have been living with the pope's illnesses now almost on a daily basis for a couple of months. Will they come to the Vatican, will they turn out in support and in prayer for the pope, will we see a kind of public display?

GALLAGHER: I think we will, Aaron, in part because we are still in the Easter season. There are lots of tourists who have come to Rome, this is one of the peak times for tourists to come to the Vatican and we've seen it even in this week when the pope was not scheduled to appear, they came nonetheless under his window to call his name, to sing songs.

So I have no doubt that later today we will be seeing that and we will have some more information from the Vatican.

BROWN: Well, we look forward to that. I know you had a very long night. Thank you for your efforts and we'll just get the information as we can. Delia Gallagher in Rome now, coming up on seven in the morning on Friday morning.

John Paul II took advantage of modern air travel to say the least, to become the most widely-traveled pope in history. He visited well over 100 countries. It's hard to find one he did not go to. He has long been admired for his endurance, his travel schedule grueling and people around the world have watched him over the years as he has grown old, become frail, infirm.

In the end, John Paul's failing health has become part of the message. So once again, from Rome, CNN's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VINCI (voice-over): In the early years of his papacy, Pope John Paul II was often called God's athlete because of his love for hiking and skiing. But in the end, old age, arthritis and an only partially successful hip replacement made it difficult for him to move at all.

He was also often referred to as the great communicator for his ability to speak to the masses.

Eventually the symptoms of Parkinson's disease and tracheotomy performed after two consecutive breathing spasms hindered his ability to talk.

Yet the pope refused to be limited by his physical ailments, showing remarkable strength and endurance, like when he left the hospital in early February, only days after being treated for a bad case of the flu.

"Thank you for you patience," he said to a huge crowd during his last trip to Poland in August, 2002, after reading his homily slowly and with a trembling voice.

Two years later a sick man among the sick, reading his homily in the French shrine of Lourdes. The pope, again, mustered all his strength, as short of breath, he muttered, slowly in Polish the words, "Help me," and later said, "I have to finish," when an aid brought him some water.

The pope clearly knows his deteriorating health is making it difficult for him to understand every word he is saying but he also knows he has an important message to deliver. JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: This is a message, that in a world that worships youth that we see here an old man, a man who is struggling against the limits of his own body can still lead, can still make a valuable contribution. Extraordinarily valuable contribution. And I think the pope quite consciously wanted to make that part of his message and in addition I think there is also a theology of suffering here, that the pope has always talked about suffering is not meaningless if it is accepted in the spirit of Christ.

That is, just as Christ suffered on the cross in order to redeem humanity.

VINCI: The pope would often joke about his old age, even making, at times, a rare reference to his death. "Pray for the pope not only when he is living, but also after he dies, he said in Poland." Vatican officials, never happy to discuss even if the pope had the flu, were no longer able to avoid reporters' questions about his health.

JOAQUIN NAVARRO-VALLS, VATICAN SPOKESMAN: I think that he has done something that maybe is difficult but he has done it with extreme naturalness, but it is to incorporate in his mission and in his way of preaching those limitations that for some other old people keep them from doing what they should do.

VINCI: But working with an ailing popes presents Vatican officials with logistical challenges. At every event, at any moment, each step of the way, aids have to be within inches of him without appearing to intrusive. The pope never appears to like the necessary proximity. And though there were times he wanted to show not even an airplane stairway was too big of a challenge for him, more recently, no longer able to stand or move on his own, the pope was being carried around on a wheelchair.

So what is it that draws so much attention around John Paul II's health? Other popes, even in recent times, have been ill in the final years of their lives.

ALLEN: The difference is that wasn't happening in the age of CNN. I mean, this is the first pope who has gotten old before our eyes, day to day, week to week, month to month on TV but I don't think that was by design, obviously, but Karol Wojtyla, John Paul II, is a smart enough man that he realized that was going to happen inevitably and so he decided to, in effect, make it part of his act.

VINCI: An act which has become a terrible burden for the ailing pope.

DR. PIERLUIGI LENZI, NEUROLOGIST: Many patients with this degree of Parkinson's are telling me that, as with a cross of lead they are unable to move because the feel pounds of pounds of weight on that. So this kind of immobilization due to this enormous weight that they are unable to move, it is absolutely painful.

VINCI: Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on the program tonight, we'll go to St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York to see how Catholics in this country, in this city with such a large Catholic population are reacting to the news from the Vatican.

It's a pretty sight tonight, isn't it? We'll take a break first. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Three months ago in his annual Christmas message, Pope John Paul made a rare reference to his age and his physical problems, problems that have only worsened since. So if his illness is not exactly a surprise, and it is not, it is still to many a shock.

CNN's Alina Cho is outside St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City tonight.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, New York City, as you know, has the largest Catholic population of any U.S. city and St. Patrick's Cathedral traditionally, historically has been the place of sort of the center of Catholic life here in the country and it is for that reason that in times like these people tend to flock here. Now that is exactly what happened here tonight. Not large crowds, small ones.

Some people came here to light a candle, others came to say a small prayer, some did a little bit of both. Now, as always, we found that there are more tourists here than New Yorkers. We did happen to run into a group of priests from Pennsylvania and New Jersey who said they always stop by St. Patrick's Cathedral when they are in town and they did so tonight. One priest told me this is the end of an era, certainly, but not the end of the church's mission.

