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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Pope Near Death

Aired April 01, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. Welcome. Thank you so much for being with us. As Larry mentioned, Aaron is on his way to Rome right now where Pope John Paul II is by al accounts from the Vatican close to the end of his life. Now, this was the scene for much of the day and evening at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City where tens of thousands of people gathered to pray and say their good- byes to the pope. The last communication from the Vatican came more than eight hours ago.
It is now early Saturday in Rome. That's where we find Christiane Amanpour standing by. Christiane, have you heard anything new from any of the officials of the Vatican?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, and we don't expect to. In fact, we've been told that the Vatican Press Agency, which has been up and functioning al evening, although not delivering any news, is going to be closed for a short period between about 6:30 a.m -- or rather 6:00 and 9:00 a.m., that's in about an hour for about three hours. So we don't, at this point, expect any further news. And the crowds that have gathered so, so greatly in Vatican Square overnight and after midnight have now dwindled. But before, just a couple of hours ago, people were here in strength to pay their last respects to the pope.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Throughout the night the crowds grew steadily in St. Peter's Square. They came to say good-bye to a man they called "Holy Father." Even as the light still shined from Pope John Paul's private apartment, the people here prayed for his soul to rest in eternal peace. A special rosary was recited earlier in the evening, and even the vicar of Vatican City signaled the end is near.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is what we need to do tonight, to gather around the sacred father. In this square, October 1978, with his young voice he cried out "Open, burst your doors open to Christ." Tonight Christ opens his doors to John Paul II.

AMANPOUR: The last formal medical bulletin from the Vatican came around 7:00 p.m. local time saying the pope's breathing is shallow, his blood pressure unstable and his organs gradually failing. Hungry for any information, journalists took the statements away to broadcast and print to the world. At one point the Italian press reporting the pope had already died. The Vatican quickly denied it but continues to prepare the faithful for his passing. CARDINAL RUINI, VICAR OF ROME (through translator): John Paul II is facing the most difficult test of his long and extraordinary life.

AMANPOUR: The last time the pope was seen in public mid week, he was visibly anguished and frustrated by his inability to communicate. His embrace of people all over the world had been a hallmark of his 26-year papacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (on camera): The longest-serving pope ever, the one who had made more visits and travels internationally, who had created such a huge figure on the international stage, a figure of great moral stature and charisma now lies dying. Certainly the people here who have flocked to this square for the last 24 hours believe that and they have come, as I say, to say good-bye.

Behind me, you can't see it, behind me, though, there are pillars leading up to St. Peter's square, and right now workers are putting up loud speakers on those pillars. We expect that to be for any announcement that might be coming, for the funeral, all the observances that will take place in the immediate aftermath of John Paul II's death.

ZAHN: And Christiane, as we continue to focus on this pope's fight for his life, I guess we can't help but be struck by how strong this man has been physically throughout his life and what he has endured, couple of assassination attempts, multiple surgeries, losing his gall bladder, his appendix. This is a man clearly with a fighting spirit, isn't he?

AMANPOUR: Absolutely, and I think that is what has motivated so many of the faithful. He has really been a giant morally and mentally inside his frail body for so many years. And people have seen how he has seemingly recovered from impossible odds over the years. But now they believe the end is near, that not even a miracle will be available this time to pull him back from the brink. That's why they have come. And it is a solemn time. I was stunned by how many tens of thousands of people were in Vatican Square earlier, and you could almost hear a pin drop. It was sad, it was somber, it was solemn.

Towards the end, though, there were groups of young people left who were playing guitar and singing, lighting candles, more in celebration of his life than, indeed, mourning at that point. But it is a moment where people know that an end of an era is coming. And they are waiting for what they know is inevitable and they are impressed by the strength and dignity of this man, even though many Catholics have found some of his teachings too conservative, too doctrinaire and too orthodox for their liking and some of the congregations and flocks around the world have dwindled, but still they recognize this was a great man.

ZAHN: You made an interesting point about the young people making music and saying prayers. This is the only pope these folks have known with this pope in power for some 25 years. Christiane, thanks so much. We'll be checking in with you a little bit later on this evening. Amid all the grim news, there has been no suggestion that pontiff will recover from this health crisis.

Joining us now from Atlanta is our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Dr., good to see you tonight. Could you put in perspective for us this evening what little we learned from the Vatican about the pope's grave condition?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Absolutely, Paula. Over the past 32 hours or so, we're getting more information than we normally get from the Vatican regarding his health condition. Started off with some concern about a urinary tract infection and also, concomitant with that a drop in blood pressure, which was concerning. This was yesterday, about 32 hours ago.

Then it appeared that he may be responding to antibiotics, but then shortly after that his condition became very serious. He was found to be in septic shock, which just basically means an overwhelming infection in the body. His cardiovascular system collapsed and as we heard throughout the day today, very serious blood pressure, unstable. And also that his heart and kidney function just insufficient.

Interestingly, Paula, it was about ten hours ago we got our last report, and it was the first report that didn't make any mention of the pope being conscious. The one before that said in fact that he had been participating. He was lucid as well. It seems all of his organ systems probably have taken a turn for the worse, probably irreversible anything reversible at this time, Paula.

ZAHN: And of course, at this hour, there's no way of understanding how long that process might take.

GUPTA: No, but there is data in the sense that other patients who have gone through this, obviously, the pope, 84 years old with significant medical problems. Anybody who is in septic shock, even an otherwise healthy person is in trouble as far as their health is concerned, about 30 percent or so patients may survive that, and that's without the advanced age and the medical problems that the pope has. So I think any medical person, any person would note that this is a very serious problem here.

ZAHN: Of course, one of the more severe things he faces is his Parkinson's disease. Do we know how that might further complicate this already grave medical situation?

GUPTA: The biggest concern for him for sure is the septic shock. That trumps anything else. But let me just tell you that it is not unusual for someone with Parkinson's to be more likely to develop an infection. Paula, when I heard about the high fever yesterday, they first thing I thought this was probably pneumonia. As it turns out, it was a urinary tract infection that subsequently spread to his blood and to the rest of his body.

The interesting thing is that Parkinson's can make you more likely to get the infection, and the infection can make your Parkinson's symptoms worse as well. So it's a vicious cycle. But I think most of that is probably moot at this point, given his septic shock. That is the most pressing health problem for him at this time, Paula.

ZAHN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so for the update. One of the first medical reports I think I understood today. Appreciate your input. Now as the world watches and waits and prays, of course, at this point, more of a gentle passing than just about anything else. These are quiet moments all over the world. In Atlanta and elsewhere today, daily mass became an opportunity for reflection on a remarkable papacy.

One parishioner calling the pope's courage under adversity a source of strength to her and her family. And in London, Cherie Blair, the prime minister's wife, took part in a special mass at Westminster Cathedral. Throughout his papacy, John Paul has devoted healing the rift between Catholic and Anglican churches.

There were also vigils all across Spain, home to more than 40 million Catholics and one of the more devout corners of Western Europe. John Paul was the first pope ever to visit Spain. And then in Iraq, where Christians of any stripe are a tiny minority, the faithful came to pray and remember a pope who championed tolerance among the many religions of the Middle East.

And it is in the countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain where sentiment has always run highest. Tonight that sentiment remains even as his hope for recovery begins to fade. When the moment arrives, the death of the pope, much like the death of a head of a state or even an American president, puts into motion a series of carefully orchestrated ceremonies all wrapped in ritual and tradition.

Jonathan Mann previews the process for choosing John Paul's successor.

And I just want you to know, there is nothing wrong with your television set. We're having problem getting the audio up in that piece. When we have it, we will bring it to you.

But in a moment, the early days before the pope was the pope, before he was even a humble parish priest. We'll break first. From New York, this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Just a moment ago we were talking about what happens when Pope John Paul dies, about some of the ritual and procedure that is followed. Again, we hope, Jonathan Mann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The gathering is called a conclave because the cardinals are considered locked in together conclave, with a key. Unable to communicate with the outside world in anyway, emerging only when they elect a new pope. Most people who visit the Vatican would hardly consider that punishment, but the clerics who gather for a papal conclave have sometimes found it exhausting. The voting is slow and repetitive, the living arrangements often improvised and uncomfortable. Conditions will be a bit better this time. Under John Paul II, the Vatican built St. Martha House, the Domus Santa Marta, a hotel for visiting nuns and clergy that will be emptied of its guests and restricted for the cardinals and officials attending the conclave. Like the other places where the cardinals will gather, it will be swept for microphones and listening devices. Its phone lines will be cut for the duration.

From Santa Marta, the cardinals will make their way each day to the Sistine Chapel, where they will meet to vote and probably vote again and again. In their first votes, perhaps as many of four of them a day, the cardinals will need to assemble a two-thirds majority in order to elect a pope. But depending on the pace of their balloting and other factors, the cardinals can decide after about 30 votes to elect a pope by a lesser margin, a simple majority. This was one of John Paul II's reforms. And it means if a determined group of cardinals can stay loyal to a candidate long enough, they stand a better chance of getting him elected. That new rule may be a key reason for a lengthy concave.

All through the conclave, each time the votes are cast and counted, the ballots are burned. The crowds gather at the Vatican Piazza St. Pietro will know that additives in the smoke rising from the Sistine Chapel will make it burn black for an inconclusive vote, white for a successful one. And shortly after they see white smoke, they will hear the first news. "Habamus Papam" "We have a pope." A man will walk out, as his predecessors have, to present himself urbi et orbi, to the city and the world. Jonathan Mann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: A process, as Jonathan pointed out, that has been honored for a long time. Now at just about 16 minutes past the hour, let's check in with Erica Hill with Headline News for the rest of the headlines this evening. Hi, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Paula. An FBI search of the former home of convicted Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols had turned up explosive materials dating back to before the 1995 attack. A spokesman says the search uncovered various explosive components, including blasting caps. Nichols was living in the Kansas home at the time of the bombing but has not lived their for years. He's serving multiple life prison sentences for his role in the attack that killed 168 people.

Former national security adviser Samuel Berger admits he showed poor judgment. He pleaded guilty on Friday to taking classified documents from the National Archives. Federal prosecutors say they will not ask for a jail sentence but will recommend a $10,000 fine. Berger told a federal judge he intentionally destroyed some of the documents dealing with terror threats during the 2000 millennium celebration. He will be formally sentenced in July.

Well, you're likely going to have to dig even deeper, maybe around the seats of your car, to pay for your next fill up. Analysts say gas prices will probably average more than 2.25 a gallon within just the next few weeks. Oil prices hit a record high on Friday, topping $57 a barrel and a report from investment bank Goldman Sachs says oil prices could surge as high as $105 a barrel. Another reason to break out the bike or the walking shoes.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: I was thinking the same thing. Yet another incentive to get out there and jog. Thanks so much, Erica.

Millions all over the world tonight are keeping a very special vigil for the pope as the final hours of his life unfold. The public outpouring of support is a stark contrast to his humble beginnings and the pain and tragedy he endured as a child, invisible and alone. Chris Burns is standing by live now in Krakow, Poland and has more in the small town where the first chapters of the pope's life were written. Good evening, Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol (sic). We're here in Krakow, Poland, actually, where the pope became priest, archbishop, went up the line among the ranks here. And a few hangers- on here outside the archbishop's residence where the pope used to speak through the window in very intimate exchanges with the people here. And last night we saw very emotional scenes with thousands of people with candles, incense and tears, singing to that window from which the pope actually had sung to them. And his is what we'll probably be seeing more of today as people remember this man as just a car's drive, an hour's drive away here, grew up in a very small town with -- this man that they later called uncle.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): Karol Wojtyla never forgot his roots. As Pope John Paul II, he returned triumphantly again and again to visit his humble beginnings, each visit drawing an outpouring for Wadowice's favorite son. The pope spoke of a cream pastry he loved as a kid. Bakeries couldn't make it fast enough for his admirers. A stark contrast from his days as a youth, growing up in a modest apartment that lay in the shadow of the town's main church. Now a museum, Karol Wojtyla's birthplace documents an arduous lifelong trek to the top.

Karol Wojtyla was born here May 18th, 1920. His father, Karol, Sr., was an army officer, his mother, Emilia a schoolteacher. The Wojtyla's were strict Catholics. They didn't share the anti-Semitic views of many Poles. In a town with 8,000 Catholics and 2,000 Jews, Karol Wojtyla had Jewish classmates. Many of them perished in the Holocaust. Childhood friends say death in Wojtyla's family forced young Karol to quickly become a man. His mother died of heart and kidney ailments when he was nine. Three years later tragedy struck again.

SZCZEPAN MOGLIENICKI, CLASSMATE (through translator): I would say he lost his childhood at 12 when he lost his brother. There was no youthful folly in him. Even when he played sports, he was very concentrated. But, of course, he had a lot of passion. He was a very noble person and he expressed things in a very noble way, but there was no folly. BURNS: After graduating from high school, Wojtyla went to Krakow to study literature and philosophy at Kagalonian (ph) University. He also joined an experimental theater. Danuta Michalowska first met him there in 1938

DANUTA MICHALOWSKA, ACTRESS (through translator): I was in high school. He was 18, strong, handsome. You could sense this strong personality.

BURNS: After Hitler's army invaded Poland the following year, Wojtyla worked at a quarry to avoid deportation to Germany as a slave laborer. He secretly studied to become a priest, though he continued wish his acting. Michalowska remembers how Wojtyla came dressed in his overalls from the quarry and told her to buy this book "King Spirit" for a performance.

MICHALOWSKA: He had this inner radiance, but he didn't lose time on small talk. He didn't participate in our jokes, and he wouldn't flirt. Maybe some women were disillusioned, but I couldn't imagine this kind of contact.

BURNS: From youth to adulthood, Wojtyla developed a spirit and stamina he would need as history's most traveled pope. His favorite sports, hiking, skiing, rowing, soccer and hockey.

MOGLIENICKI: He made use of every hour. When he played soccer, he sacrificed himself. He was full of passion, and he played as goalkeeper, and everyone was shouting his name because he would make every effort to defend the goal. He also played hockey. At one time the puck hit him on the brow. He had a scar from it.

BURNS: One of many scars from youth, physical and emotional, that gave Karol Wojtyla the resolve to leave his mark on this earth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: Now, Karol Wojtyla actually spoke to the people when he came back here as pope in 1979 to a land that was a communist land where he said "You can change this land, this land." And this is what people remember as they flock here today as they look to this window with which they spoke before. Now in this window is a black crucifix with a golden Jesus on it. Back to you, Paula.

ZAHN: What a beautiful look, though, at the early stages of his life, something that a lot of us hadn't been exposed to much up until this point. Thank you so much, Chris. Joining us now from Vatican City is CNN Vatican analyst John Allen. He also happens to be Rome correspondent for "The National Catholic Reporter."

Good to see you again, John. If you would, I'd like you to take us back earlier today when you as a reporter were trying to sort through the fact and fiction of what you were hearing through the Vatican, what you were hearing through private sources, when one news agency went with a report that the pope had actually died.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yeah, hi, Paula. Good to see you as well. Yes. You're absolutely right. The media, like nature, abhors a vacuum. And although the Vatican, by its own standards in the last 48 hours or so has actually been remarkably forthcoming about the pope's condition, it certainly has by no means fed the appetite of a 24 hour a day seven day a week news industry. And when there is a paucity of information to work on, as is the present moment. The last Vatican moment was some almost 11 hours ago now, what tends to take over is speculation, rumor and innuendo.

That's also fueled by the fact that the Italian press has many strengths, but a concern for factual accuracy isn't always top of the list. And so the truth is that in this environment you are going to have many false leads. And, of course, in this moment when there is great concern for the pope, and the Vatican is, in essence, on autopilot, awaiting news of the pope's condition, it's very difficult to get through to senior, well-placed, authoritative sources quickly who can put the rumors to rest. And so they tend to take on a life of their own.

That's why throughout this day and throughout the week that's led up to this moment, I and others have been trying to strike as many notes of caution as humanly possible of let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's not follow every wisp of the wind that comes along. Because the truth is the last couple of weeks, Paula, have simply been filled with one rumor about the pope's condition after another and I think it's been important to exercise some discipline to make sure we don't get ahead of the facts.

ZAHN: So if we are going to be as truthful as we can with our audience tonight, what is it that we do know at this hour about the pope's grave condition?