Now, should the pope die, there is a plan in place here at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Immediately following the news there will be a mass followed by a more formal special mass the following day where Edward Cardinal Egan, the Archbishop of New York, will pray for the pope's soul and presumably for the church's future. He will hold a news conference and then he will fly straight away to Rome where he will be part of the cardinals who will elect the next pope.

Aaron?

BROWN: Alina, thank you very much. Down at St. Patrick's. Those pictures were the pope in Central Park in 1995 as memory serves me. When he said mass there.

We'll take a look at morning papers dominated by two stories after the break. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK. Time to check the morning papers from around the country and around the world. By and large, the headlines dominated by the two stories we've talked about all night here on the network, but not totally. I guess the "Washington Post," "Long Legal Battle Over as Schiavo Dies. Florida case expected the factor into laws for end of life rights" is there headline. Just up in the corner because the story -- news happens sometimes, didn't get a whole lot of play. "Doubts on Weapons Were Dismissed." This was the long-awaited intelligence review and in this case the "Washington Post" taking a look at how those people who said there weren't WMD in Iraq were kind of just sent to a closet somewhere.

"The Oregonian," "Schiavo's death brings no peace. Scene at the woman's deathbed apparently marked by further bitterness and acrimony." Who was it, Rodney King, who said, "Can't we all get along?" "Schiavo debate leads an imprint on the nation."

That will be an interesting question, won't it? "Urinary tract infection latest medical crisis for the pope" also on the front page of "The Oregonian."

"Cincinnati Inquirer," a large Catholic population in that city. "Pope stable after day of setbacks. Fever follows infection, plummeting blood pressure." "Schiavo slips away, end-of-life battle rages." That's the truth.

"San Antonio Express," death of Schiavo leaves a nation torn," their lead story. "An ailing pontiff struck with high fever up at the top.

Boston, with a very large Catholic population, "Prayers for Pope" in the "Boston Herald" and up top here if you can get that, Ed, "Mitt can't stop it: Stem cell bill passes." A story we did on the program, a battle between the governor and the state legislature over what will be allowable.

"Newsday" out on Long Island here in New York, "What her life and death taught us, Goodbye, Terri." That is a very pretty picture of someone who has dominated the headlines.

The weather in Chicago tomorrow splotchy, sorry to say. We'll wrap up this unusual night in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow. Good night.

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Aired March 31, 2005 - 23:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone. The health of Pope John Paul II, as you may know, has taken another turn for the worst today. How big a turn is still unclear. The questions outnumber the answers tonight. But this much we know. The Vatican says the pontiff is being treated with antibiotics for a high fever caused by a urinary tract infection. CNN's Rome bureau chief, Alessio Vinci, starts us off tonight.
We have a little more information now, don't we?

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: That is correct, Aaron. Information that came to us last night here in Rome, and that is that the pope has been diagnosed with a high fever, first of all, and that it was treated with antibiotics. That high fever given to him because of a urinary tract infection.

The Vatican officials last night, before going to sleep, told us that the pope is responding well to treatment and that nevertheless, however, his condition remains serious. So much in fact that one Vatican official is telling us that the pope has received what is known as last rites or the sacrament of the sick, which is a blessing. That does not necessarily that the pope is in an imminent death situation. It is a blessing that can also be performed on patients who are very sick. And this appears to be the case with the pope.

It is not the first time this blessing was given to the pope. Actually back in 1981, when he was shot in St. Peter's Square, the pope received that same kind of blessing. As you know, of course, the pope survived that attack.

And finally, Aaron, the medical sources here in Rome are telling us that at this time there are no provisions to take the pope back to the Gemelli Hospital where he has spent several weeks in the past few months. This, of course, can be interpreted in two ways. Either the Vatican doctors are confident that they can deal with this situation at the Vatican with the equipment that they have there. And it is indeed top of the line equipment to deal with the pope. Or that perhaps the pope is so sick, so frail, that basically it is too dangerous to take him to the Gemelli Hospital.

But the situation at this time remains, again, extremely serious. Back to you, Aaron.

BROWN: But at what point in the day, if we know, do we expect to get the next medical bulletin, if that's the right way to frame it? VINCI: Well, we do know that the Vatican press office opens at 9 a.m. local time. That's about three hours from now. We do expect I believe later on, perhaps, a bulletin or medical update from Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who is the Vatican spokesman, himself a physician. We do expect some kind of an update from the pope from the Vatican.

Of course, this, as you can imagine, Aaron, in the last few hours, the world's media descended on Rome and all of us are craving for more information and the Vatican will have to give us something about the pope later on today.

BROWN: Yes, we are. Alessio, thank you. Alessio Vinci in Rome where it's 6:00 in the morning, a little past that. By any stretch it's been a tough week for Pope John Paul II, unable to speak on Easter Sunday to the crowds gathered at St. Peter's. Unable to speak yesterday as well during his weekly general audience, looking very, very ill and frail yesterday.

The Vatican announcing that he had been given a feeding tube inserted in his nose to help provide nutrition as he recovers from a tracheotomy, and now this additional setback. We're joined now by CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and here in New York, Dr. Simon Hall, who is the chairman of the Department of Urology at Mt. Sinai School of Medicine.

So Dr. Hall, let me turn to you. Urinary tract infection, unusual in a Parkinson's patient who has gone through what the pope has gone through in the last couple of months?

DR. SIMON HALL, MT. SINAI SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: No, I think it's not unusual. We know that Parkinson's patients can have bladder dysfunction. They may not empty their bladder particularly well. He's also elderly. He probably had some prostate problems on top of that, which can worsen. And he's been debilitated for some time. We don't know, perhaps he's even had a catheter draining his bladder already, which could either be the cause of this infection or he needed a catheter as he wasn't emptying very well and now has gotten -- had an infection.

BROWN: Sanjay, it's sort of axiomatic and it may also be true that hospitals are dangerous places, at least where infection is concerned. It's a place you can pick up infections, do you agree with that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And some of the most dangerous bacteria actually are in hospitals because that's where a lot of antibiotics are used. So the bacteria that survive are particularly bad ones, Aaron.

BROWN: The blood pressure question. What causes the blood pressure to drop?

GUPTA: Yes, that's a concerning point. What could possibly cause the blood pressure to drop is if this infection was particularly a bad infection. We've heard that it's isolated to urinary tract as we just talked about. But if it had gotten into the bloodstream for example, that could cause some problems with his blood pressure. We don't know that for sure, but that's one of the first things that pop into mind as a doctor.

BROWN: Dr. Hall, I'm curious about the first things that pop into your mind as a urologist here. Is the concern that it is a urinary tract infection or is it a concern that somewhere in the pope's system, anywhere in the pope's system, he has a serious infection that they're having to aggressively treat? Is that the problem?

HALL: Well, I think certainly the fact that he has a high fever and perhaps there are some issues with his blood pressure would be more than just a simple bladder infection, that this sounds more like there perhaps are either bacteria or the toxins from bacteria in his bloodstream.

BROWN: And tell me what that means medically.

HALL: So we'd call that sepsis, that perhaps he has what we call urosepsis, which would mean that he has bacteria in the blood that originated in the urinary tract. And part of the reaction to body is that you may have a low blood pressure. You may have trouble keeping a good blood pressure. And that worst case that somebody may have problems oxygenating. They may have changes in mental status. And in worst case...

BROWN: Tell me what oxygenating means.

HALL: So that they may not be able to get enough oxygen to their tissues, to their heart, to the vital organs to the brain. And they may not -- in order to make up for that, they'll have to breathe very rapidly, and we already know the pope had some issues with that already.

BROWN: I suspect -- what I'm trying to delicately ask, and what in the end people really want to know, is how dangerous a situation is this? Is the pope's life threatened?

HALL: Well, I don't know. I don't know if I would say I have enough information to say...

BROWN: Fair enough.

HALL: ... but certainly we know he's been ill for some time. He's, I'm sure, quite debilitated since he needed to have a feeding tube for nutrition, and now on top of it has -- certainly sounds more than just a routine bladder infection, that he's quite ill. And it's unclear whether he would be critically ill or just seriously ill, whether he needs to be on medication to keep his blood pressure where we would like it, and whether or not he needs to be on a ventilator so he can -- to breathe for him.

So we don't know that right now. So I think that certainly someone goes on antibiotics. We know that usually someone will react well and within about 24 hours. But sometimes the insult may be too much. That even with the correct antibiotics, the body is unable to recover from the insult from having bacteria in the blood. Time will tell.

BROWN: Sanjay, give you the last word. You want to give a second opinion on this?

GUPTA: No. I agree with that. A couple of months now, though, we've been talking about the pope. He was hospitalized for 10 days in the beginning of February. Then he got this tracheotomy. Then he got a feeding tube. Then he had a high fever now. They think it's isolated to urinary tract.

If you weren't describing the pope and you talked about any man in his 80s with these significant medical problems who's now had this sequence over the last couple of months, it'd be very concerning, I think, to any doctor who's been following this case. So I'm concerned, as I think many doctors are and many people are tonight.

BROWN: I was going to say, I think all of us, whether Catholics, non-Catholics, medical people, non-medical people, people who are aware of the pope's impact on the planet over the last 25 years are concerned. Gentlemen, thank you both, appreciate it.

This latest setback for the pope comes on the heels of two hospitalizations, as we mentioned, since February, both respiratory problems which have greatly diminished his public presence. He seems to have aged dramatically since the first of the year. The 84-year- old pontiff, he'll be 85 in about six weeks, has pulled through many health crises, but it's clear that each new one takes a toll. We're joined from the Vatican now by CNN Vatican analyst John Allen.

John, it's good to see you. Obviously there is -- even before today, there was in the Vatican great concern about the pope's health. Can you tell if there is under way, as indelicate as this must seem, planning for his eventual death?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, Aaron, I think the clear answer to that question is yes. Not in the sense that Vatican officials have any reason to believe that that's imminent, and we need to stress that. That while the situation has been properly described as one of grave concern, there is no sense at the moment that anything is imminent.

But clearly Vatican officials have for some time known that this moment may come and it may come sooner rather than later. And so the series of events that would be triggered by the pope's death are already well-choreographed here. Vatican radio has plans in place to begin playing funeral music, when that moment comes, for example.