ALLEN: Well, Paula, quite honestly, what we know is what the Vatican is telling us, and up to this point we have been taking that at face value. That is, we had a noon time briefing yesterday with a Vatican spokesperson, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who gave us some insight into what was clearly the pope's failing health at that time, indicating as of that time, that is, roughly noon Rome time yesterday, the pope was still conscious and still lucid.

We had another written communique from the Vatican last evening at around 6:30 Rome time in which they indicated at that stage that the pope was facing multiple, multiple complications. His breathing was very shallow. And he hinted that the pope was only intermittently conscious, aware of what was going on. Since then, to be honest with you, we've had no further information from the Vatican, and we've been simply repeating and recycling and expanding upon and unpacking those two Vatican communiques. And to tell you the truth, that's about it.

ZAHN: Briefly in closing here, John, you have said that the Vatican so far has been amazingly forthright. Is there any expectation that this press office would withhold information from you at this hour?

ALLEN: Well, you know, I've always said that when the Vatican puts out a bulletin, you can assume everything in it is true and you can usually assume it's not all the truth. That is to say the Vatican has - and this isn't just this pontificate -- historically, has always tried to downplay and minimize to the pope's health and protect his privacy as much as possible. I think, Paula, frankly we can assume there's probably some of that going on here tonight as well.

ZAHN: John Allen, thank you for giving us a clearer picture of what we might be facing here tonight. Thanks so much.

Back home in a moment, how the pope changed American Catholicism and how he didn't. A break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And you're looking at a glorious picture, or were, of the St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City. New York, of course, home to one of the largest Roman Catholic communities on the planet. St. Patrick's Cathedral right at the heart of it.

The cathedral, under any circumstances, is an inspiring place, but under these circumstances, it becomes something else yet again. Adaora Udoji joins us from just outside. She has been out there for many hours and has had the opportunity to talk with a number of the pope's followers. And she had this report for us now.

Hi, Adaora.

ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Paula.

I think you're exactly right. It is sort of the central focal point for Catholics in this city. And people have been milling about for several hours now, even though the church has been closed. All day they were also coming in, they were going inside the church, they were sending their prayers and good wishes to the Pope John Paul II in this very trying time for him.

And there's a real feeling of community. I mean, we heard that over and over again talking to people from Texas, Ohio, Canada, many tourists were here. But also many New Yorkers. And overall, there was just a general sense of a very reflective atmosphere.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1995 when he came from Giants Stadium, and I'm from Jersey originally, so I went to see him at Giants Stadium. I was on the lower level, and the Pope Mobile was coming down. And I ran down to the front and waved. And he's going by and waving at everybody.

Of course, as soon as he passed me, he turned the other way, but I still felt the presence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get people together from different cultures, and I would say union, union is the word.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

UDOJI: And we talked to several dozen people later this evening after the church had closed who said that they would definitely be coming back tomorrow, Paula, because they are looking for a vigil, some sort of way of coming together and acknowledging what's happening with the pope at this time.

ZAHN: It's so interesting. You talked with so many of the faithful, the Catholic faithful. And earlier today, I was talking to a woman who waited over an hour, who's not even Catholic, a woman who is not normally a churchgoer, and she felt a great need to drop by St. Patrick's Cathedral to say a prayer for the pope. So, it's heart warming to see the level of response and outpouring of love for this man. Thank you, Adaora, so much.

And while the pope's charisma has often been visible, in his public appearance, those who know the private side of the man have a much deeper and richer perspective to share.

Joining me now from Washington D.C., Sister Mary Anne Walsh who actually travelled with the pope as part of the Vatican press corps for nearly a decade. She's also written a book about him.

So good to see you tonight. Thank you so much for joining us.

SISTER MARY ANNE WALSH, FRM. VATICAN PRESS CORPS: Thank you.

ZAHN: So sister Mary Anne, what might people be surprised by in private time what the pope is actually like.

WALSH: Well, I think they would be surprised that at a man with so many concerns on his shoulders would have time to be such a personable person. One example that always sticks out in my mind in Denver in '93, it was Friday night, and we had had a television hook up for the pope to Mile High Stadium, where the young people were going through the stations of the cross. And at the end of it, it was, you know, well after 10:00. He had a long day. And When it was over, he went around to thank everybody in the room.

Now, we were all there in a technical capacity. And I remember saying to somebody, you know, he didn't have to do that. We're not important people. And the person said to me, but to him we were important.

And I think that kind of personal reaching out to people, even people who, you know, generally blend into the wallpaper, that kind of technical position, was the measure of the man of a real thoughtfulness.

ZAHN: You hear that over and over again, what a generous soul he had. Did you ever have the opportunity to have any private conversations? I know you spent a lot of time with him on that first trip to the United States.

WALSH: Well, the private conversations were really more of the journalist type of conversations. But he loves journalists, and it would be the kind of banter that a great person would have with journalists, but wouldn't have it in the public eye. For example, we got of a plane one time in Latin America, and he said, well, are you still hanging in? It was laughable. He was 20, 30 years older than the rest of us and yet he could tease us about not having enough stamina. It was that kind of informality. We knew he liked us, and we certainly liked him.

I saw even more the reaching out to young people as if the pope reaches out to people who can't reach to him. It's kind of humorous on all of these papal visits, the Secret Service, especially in our country, would have it scripted right down to the second, and the pope would always throw their schedule completely off because if he saw a little child or a person with a handicapping condition, that couldn't go to him, he would go to them. So he would break away, and then the schedule, and the Secret Service would start sweat, because things were not going the way they were supposed to. But the Holy Father cared that he reached out to those persons. That's where his emphasis was.

ZAHN: And what do you think those young people, many of whom were disenfranchised, saw in him?

WALSH: Well, I think they saw someone who loved them and they loved him back. You know, in Toronto, it was a wonderful experience for World Youth Day a couple years ago. And I was a little worried beforehand because we had all the reports of the pope being ill. And we even were thinking you had to have a lift to bring him down from the plane.

And he came off the plane. All of a sudden we saw him walking down. Then he went to the microphone, and we really could understand him, even though previously he'd been difficult to understand.

And I said to his aides, something happened. Has there been a change in his medicine? What's going on here?

And they said, no, it's the emotion, the emotion of being with young people brought a breakthrough for him. He could break through the barriers of speech and the limitation that Parkinson's were bringing on to him. It was that great emotional feeling when he saw young people, and young people saw him.

ZAHN: I guess one thing that has struck me tonight, Sister Mary Anne, is hearing from these young people who basically say, look, this pope has been in power some 25 years. It's the only pope we've known.

WALSH: And he's also the only leader that I can recall who has ever reached out to young people. We've had leaders for centuries. He was the only one who ever thought to call the youth of the world together.

And it was I real teaching experience to us in the United States. We used to refer to the young people as the church of tomorrow. And after World Youth Day in Denver, we began to say no, this is the church of now. The pope recognized that before anyone.

ZAHN: What a wonderful part of his legacy. Thank you so much Sister Mary Anne Walsh for joining us tonight. You really gave us an inside look at a part of the life that very few of us knew about the pope.

Traditional in his beliefs, Pope John Paul II has also been a modern force in the Catholic Church. In a moment we're going to look at the considerable ground he has broken. From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. When Pope John Paul II was elected a quarter of a century ago, the world was a very different place. Cable news didn't exist, for one thing, nor did the Internet. Walkmans hadn't even been invented yet, let alone iPods.

Throughout his pontificate, John Paul has had plenty of opportunities to break new ground. And he has taken them. Here's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the very beginning, Pope John Paul II's papacy broke new ground. He was the first non-Italian pope in 455 years.

WILTON WYNN, JOURNALIST: The time had come they could no longer find an Italian of sufficient stature to win the majority of the votes in the conclave. They had to look around.

VINCI: And they found a man who, for more than a quarter of a century, continued to set precedents, not just on far-reaching religious issues, but also on more everyday matters, giving the papacy a whole new image.

Meeting religious leaders from all over the world, John Paul II reached out in ways once considered impossible or even heretical, pushing the boundaries.

He became the first pope to visit a synagogue in Rome, to pray at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. In Syria, the first to visit a mosque, urging Christians, Jews and Muslims to work together for peace in the Middle East, turning the church into one looking beyond just the Catholic religion.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: He's made it into an evangelizing church, where the premium no longer is on sort of being obsessed with our internal debates.

VINCI: He was also the first pope ever to be received at the White House, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)1979. The president was Jimmy Carter.

He traveled to places no other pontiff had ever been before -- 179 countries, beginning with Mexico in 1979, only months after being elected, covering a papal record, 700,000 miles, three times the distance from here to the moon. And whether riding a gondola in Venice, wearing a sombrero in Mexico, or enjoying local traditions, this pope always added a touch of style.

At the same time, the pope often denounced what he called the dangers of modern Western society -- genetic engineering, cloning, gay marriages. Yet, he implemented the church's own form of globalization, inaugurating the first Vatican Web site, and becoming the first pope ever to send an e-mail.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And as Alessio just reported, Pope John Paul II has reached out to other faiths and to other branches of Christianity. And joining us now from Plymouth, Massachusetts is Reverend Peter Gomes, a Baptist minister and a professor of Christian morals at Harvard Divinity School. Welcome, Reverend Gomes.

REV. PETER GOMES, PROFESSOR, HARVARD DIVINITY SCHOOL: Thank you.

ZAHN: So what is the relationship this Catholic pope had with non-Catholics?

GOMES: Well, I think it's phenomenal that non-Catholics tended to regard the pope as part of their universe, and I think he's probably the first pope in history which -- to which people had a claim beyond being members of the Roman Catholic Church. And so I think the sense that the pope belongs to everybody was made real in this present pontificate.

ZAHN: And do you think that simply came from what you see as his unrivaled moral authority?

GOMES: Well, it's not just his unrivaled moral authority, it is the fact that he actually reached out to people. He decided that the church was broader than the confines of the Vatican. He took initiatives. He became a part of the global community, and I think in doing so, laid claim upon the moral interest of a lot of people. Not everybody necessarily agreed with his moral positions, but I think everybody was grateful that there was one voice that spoke out from this point of view in a very chaotic world.

ZAHN: So when you look at his contribution as a spiritual leader, what is it that you think will be the most enduring part of that legacy?

GOMES: Well, I think he raised the bar of spirituality, if you'll permit that formulation. That is so say he made it possible for all sorts of people to think about the public expression of religion and its relation to contemporary affairs, whether it had to do with traditional Roman Catholic teaching, or issues that went beyond that in terms of world citizenship and world responsibility. And those were issues that I think attracted attention well beyond the confines of the Roman Catholic Church. ZAHN: You've lauded this pope so much for bridging together some of the gaps of -- divides we've seen for years during -- between various faiths. Is there anything, any area where he fell short in that regard?

GOMES: Well, I think there were many who hoped that he would advance the Vatican II agenda, and there were times when it appeared very clear that he was less interested in the kind of liturgical reforms that Pope John XXIII initiated. So I think in that sense, he was regarded as less progressive than some of his more immediate predecessors. But I think that notwithstanding, he was able to set an agenda that drew an awful lot of people outside of the Roman Catholic community, and that was very important.

ZAHN: Reverend Gomes, what else will you remember this pope for?

GOMES: Well, I will remember the fact that he insisted when he came to Boston in 1979 -- and I happened to represent Harvard University on that occasion on Boston Common -- he insisted that the clergy of non-Catholic traditions be included in the ceremonies, and that was really, in 1979, that was a remarkably gracious and inclusive gesture. And I remember, as a conspicuous Protestant on that occasion, feeling as welcomed into the papal entourage as any faithful priest of the archdiocese. And that struck me as a new and very welcome note in a world that had not always been as hospitable as that.

ZAHN: And a generous note to end on this evening. Reverend Gomes, thank you so much for your time and your reflections tonight.

GOMES: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: My pleasure.

Just ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we're going to be talking with the editor of the Catholic magazine "America," as well as the president of the Catholic University. This is a very special edition of NEWSNIGHT, on CNN. We leave you with a live shot as the sun is just coming up in Rome this morning, 5:47 a.m. local time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And if you're watching your clocks tonight, and I know you are, we have jumped up on just about 10 minutes before the hour. That means it's time to check in with Erica Hill at Headline News.

Hi, Erica.

HILL: Hi, Paula.

One of the other big stories, of course, of the week, that of Terri Schiavo. Tonight we're learning Michael Schiavo and in-laws will be mourning the death of Terri separately. Schiavo plans to cremate his wife's remains and bury the ashes in Pennsylvania where she grew up. Terri's parents Bob and Mary Schindler want her buried in Florida, but they don't plan a court fight over their daughter's remains. They have a scheduled a funeral mass for Tuesday. The medical examiner completed the autopsy of Terri Schiavo today. Results, however, will probably not be released for several weeks.

Former CIA director, George Tenet is disputing a presidential commission's report, which claims he was warned that a key source on Iraq's biological weapons had a reputations for making things up. Tenant and former acting CIA director, John McLaughlin issued lengthy statements saying, they were not alerted before the war to concerns about the source, code name Curveball. The commission found that that information from Curveball was the centerpiece to the U.S. case to United Nations about the need to attack Iraq.

Police in Spain arrested 12 men on Friday who may be linked to terrorism. And also may have times to some suspects in last year's Madrid train bombing. A suspected al Qaeda spokesman is also in Spanish custody after being extradited from Belgium. Spanish authorities say the Madrid attacks were apparently made in his name. And that is the latest from Headline News.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Erica. See you in the next hour.

In conversations throughout the day today, the word serenity was heard over and over again. Both the advisers to the pope and a spokesman for his holiness, said that as the end draws near, the pope has been both peaceful and I guess, accepting potentially of his fate.

Joining us right now is the president of Catholic University, Father David O'Donnell and Father Reese who is the editor of "American Magazine."

Both of your dathia's (ph) just went away like that, poof. Good to see both of you, gentlemen, particularly at this time of such great concern about the pope's condition. Father O'Donnell, what is it you think that the American public might not know about the pope that they should think about.

FATHER DAVID O'CONNELL, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: Well, that's a very interesting question. I think that, especially today, as the reports came forward, the notion of serenity, the notion of peace that fills this man's soul as he approaches the end of his life demonstrates, you know, a great -- a great gentleness of spirit and a great sense of the presence of God in his life. And while we might presume that in the life of a clergyman, especially, in the life of the pope, it's something that I think at times is not -- is not talked about that much. I think people tend to emphasize maybe some of his political involvements and some of his ideological involvements. But this a really -- really and truly a man of God.

ZAHN: Father Reese, how has this pope inspired you?

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA MAGAZINE": Well, you know, I was thinking about that. So many things about him. His conviction, his being willing to speak out on various issues, which -- which you know, people on both the right and the left disagree with him. You know, he was against abortion, but he was also against capital punishment. You know, he was -- you know, President Bush talks about the culture of life in Terri Schiavo, but the pope was also against the war in Iraq. This is a pope who has talked about issues from conviction rather than just what he thinks the public wants to hear.

ZAHN: So, you're telling me tonight he was not a poll reader.

REESE: No. No.

ZAHN: He didn't...

REESE: He was a pole, but he was not a poll reader.

ZAHN: But he didn't really put that into his assessment.

REESE: No. No.

ZAHN: That wasn't something that overly concerned him -- public perceptions.

REESE: The other thing that really I admired him for was admitting the mistakes of the church. I think, he shocked people during the millennium celebrations in the year 2000 when he stood up and apologized -- it was like for 30 different things that the church had done through the centuries, especially, of course, for the persecution of the Jews, the sins of Christians against Jews. This was extremely important. And apologizing for the crusades and for the treatment of Galileo, this great scientist who was persecuted by the church. You know, the church does -- in the past would never admit that it did anything wrong. But we, as Christians, I mean, if Jesus tells us anything, it's that we're all sinners. We all make mistakes. And we have to confess our sins, whether it's people in the pews, clergy or even popes.

ZAHN: Father O'Connell, how much courage has it taken for the pope to make those kind of admissions.

O'CONNELL: Well, I think, as Father Reese had mentioned, it took great courage on his part. Again, this is a man -- you asked earlier, you know, what are the things about him that maybe people don't realize? This is a man who is also made of tremendous humility. His whole life experience has taken him through many, many things. And he himself has grown as a result of those experiences. He's a humble man, and I think that contributed very much to his willingness to acknowledge the church, not only as divine, but also as human, as father Reese has pointed out.