The pope's Office of Liturgical Ceremonies has its sort of ducks in a row to begin the highly elaborate series of rituals that would be played. And obviously I think it's also fair to say that in the privacies of their own consciences, the cardinals themselves, those 117, as of today, cardinals who are under 80 and therefore would be eligible to vote in a papal election obviously have been preparing themselves for what they're going to have to think about and the challenges they're going to be facing when that moment comes.

BROWN: John, to the extent that there are day to day responsibilities for the pope, who has been doing them?

ALLEN: Well, that's a great question, Aaron. I think -- the truth is this: Everyone who has been in to the pope during this period comes out emphasizing that he remains fully lucid, fully aware of what's going on, able to absorb information and make decisions.

So I think the truth is that when these decisions are made, and since the first of March, the pope has, for example, appointed 29 bishops, I think we all have to assume that he is at the end of that process saying either yes or no to those appointments.

The other truth is that 99.5 percent of the work in preparing that appointment in making the decision is being done by others. And I think there is, by universal agreement, the four most significant others in the Vatican today, would be: his private secretary, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz; Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who runs the Congregation for the Faith, that's the Vatican's doctrinal office; Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who is sort of the Vatican's top diplomat; and Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, who runs the Congregation for Bishops. Certainly between them, those four men are carrying a lot of the weight today that ordinarily would rest squarely on the pope's own soldiers.

BROWN: John, as always, you know your stuff. Good to have you with us tonight. Thank you, John Allen who is in Rome.

Vatican officials could someday soon be facing the kind of terrible medical decisions that so many families face every day and that seem to have dominated the national conversation for a long time around here, what steps should be taken, should his life be prolonged by extraordinary measures? And just what constitutes extraordinary these days? And of course, what may be the most central question: What does the pope himself want?

From Rome, here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a number of different ways, senior churchmen are now laying the groundwork for papal medical treatment which could prolong the pope's long-term on respirators, feeding tubes, and fluid drips.

For instance, in an interview with CNN, Cardinal Jorge Medina said using extraordinary means to keep a person alive depends on the person's role in society. And besides, he added, artificial respiration is no longer considered an extraordinary means.

And the pope himself, in little-noticed remarks last year to a congress, called Life Sustaining Treatments in the Vegetative State, wrote this: "The administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural means of preserving life. Its use should be considered morally obligatory until it's seemed to have attained its proper finality."

From that, churchmen have concluded the pope's will is to be kept alive even if he cannot breathe or eat or swallow. A Parkinson's specialist who has treated the pope says John Paul could survive for some time.

DR. FABRIZIO STOCCHI, PARKINSON'S DISEASE SPECIALIST: Some people live for ages in that situation if you think about prolonged coma because of a trauma or other things like that. They can live for years. Of course, the pope is old, and that could be a problem. And plus we have to bear in mind that a critical patient under that condition can actually easily get infections. And that might be a very important risk.

BITTERMANN: Dr. Stocchi says the pope's survival will ultimately depend on the strength of his heart, which he believes has been under increased strain as John Paul's breathing problems have worsened.

STOCCHI: The most important factor in the pope's situation today is actually the posture. The neck is bended and actually on the chest. And these lead the head to be positioned forward. And in this position, actually the breathing is not easy.

BITTERMANN: Medical and church sources say that while the pope has been away at the hospital, his apartments have been equipped with all he might need in the way of artificial breathing and feeding equipment. But Catholic moral theologians who deal with long-term care for the dying, say the most difficult issue is not whether to start artificial treatment, but when to stop it.

FATHER BRIAN JOHNSTONE, MORAL THEOLOGIAN: The basic question is whether the means of treatment are actually treating the patient, doing some good, or whether those means of treatment are only making things worse.

BITTERMANN: Church moralists like Father Johnstone advise Catholics all the time about the difficult choices involved in the care of dying loved ones. But it's clear that the pope's condition is leading to new examination of church values.

JOHNSTONE: If the pope continued to live and was being maintained by a respirator, say, for a long time, could you reach the point where it could be morally justified to stop? Well, for the reasons that I have already explained, the answer could be yes, but there could other factors in the issue concerning the pope's particular immense responsibilities which might add another item that would have to be weighed.

BITTERMANN: But who could possibly weigh such a question in the case of the supreme pontiff?

(on camera): Father Johnstone says if a person is unable to decide for himself how long artificial care should continue, it's generally left up to his family. But in this case, he added, only the pope can decide. Leaving open the question of what would happen if the pope were to slip into a coma. (voice-over): The answer is clear for those here who, like the pope, suffer from Parkinson's. Ricardo Farina (ph), who is younger than John Paul, but who has had the disease just as long, believes those around the pope should never give up, even if he's at death's door.

"Hope is the last thing to die," he says, "anyone who is sick thinks that way. If you believe in God, you only have to wait for the decision of God."

While the church fathers are not facing any life and death dilemmas just yet, with the pope now breathing through a tube and barely able to speak, it's become apparent they may be soon.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT, how Catholics around the world are responding to this latest serious health crisis for the pope, and how John Paul II has changed the papacy forever. A break first, from New York, this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Vatican on an early Friday morning, the first day of April in Rome. What's going on behind those walls and those lights, we can't be precisely sure, but we do know the pope is quite sick.