ZAHN: Father O'Connell, I guess the other thing that moved me tonight, we had Sister Mary Anne on earlier who traveled in the Press Corp at the Vatican with the pope for many, many years. And she was saying there was a stop over in a trip in Denver during one of the popes visits, where he made a point of talking to people involved in the technical crew. And she said they sort of stood in the back of the room and said, well, he didn't need to come over and address me. But he had a genuine concern about how they were all doing. O'CONNELL: Yes, I think, in his mind, his heart and his eyes, no person is too small or too insignificant for him to spend time with. And that was one of his great, great qualities. He also had a tremendous sense of humor, and that is also something people may don't realize about him.

ZAHN: Well, it's nice to talk to you both about the pope tonight, Father O'Connell and Thomas Reese. And did I finally get the name of your magazine right?

REESE: America...

ZAHN: Editor "America magazine." Sorry about that. Thank you, again, for your reflections.

In a moment, from an assassins bullet to a fight with cancer, and the of course the Parkinson's disease. The pope's very public struggle with pain and adversity. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Good evening and welcome. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

If you are just joining us, this is a special edition of "Newsnight." I'm Paula Zahn.

It is 11:00 p.m. here in New York. Aaron Brown is now on his way to Rome, where Pope John Paul II is by all accounts, close to death.

This was the scene earlier tonight at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City, where tens of thousands of people kept vigil all day long, praying for the Pope, saying their goodbyes.

The Vatican earlier today confirming that the Pope is gravely ill; his condition declining. The last communication from church officials came more than 11 hours ago.

Let's go straight to Rome now where Christiane Amanpour is standing by as the sun is coming up in Rome this morning. What can you observe from your vantage point tonight?

AMANPOUR: Well, certainly that the crowds outside, the tens of thousands who really swelled Vatican Square earlier have now dwindled to virtually no one. But it is assumed that once day breaks, once the day wears on, people will gather again. Because this has been a long vigil for a Pope that they believe they're here to say goodbye to.

It's almost now, a bit of a macabre, morbid waiting game, as one waits for formal word. As you said, the last communique was many, many hours ago and it's not expected that there will be another one until there is news of his passing.

Of course, that might change if this takes longer than several more hours. Then, perhaps, the Vatican will feel that it has to say something in the interim. But certainly the Vatican Press Agency, which had been manned for many, many hours and into the wee hours of this morning, we were told by our producer there, it's closing now and for the next three hours or so to get some rest and to get the place back into order before they start up again.

But even though people were there, there was no information coming overnight: none from the officials and none into the early morning hours. And so, it really is a watch and wait game now and people, as I say, believe that this is the end for the Pope. They have seen him struggle back and fight back from many attempts on his life, many bouts with severe illness. And certainly, in these last few months of his final illness, he has really struggled.

But now, many of the people I talked to in the Square in earlier hours, said that they felt that this was a somber and sad moment, that this was a moment where they needed to give their support, their prayers, their comfort and love to the Pope, as he prepares to pass on to the eternal life, as Catholics, of course, believe that it is not death, but the beginning of eternal life.

So, that is what they're waiting to hear.

Paula?

ZAHN: And Christiane, once there is ultimately an announcement of his death, what kind of process will we see?

AMANPOUR: Well, there's a very formal and entrenched process that has been through the ages of the papacy and there will be a situation where a cardinal calls his name, that the papal apartments are sealed. That then it will be announced to the public his death. And then the period of mourning, the funeral, which needs to take place, according to tradition, between four to six days afterwards.

The gathering of the cardinals to elect a new pope, between 15 and 20 days after his death, and then the election of the new pope. So, there are many formal rituals that are in place and awaiting the moment to start to get underway.

ZAHN: Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much for the update.

We should remind you all earlier today, the Pope's Vicar General for Vatican City told the crowd at St. Peter's Square, quote, "this evening or this night, Christ opens the door to the Pope," unquote.

There has been no suggestion by the Vatican that recovery is even a possibility. But just how close to death the Pope may be, remains unclear.

Joining us now from Atlanta, Senior Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Doctor, if you would, sift through what we think we know about the Pope's grave condition at this hour.

GUPTA: Yes, sure Paula. This really started a couple months ago when he was hospitalized with the flu for 10 days. He subsequently had a breathing tube placed in two weeks after being released from the hospital. And then a feeding tube, sort of, gradual, slow, but progressive symptoms over the past couple of months.

But most recently, though, Paula, of course, his urinary tract infection that people have been focusing so much on yesterday. That happened almost 34 hours ago now. A significant infection at that point.

It developed what is known as septic shock. That is when you essentially have an overwhelming infection. The bacteria gets into the blood stream; causes a collapse of the vascular system; all the blood vessels, the heart, not working as well. And then, within a couple of hours, a very serious condition.

We were told at noon, and that was the last communicational, 11 hours ago now, Paula, that essentially all the organs had started to fail. Anything that you could possibly measure wasn't headed in the right direction. It was all seeming to be heading in a worse direction.

That is what we know. It's not very much, now over the last 11 hours, but knowing what we do about septic shock, things probably have continued to get worse, in terms of his organ function and his brain function, as well, Paula.

ZAHN: So, we don't want to create a sense of false hope, or try to read things into these announcements, we don't know, but you're a doctor, you've looked at studies. How long can any patient in a typical condition like this carry on?

GUPTA: Well, a couple days maximum, Paula. And most of these studies that we looked at today when we tried to do our homework on this, it looked at people who really, were otherwise healthy and then developed septic shock.

You remember, the Pope is 84 years old; he has a significant medical history. For him to recover from septic shock, I think it's not very likely at all. And I'm not trying to be too definitive one way or the other, because you can never be sure, but I think it's just very likely at all, just given his age and these other medical problems.

Also, Paula, as you pointed out, he has not been taken to the hospital. All the best numbers, in terms of recovery are people who are getting intensive care in an intensive care unit. And that's not the case here with the Pope.

ZAHN: And I was asking a priest earlier this evening, Dr. Sanjay, what he thought that indicated and he said that he believes he's at the point of his life, where he's reconciled what is to come and he's ready to let go.

GUPTA: Yes, we were thinking one of two things: either that, he himself did not want to go to the hospital; medically it could have been that he just was too unstable to go to the hospital. Either reason, neither one of them bode very well, Paula.

ZAHN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

ZAHN: I know you've had a long day, appreciate your trying to piece together all this for us, tonight.

GUPTA: Thank you.

ZAHN: When the moment finally comes, as Christiane mentioned a couple minutes ago, a lot happens, much of it behind closed doors. And with a look at that process right, here's Jonathan Mann.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): The gathering is called a conclave, because the cardinals are considered locked into together "conclave," with a key; unable to communicate with the outside world in any way, emerging only when they elect a new pope.

Most people who visit the Vatican would hardly consider that punishment, but the clerics who gather for a papal conclave have, sometimes, found it exhausting. The voting is slow and repetitive, the living arrangements often improvised and uncomfortable.

Conditions will be a bit better this time. Under John Paul II, the Vatican built St. Martha House, the Domus Santa Marta, a hotel for visiting nuns and clergy that will be emptied of its guests and restricted to the cardinals and officials attending the conclave.

Like the other places where the cardinals where gather, it will be swept for microphones and listening devices; its phone lines will be cut for the duration.

From Santa Marta, the cardinals will make their way each day to the Sistine Chapel, where they will meet to vote and probably vote again and again. In their first votes, perhaps as many as four of them a day, the cardinals will need to assemble a two-thirds majority in order to elect a pope. But depending on the pace of their balloting and other factors, the cardinals can decide after about 30 votes to elect a pope by a lesser margin, a simple majority.

This was one of John Paul II's reforms and it means that if a determined group of cardinals can stay loyal to a single candidate long enough, they stand a better chance of getting him elected. That new rule may be a key reason for a lengthy conclave.

All through the conclave, each time the votes are cast and counted, the ballots are burned. The crowds who gather in the Vatican's Piazza Santa Pietro will know that additives in the smoke rising from the Sistine Chapel will make it burn black for an inconclusive vote, white for a successful one. And shortly after they see white smoke, they will hear the first news. UNIDENTIFIED FORMER VATICAN SPOKESMAN: Habamus Papam!

MANN: Habamus Papam: We have a pope.

A man will walk out as his predecessors have, to present himself, Urbi et Orbe, to the city and the world.

Jonathan Mann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And in a moment, we're going to take a look at how John Paul is remembered in his hometown and the role he played in setting it free from communism.

A break first. This is "Special Edition" of Newsnight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Some adoring images of Pope John Paul II.

What will be a cornerstone of his legacy is his pivotal role in helping topple Soviet communist rule. He did it without armies, weapons, or violence. It was a moral commitment he made as soon as he became pope.

More details now from Chris Burns, who is in Krakow, Poland tonight. Good evening, Chris, or good morning your time.

BURNS: Good morning, as it were. Yes, Paula. Dawn now, but throughout much of the night, we see just a few candles left, but through much of the night, we had thousands of people here, who were remembering the Pope, including a mother of 30 years old, Anna, who came with her daughter, five years old.

She was in that crowd and she said that she thought it important for her daughter to see what she, when she was five years old, she saw the Pope come for the first time in 1979 inspire this country and this is what she wanted her daughter to see was the end of this era, she said, what she felt was the greatest man in Poland's time today.

And she is among those here who feel that this man inspired them to a peaceful, velvet revolution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: The pilgrimage of the Black Madonna: Poland's biggest annual religious event. It's centered around a painting that symbolizes resistance to countless invasions.

During the communist era, the future pope, then-Archbishop Karol Wojtyla, faced down the regime by leading mass here, in a combination of religion and nationalism.

The first key test of will between Wojtyla and the Soviet-backed regime came in the town of Nova Huta. Built by the communists as a model steel town with Stalinist housing blocks. Wojtyla backed efforts to establish a church here.

It's called the Lord's Ark, built in the form of a ship in the middle of what was then, a sea of red. It was Karol Wojtyla's first victory against a communist regime. To build a church in the city the government tried so hard to keep godless.

For years, Wojtyla would lead open-air mass on the barren site. The priest, who would later leave the church, was there when thousands attended one freezing Christmas Eve in 1965. It began with a song, "God is Born."

FATHER JOZEF GORZELANY, POLISH PRIEST (through interpreter): Someone in the crime shouted the second line, "and the power is crumbling," he said.

And people started repeating the shout. "The power is crumbling." Wojtyla repeated it, "The power is crumbling." And there will be a church built in Nova Huta.

BURNS: More churches would follow as Wojtyla took advantage of a weakening regime, struggling with a declining economy. When Wojtyla became pope, he vowed that the so-called "Church of Silence" in the Soviet Bloc would no longer hold its tongue.

Meanwhile, Polish workers staged more strikes for higher wages and against price increases. The independent trade union, Solidarity, was born with Wojtyla their spiritual leader.

ADAM BONIECKI, EDITOR, CATHOLIC WEEKLY (through translator): I think when he saw his picture at the Gdansk Shipyards; he discovered he was their spiritual godfather he says.

BURNS: Solidarity founder and former president Lech Walesa says the Pope accelerated the movement peacefully.

LECH WALESA, FORMER PRESIDENT, SOLIDARITY (through translator): We, without him, would have started much, much later and with a lot of blood.

BURNS: But those who worked closely with Wojtyla insist he had no master plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It wasn't at all, a strategy of struggle with communism. The strategy concerned spiritual development of his flock.

BURNS: And perhaps, most of all, by inspiring his flock to yearn for spiritual and personal freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: Now, one anecdote from that Turya back then was General Wojciech Jaruzelski, who was the president of the time, his knees were shaking when he met the Pope back then. And, if you can consider just last night there was a mass in Warsaw, where the former communist president, Mr. Kwasniewski, as well as his prime minister attended a mass in honor of the pope. You can see, really, how deep and how far that respect goes.

ZAHN: He certainly millions of people.

Chris Burns, thanks so much.

Once again, we go back to Rome to check in with CNN Vatican Analyst, John Allen, who is also a correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter.

Good morning, John. Anything new from the Vatican or from your sources at this hour, on the Pope's grave condition?

ALLEN: Nothing official from the Vatican, Paula. Their last communique was some 12 hours ago, indicating the Pope was facing a failure, a health failure on multiple fronts: that his breathing had become very shallow. The statement actually hinted he was only intermittently conscious.

And of course, it's only early morning here, Rome time. So, it's only been in the last 45 minutes or so we've had the opportunity to try to make contact with some Vatican officials, who tell us that the Pope continues to be quite near death. but there does not appear to be any significant movement since the details that were given to us last evening by the Vatican.

We're obviously here on a wait-and-see mode.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about this Pope's legacy. The positive and the negative: could you quickly tick off a couple of those in each column?

ALLEN: Well, of course, to some extent, Paula, that's a matter of perspective, isn't it?

But sure, I think on the world stage there's little argument that John Paul has been a tremendous unifier. But it's not just his role as Chris Burns' piece just talked about, in putting Eastern and Western Europe back together and in helping to set in motion the dominoes that led to the fall of communism.

It's also the fact that he has been a tremendous unifier between Christianity and Judaism, for example. No one will forget his very memorable, 1999 trip to the Holy Land, when he went to the Western Wall and left behind a note apologizing for Christian anti-Semitism.

And yet, within Catholicism, strikingly enough, and let's not forget that part of his mandate is to govern the catholic church, this has been, to some extent, a bit of a divisive pontificate. There is a liberal wing in the church that on a range of issues feels quite disaffected from this pontificate, not so much the pope himself, but the pontificate.

There's a conservative wing, obviously, that feels quite energized by it. And that's a bit the paradox of the man. A great unifier on the world stage, outside the boundaries of the church, but a bit of a divider, perhaps necessarily so from his point of view, but nevertheless, a bit of a divider inside the church.

ZAHN: And there's one thing that no one can dispute tonight: the tremendous impact he's had on individual lives.

I was really moved by the pictures we saw from Chris Burns' piece when he went back to Poland: the very place where the Pope has spent a lot of time and those people were overwhelmed with emotion.

John Allen, thanks so much. We will be checking in with you throughout the weekend.

Just ahead on the program: the controversial chapters in John Paul's papacy, some of which John just touched on.

Also, the church and women when "Newsnight" continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: One of the most heart wrenching images of the Pope's final days came on Easter Sunday. These pictures: when he tried to speak, wasn't able to utter a word.

He leads and inspires more than a billion Catholics, but when it comes to suffering, the Pope is no different from any of us. He must bear it privately and alone.

Suffering is at the heart of the Christian experience and even though the Pope would never have chosen what has happened to him, the ravages of his Parkinson's Disease have been profound, he has chosen to respond with ferocious courage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE KLOEHN, CHICAGO TRIBUNE RELIGION ANALYST: He brought with him a vigor and an optimism and an energy level that the Vatican hadn't seen in decades. And that made a huge impression.

He was the vigorous mountain-climbing Pope, the Pope who went on ski vacations. He was the Pope who was willing to take off his zucchetto and throw on a cowboy hat and scoop up a little toddler in his arms.

He was all those things and he was happy to show that off.

He had always been an outdoorsy guy. And so, he brought that all to the papacy.

When he stood at an altar, he was not hunched, he was not tentative, he stood strong and his voice rang out: a deep, beautiful baritone.

And when he was away from the altar, he was striding through crowds. The energy just came through.

The first great change in his physical appearance was when he was shot in 1981 in St. Peter's Square: an assassination attempt that very nearly took his life. He wasn't afraid to share that with the world.

There are pictures of him in his hospital bed in 1981 recovering from the gunshot wound. No pope before that had allowed that kind of imagery to go out to the public, but he wanted them to know that he was somebody who suffered like all other human beings.

In the mid-1990s, we began to see the first symptoms of Parkinson's Disease. And obviously it was taking a toll on his endurance.

Over the years, as age and illnesses and the shooting began to take their toll, there were some people who expected the Pope to change his approach, to somehow back away from the public stage to hide. That wasn't at all what he had in mind.