We turn next -- the news of this latest crisis has moved quickly in this world and has Catholics and I daresay non-Catholics around the world concerned the pope -- this pope in particular, has had enormous influence on world events. We turn to Oakbrook, Illinois, where Father John Bartunek joins us. He lives in Rome. He studied for an advanced degree in moral theology. He met the pope as a seminary student. He served Mass with him. And he is the author of "Inside the Passion." We're pleased to have him with us.

The pope -- this is a non-Catholic's perspective, if you will, the pope has spent much of his time talking to us all about how to live. I wonder if in this phase of his life, and I hope it goes on for a long time, he's also teaching us some lessons in how to die.

FATHER JOHN BARTUNEK, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE PASSION": Oh yes, absolutely. I think that the same theme applies to both, the theme that he started his papacy, which has been an inspiration I know for myself and for many of my brother seminarians when we were in the seminary and my fellow priests now; his theme of "do not be afraid."

He has lived a life of courage. And he is expressing that same courage in the way that he is continuing to carry out his mission even from the cross where he finds himself. And he has been dealing with these issues without fear, with courage, humility. And I think that's a lesson for all of us. It's an inspiration for all of us. BROWN: I mean, he has almost literally since childhood gone through almost every major event of import in his lifetime, from Nazism to communism. He survived assassination attempts. It's been this extraordinary life. Is it unimaginable to you that they would at some point, if it came to that, take him off life support?

BARTUNEK: Well, I think we have to realize that those decisions are -- every case is individual. And I don't think it's unimaginable, but I think to think about it too much is really to kind of miss the point. The pope is much more than a CEO. He's a father. He's our father, the father of a spiritual family. And that's we see him.

When he's sick we pray for him. He's always there. And he's an inspiration for us. And I remember just seeing him in so many different occasions in my own journey of the faith, which brought me into the Catholic Church and then towards the priesthood.

It was his -- kind of his joie de vivre, you know, his attitude of, well, you know, we just do the best we can to further the Gospel, to bring the message of Christ to as many people as possible. And we leave the rest up to God.

And I think that when God is ready to take him, he'll know and he'll have that same attitude at the end.

BROWN: And so, I was looking at the pictures from yesterday. And he looked, honestly, so ill, so frail. Does that not pain you to see?

BARTUNEK: Absolutely. When you see someone you love, someone who is really a father, suffering, it pains us. But on the other hand, I mean, it's not a surprise. You know, the message of the Gospel involves suffering. It involves pain. It involves death. In all of our churches we have a crucifix right over the altar. This is part of the story.

For some reason, God didn't want to save us from sin by eliminating suffering. He gives meaning to suffering. And so at the same time that, you know, when I look at him, I feel sorrow and pain to see him suffer so much. At the same time I know that he's giving meaning to that suffering by uniting it to the suffering of Christ, by offering it in union with our lord.

And so even in the midst of that, of his weakness and of his frailty, he continues to be an inspiration. And just makes me want to live my mission in life with that same kind of courage and consistency and coherence.

BROWN: Father Bartunek, good to talk to you, thank you. Very nicely said tonight.

BARTUNEK: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

Catholics in the United States, I think it can be said, have been divided in some respects about Pope John Paul II, perhaps theologically divided. Conservative Catholics have cheered his strict orthodoxy whereas liberal Catholics have sometimes bristled at it. William Donohue is with us tonight from Notre Dame University. He is the eloquent president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. He is not someone you want to get on the wrong side of, I can tell you that.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: It's nice to see you, sir.

WILLIAM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT OF CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Thank you.

BROWN: We talk about liberal Catholics may see the pope theologically one way, and conservative Catholics another. But there is a point, tell me if I'm right here, where it's not really a theological question in how people view the pope, how Catholics view the pope.

DONOHUE: Well, I think that's absolutely true. And, look, I think everybody admires him, for one thing. I mean, he is a man of tremendous courage. We can come together, whether you're on the left or the right, we can come together on a lot of things about this pope.

Where things begin to break down I think is where those people, particularly on the left, expected different kinds of changes. And they think he's been resistant. By the way, there are people on the right, I don't mean the average person who is orthodox, but there are people on the right who are very critical of this pope because they think that he didn't do enough to whip some people into line.

So you know, once you get away from the middle, you do see that he's fair game for a lot of critics.

BROWN: But I think by and large it's fair to say, don't you think, that he has, in his view of doctrine, has been a traditionalist. And it's true that people, particularly American Catholics I think, would have liked him to have liberalized the church, and he didn't do that. But he's certainly been leftist, if you will, in other respects. He's been social activist.

DONOHUE: Well, you know, people keep saying that he's a conservative or whatever. I've got news for you, when he goes, whoever replaces him is not going to make glacial changes. So there's not -- there's only so many changes he can make. I mean, maybe there will be some talk about what they're going to do with the deacons and what they'll do about celibacy, which is a church-imposed discipline.

But the fact of the matter is, on the central teachings of morality, particularly sexuality, and let's face it, that's where a lot of people don't like him on that, I think he's marvelous. I think he's profoundly countercultural because the church is teaching restraint in a world where restraint is regarded as a dirty word.

I don't think you're going to see any major changes in that regard. So I don't know what people say. Look, you know the one teaching he has changed in the Catholic Church? Capital punishment. And what did he do? He moved it in a more liberal direction. He got guys like me, who used to be in favor of capital punishment, to reconsider my position. I'm now opposed to it.