He wanted to continue to live life, which included both the good and the bad, and live it publicly. He said it was more important to be there and be part of it and let people see him suffer than to try to hide that. And there are deep theological roots to that.

The other point that he wanted to make clear was that suffering was an important part of the Christian story, and that in some small way, when human beings suffer, the pope or anybody, they take some small share in the suffering of Christ on the cross.

His view of life was a deep, personal love of life. It was part of how he felt about abortion; it was part of how he felt about capital punishment. For him, it was all about the sanctity of life. His legacy can be approached from any of a thousand directions and different people will find different things in their legacy from him.

But I think his physical person, his being, his life story, will be part of it for almost everybody who witnessed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And throughout the day, we had been reporting the bulletins from Rome and as the bulletins had become graver, hope for the Pontiff's recovery has slowly turned to prayers for an easy passing.

In Atlanta and all over the country today, daily mass became an opportunity for quiet reflection on the Pope's remarkable life and what it means to people.

In London, a measure of solidarity across two branches of the faith. A special mass was held today at London's Westminster Cathedral. During his papacy, John Paul has devoted a great deal of effort to bridging the differences between the catholic and Anglican churches.

There were also vigils all across Spain, home to nearly 40 million Catholics. John Paul was the first pope ever to visit Spain back in 1987.

And then in Iraq, where Christians of any stripe are a minority, the faithful came to pray and remember a pope who championed tolerance among the many religions of the Middle East. And it is in, of course, countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain, where sentiment for John Paul has always run high. Tonight, it remains even as hope begins to fade.

We're going to have more for you in just a moment, including the Pope's record on the issue of women and the church, and some of the controversy over women and the church.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: John Paul II has firmly believed that only men could be ordained as priests in the Roman Catholic Church, because that was the will of Jesus Christ. Well, that is one issue about women that fosters different opinions among women about their role in the church.

An examination tonight from Delia Gallagher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST (voice-over): Pope John Paul II's very first message on the status of women came out on New Year's Day 1995. One theme: women have the right to be fully involved in every area of public life.

A few months later, on the eve of the fourth world conference on women in Beijing, he made an unprecedented move, becoming the first pope in history to apologize to women: "How many women have been and continue to be valued more for their physical appearance than for their skill, their professionalism, their intellectual abilities and if objective blame has belonged to not just a few members of the Church, for this I am truly sorry."

Many thought that this apology would herald a new era in the Catholic Church's teaching on gender and sexuality, as well. But it was not to be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we have a papal encyclical and a papal apology calling for a program for the promotion of women, where's the program?

GALLAGHER: For some, the program was clear: both within the Vatican and around the world, John Paul did promote women.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that there are women working in higher positions, staff positions in the Vatican is one clear sign. That we are named to represent the Vatican in different things. They trust us to be there. A number of other things like that are all to be honored of Pope John Paul II.

GALLAGHER: In his many travels, he encouraged women, both in their careers and in their roles as mothers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it be the Mother Superior of an order of nuns, whether you're teaching in an inner city school as a female teacher, or whether you're the stay at home mom, your job is really important to the church. And the pope says this quite clearly.

GALLAGHER: But for others, a program that promotes women everywhere but on the altar is no program at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any institution that is not fully incorporating women leaves out half the agendas of the human race.

GALLAGHER: But John Paul II did not budge from the longstanding Catholic tradition of an all-male priesthood, nor on allowing the use of contraception, causing some women to protest and others to leave the church altogether.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The church is -- is bleeding women. And some day, that's going to affect us as a church, and it's not going to be long and may indeed be happening now.

GALLAGHER: To understand the pope's position, which seemed to encourage some women's issues and discourage others, it helps to look at his model of womanhood, the Virgin Mary. He believed it was she who saved his life when a would be assassin attempted to kill him in St. Peter's Square in 1981. And it was Mary's openness to motherhood that the pope said women should imitate, hence the ban on abortion and contraception.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The pope is talking about in general this is a gift that God has given to women, in particular. The human race is entrusted to women.

GALLAGHER: In modern society, however, not all women share the pope's vision, and in an age of AIDS, his refusal to allow the use of condoms caused many to call him out of touch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He seems to have adopted the position of the philosophers and theologians from about the 13th Century.

GALLAGHER (on camera): The pope's reasoning when it came to women's issues was based on centuries old church teachings and is largely shared by his cardinal advisers, one of whom will become the next pope. Anyone expecting radical change will likely be disappointed.

Delia Gallagher for CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: More now about the future of the church and the role of women. Joining us in Washington is Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, the former lieutenant governor of Maryland and the niece of President John F. Kennedy, America's first and only Catholic president.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND, FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, MARYLAND: Good to be with you, Paula. ZAHN: We mentioned that you're from a famous Catholic family, one of the most famous Catholic families in this country. You had the opportunity to meet this pope. What kind of a personal impact did that have on you?

TOWNSEND: Well, he was -- he's an extraordinary human being and a great leader. I saw what he did when I've gone to Poland a number of times, and what he really did in leading the church there and fighting communism and keeping the idea of freedom alive when it was really, really tough. And I think that's going to be one of his most critical and crucial and lasting legacies that he really stood up against totalitarianism and said people must be free.

I saw this -- you know, what it's affect was in the late '80s, and you know, still talk to the many, many people from Poland. And they can talk with eloquence and love of what this pope has been able to do for them. And around the world, as you've seen tonight in your show. The pope has had an amazing impact when he's gone to Africa or South America or even in our own country when he came to Baltimore.

He -- it's been very moving. And it's great for me as a Catholic to see a man who has been such a strong spiritual leader and really touched people's lives and helped them see -- see God in their -- in their daily work.

ZAHN: But is there a paradox, do you think, in his papacy? One of our guests was mentioning the great things he accomplished outside of the church. And -- and then they touched on some of the dissension he's created in the church with some of his policies. Do you see that paradox?

TOWNSEND: I -- I do. You know, I do. I mean, I love the Catholic Church. I grew up in the church. It's been a spiritual home for me. But I am saddened about the views about women.

I mean, I -- maybe that he came from a different time, maybe he didn't understand that you know, it's important to have women on the altar. It's important to have women be able to preach. It's important for a church that, you know, speaks for the poor and the disadvantaged and the hungry. And so many of those are women that you would want them to be represented.

And I think that one of the challenges for the next pope and really for the church ourselves is to deal with the issue of women.

ZAHN: And what do you think are the consequences if the next pope continues down this path for women?

TOWNSEND: Well, I think what is happening already are that women, and many just -- they go to their parish churches. They -- they're taking more -- they're taking more charge of what's going on in the parishes, because they're not getting as many priests. And they're finding the Catholic Church within their own communities.

And it's strong and it's -- it's wonderful. And it's been a great comfort. And it's helped us deal with the sadness and the suffering that goes on in all our lives. But I do think, as a public statement, and what the pope is is the head of a $1 billion church, could do much more in helping women throughout the world.

I think that the church is going to still be vibrant and strong. It has good news to preach. But it just could be better.

ZAHN: We all have been so moved by the faces we've seen all over the world tonight and this outpouring of love for this pope. Just a final reflection on the impact of his personal ministry, his ability to touch people, particularly his ability to reach out to young people, many of whom have nothing in common with this pope.

TOWNSEND: Well, what he's done and with those travels throughout the world, is saying that we can have a spiritual leader in this world.

I mean, the 20th Century, as you know, was just a terrible century for murder and genocide and wars and the growth of nuclear armaments. And we were yearning for a spiritual leader. And you saw this man be able to play that role and just to go throughout the world and try to bring people together and to say, "This is at least what we have in common."

And I think from that viewpoint, he was an amazing leader. And that legacy is critical and has touched not just the politics but really our hearts about what we can be and what we should be.

ZAHN: Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us tonight. Kathleen Kennedy Townsend.

TOWNSEND: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Just ahead on this special edition of "NEWSNIGHT," we will hear from younger priests in training, how they see this turning point in the church. This is "NEWSNIGHT."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And we are back. The next pope will have to deal with the nagging problem that frustrated Pope John Paul II. That is the shortage of new priests. But there are young men studying in American Catholic seminaries today, and they are dedicated to the vision and the message of John Paul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): The next generation of Catholic priests can be found in seminaries like Holy Apostle College near Hartford, Connecticut. George McInnis from Kentucky felt the calling in high school.

GEORGE MCINNIS, SEMINARY STUDENT: My friends didn't really understand it. You know, being religious, you know, I have the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. But if you're called, nothing will make you happy -- happier.

ZAHN: James Cadman from England says the vows of priesthood are a worthwhile sacrifice.

JAMES CADMAN, SEMINARY STUDENT: Naturally, our hearts long to love one person exclusively, you know, to be married and to have that exclusive love. But the heart of a priest is called to have a total self giving, to love everybody equally with the same love.

ZAHN: Hector Galvis is from Columbia.

HECTOR GALVIS, SEMINARY STUDENT: The life of John Paul was a very, very good example for us for the now he gave his life until the last -- the last hour for the -- for the love, for the love of church.

ZAHN: John Paul II is the only pope these men have ever known. They see him as a rock of faith, an inspiration to youth.

MCINNIS: His fidelity to the teachings of Christ and -- and being a true shepherd in the midst of a world that was telling him he had it all wrong. You know, he needed to get with the times. He needed to modernize, you know. No, he said there were certain truths that are always true. And he stood up for the truth.

And I think young people today aren't looking for wishy-washy, you know, which way is the wind blowing sort of guidance. They want someone who is willing to stand up for the truth, no matter what.

CADMAN: That's really his message to young people. You know, this is difficult. The gospel message is challenging, but the price, the result is great because it brings great joy to one's life and fulfillment. And that's what young people are looking for. They want meaning in their life.

ZAHN: These future priests aren't worried that the next pope's agenda will stray from John Paul's legacy.

CADMAN: Well, the second is John Paul II. The next Holy Father, his successor, will be a different pope altogether, a different person. And he'll bring to the papacy a different gift.

ZAHN: These seminarians look forward to the day when they can bring their talents to future parishioners.

GALVIS: The people need our service, our message.

MCINNIS: We have a very sad time in the church in recent years, the scandals. And you know, we don't need priests like that any more. We need holy priests.

CADMAN: Christ was pure humility. And our Holy Father has given this great example of humble service in the church. I think sort of the church of the future, we need humble priests, priests who are willing to serve.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And joining us now from Pittsburgh is Father John Bartunek, who was a seminary student when he first met Pope John Paul II. He has served mass with the pope, lives in Rome now, where he's studying for an advanced degree in more theology.

Thanks so much for being with us tonight.

I think one of the most interesting parts of your story is what happened in your life before you actually became ordained. You were an atheist. You converted to Catholicism because you were inspired by this pope, Pope John Paul II. How so?

FATHER JOHN BARTUNEK, LEGIONNAIRES OF CHRIST: Well, it was -- it was kind of a long story. But I was a college student studying in Rome, or studying in Italy for a year, my junior year overseas. And I was already a Christian at that point but I wasn't Catholic.

And I went to midnight mass with the Holy Father in St. Peter's Basilica. It was kind of a cultural event. And I got some seats up front close to the altar with the diplomatic corps. And I spent the entire three hours of the mass just gazing at this man, this spiritual giant. I didn't even know what the Catholic Church taught at that point, but I could tell that this man was in contact with God.

And he gave the sense of being a real man, being strong and knowing what he believed. And it stayed with me.

And a few months later, I was studying in another campus overseas in Krakow, Poland, where this -- at this time, Poland was still under communism. And I noticed there I was getting intrigued by the Catholic faith. And I noticed that the church, the Catholic Church, was the source of hope for these people as they suffered under the oppressive regime of communism.

And I noticed that they had pictures of Pope John Paul II everywhere, and statues. And I even visited a church that he had fought to have built in a new ideal socialist city outside of Krakow, which was supposed to have no churches. And I began to study the history of this man who had been -- kind of carried the torch of hope for an entire country and was now carrying it for an entire church. And I was intrigued, and he really drew me in.

But I think the thing, the more I got to know him, the more I got to know about him, the thing that really, really inspired me was he was such a fulfilled man. You know, a priest who was -- who was strong and courageous. And I kind of felt myself wanting to be like that, wanting to follow that path.

ZAHN: What -- what a lucky man you had to have been so inspired by that. I have so many more questions I want to ask you. If you would be kind enough to stand by, I would appreciate it. We're going to take a short break, and we will continue our conversation on the other side with Father Bartunek. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: You're looking at a live picture of St. Peter's Square. Just about five hours ago, the square filled with tens of thousands of people. Much fewer now, as you can see, lingering on, waiting for any information they can get from the Vatican. It's been almost 12 hours since we've had any official word on the pope's grave condition.

Before we went to the break, I was conversing with Father John Bartunek. He was a seminary student when he first met Pope John Paul II. His life has been altered considerably by that relationship. He lives in Rome, where he's now studying for an advanced degree in moral theology.

Welcome back. Thanks for standing by through the break.

Let's talk a little bit about how people might be surprised what you saw in the pope, outside of his official duties. Share some things, some anecdotes that might tickle us.

BARTUNEK: Well, the thing about this Holy Father when you meet him face to face, you spend time with him alone, is he just -- he makes you feel more alive.

When I had a chance to serve his mass in St. Peter's Basilica, when I was in seminary and studying in Rome, after the mass and the sacristy, he stayed there and he spoke with us and introduced himself to each one of us. And we had a chance to speak with him and be up close to him. And you just feel as if -- he looks into your eyes, and he doesn't say very much, necessarily, but you feel stronger because of it.

And I think it's because he -- he really believes in you. He believes that you can be what you always wanted to be, that your life can have meaning and be fulfilled. He communicates that, and he communicates it by the way he is and what he has done and what he's achieved, how he's been faithful to his own mission.

And of course, his sense of humor is -- he's -- he knows how to smile. And he's not afraid to smile. He's not afraid to cry, either. I remember when I went to World Youth Day in Chenstehova (ph), when he had World Youth Day in Poland, and there -- it was the first time that young people from the countries of the old Soviet bloc had -- were allowed to leave their country and come to another country.

And there we were, all gathered around this man, this old man, millions of us, about two and a half million of us from all different countries, speaking all different languages. And he was leading us in not only prayer but in celebration. It was intense. It was -- I was a college student at the time, and it felt like a big party. We were in the streets all night, and we were gathered around him. And he was -- he was our leader in so many different ways.

He just had -- I really believe it's because he -- he believes in you, you know? He thinks that you can be great. He has confidence in you. And so he communicates that.

ZAHN: That's a remarkable achievement. We really appreciate your sharing some joy with us this evening, a day where we've been focused on so much grim news. It was great for you to share those stories with us tonight, Father Bartunek. And good luck to you in your continued studies.

BARTUNEK: Thank you so much, Paula.

ZAHN: My pleasure.

We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: The White House says that President Bush and the first lady are keeping the pope in their thoughts and prayers tonight. Here's more from Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush last met with Pope John Paul II in Rome last June. They spoke privately for 15 minutes at the Vatican. It was their third meeting since Mr. Bush had become president and clearly significant.

The U.S. had invaded Iraq. As a result, Mr. Bush's approval ratings were sagging, both at home and abroad. Thousands of demonstrators were protesting in Rome's streets.

The pontiff, who vehemently opposed the Iraq war, called for the U.S. and Europe to put their differences over the war behind them.

The pope decried the September 11 attacks, and he also condemned the U.S.'s abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. But Mr. Bush earned praise from the pope for his socially conservative domestic policies, including his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage and a limit on federally funded stem cell research.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your Holiness, I would be honored if you would accept our Medal of Freedom.

MALVEAUX: President Bush awarded the pope the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the United States' highest civilian honor.

The president's last visit with the pontiff came just five months before election day, sparking some criticism in Washington at the time that the trip was politically motivated as an effort to win the Catholic vote.

But White House aides dismissed that accusation, saying it was an opportunity for the president to be with one of the world's greatest moral leaders.

BUSH: A devoted servant of God. His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, has championed the cause of the poor, the weak, the hungry, and the outcast.