BROWN: Well, see, there you go. You know, we're all learning stuff all the time. Just a couple of quick things if you can, do you think the scandal -- the sex abuse scandal, which hit particularly hard in the United States, and his handling it, hurt his image among Americans generally?

DONOHUE: There's no question about it. I mean, he is at the top. The buck stops at the top. Even though I don't think it's fair to blame him for it, the delinquency in the decision-making and the delinquency in the behavior, the enabling bishops and their molesting priests, that's what angered Catholics here.

Yes, he has to take some responsibility for it. I know he was angry about it. He's the one who summoned the cardinals to Rome about it. But nonetheless, it happened on his watch and he has to bear some responsibility for it. It's a terrible stain on the Catholic Church.

BROWN: Just a final question, this is a bit indelicate, I apologize. But are you starting to get a bad feeling?

DONOHUE: Well, yes and no. Let's face it, we've been living with this now for the last four, five, six weeks. And I've been asked about it. The media have been nothing but respectful. And they're almost afraid to ask me, you know, we've got to ask you about, I know, he's going to pass away. And it kind of exhausts people. We want him to go quietly to the lord. He's a wonderful man.

BROWN: I think that's exactly right. I think Catholics and non- Catholics, people who agree with him on theology and don't, want him to pass comfortably and as easily as one can. It's nice to meet you. I do try to stay on your good side.

(LAUGHTER)

DONOHUE: Any time.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

DONOHUE: Thank you.

BROWN: Bill Donohue for the Catholic League. Still ahead on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT, we talk to a panel of the country's top religion writers about the work that Pope John Paul has done as we keep track of his condition on this night. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Welcome back to a special edition of NEWSNIGHT. The pope, as you no doubt heard, has taken a turn for the worse today. How big a turn is still unclear. The Vatican says he's being treated for a urinary tract infection after experiencing a high fever and a drop in blood pressure. He also received the Sacrament of the Sick, which used to be known as Last Rites. He received that in 1981 after he was shot.

We've assembled a panel of esteemed religious - religion writers tonight. Steve Kloehn traveled around the world with the pope as a religion writer for the "Chicago Tribune" from 1996 to the year 2000. He was on the road a lot.

In Washington, E.J. Dionne, Jr., a professor at Georgetown University, syndicated columnist, covered the pope for the "New York Times" in the mid '80s.

And here in New York, Laurie Goodstein, national religion correspondent for the "New York Times." Good to have you all with us.

Let me start with you, Laurie. What do you think we should think about as we think about him for people who aren't Catholics?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, this is a pope who transcended his own church. This is a global pope who saw on his watch 300 million more people become Catholics. Half the Christians in the world are now Catholics. He traveled everywhere from Fiji to Togo on more than 100 trips around the world and really extended the reach of the church to Catholics all around the world and also asserted the moral force of the church in all kinds of political and moral controversies in countries all around the world.

BROWN: How -- Steve, I saw this pope twice. Once in Fairbanks when he met then President Reagan and once in Havana. And the thing that struck me and I suspect you saw this a lot when you were traveling with him is that he had this incredible capacity to look into a crowd of millions or hundreds of thousands and you'd swear he was looking at you.

STEVE KLOEHN, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Absolutely. And people listened to him. That was the amazing thing. I was on the Cuba trip, as well and here was a group of people that initially had no real knowledge of the man, Catholicism had drifted away from the island and over the days you could see him watch them slowly bring them in until by the end they were genuinely chanting for him. It's amazing.

BROWN: His ride in from the airport -- the ride in from the airport that day from Havana with the tens of thousands of people lining the streets, anyone who wanted to understand what charisma meant got it that day.

KLOEHN: And you know what else is fun is watching him with kids. Adults who come to him come to him for a variety of reasons but kids come to him relatively innocent and he has always surprised those of us in the media, particularly with the draw he had for kids from when he was a young and vibrant man to his last World Youth Day in Canada -- or the last one in Canada in 2002 when kids came by the hundreds of thousands to see him.

BROWN: Well, E.J., let me put this question out and I expect we'll spend much of the rest of the time on it. In the end will he be seen -- this is not his obituary, but it's not -- a reasonable time to talk about his import. Will he be seen as more important for what he has done theologically or what he has done in other respects, the fall of communism, and so on.

E.J. DIONNE, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, I think you're right to ask the question that way. I think there's a dual legacy here. There's a legacy that involved the church and the world and there's a legacy that involves the church itself. I think that this is a paradoxical pope, he likes the phrase -- a book he wrote, it's called, "Sign of Contradiction." And in his world achievements many of them might be described in the broad sense as liberal. The Vatican II back in the 1960s fundamentally changed the church's orientation toward democracy, the church embraced democracy, human rights, religious liberty and in some ways I think it took a conservative pope such as this one really to ratify that.

And when you look at what he did not only to bring down communism in Eastern Europe but to oppose dictatorships everywhere, to support workers' rights, this was a very important part of his legacy. Laurie mentioned that trip to Togo. I actually covered that trip and it was interesting. The dictator invited him to his big house and on the way back, the pope, in an unscheduled stop, just stopped his motorcade to speak to a poor woman on the side of the road and the Vatican folks -- Mr. Navarro-Valls made clear this was a signal to the dictator that he didn't buy the way he ran the country.