MALVEAUX: Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we will wrap things up in a minute or two.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And that's it for all of us here. Please stay with CNN throughout the weekend for all the latest on the pope. Thanks for joining us tonight.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 1, 2005 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. Welcome. Thank you so much for being with us. As Larry mentioned, Aaron is on his way to Rome right now where Pope John Paul II is by al accounts from the Vatican close to the end of his life. Now, this was the scene for much of the day and evening at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City where tens of thousands of people gathered to pray and say their good- byes to the pope. The last communication from the Vatican came more than eight hours ago.
It is now early Saturday in Rome. That's where we find Christiane Amanpour standing by. Christiane, have you heard anything new from any of the officials of the Vatican?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, and we don't expect to. In fact, we've been told that the Vatican Press Agency, which has been up and functioning al evening, although not delivering any news, is going to be closed for a short period between about 6:30 a.m -- or rather 6:00 and 9:00 a.m., that's in about an hour for about three hours. So we don't, at this point, expect any further news. And the crowds that have gathered so, so greatly in Vatican Square overnight and after midnight have now dwindled. But before, just a couple of hours ago, people were here in strength to pay their last respects to the pope.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Throughout the night the crowds grew steadily in St. Peter's Square. They came to say good-bye to a man they called "Holy Father." Even as the light still shined from Pope John Paul's private apartment, the people here prayed for his soul to rest in eternal peace. A special rosary was recited earlier in the evening, and even the vicar of Vatican City signaled the end is near.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is what we need to do tonight, to gather around the sacred father. In this square, October 1978, with his young voice he cried out "Open, burst your doors open to Christ." Tonight Christ opens his doors to John Paul II.

AMANPOUR: The last formal medical bulletin from the Vatican came around 7:00 p.m. local time saying the pope's breathing is shallow, his blood pressure unstable and his organs gradually failing. Hungry for any information, journalists took the statements away to broadcast and print to the world. At one point the Italian press reporting the pope had already died. The Vatican quickly denied it but continues to prepare the faithful for his passing. CARDINAL RUINI, VICAR OF ROME (through translator): John Paul II is facing the most difficult test of his long and extraordinary life.

AMANPOUR: The last time the pope was seen in public mid week, he was visibly anguished and frustrated by his inability to communicate. His embrace of people all over the world had been a hallmark of his 26-year papacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (on camera): The longest-serving pope ever, the one who had made more visits and travels internationally, who had created such a huge figure on the international stage, a figure of great moral stature and charisma now lies dying. Certainly the people here who have flocked to this square for the last 24 hours believe that and they have come, as I say, to say good-bye.

Behind me, you can't see it, behind me, though, there are pillars leading up to St. Peter's square, and right now workers are putting up loud speakers on those pillars. We expect that to be for any announcement that might be coming, for the funeral, all the observances that will take place in the immediate aftermath of John Paul II's death.

ZAHN: And Christiane, as we continue to focus on this pope's fight for his life, I guess we can't help but be struck by how strong this man has been physically throughout his life and what he has endured, couple of assassination attempts, multiple surgeries, losing his gall bladder, his appendix. This is a man clearly with a fighting spirit, isn't he?

AMANPOUR: Absolutely, and I think that is what has motivated so many of the faithful. He has really been a giant morally and mentally inside his frail body for so many years. And people have seen how he has seemingly recovered from impossible odds over the years. But now they believe the end is near, that not even a miracle will be available this time to pull him back from the brink. That's why they have come. And it is a solemn time. I was stunned by how many tens of thousands of people were in Vatican Square earlier, and you could almost hear a pin drop. It was sad, it was somber, it was solemn.

Towards the end, though, there were groups of young people left who were playing guitar and singing, lighting candles, more in celebration of his life than, indeed, mourning at that point. But it is a moment where people know that an end of an era is coming. And they are waiting for what they know is inevitable and they are impressed by the strength and dignity of this man, even though many Catholics have found some of his teachings too conservative, too doctrinaire and too orthodox for their liking and some of the congregations and flocks around the world have dwindled, but still they recognize this was a great man.

ZAHN: You made an interesting point about the young people making music and saying prayers. This is the only pope these folks have known with this pope in power for some 25 years. Christiane, thanks so much. We'll be checking in with you a little bit later on this evening. Amid all the grim news, there has been no suggestion that pontiff will recover from this health crisis.

Joining us now from Atlanta is our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Dr., good to see you tonight. Could you put in perspective for us this evening what little we learned from the Vatican about the pope's grave condition?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Absolutely, Paula. Over the past 32 hours or so, we're getting more information than we normally get from the Vatican regarding his health condition. Started off with some concern about a urinary tract infection and also, concomitant with that a drop in blood pressure, which was concerning. This was yesterday, about 32 hours ago.

Then it appeared that he may be responding to antibiotics, but then shortly after that his condition became very serious. He was found to be in septic shock, which just basically means an overwhelming infection in the body. His cardiovascular system collapsed and as we heard throughout the day today, very serious blood pressure, unstable. And also that his heart and kidney function just insufficient.

Interestingly, Paula, it was about ten hours ago we got our last report, and it was the first report that didn't make any mention of the pope being conscious. The one before that said in fact that he had been participating. He was lucid as well. It seems all of his organ systems probably have taken a turn for the worse, probably irreversible anything reversible at this time, Paula.

ZAHN: And of course, at this hour, there's no way of understanding how long that process might take.

GUPTA: No, but there is data in the sense that other patients who have gone through this, obviously, the pope, 84 years old with significant medical problems. Anybody who is in septic shock, even an otherwise healthy person is in trouble as far as their health is concerned, about 30 percent or so patients may survive that, and that's without the advanced age and the medical problems that the pope has. So I think any medical person, any person would note that this is a very serious problem here.

ZAHN: Of course, one of the more severe things he faces is his Parkinson's disease. Do we know how that might further complicate this already grave medical situation?

GUPTA: The biggest concern for him for sure is the septic shock. That trumps anything else. But let me just tell you that it is not unusual for someone with Parkinson's to be more likely to develop an infection. Paula, when I heard about the high fever yesterday, they first thing I thought this was probably pneumonia. As it turns out, it was a urinary tract infection that subsequently spread to his blood and to the rest of his body.

The interesting thing is that Parkinson's can make you more likely to get the infection, and the infection can make your Parkinson's symptoms worse as well. So it's a vicious cycle. But I think most of that is probably moot at this point, given his septic shock. That is the most pressing health problem for him at this time, Paula.

ZAHN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so for the update. One of the first medical reports I think I understood today. Appreciate your input. Now as the world watches and waits and prays, of course, at this point, more of a gentle passing than just about anything else. These are quiet moments all over the world. In Atlanta and elsewhere today, daily mass became an opportunity for reflection on a remarkable papacy.

One parishioner calling the pope's courage under adversity a source of strength to her and her family. And in London, Cherie Blair, the prime minister's wife, took part in a special mass at Westminster Cathedral. Throughout his papacy, John Paul has devoted healing the rift between Catholic and Anglican churches.

There were also vigils all across Spain, home to more than 40 million Catholics and one of the more devout corners of Western Europe. John Paul was the first pope ever to visit Spain. And then in Iraq, where Christians of any stripe are a tiny minority, the faithful came to pray and remember a pope who championed tolerance among the many religions of the Middle East.

And it is in the countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain where sentiment has always run highest. Tonight that sentiment remains even as his hope for recovery begins to fade. When the moment arrives, the death of the pope, much like the death of a head of a state or even an American president, puts into motion a series of carefully orchestrated ceremonies all wrapped in ritual and tradition.

Jonathan Mann previews the process for choosing John Paul's successor.

And I just want you to know, there is nothing wrong with your television set. We're having problem getting the audio up in that piece. When we have it, we will bring it to you.

But in a moment, the early days before the pope was the pope, before he was even a humble parish priest. We'll break first. From New York, this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Just a moment ago we were talking about what happens when Pope John Paul dies, about some of the ritual and procedure that is followed. Again, we hope, Jonathan Mann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The gathering is called a conclave because the cardinals are considered locked in together conclave, with a key. Unable to communicate with the outside world in anyway, emerging only when they elect a new pope. Most people who visit the Vatican would hardly consider that punishment, but the clerics who gather for a papal conclave have sometimes found it exhausting. The voting is slow and repetitive, the living arrangements often improvised and uncomfortable. Conditions will be a bit better this time. Under John Paul II, the Vatican built St. Martha House, the Domus Santa Marta, a hotel for visiting nuns and clergy that will be emptied of its guests and restricted for the cardinals and officials attending the conclave. Like the other places where the cardinals will gather, it will be swept for microphones and listening devices. Its phone lines will be cut for the duration.

From Santa Marta, the cardinals will make their way each day to the Sistine Chapel, where they will meet to vote and probably vote again and again. In their first votes, perhaps as many of four of them a day, the cardinals will need to assemble a two-thirds majority in order to elect a pope. But depending on the pace of their balloting and other factors, the cardinals can decide after about 30 votes to elect a pope by a lesser margin, a simple majority. This was one of John Paul II's reforms. And it means if a determined group of cardinals can stay loyal to a candidate long enough, they stand a better chance of getting him elected. That new rule may be a key reason for a lengthy concave.

All through the conclave, each time the votes are cast and counted, the ballots are burned. The crowds gather at the Vatican Piazza St. Pietro will know that additives in the smoke rising from the Sistine Chapel will make it burn black for an inconclusive vote, white for a successful one. And shortly after they see white smoke, they will hear the first news. "Habamus Papam" "We have a pope." A man will walk out, as his predecessors have, to present himself urbi et orbi, to the city and the world. Jonathan Mann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: A process, as Jonathan pointed out, that has been honored for a long time. Now at just about 16 minutes past the hour, let's check in with Erica Hill with Headline News for the rest of the headlines this evening. Hi, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Paula. An FBI search of the former home of convicted Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols had turned up explosive materials dating back to before the 1995 attack. A spokesman says the search uncovered various explosive components, including blasting caps. Nichols was living in the Kansas home at the time of the bombing but has not lived their for years. He's serving multiple life prison sentences for his role in the attack that killed 168 people.

Former national security adviser Samuel Berger admits he showed poor judgment. He pleaded guilty on Friday to taking classified documents from the National Archives. Federal prosecutors say they will not ask for a jail sentence but will recommend a $10,000 fine. Berger told a federal judge he intentionally destroyed some of the documents dealing with terror threats during the 2000 millennium celebration. He will be formally sentenced in July.

Well, you're likely going to have to dig even deeper, maybe around the seats of your car, to pay for your next fill up. Analysts say gas prices will probably average more than 2.25 a gallon within just the next few weeks. Oil prices hit a record high on Friday, topping $57 a barrel and a report from investment bank Goldman Sachs says oil prices could surge as high as $105 a barrel. Another reason to break out the bike or the walking shoes.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: I was thinking the same thing. Yet another incentive to get out there and jog. Thanks so much, Erica.

Millions all over the world tonight are keeping a very special vigil for the pope as the final hours of his life unfold. The public outpouring of support is a stark contrast to his humble beginnings and the pain and tragedy he endured as a child, invisible and alone. Chris Burns is standing by live now in Krakow, Poland and has more in the small town where the first chapters of the pope's life were written. Good evening, Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol (sic). We're here in Krakow, Poland, actually, where the pope became priest, archbishop, went up the line among the ranks here. And a few hangers- on here outside the archbishop's residence where the pope used to speak through the window in very intimate exchanges with the people here. And last night we saw very emotional scenes with thousands of people with candles, incense and tears, singing to that window from which the pope actually had sung to them. And his is what we'll probably be seeing more of today as people remember this man as just a car's drive, an hour's drive away here, grew up in a very small town with -- this man that they later called uncle.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): Karol Wojtyla never forgot his roots. As Pope John Paul II, he returned triumphantly again and again to visit his humble beginnings, each visit drawing an outpouring for Wadowice's favorite son. The pope spoke of a cream pastry he loved as a kid. Bakeries couldn't make it fast enough for his admirers. A stark contrast from his days as a youth, growing up in a modest apartment that lay in the shadow of the town's main church. Now a museum, Karol Wojtyla's birthplace documents an arduous lifelong trek to the top.

Karol Wojtyla was born here May 18th, 1920. His father, Karol, Sr., was an army officer, his mother, Emilia a schoolteacher. The Wojtyla's were strict Catholics. They didn't share the anti-Semitic views of many Poles. In a town with 8,000 Catholics and 2,000 Jews, Karol Wojtyla had Jewish classmates. Many of them perished in the Holocaust. Childhood friends say death in Wojtyla's family forced young Karol to quickly become a man. His mother died of heart and kidney ailments when he was nine. Three years later tragedy struck again.

SZCZEPAN MOGLIENICKI, CLASSMATE (through translator): I would say he lost his childhood at 12 when he lost his brother. There was no youthful folly in him. Even when he played sports, he was very concentrated. But, of course, he had a lot of passion. He was a very noble person and he expressed things in a very noble way, but there was no folly. BURNS: After graduating from high school, Wojtyla went to Krakow to study literature and philosophy at Kagalonian (ph) University. He also joined an experimental theater. Danuta Michalowska first met him there in 1938

DANUTA MICHALOWSKA, ACTRESS (through translator): I was in high school. He was 18, strong, handsome. You could sense this strong personality.

BURNS: After Hitler's army invaded Poland the following year, Wojtyla worked at a quarry to avoid deportation to Germany as a slave laborer. He secretly studied to become a priest, though he continued wish his acting. Michalowska remembers how Wojtyla came dressed in his overalls from the quarry and told her to buy this book "King Spirit" for a performance.

MICHALOWSKA: He had this inner radiance, but he didn't lose time on small talk. He didn't participate in our jokes, and he wouldn't flirt. Maybe some women were disillusioned, but I couldn't imagine this kind of contact.

BURNS: From youth to adulthood, Wojtyla developed a spirit and stamina he would need as history's most traveled pope. His favorite sports, hiking, skiing, rowing, soccer and hockey.

MOGLIENICKI: He made use of every hour. When he played soccer, he sacrificed himself. He was full of passion, and he played as goalkeeper, and everyone was shouting his name because he would make every effort to defend the goal. He also played hockey. At one time the puck hit him on the brow. He had a scar from it.

BURNS: One of many scars from youth, physical and emotional, that gave Karol Wojtyla the resolve to leave his mark on this earth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: Now, Karol Wojtyla actually spoke to the people when he came back here as pope in 1979 to a land that was a communist land where he said "You can change this land, this land." And this is what people remember as they flock here today as they look to this window with which they spoke before. Now in this window is a black crucifix with a golden Jesus on it. Back to you, Paula.

ZAHN: What a beautiful look, though, at the early stages of his life, something that a lot of us hadn't been exposed to much up until this point. Thank you so much, Chris. Joining us now from Vatican City is CNN Vatican analyst John Allen. He also happens to be Rome correspondent for "The National Catholic Reporter."

Good to see you again, John. If you would, I'd like you to take us back earlier today when you as a reporter were trying to sort through the fact and fiction of what you were hearing through the Vatican, what you were hearing through private sources, when one news agency went with a report that the pope had actually died.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yeah, hi, Paula. Good to see you as well. Yes. You're absolutely right. The media, like nature, abhors a vacuum. And although the Vatican, by its own standards in the last 48 hours or so has actually been remarkably forthcoming about the pope's condition, it certainly has by no means fed the appetite of a 24 hour a day seven day a week news industry. And when there is a paucity of information to work on, as is the present moment. The last Vatican moment was some almost 11 hours ago now, what tends to take over is speculation, rumor and innuendo.

That's also fueled by the fact that the Italian press has many strengths, but a concern for factual accuracy isn't always top of the list. And so the truth is that in this environment you are going to have many false leads. And, of course, in this moment when there is great concern for the pope, and the Vatican is, in essence, on autopilot, awaiting news of the pope's condition, it's very difficult to get through to senior, well-placed, authoritative sources quickly who can put the rumors to rest. And so they tend to take on a life of their own.

That's why throughout this day and throughout the week that's led up to this moment, I and others have been trying to strike as many notes of caution as humanly possible of let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's not follow every wisp of the wind that comes along. Because the truth is the last couple of weeks, Paula, have simply been filled with one rumor about the pope's condition after another and I think it's been important to exercise some discipline to make sure we don't get ahead of the facts.

ZAHN: So if we are going to be as truthful as we can with our audience tonight, what is it that we do know at this hour about the pope's grave condition?

ALLEN: Well, Paula, quite honestly, what we know is what the Vatican is telling us, and up to this point we have been taking that at face value. That is, we had a noon time briefing yesterday with a Vatican spokesperson, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who gave us some insight into what was clearly the pope's failing health at that time, indicating as of that time, that is, roughly noon Rome time yesterday, the pope was still conscious and still lucid.

We had another written communique from the Vatican last evening at around 6:30 Rome time in which they indicated at that stage that the pope was facing multiple, multiple complications. His breathing was very shallow. And he hinted that the pope was only intermittently conscious, aware of what was going on. Since then, to be honest with you, we've had no further information from the Vatican, and we've been simply repeating and recycling and expanding upon and unpacking those two Vatican communiques. And to tell you the truth, that's about it.

ZAHN: Briefly in closing here, John, you have said that the Vatican so far has been amazingly forthright. Is there any expectation that this press office would withhold information from you at this hour?

ALLEN: Well, you know, I've always said that when the Vatican puts out a bulletin, you can assume everything in it is true and you can usually assume it's not all the truth. That is to say the Vatican has - and this isn't just this pontificate -- historically, has always tried to downplay and minimize to the pope's health and protect his privacy as much as possible. I think, Paula, frankly we can assume there's probably some of that going on here tonight as well.

ZAHN: John Allen, thank you for giving us a clearer picture of what we might be facing here tonight. Thanks so much.

Back home in a moment, how the pope changed American Catholicism and how he didn't. A break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And you're looking at a glorious picture, or were, of the St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City. New York, of course, home to one of the largest Roman Catholic communities on the planet. St. Patrick's Cathedral right at the heart of it.

The cathedral, under any circumstances, is an inspiring place, but under these circumstances, it becomes something else yet again. Adaora Udoji joins us from just outside. She has been out there for many hours and has had the opportunity to talk with a number of the pope's followers. And she had this report for us now.

Hi, Adaora.

ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Paula.

I think you're exactly right. It is sort of the central focal point for Catholics in this city. And people have been milling about for several hours now, even though the church has been closed. All day they were also coming in, they were going inside the church, they were sending their prayers and good wishes to the Pope John Paul II in this very trying time for him.

And there's a real feeling of community. I mean, we heard that over and over again talking to people from Texas, Ohio, Canada, many tourists were here. But also many New Yorkers. And overall, there was just a general sense of a very reflective atmosphere.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1995 when he came from Giants Stadium, and I'm from Jersey originally, so I went to see him at Giants Stadium. I was on the lower level, and the Pope Mobile was coming down. And I ran down to the front and waved. And he's going by and waving at everybody.

Of course, as soon as he passed me, he turned the other way, but I still felt the presence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get people together from different cultures, and I would say union, union is the word.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

UDOJI: And we talked to several dozen people later this evening after the church had closed who said that they would definitely be coming back tomorrow, Paula, because they are looking for a vigil, some sort of way of coming together and acknowledging what's happening with the pope at this time.

ZAHN: It's so interesting. You talked with so many of the faithful, the Catholic faithful. And earlier today, I was talking to a woman who waited over an hour, who's not even Catholic, a woman who is not normally a churchgoer, and she felt a great need to drop by St. Patrick's Cathedral to say a prayer for the pope. So, it's heart warming to see the level of response and outpouring of love for this man. Thank you, Adaora, so much.

And while the pope's charisma has often been visible, in his public appearance, those who know the private side of the man have a much deeper and richer perspective to share.

Joining me now from Washington D.C., Sister Mary Anne Walsh who actually travelled with the pope as part of the Vatican press corps for nearly a decade. She's also written a book about him.

So good to see you tonight. Thank you so much for joining us.

SISTER MARY ANNE WALSH, FRM. VATICAN PRESS CORPS: Thank you.

ZAHN: So sister Mary Anne, what might people be surprised by in private time what the pope is actually like.

WALSH: Well, I think they would be surprised that at a man with so many concerns on his shoulders would have time to be such a personable person. One example that always sticks out in my mind in Denver in '93, it was Friday night, and we had had a television hook up for the pope to Mile High Stadium, where the young people were going through the stations of the cross. And at the end of it, it was, you know, well after 10:00. He had a long day. And When it was over, he went around to thank everybody in the room.

Now, we were all there in a technical capacity. And I remember saying to somebody, you know, he didn't have to do that. We're not important people. And the person said to me, but to him we were important.

And I think that kind of personal reaching out to people, even people who, you know, generally blend into the wallpaper, that kind of technical position, was the measure of the man of a real thoughtfulness.

ZAHN: You hear that over and over again, what a generous soul he had. Did you ever have the opportunity to have any private conversations? I know you spent a lot of time with him on that first trip to the United States.

WALSH: Well, the private conversations were really more of the journalist type of conversations. But he loves journalists, and it would be the kind of banter that a great person would have with journalists, but wouldn't have it in the public eye. For example, we got of a plane one time in Latin America, and he said, well, are you still hanging in? It was laughable. He was 20, 30 years older than the rest of us and yet he could tease us about not having enough stamina. It was that kind of informality. We knew he liked us, and we certainly liked him.

I saw even more the reaching out to young people as if the pope reaches out to people who can't reach to him. It's kind of humorous on all of these papal visits, the Secret Service, especially in our country, would have it scripted right down to the second, and the pope would always throw their schedule completely off because if he saw a little child or a person with a handicapping condition, that couldn't go to him, he would go to them. So he would break away, and then the schedule, and the Secret Service would start sweat, because things were not going the way they were supposed to. But the Holy Father cared that he reached out to those persons. That's where his emphasis was.

ZAHN: And what do you think those young people, many of whom were disenfranchised, saw in him?

WALSH: Well, I think they saw someone who loved them and they loved him back. You know, in Toronto, it was a wonderful experience for World Youth Day a couple years ago. And I was a little worried beforehand because we had all the reports of the pope being ill. And we even were thinking you had to have a lift to bring him down from the plane.

And he came off the plane. All of a sudden we saw him walking down. Then he went to the microphone, and we really could understand him, even though previously he'd been difficult to understand.

And I said to his aides, something happened. Has there been a change in his medicine? What's going on here?

And they said, no, it's the emotion, the emotion of being with young people brought a breakthrough for him. He could break through the barriers of speech and the limitation that Parkinson's were bringing on to him. It was that great emotional feeling when he saw young people, and young people saw him.

ZAHN: I guess one thing that has struck me tonight, Sister Mary Anne, is hearing from these young people who basically say, look, this pope has been in power some 25 years. It's the only pope we've known.

WALSH: And he's also the only leader that I can recall who has ever reached out to young people. We've had leaders for centuries. He was the only one who ever thought to call the youth of the world together.

And it was I real teaching experience to us in the United States. We used to refer to the young people as the church of tomorrow. And after World Youth Day in Denver, we began to say no, this is the church of now. The pope recognized that before anyone.

ZAHN: What a wonderful part of his legacy. Thank you so much Sister Mary Anne Walsh for joining us tonight. You really gave us an inside look at a part of the life that very few of us knew about the pope.

Traditional in his beliefs, Pope John Paul II has also been a modern force in the Catholic Church. In a moment we're going to look at the considerable ground he has broken. From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Welcome back. When Pope John Paul II was elected a quarter of a century ago, the world was a very different place. Cable news didn't exist, for one thing, nor did the Internet. Walkmans hadn't even been invented yet, let alone iPods.

Throughout his pontificate, John Paul has had plenty of opportunities to break new ground. And he has taken them. Here's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the very beginning, Pope John Paul II's papacy broke new ground. He was the first non-Italian pope in 455 years.

WILTON WYNN, JOURNALIST: The time had come they could no longer find an Italian of sufficient stature to win the majority of the votes in the conclave. They had to look around.

VINCI: And they found a man who, for more than a quarter of a century, continued to set precedents, not just on far-reaching religious issues, but also on more everyday matters, giving the papacy a whole new image.

Meeting religious leaders from all over the world, John Paul II reached out in ways once considered impossible or even heretical, pushing the boundaries.

He became the first pope to visit a synagogue in Rome, to pray at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. In Syria, the first to visit a mosque, urging Christians, Jews and Muslims to work together for peace in the Middle East, turning the church into one looking beyond just the Catholic religion.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: He's made it into an evangelizing church, where the premium no longer is on sort of being obsessed with our internal debates.

VINCI: He was also the first pope ever to be received at the White House, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)1979. The president was Jimmy Carter.

He traveled to places no other pontiff had ever been before -- 179 countries, beginning with Mexico in 1979, only months after being elected, covering a papal record, 700,000 miles, three times the distance from here to the moon. And whether riding a gondola in Venice, wearing a sombrero in Mexico, or enjoying local traditions, this pope always added a touch of style.

At the same time, the pope often denounced what he called the dangers of modern Western society -- genetic engineering, cloning, gay marriages. Yet, he implemented the church's own form of globalization, inaugurating the first Vatican Web site, and becoming the first pope ever to send an e-mail.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And as Alessio just reported, Pope John Paul II has reached out to other faiths and to other branches of Christianity. And joining us now from Plymouth, Massachusetts is Reverend Peter Gomes, a Baptist minister and a professor of Christian morals at Harvard Divinity School. Welcome, Reverend Gomes.

REV. PETER GOMES, PROFESSOR, HARVARD DIVINITY SCHOOL: Thank you.

ZAHN: So what is the relationship this Catholic pope had with non-Catholics?

GOMES: Well, I think it's phenomenal that non-Catholics tended to regard the pope as part of their universe, and I think he's probably the first pope in history which -- to which people had a claim beyond being members of the Roman Catholic Church. And so I think the sense that the pope belongs to everybody was made real in this present pontificate.

ZAHN: And do you think that simply came from what you see as his unrivaled moral authority?

GOMES: Well, it's not just his unrivaled moral authority, it is the fact that he actually reached out to people. He decided that the church was broader than the confines of the Vatican. He took initiatives. He became a part of the global community, and I think in doing so, laid claim upon the moral interest of a lot of people. Not everybody necessarily agreed with his moral positions, but I think everybody was grateful that there was one voice that spoke out from this point of view in a very chaotic world.

ZAHN: So when you look at his contribution as a spiritual leader, what is it that you think will be the most enduring part of that legacy?

GOMES: Well, I think he raised the bar of spirituality, if you'll permit that formulation. That is so say he made it possible for all sorts of people to think about the public expression of religion and its relation to contemporary affairs, whether it had to do with traditional Roman Catholic teaching, or issues that went beyond that in terms of world citizenship and world responsibility. And those were issues that I think attracted attention well beyond the confines of the Roman Catholic Church. ZAHN: You've lauded this pope so much for bridging together some of the gaps of -- divides we've seen for years during -- between various faiths. Is there anything, any area where he fell short in that regard?

GOMES: Well, I think there were many who hoped that he would advance the Vatican II agenda, and there were times when it appeared very clear that he was less interested in the kind of liturgical reforms that Pope John XXIII initiated. So I think in that sense, he was regarded as less progressive than some of his more immediate predecessors. But I think that notwithstanding, he was able to set an agenda that drew an awful lot of people outside of the Roman Catholic community, and that was very important.

ZAHN: Reverend Gomes, what else will you remember this pope for?

GOMES: Well, I will remember the fact that he insisted when he came to Boston in 1979 -- and I happened to represent Harvard University on that occasion on Boston Common -- he insisted that the clergy of non-Catholic traditions be included in the ceremonies, and that was really, in 1979, that was a remarkably gracious and inclusive gesture. And I remember, as a conspicuous Protestant on that occasion, feeling as welcomed into the papal entourage as any faithful priest of the archdiocese. And that struck me as a new and very welcome note in a world that had not always been as hospitable as that.

ZAHN: And a generous note to end on this evening. Reverend Gomes, thank you so much for your time and your reflections tonight.

GOMES: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: My pleasure.

Just ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we're going to be talking with the editor of the Catholic magazine "America," as well as the president of the Catholic University. This is a very special edition of NEWSNIGHT, on CNN. We leave you with a live shot as the sun is just coming up in Rome this morning, 5:47 a.m. local time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And if you're watching your clocks tonight, and I know you are, we have jumped up on just about 10 minutes before the hour. That means it's time to check in with Erica Hill at Headline News.

Hi, Erica.

HILL: Hi, Paula.

One of the other big stories, of course, of the week, that of Terri Schiavo. Tonight we're learning Michael Schiavo and in-laws will be mourning the death of Terri separately. Schiavo plans to cremate his wife's remains and bury the ashes in Pennsylvania where she grew up. Terri's parents Bob and Mary Schindler want her buried in Florida, but they don't plan a court fight over their daughter's remains. They have a scheduled a funeral mass for Tuesday. The medical examiner completed the autopsy of Terri Schiavo today. Results, however, will probably not be released for several weeks.

Former CIA director, George Tenet is disputing a presidential commission's report, which claims he was warned that a key source on Iraq's biological weapons had a reputations for making things up. Tenant and former acting CIA director, John McLaughlin issued lengthy statements saying, they were not alerted before the war to concerns about the source, code name Curveball. The commission found that that information from Curveball was the centerpiece to the U.S. case to United Nations about the need to attack Iraq.

Police in Spain arrested 12 men on Friday who may be linked to terrorism. And also may have times to some suspects in last year's Madrid train bombing. A suspected al Qaeda spokesman is also in Spanish custody after being extradited from Belgium. Spanish authorities say the Madrid attacks were apparently made in his name. And that is the latest from Headline News.

Paula, back to you.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Erica. See you in the next hour.

In conversations throughout the day today, the word serenity was heard over and over again. Both the advisers to the pope and a spokesman for his holiness, said that as the end draws near, the pope has been both peaceful and I guess, accepting potentially of his fate.

Joining us right now is the president of Catholic University, Father David O'Donnell and Father Reese who is the editor of "American Magazine."

Both of your dathia's (ph) just went away like that, poof. Good to see both of you, gentlemen, particularly at this time of such great concern about the pope's condition. Father O'Donnell, what is it you think that the American public might not know about the pope that they should think about.

FATHER DAVID O'CONNELL, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: Well, that's a very interesting question. I think that, especially today, as the reports came forward, the notion of serenity, the notion of peace that fills this man's soul as he approaches the end of his life demonstrates, you know, a great -- a great gentleness of spirit and a great sense of the presence of God in his life. And while we might presume that in the life of a clergyman, especially, in the life of the pope, it's something that I think at times is not -- is not talked about that much. I think people tend to emphasize maybe some of his political involvements and some of his ideological involvements. But this a really -- really and truly a man of God.

ZAHN: Father Reese, how has this pope inspired you?

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA MAGAZINE": Well, you know, I was thinking about that. So many things about him. His conviction, his being willing to speak out on various issues, which -- which you know, people on both the right and the left disagree with him. You know, he was against abortion, but he was also against capital punishment. You know, he was -- you know, President Bush talks about the culture of life in Terri Schiavo, but the pope was also against the war in Iraq. This is a pope who has talked about issues from conviction rather than just what he thinks the public wants to hear.

ZAHN: So, you're telling me tonight he was not a poll reader.

REESE: No. No.

ZAHN: He didn't...

REESE: He was a pole, but he was not a poll reader.

ZAHN: But he didn't really put that into his assessment.

REESE: No. No.

ZAHN: That wasn't something that overly concerned him -- public perceptions.

REESE: The other thing that really I admired him for was admitting the mistakes of the church. I think, he shocked people during the millennium celebrations in the year 2000 when he stood up and apologized -- it was like for 30 different things that the church had done through the centuries, especially, of course, for the persecution of the Jews, the sins of Christians against Jews. This was extremely important. And apologizing for the crusades and for the treatment of Galileo, this great scientist who was persecuted by the church. You know, the church does -- in the past would never admit that it did anything wrong. But we, as Christians, I mean, if Jesus tells us anything, it's that we're all sinners. We all make mistakes. And we have to confess our sins, whether it's people in the pews, clergy or even popes.

ZAHN: Father O'Connell, how much courage has it taken for the pope to make those kind of admissions.

O'CONNELL: Well, I think, as Father Reese had mentioned, it took great courage on his part. Again, this is a man -- you asked earlier, you know, what are the things about him that maybe people don't realize? This is a man who is also made of tremendous humility. His whole life experience has taken him through many, many things. And he himself has grown as a result of those experiences. He's a humble man, and I think that contributed very much to his willingness to acknowledge the church, not only as divine, but also as human, as father Reese has pointed out.