On the other side there's the doctrinal part and the church part and that is largely a conservative legacy on the insistence of an all male celibate priesthood, theologically quite conservative and of course his appointments of bishops have largely been conservative. These are two very important legacies. They stand together.

BROWN: Let me get everybody in on this. Laurie, do you agree that it's a kind of bifurcated -- or it's consistent? You see it as consistent?

GOODSTEIN: I do.

BROWN: Because?

GOODSTEIN: Because I think that the political things that we would think of as political acts come out of his view of the value of human life. He took the church's long teaching about valuing the poor from a position of we should give charity to the poor to one that every human life counts and you see this in the culture of life, you see this in the stand against euthanasia, against abortion, and these are -- secular folks might see these as political positions.

BROWN: Mm-hmm.

GOODSTEIN: But for the pope and for this church this is very much spiritual teaching.

BROWN: Steve, let me give you the last word to end the night. Do you see it as of a whole?

KLOEHN: A whole with many, many layers.

BROWN: Yeah.

KLOEHN: And I think you can approach this man form all sides. Whatever interests you, he's probably touched on it at some point and I think we'll be decades or generations or centuries untangling what that means.

BROWN: Appreciate all of you work and all of your help tonight. Thank you.

DIONNE: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Ahead on the program as we head to break, we take a look at a live picture of St. Mary's Cathedral in Sydney, Australia, well into Friday, it's after 2:30 in the afternoon there. Parishioners have been going in and out of the cathedral, no doubt offering prayers for the pope and his health. Someone told me today that half the people on the planet, this is the only pope they've ever known. Think about that as we go to break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Coming up on seven in the morning in Rome. Twice in February the pope was hospitalized in Rome's Gemelli Hospital. Sources there say no provisions have been made for the pope to be readmitted. At the same time, the Vatican does have extensive medical facilities. Delia Gallagher keeps an eye on the Vatican for CNN and she joins us from outside the Vatican now early on a Friday morning there.

This news has gone through the city, I assume, the City of Rome, it's in all the papers. People are waking to it. Is there any sense of crisis or urgency? Do you feel it in the air?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: We feel a sense of urgency, absolutely. A crisis, I wouldn't put it so strongly just yet, Aaron. Much of that was dampened down by the Vatican's positive statement that the pope is responding well to treatment. As you can see, it's dawn now, about seven and a half hours since we first heard the news that the pope has a high fever because of a urinary tract infection, so the Italians will be waking up to the news this morning. But since the papal spokesman's statement about the pope's stabilization, at least a good response to his treatment, I think that things will be rather more calm this morning.

Aaron?

BROWN: I -- There's so much we want to know about his health and we're just going to have to wait some time to find out, I guess. Will the -- people there, people in Rome have been living with the pope's illnesses now almost on a daily basis for a couple of months. Will they come to the Vatican, will they turn out in support and in prayer for the pope, will we see a kind of public display?

GALLAGHER: I think we will, Aaron, in part because we are still in the Easter season. There are lots of tourists who have come to Rome, this is one of the peak times for tourists to come to the Vatican and we've seen it even in this week when the pope was not scheduled to appear, they came nonetheless under his window to call his name, to sing songs.

So I have no doubt that later today we will be seeing that and we will have some more information from the Vatican.

BROWN: Well, we look forward to that. I know you had a very long night. Thank you for your efforts and we'll just get the information as we can. Delia Gallagher in Rome now, coming up on seven in the morning on Friday morning.

John Paul II took advantage of modern air travel to say the least, to become the most widely-traveled pope in history. He visited well over 100 countries. It's hard to find one he did not go to. He has long been admired for his endurance, his travel schedule grueling and people around the world have watched him over the years as he has grown old, become frail, infirm.

In the end, John Paul's failing health has become part of the message. So once again, from Rome, CNN's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VINCI (voice-over): In the early years of his papacy, Pope John Paul II was often called God's athlete because of his love for hiking and skiing. But in the end, old age, arthritis and an only partially successful hip replacement made it difficult for him to move at all.

He was also often referred to as the great communicator for his ability to speak to the masses.

Eventually the symptoms of Parkinson's disease and tracheotomy performed after two consecutive breathing spasms hindered his ability to talk.

Yet the pope refused to be limited by his physical ailments, showing remarkable strength and endurance, like when he left the hospital in early February, only days after being treated for a bad case of the flu.

"Thank you for you patience," he said to a huge crowd during his last trip to Poland in August, 2002, after reading his homily slowly and with a trembling voice.

Two years later a sick man among the sick, reading his homily in the French shrine of Lourdes. The pope, again, mustered all his strength, as short of breath, he muttered, slowly in Polish the words, "Help me," and later said, "I have to finish," when an aid brought him some water.

The pope clearly knows his deteriorating health is making it difficult for him to understand every word he is saying but he also knows he has an important message to deliver. JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: This is a message, that in a world that worships youth that we see here an old man, a man who is struggling against the limits of his own body can still lead, can still make a valuable contribution. Extraordinarily valuable contribution. And I think the pope quite consciously wanted to make that part of his message and in addition I think there is also a theology of suffering here, that the pope has always talked about suffering is not meaningless if it is accepted in the spirit of Christ.