ZAHN: Father O'Connell, I guess the other thing that moved me tonight, we had Sister Mary Anne on earlier who traveled in the Press Corp at the Vatican with the pope for many, many years. And she was saying there was a stop over in a trip in Denver during one of the popes visits, where he made a point of talking to people involved in the technical crew. And she said they sort of stood in the back of the room and said, well, he didn't need to come over and address me. But he had a genuine concern about how they were all doing. O'CONNELL: Yes, I think, in his mind, his heart and his eyes, no person is too small or too insignificant for him to spend time with. And that was one of his great, great qualities. He also had a tremendous sense of humor, and that is also something people may don't realize about him.

ZAHN: Well, it's nice to talk to you both about the pope tonight, Father O'Connell and Thomas Reese. And did I finally get the name of your magazine right?

REESE: America...

ZAHN: Editor "America magazine." Sorry about that. Thank you, again, for your reflections.

In a moment, from an assassins bullet to a fight with cancer, and the of course the Parkinson's disease. The pope's very public struggle with pain and adversity. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Good evening and welcome. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

If you are just joining us, this is a special edition of "Newsnight." I'm Paula Zahn.

It is 11:00 p.m. here in New York. Aaron Brown is now on his way to Rome, where Pope John Paul II is by all accounts, close to death.

This was the scene earlier tonight at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City, where tens of thousands of people kept vigil all day long, praying for the Pope, saying their goodbyes.

The Vatican earlier today confirming that the Pope is gravely ill; his condition declining. The last communication from church officials came more than 11 hours ago.

Let's go straight to Rome now where Christiane Amanpour is standing by as the sun is coming up in Rome this morning. What can you observe from your vantage point tonight?

AMANPOUR: Well, certainly that the crowds outside, the tens of thousands who really swelled Vatican Square earlier have now dwindled to virtually no one. But it is assumed that once day breaks, once the day wears on, people will gather again. Because this has been a long vigil for a Pope that they believe they're here to say goodbye to.

It's almost now, a bit of a macabre, morbid waiting game, as one waits for formal word. As you said, the last communique was many, many hours ago and it's not expected that there will be another one until there is news of his passing.

Of course, that might change if this takes longer than several more hours. Then, perhaps, the Vatican will feel that it has to say something in the interim. But certainly the Vatican Press Agency, which had been manned for many, many hours and into the wee hours of this morning, we were told by our producer there, it's closing now and for the next three hours or so to get some rest and to get the place back into order before they start up again.

But even though people were there, there was no information coming overnight: none from the officials and none into the early morning hours. And so, it really is a watch and wait game now and people, as I say, believe that this is the end for the Pope. They have seen him struggle back and fight back from many attempts on his life, many bouts with severe illness. And certainly, in these last few months of his final illness, he has really struggled.

But now, many of the people I talked to in the Square in earlier hours, said that they felt that this was a somber and sad moment, that this was a moment where they needed to give their support, their prayers, their comfort and love to the Pope, as he prepares to pass on to the eternal life, as Catholics, of course, believe that it is not death, but the beginning of eternal life.

So, that is what they're waiting to hear.

Paula?

ZAHN: And Christiane, once there is ultimately an announcement of his death, what kind of process will we see?

AMANPOUR: Well, there's a very formal and entrenched process that has been through the ages of the papacy and there will be a situation where a cardinal calls his name, that the papal apartments are sealed. That then it will be announced to the public his death. And then the period of mourning, the funeral, which needs to take place, according to tradition, between four to six days afterwards.

The gathering of the cardinals to elect a new pope, between 15 and 20 days after his death, and then the election of the new pope. So, there are many formal rituals that are in place and awaiting the moment to start to get underway.

ZAHN: Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much for the update.

We should remind you all earlier today, the Pope's Vicar General for Vatican City told the crowd at St. Peter's Square, quote, "this evening or this night, Christ opens the door to the Pope," unquote.

There has been no suggestion by the Vatican that recovery is even a possibility. But just how close to death the Pope may be, remains unclear.

Joining us now from Atlanta, Senior Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Doctor, if you would, sift through what we think we know about the Pope's grave condition at this hour.

GUPTA: Yes, sure Paula. This really started a couple months ago when he was hospitalized with the flu for 10 days. He subsequently had a breathing tube placed in two weeks after being released from the hospital. And then a feeding tube, sort of, gradual, slow, but progressive symptoms over the past couple of months.

But most recently, though, Paula, of course, his urinary tract infection that people have been focusing so much on yesterday. That happened almost 34 hours ago now. A significant infection at that point.

It developed what is known as septic shock. That is when you essentially have an overwhelming infection. The bacteria gets into the blood stream; causes a collapse of the vascular system; all the blood vessels, the heart, not working as well. And then, within a couple of hours, a very serious condition.

We were told at noon, and that was the last communicational, 11 hours ago now, Paula, that essentially all the organs had started to fail. Anything that you could possibly measure wasn't headed in the right direction. It was all seeming to be heading in a worse direction.

That is what we know. It's not very much, now over the last 11 hours, but knowing what we do about septic shock, things probably have continued to get worse, in terms of his organ function and his brain function, as well, Paula.

ZAHN: So, we don't want to create a sense of false hope, or try to read things into these announcements, we don't know, but you're a doctor, you've looked at studies. How long can any patient in a typical condition like this carry on?

GUPTA: Well, a couple days maximum, Paula. And most of these studies that we looked at today when we tried to do our homework on this, it looked at people who really, were otherwise healthy and then developed septic shock.

You remember, the Pope is 84 years old; he has a significant medical history. For him to recover from septic shock, I think it's not very likely at all. And I'm not trying to be too definitive one way or the other, because you can never be sure, but I think it's just very likely at all, just given his age and these other medical problems.

Also, Paula, as you pointed out, he has not been taken to the hospital. All the best numbers, in terms of recovery are people who are getting intensive care in an intensive care unit. And that's not the case here with the Pope.

ZAHN: And I was asking a priest earlier this evening, Dr. Sanjay, what he thought that indicated and he said that he believes he's at the point of his life, where he's reconciled what is to come and he's ready to let go.

GUPTA: Yes, we were thinking one of two things: either that, he himself did not want to go to the hospital; medically it could have been that he just was too unstable to go to the hospital. Either reason, neither one of them bode very well, Paula.

ZAHN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

ZAHN: I know you've had a long day, appreciate your trying to piece together all this for us, tonight.

GUPTA: Thank you.

ZAHN: When the moment finally comes, as Christiane mentioned a couple minutes ago, a lot happens, much of it behind closed doors. And with a look at that process right, here's Jonathan Mann.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): The gathering is called a conclave, because the cardinals are considered locked into together "conclave," with a key; unable to communicate with the outside world in any way, emerging only when they elect a new pope.

Most people who visit the Vatican would hardly consider that punishment, but the clerics who gather for a papal conclave have, sometimes, found it exhausting. The voting is slow and repetitive, the living arrangements often improvised and uncomfortable.

Conditions will be a bit better this time. Under John Paul II, the Vatican built St. Martha House, the Domus Santa Marta, a hotel for visiting nuns and clergy that will be emptied of its guests and restricted to the cardinals and officials attending the conclave.

Like the other places where the cardinals where gather, it will be swept for microphones and listening devices; its phone lines will be cut for the duration.

From Santa Marta, the cardinals will make their way each day to the Sistine Chapel, where they will meet to vote and probably vote again and again. In their first votes, perhaps as many as four of them a day, the cardinals will need to assemble a two-thirds majority in order to elect a pope. But depending on the pace of their balloting and other factors, the cardinals can decide after about 30 votes to elect a pope by a lesser margin, a simple majority.

This was one of John Paul II's reforms and it means that if a determined group of cardinals can stay loyal to a single candidate long enough, they stand a better chance of getting him elected. That new rule may be a key reason for a lengthy conclave.

All through the conclave, each time the votes are cast and counted, the ballots are burned. The crowds who gather in the Vatican's Piazza Santa Pietro will know that additives in the smoke rising from the Sistine Chapel will make it burn black for an inconclusive vote, white for a successful one. And shortly after they see white smoke, they will hear the first news. UNIDENTIFIED FORMER VATICAN SPOKESMAN: Habamus Papam!

MANN: Habamus Papam: We have a pope.

A man will walk out as his predecessors have, to present himself, Urbi et Orbe, to the city and the world.

Jonathan Mann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And in a moment, we're going to take a look at how John Paul is remembered in his hometown and the role he played in setting it free from communism.

A break first. This is "Special Edition" of Newsnight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Some adoring images of Pope John Paul II.

What will be a cornerstone of his legacy is his pivotal role in helping topple Soviet communist rule. He did it without armies, weapons, or violence. It was a moral commitment he made as soon as he became pope.

More details now from Chris Burns, who is in Krakow, Poland tonight. Good evening, Chris, or good morning your time.

BURNS: Good morning, as it were. Yes, Paula. Dawn now, but throughout much of the night, we see just a few candles left, but through much of the night, we had thousands of people here, who were remembering the Pope, including a mother of 30 years old, Anna, who came with her daughter, five years old.

She was in that crowd and she said that she thought it important for her daughter to see what she, when she was five years old, she saw the Pope come for the first time in 1979 inspire this country and this is what she wanted her daughter to see was the end of this era, she said, what she felt was the greatest man in Poland's time today.

And she is among those here who feel that this man inspired them to a peaceful, velvet revolution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: The pilgrimage of the Black Madonna: Poland's biggest annual religious event. It's centered around a painting that symbolizes resistance to countless invasions.

During the communist era, the future pope, then-Archbishop Karol Wojtyla, faced down the regime by leading mass here, in a combination of religion and nationalism.

The first key test of will between Wojtyla and the Soviet-backed regime came in the town of Nova Huta. Built by the communists as a model steel town with Stalinist housing blocks. Wojtyla backed efforts to establish a church here.

It's called the Lord's Ark, built in the form of a ship in the middle of what was then, a sea of red. It was Karol Wojtyla's first victory against a communist regime. To build a church in the city the government tried so hard to keep godless.

For years, Wojtyla would lead open-air mass on the barren site. The priest, who would later leave the church, was there when thousands attended one freezing Christmas Eve in 1965. It began with a song, "God is Born."

FATHER JOZEF GORZELANY, POLISH PRIEST (through interpreter): Someone in the crime shouted the second line, "and the power is crumbling," he said.

And people started repeating the shout. "The power is crumbling." Wojtyla repeated it, "The power is crumbling." And there will be a church built in Nova Huta.

BURNS: More churches would follow as Wojtyla took advantage of a weakening regime, struggling with a declining economy. When Wojtyla became pope, he vowed that the so-called "Church of Silence" in the Soviet Bloc would no longer hold its tongue.

Meanwhile, Polish workers staged more strikes for higher wages and against price increases. The independent trade union, Solidarity, was born with Wojtyla their spiritual leader.

ADAM BONIECKI, EDITOR, CATHOLIC WEEKLY (through translator): I think when he saw his picture at the Gdansk Shipyards; he discovered he was their spiritual godfather he says.

BURNS: Solidarity founder and former president Lech Walesa says the Pope accelerated the movement peacefully.

LECH WALESA, FORMER PRESIDENT, SOLIDARITY (through translator): We, without him, would have started much, much later and with a lot of blood.

BURNS: But those who worked closely with Wojtyla insist he had no master plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It wasn't at all, a strategy of struggle with communism. The strategy concerned spiritual development of his flock.

BURNS: And perhaps, most of all, by inspiring his flock to yearn for spiritual and personal freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: Now, one anecdote from that Turya back then was General Wojciech Jaruzelski, who was the president of the time, his knees were shaking when he met the Pope back then. And, if you can consider just last night there was a mass in Warsaw, where the former communist president, Mr. Kwasniewski, as well as his prime minister attended a mass in honor of the pope. You can see, really, how deep and how far that respect goes.

ZAHN: He certainly millions of people.

Chris Burns, thanks so much.

Once again, we go back to Rome to check in with CNN Vatican Analyst, John Allen, who is also a correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter.

Good morning, John. Anything new from the Vatican or from your sources at this hour, on the Pope's grave condition?

ALLEN: Nothing official from the Vatican, Paula. Their last communique was some 12 hours ago, indicating the Pope was facing a failure, a health failure on multiple fronts: that his breathing had become very shallow. The statement actually hinted he was only intermittently conscious.

And of course, it's only early morning here, Rome time. So, it's only been in the last 45 minutes or so we've had the opportunity to try to make contact with some Vatican officials, who tell us that the Pope continues to be quite near death. but there does not appear to be any significant movement since the details that were given to us last evening by the Vatican.

We're obviously here on a wait-and-see mode.

ZAHN: Let's talk a little bit about this Pope's legacy. The positive and the negative: could you quickly tick off a couple of those in each column?

ALLEN: Well, of course, to some extent, Paula, that's a matter of perspective, isn't it?

But sure, I think on the world stage there's little argument that John Paul has been a tremendous unifier. But it's not just his role as Chris Burns' piece just talked about, in putting Eastern and Western Europe back together and in helping to set in motion the dominoes that led to the fall of communism.

It's also the fact that he has been a tremendous unifier between Christianity and Judaism, for example. No one will forget his very memorable, 1999 trip to the Holy Land, when he went to the Western Wall and left behind a note apologizing for Christian anti-Semitism.

And yet, within Catholicism, strikingly enough, and let's not forget that part of his mandate is to govern the catholic church, this has been, to some extent, a bit of a divisive pontificate. There is a liberal wing in the church that on a range of issues feels quite disaffected from this pontificate, not so much the pope himself, but the pontificate.

There's a conservative wing, obviously, that feels quite energized by it. And that's a bit the paradox of the man. A great unifier on the world stage, outside the boundaries of the church, but a bit of a divider, perhaps necessarily so from his point of view, but nevertheless, a bit of a divider inside the church.

ZAHN: And there's one thing that no one can dispute tonight: the tremendous impact he's had on individual lives.

I was really moved by the pictures we saw from Chris Burns' piece when he went back to Poland: the very place where the Pope has spent a lot of time and those people were overwhelmed with emotion.

John Allen, thanks so much. We will be checking in with you throughout the weekend.

Just ahead on the program: the controversial chapters in John Paul's papacy, some of which John just touched on.

Also, the church and women when "Newsnight" continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: One of the most heart wrenching images of the Pope's final days came on Easter Sunday. These pictures: when he tried to speak, wasn't able to utter a word.

He leads and inspires more than a billion Catholics, but when it comes to suffering, the Pope is no different from any of us. He must bear it privately and alone.

Suffering is at the heart of the Christian experience and even though the Pope would never have chosen what has happened to him, the ravages of his Parkinson's Disease have been profound, he has chosen to respond with ferocious courage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE KLOEHN, CHICAGO TRIBUNE RELIGION ANALYST: He brought with him a vigor and an optimism and an energy level that the Vatican hadn't seen in decades. And that made a huge impression.

He was the vigorous mountain-climbing Pope, the Pope who went on ski vacations. He was the Pope who was willing to take off his zucchetto and throw on a cowboy hat and scoop up a little toddler in his arms.

He was all those things and he was happy to show that off.

He had always been an outdoorsy guy. And so, he brought that all to the papacy.

When he stood at an altar, he was not hunched, he was not tentative, he stood strong and his voice rang out: a deep, beautiful baritone.

And when he was away from the altar, he was striding through crowds. The energy just came through.

The first great change in his physical appearance was when he was shot in 1981 in St. Peter's Square: an assassination attempt that very nearly took his life. He wasn't afraid to share that with the world.

There are pictures of him in his hospital bed in 1981 recovering from the gunshot wound. No pope before that had allowed that kind of imagery to go out to the public, but he wanted them to know that he was somebody who suffered like all other human beings.

In the mid-1990s, we began to see the first symptoms of Parkinson's Disease. And obviously it was taking a toll on his endurance.

Over the years, as age and illnesses and the shooting began to take their toll, there were some people who expected the Pope to change his approach, to somehow back away from the public stage to hide. That wasn't at all what he had in mind.

He wanted to continue to live life, which included both the good and the bad, and live it publicly. He said it was more important to be there and be part of it and let people see him suffer than to try to hide that. And there are deep theological roots to that.

The other point that he wanted to make clear was that suffering was an important part of the Christian story, and that in some small way, when human beings suffer, the pope or anybody, they take some small share in the suffering of Christ on the cross.

His view of life was a deep, personal love of life. It was part of how he felt about abortion; it was part of how he felt about capital punishment. For him, it was all about the sanctity of life. His legacy can be approached from any of a thousand directions and different people will find different things in their legacy from him.

But I think his physical person, his being, his life story, will be part of it for almost everybody who witnessed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: And throughout the day, we had been reporting the bulletins from Rome and as the bulletins had become graver, hope for the Pontiff's recovery has slowly turned to prayers for an easy passing.

In Atlanta and all over the country today, daily mass became an opportunity for quiet reflection on the Pope's remarkable life and what it means to people.

In London, a measure of solidarity across two branches of the faith. A special mass was held today at London's Westminster Cathedral. During his papacy, John Paul has devoted a great deal of effort to bridging the differences between the catholic and Anglican churches.

There were also vigils all across Spain, home to nearly 40 million Catholics. John Paul was the first pope ever to visit Spain back in 1987.

And then in Iraq, where Christians of any stripe are a minority, the faithful came to pray and remember a pope who championed tolerance among the many religions of the Middle East. And it is in, of course, countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain, where sentiment for John Paul has always run high. Tonight, it remains even as hope begins to fade.

We're going to have more for you in just a moment, including the Pope's record on the issue of women and the church, and some of the controversy over women and the church.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: John Paul II has firmly believed that only men could be ordained as priests in the Roman Catholic Church, because that was the will of Jesus Christ. Well, that is one issue about women that fosters different opinions among women about their role in the church.

An examination tonight from Delia Gallagher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST (voice-over): Pope John Paul II's very first message on the status of women came out on New Year's Day 1995. One theme: women have the right to be fully involved in every area of public life.

A few months later, on the eve of the fourth world conference on women in Beijing, he made an unprecedented move, becoming the first pope in history to apologize to women: "How many women have been and continue to be valued more for their physical appearance than for their skill, their professionalism, their intellectual abilities and if objective blame has belonged to not just a few members of the Church, for this I am truly sorry."

Many thought that this apology would herald a new era in the Catholic Church's teaching on gender and sexuality, as well. But it was not to be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we have a papal encyclical and a papal apology calling for a program for the promotion of women, where's the program?

GALLAGHER: For some, the program was clear: both within the Vatican and around the world, John Paul did promote women.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that there are women working in higher positions, staff positions in the Vatican is one clear sign. That we are named to represent the Vatican in different things. They trust us to be there. A number of other things like that are all to be honored of Pope John Paul II.

GALLAGHER: In his many travels, he encouraged women, both in their careers and in their roles as mothers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it be the Mother Superior of an order of nuns, whether you're teaching in an inner city school as a female teacher, or whether you're the stay at home mom, your job is really important to the church. And the pope says this quite clearly.

GALLAGHER: But for others, a program that promotes women everywhere but on the altar is no program at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any institution that is not fully incorporating women leaves out half the agendas of the human race.

GALLAGHER: But John Paul II did not budge from the longstanding Catholic tradition of an all-male priesthood, nor on allowing the use of contraception, causing some women to protest and others to leave the church altogether.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The church is -- is bleeding women. And some day, that's going to affect us as a church, and it's not going to be long and may indeed be happening now.

GALLAGHER: To understand the pope's position, which seemed to encourage some women's issues and discourage others, it helps to look at his model of womanhood, the Virgin Mary. He believed it was she who saved his life when a would be assassin attempted to kill him in St. Peter's Square in 1981. And it was Mary's openness to motherhood that the pope said women should imitate, hence the ban on abortion and contraception.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The pope is talking about in general this is a gift that God has given to women, in particular. The human race is entrusted to women.

GALLAGHER: In modern society, however, not all women share the pope's vision, and in an age of AIDS, his refusal to allow the use of condoms caused many to call him out of touch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He seems to have adopted the position of the philosophers and theologians from about the 13th Century.

GALLAGHER (on camera): The pope's reasoning when it came to women's issues was based on centuries old church teachings and is largely shared by his cardinal advisers, one of whom will become the next pope. Anyone expecting radical change will likely be disappointed.

Delia Gallagher for CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: More now about the future of the church and the role of women. Joining us in Washington is Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, the former lieutenant governor of Maryland and the niece of President John F. Kennedy, America's first and only Catholic president.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND, FORMER LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, MARYLAND: Good to be with you, Paula. ZAHN: We mentioned that you're from a famous Catholic family, one of the most famous Catholic families in this country. You had the opportunity to meet this pope. What kind of a personal impact did that have on you?

TOWNSEND: Well, he was -- he's an extraordinary human being and a great leader. I saw what he did when I've gone to Poland a number of times, and what he really did in leading the church there and fighting communism and keeping the idea of freedom alive when it was really, really tough. And I think that's going to be one of his most critical and crucial and lasting legacies that he really stood up against totalitarianism and said people must be free.

I saw this -- you know, what it's affect was in the late '80s, and you know, still talk to the many, many people from Poland. And they can talk with eloquence and love of what this pope has been able to do for them. And around the world, as you've seen tonight in your show. The pope has had an amazing impact when he's gone to Africa or South America or even in our own country when he came to Baltimore.

He -- it's been very moving. And it's great for me as a Catholic to see a man who has been such a strong spiritual leader and really touched people's lives and helped them see -- see God in their -- in their daily work.

ZAHN: But is there a paradox, do you think, in his papacy? One of our guests was mentioning the great things he accomplished outside of the church. And -- and then they touched on some of the dissension he's created in the church with some of his policies. Do you see that paradox?

TOWNSEND: I -- I do. You know, I do. I mean, I love the Catholic Church. I grew up in the church. It's been a spiritual home for me. But I am saddened about the views about women.

I mean, I -- maybe that he came from a different time, maybe he didn't understand that you know, it's important to have women on the altar. It's important to have women be able to preach. It's important for a church that, you know, speaks for the poor and the disadvantaged and the hungry. And so many of those are women that you would want them to be represented.

And I think that one of the challenges for the next pope and really for the church ourselves is to deal with the issue of women.

ZAHN: And what do you think are the consequences if the next pope continues down this path for women?

TOWNSEND: Well, I think what is happening already are that women, and many just -- they go to their parish churches. They -- they're taking more -- they're taking more charge of what's going on in the parishes, because they're not getting as many priests. And they're finding the Catholic Church within their own communities.

And it's strong and it's -- it's wonderful. And it's been a great comfort. And it's helped us deal with the sadness and the suffering that goes on in all our lives. But I do think, as a public statement, and what the pope is is the head of a $1 billion church, could do much more in helping women throughout the world.

I think that the church is going to still be vibrant and strong. It has good news to preach. But it just could be better.

ZAHN: We all have been so moved by the faces we've seen all over the world tonight and this outpouring of love for this pope. Just a final reflection on the impact of his personal ministry, his ability to touch people, particularly his ability to reach out to young people, many of whom have nothing in common with this pope.

TOWNSEND: Well, what he's done and with those travels throughout the world, is saying that we can have a spiritual leader in this world.

I mean, the 20th Century, as you know, was just a terrible century for murder and genocide and wars and the growth of nuclear armaments. And we were yearning for a spiritual leader. And you saw this man be able to play that role and just to go throughout the world and try to bring people together and to say, "This is at least what we have in common."

And I think from that viewpoint, he was an amazing leader. And that legacy is critical and has touched not just the politics but really our hearts about what we can be and what we should be.

ZAHN: Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us tonight. Kathleen Kennedy Townsend.

TOWNSEND: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Just ahead on this special edition of "NEWSNIGHT," we will hear from younger priests in training, how they see this turning point in the church. This is "NEWSNIGHT."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And we are back. The next pope will have to deal with the nagging problem that frustrated Pope John Paul II. That is the shortage of new priests. But there are young men studying in American Catholic seminaries today, and they are dedicated to the vision and the message of John Paul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): The next generation of Catholic priests can be found in seminaries like Holy Apostle College near Hartford, Connecticut. George McInnis from Kentucky felt the calling in high school.

GEORGE MCINNIS, SEMINARY STUDENT: My friends didn't really understand it. You know, being religious, you know, I have the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. But if you're called, nothing will make you happy -- happier.

ZAHN: James Cadman from England says the vows of priesthood are a worthwhile sacrifice.

JAMES CADMAN, SEMINARY STUDENT: Naturally, our hearts long to love one person exclusively, you know, to be married and to have that exclusive love. But the heart of a priest is called to have a total self giving, to love everybody equally with the same love.

ZAHN: Hector Galvis is from Columbia.

HECTOR GALVIS, SEMINARY STUDENT: The life of John Paul was a very, very good example for us for the now he gave his life until the last -- the last hour for the -- for the love, for the love of church.

ZAHN: John Paul II is the only pope these men have ever known. They see him as a rock of faith, an inspiration to youth.

MCINNIS: His fidelity to the teachings of Christ and -- and being a true shepherd in the midst of a world that was telling him he had it all wrong. You know, he needed to get with the times. He needed to modernize, you know. No, he said there were certain truths that are always true. And he stood up for the truth.

And I think young people today aren't looking for wishy-washy, you know, which way is the wind blowing sort of guidance. They want someone who is willing to stand up for the truth, no matter what.

CADMAN: That's really his message to young people. You know, this is difficult. The gospel message is challenging, but the price, the result is great because it brings great joy to one's life and fulfillment. And that's what young people are looking for. They want meaning in their life.

ZAHN: These future priests aren't worried that the next pope's agenda will stray from John Paul's legacy.

CADMAN: Well, the second is John Paul II. The next Holy Father, his successor, will be a different pope altogether, a different person. And he'll bring to the papacy a different gift.

ZAHN: These seminarians look forward to the day when they can bring their talents to future parishioners.

GALVIS: The people need our service, our message.

MCINNIS: We have a very sad time in the church in recent years, the scandals. And you know, we don't need priests like that any more. We need holy priests.

CADMAN: Christ was pure humility. And our Holy Father has given this great example of humble service in the church. I think sort of the church of the future, we need humble priests, priests who are willing to serve.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And joining us now from Pittsburgh is Father John Bartunek, who was a seminary student when he first met Pope John Paul II. He has served mass with the pope, lives in Rome now, where he's studying for an advanced degree in more theology.

Thanks so much for being with us tonight.

I think one of the most interesting parts of your story is what happened in your life before you actually became ordained. You were an atheist. You converted to Catholicism because you were inspired by this pope, Pope John Paul II. How so?

FATHER JOHN BARTUNEK, LEGIONNAIRES OF CHRIST: Well, it was -- it was kind of a long story. But I was a college student studying in Rome, or studying in Italy for a year, my junior year overseas. And I was already a Christian at that point but I wasn't Catholic.

And I went to midnight mass with the Holy Father in St. Peter's Basilica. It was kind of a cultural event. And I got some seats up front close to the altar with the diplomatic corps. And I spent the entire three hours of the mass just gazing at this man, this spiritual giant. I didn't even know what the Catholic Church taught at that point, but I could tell that this man was in contact with God.

And he gave the sense of being a real man, being strong and knowing what he believed. And it stayed with me.

And a few months later, I was studying in another campus overseas in Krakow, Poland, where this -- at this time, Poland was still under communism. And I noticed there I was getting intrigued by the Catholic faith. And I noticed that the church, the Catholic Church, was the source of hope for these people as they suffered under the oppressive regime of communism.

And I noticed that they had pictures of Pope John Paul II everywhere, and statues. And I even visited a church that he had fought to have built in a new ideal socialist city outside of Krakow, which was supposed to have no churches. And I began to study the history of this man who had been -- kind of carried the torch of hope for an entire country and was now carrying it for an entire church. And I was intrigued, and he really drew me in.

But I think the thing, the more I got to know him, the more I got to know about him, the thing that really, really inspired me was he was such a fulfilled man. You know, a priest who was -- who was strong and courageous. And I kind of felt myself wanting to be like that, wanting to follow that path.

ZAHN: What -- what a lucky man you had to have been so inspired by that. I have so many more questions I want to ask you. If you would be kind enough to stand by, I would appreciate it. We're going to take a short break, and we will continue our conversation on the other side with Father Bartunek. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: You're looking at a live picture of St. Peter's Square. Just about five hours ago, the square filled with tens of thousands of people. Much fewer now, as you can see, lingering on, waiting for any information they can get from the Vatican. It's been almost 12 hours since we've had any official word on the pope's grave condition.

Before we went to the break, I was conversing with Father John Bartunek. He was a seminary student when he first met Pope John Paul II. His life has been altered considerably by that relationship. He lives in Rome, where he's now studying for an advanced degree in moral theology.

Welcome back. Thanks for standing by through the break.

Let's talk a little bit about how people might be surprised what you saw in the pope, outside of his official duties. Share some things, some anecdotes that might tickle us.

BARTUNEK: Well, the thing about this Holy Father when you meet him face to face, you spend time with him alone, is he just -- he makes you feel more alive.

When I had a chance to serve his mass in St. Peter's Basilica, when I was in seminary and studying in Rome, after the mass and the sacristy, he stayed there and he spoke with us and introduced himself to each one of us. And we had a chance to speak with him and be up close to him. And you just feel as if -- he looks into your eyes, and he doesn't say very much, necessarily, but you feel stronger because of it.

And I think it's because he -- he really believes in you. He believes that you can be what you always wanted to be, that your life can have meaning and be fulfilled. He communicates that, and he communicates it by the way he is and what he has done and what he's achieved, how he's been faithful to his own mission.

And of course, his sense of humor is -- he's -- he knows how to smile. And he's not afraid to smile. He's not afraid to cry, either. I remember when I went to World Youth Day in Chenstehova (ph), when he had World Youth Day in Poland, and there -- it was the first time that young people from the countries of the old Soviet bloc had -- were allowed to leave their country and come to another country.

And there we were, all gathered around this man, this old man, millions of us, about two and a half million of us from all different countries, speaking all different languages. And he was leading us in not only prayer but in celebration. It was intense. It was -- I was a college student at the time, and it felt like a big party. We were in the streets all night, and we were gathered around him. And he was -- he was our leader in so many different ways.

He just had -- I really believe it's because he -- he believes in you, you know? He thinks that you can be great. He has confidence in you. And so he communicates that.

ZAHN: That's a remarkable achievement. We really appreciate your sharing some joy with us this evening, a day where we've been focused on so much grim news. It was great for you to share those stories with us tonight, Father Bartunek. And good luck to you in your continued studies.

BARTUNEK: Thank you so much, Paula.

ZAHN: My pleasure.

We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

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ZAHN: The White House says that President Bush and the first lady are keeping the pope in their thoughts and prayers tonight. Here's more from Suzanne Malveaux.

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SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush last met with Pope John Paul II in Rome last June. They spoke privately for 15 minutes at the Vatican. It was their third meeting since Mr. Bush had become president and clearly significant.

The U.S. had invaded Iraq. As a result, Mr. Bush's approval ratings were sagging, both at home and abroad. Thousands of demonstrators were protesting in Rome's streets.

The pontiff, who vehemently opposed the Iraq war, called for the U.S. and Europe to put their differences over the war behind them.

The pope decried the September 11 attacks, and he also condemned the U.S.'s abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. But Mr. Bush earned praise from the pope for his socially conservative domestic policies, including his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage and a limit on federally funded stem cell research.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your Holiness, I would be honored if you would accept our Medal of Freedom.

MALVEAUX: President Bush awarded the pope the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the United States' highest civilian honor.

The president's last visit with the pontiff came just five months before election day, sparking some criticism in Washington at the time that the trip was politically motivated as an effort to win the Catholic vote.

But White House aides dismissed that accusation, saying it was an opportunity for the president to be with one of the world's greatest moral leaders.

BUSH: A devoted servant of God. His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, has championed the cause of the poor, the weak, the hungry, and the outcast.

MALVEAUX: Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.

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ZAHN: And we will wrap things up in a minute or two.

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ZAHN: And that's it for all of us here. Please stay with CNN throughout the weekend for all the latest on the pope. Thanks for joining us tonight.

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