That is, just as Christ suffered on the cross in order to redeem humanity.

VINCI: The pope would often joke about his old age, even making, at times, a rare reference to his death. "Pray for the pope not only when he is living, but also after he dies, he said in Poland." Vatican officials, never happy to discuss even if the pope had the flu, were no longer able to avoid reporters' questions about his health.

JOAQUIN NAVARRO-VALLS, VATICAN SPOKESMAN: I think that he has done something that maybe is difficult but he has done it with extreme naturalness, but it is to incorporate in his mission and in his way of preaching those limitations that for some other old people keep them from doing what they should do.

VINCI: But working with an ailing popes presents Vatican officials with logistical challenges. At every event, at any moment, each step of the way, aids have to be within inches of him without appearing to intrusive. The pope never appears to like the necessary proximity. And though there were times he wanted to show not even an airplane stairway was too big of a challenge for him, more recently, no longer able to stand or move on his own, the pope was being carried around on a wheelchair.

So what is it that draws so much attention around John Paul II's health? Other popes, even in recent times, have been ill in the final years of their lives.

ALLEN: The difference is that wasn't happening in the age of CNN. I mean, this is the first pope who has gotten old before our eyes, day to day, week to week, month to month on TV but I don't think that was by design, obviously, but Karol Wojtyla, John Paul II, is a smart enough man that he realized that was going to happen inevitably and so he decided to, in effect, make it part of his act.

VINCI: An act which has become a terrible burden for the ailing pope.

DR. PIERLUIGI LENZI, NEUROLOGIST: Many patients with this degree of Parkinson's are telling me that, as with a cross of lead they are unable to move because the feel pounds of pounds of weight on that. So this kind of immobilization due to this enormous weight that they are unable to move, it is absolutely painful.

VINCI: Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on the program tonight, we'll go to St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York to see how Catholics in this country, in this city with such a large Catholic population are reacting to the news from the Vatican.

It's a pretty sight tonight, isn't it? We'll take a break first. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Three months ago in his annual Christmas message, Pope John Paul made a rare reference to his age and his physical problems, problems that have only worsened since. So if his illness is not exactly a surprise, and it is not, it is still to many a shock.

CNN's Alina Cho is outside St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City tonight.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, New York City, as you know, has the largest Catholic population of any U.S. city and St. Patrick's Cathedral traditionally, historically has been the place of sort of the center of Catholic life here in the country and it is for that reason that in times like these people tend to flock here. Now that is exactly what happened here tonight. Not large crowds, small ones.

Some people came here to light a candle, others came to say a small prayer, some did a little bit of both. Now, as always, we found that there are more tourists here than New Yorkers. We did happen to run into a group of priests from Pennsylvania and New Jersey who said they always stop by St. Patrick's Cathedral when they are in town and they did so tonight. One priest told me this is the end of an era, certainly, but not the end of the church's mission.

Now, should the pope die, there is a plan in place here at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Immediately following the news there will be a mass followed by a more formal special mass the following day where Edward Cardinal Egan, the Archbishop of New York, will pray for the pope's soul and presumably for the church's future. He will hold a news conference and then he will fly straight away to Rome where he will be part of the cardinals who will elect the next pope.

Aaron?

BROWN: Alina, thank you very much. Down at St. Patrick's. Those pictures were the pope in Central Park in 1995 as memory serves me. When he said mass there.

We'll take a look at morning papers dominated by two stories after the break. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK. Time to check the morning papers from around the country and around the world. By and large, the headlines dominated by the two stories we've talked about all night here on the network, but not totally. I guess the "Washington Post," "Long Legal Battle Over as Schiavo Dies. Florida case expected the factor into laws for end of life rights" is there headline. Just up in the corner because the story -- news happens sometimes, didn't get a whole lot of play. "Doubts on Weapons Were Dismissed." This was the long-awaited intelligence review and in this case the "Washington Post" taking a look at how those people who said there weren't WMD in Iraq were kind of just sent to a closet somewhere.

"The Oregonian," "Schiavo's death brings no peace. Scene at the woman's deathbed apparently marked by further bitterness and acrimony." Who was it, Rodney King, who said, "Can't we all get along?" "Schiavo debate leads an imprint on the nation."

That will be an interesting question, won't it? "Urinary tract infection latest medical crisis for the pope" also on the front page of "The Oregonian."

"Cincinnati Inquirer," a large Catholic population in that city. "Pope stable after day of setbacks. Fever follows infection, plummeting blood pressure." "Schiavo slips away, end-of-life battle rages." That's the truth.

"San Antonio Express," death of Schiavo leaves a nation torn," their lead story. "An ailing pontiff struck with high fever up at the top.

Boston, with a very large Catholic population, "Prayers for Pope" in the "Boston Herald" and up top here if you can get that, Ed, "Mitt can't stop it: Stem cell bill passes." A story we did on the program, a battle between the governor and the state legislature over what will be allowable.

"Newsday" out on Long Island here in New York, "What her life and death taught us, Goodbye, Terri." That is a very pretty picture of someone who has dominated the headlines.

The weather in Chicago tomorrow splotchy, sorry to say. We'll wrap up this unusual night in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow. Good night.

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