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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Remembering the Pope
Aired April 04, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
It's 4:00 in the morning here in Rome and in St. Peter's Square behind us it is for the first time in a long time empty. The square closed down. The people who had lined up to view the body of Pope John Paul for now at least, for another hour or so, the lines will be held out to tens of thousands of people. At one point we heard 80,000 people were waiting.
We'll wait another hour or so before the gates open again and the lines form again and people walk by again for a brief moment to say a word or a prayer or a thank you to the pope.
The day's news in many respects could be summed up in a sentence or two. The pope's body was moved from one ceremonial hall to St. Peter's where it will remain until the funeral on Friday morning, ten o'clock in the morning here in Rome, four o'clock on the East Coast of the United States.
And they began the public viewing of the body today. That in two simple sentences is the news of the day, yet it hardly does justice to what went on here.
So, here's a look at how the day unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): There is antiquity and ceremony and there is this. Not perhaps the joyful noise the Bible speaks of, just a human measure of a transcended moment in a timeless setting transcendence yet brief.
Those who came, and millions are expected between now and the funeral on Friday morning, had barely a moment to look let alone linger. They came almost literally from everywhere, a crowd to be sure, at moments a crush but never a mob as people knew without being told why they came as they remembered what they had already seen.
They witnesses what has not been seen for at least a generation and for many a lifetime. As they watched and the world watched with them, the church and the world began the business of what comes next,.
The president making travel plans, cardinals meeting, decision made, a royal wedding postponed, all of it important, none of it we suspect as important here or as memorable now as the moment at hand.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: There is, we are taught when we're new parents, comfort for children in structure and in many respects that applies to us as we grow older. What we have seen play out here is a structured ritual that in some respects has played out for hundreds and hundreds of years, every detail measured more than once, no mistakes allowed, no ad-libbing allowed either.
CNN's Anderson Cooper is down below us here with more on that, Anderson good evening.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, Aaron.
It has been a day of ritual, although it does feel a little ad- libbed down here right now I got to tell you. I'm several hundred yards from the entrance to St. Peter's Basilica. It is one hour until the basilica reopens and mourners can go and pay their final respects to Pope John Paul II.
But they ware still lined up and this line has never really diminished. They closed the basilica for several hours to clean and reorganize things but take a look over here. I mean there are just crowds, thousands and thousands of people here who have just been lining up for many, many hours.
It is very cold here. They are bundled up against the -- against the chill. Some are cuddling with each other against the chill or perhaps just because they can. And it's hard to actually get a sense of how many people are here. I mean it is as literally as far as the eye can see. Down this boulevard is just people packed extremely close to one another.
It will be yet another day in which we expect several hundred thousand mourners to file past the body of John Paul II but the day that has already ended was a remarkable day, one that no one here will soon forget. It was a day filled with ritual.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): What a journey it was borne on the shoulders of the papal gentlemen, men from distinguished families whose job it is to care for the pontiff in life and in death and flanked by the elite Swiss Guard protectors of the papacy for centuries.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The Swiss Guards are a police force, if you like, for the pope. The origins date back to the Renaissance period when the pope was still a secular monarch in central Italy and they are aptly named because the requirement to be a member of the Swiss Guard is that you must be a Swiss citizen. You must have done military service. You must be a baptized Catholic.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The interesting thing about the Swiss Guards is, yes, they have to protect the pope while he's alive and now, of course, they are protecting him still even in his death. COOPER: Tears mixed with cheers as the procession made its way into St. Peter's Square, dozens upon dozens representing the ranks of religious life, monks, priests, bishops, cardinals accompanying the pope while tens of thousands watched and mourned.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): He's wearing his vestments as a bishop. A bishop is one of the most important positions in the church, not even a cardinal. A bishop is the most important. Cardinals are also bishops. Now the pope, of course, was also a cardinal. He was a bishop, a cardinal and then pope.
COOPER: While parts of the pomp and circumstance of saying goodbye to the pope have been refined the ritual grew from ancient roots and centuries of tradition. A church documents sets the precise ceremony for laying the pontiff to rest right down to the robes in which he's buried, crimson and white, symbolizing fire and purity, his miter a lasting symbol of his authority.
ALLEN (voice-over): The pope, in addition to being pope, was also at an earlier stage in his career a cardinal and that crimson is also a reminder of his identity as a cardinal. Cardinals wear crimson, by the way, because they take oaths of loyalty to the church up to the shedding of their own blood.
The white miter that was placed upon the pope's head is the traditional bishop's head gear so to speak. It has one horn in front, one horn in back symbolizing the Old and New Testaments.
COOPER: Inside St. Peter's a simple service, the Liturgy of the Word, a reading from the gospel presided over by the camerlengo, the cardinal in charge during the interregnum, the time between popes. Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo was appointed to that position years ago by his friend John Paul II.
ALLEN: Obviously Martinez Somalo knew that this day must come at some stage and so has been preparing himself in some sense to exercise these responsibilities for an awful long time.
GALLAGHER: It was a very moving ceremony because we saw for the first time the inside of the Apostolic Palace televised. We've seen pictures before but on television we were able to see some of those beautiful rooms painted by Raphael and then carrying the pope down the stairs.
COOPER: We now know the pope will be buried on Friday morning, following an elaborate funeral mass, also dictated by tradition. And, like half his predecessors, he'll be buried in the grotto under St. Peter's in a crypt that once belonged to Pope John XXIII whose remains have been moved to the main floor of the basilica. Until then, Pope John Paul II belongs once more to his flock, the faithful he served who now file past with one final prayer, a last goodbye.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And while we call the people who have been coming to see John Paul II mourners, when you're standing out here amongst them there's not a real sense of mourning.
You hear people clapping and singing and chanting with one another. There's a sense of community here, really a sense of joy almost, Aaron. It is not so much mourning the passing of the pope. It's really a celebration of his life, the life of a truly remarkable man.
BROWN: Anderson, thank you. It is, as we've said before, this is not about a tragedy. The pope lived a full, long, wonderful, rich life and for the true believers of Catholicism, Christianity/Catholicism, the life that awaits him, the afterlife is even richer than the one he has.
So, there is reason for joy, just as there is reason for every one of those, if 80,000 is the right number, 80,000 people who came today and the many tens of thousands who will come in the days ahead.
Each one comes with their own reason or for their own reason and all you need to do is go down and stand in the line to understand them, which our Christiane Amanpour did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm standing here in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) along with tens of thousands of pilgrims who have come here for their chance to file past the body of the pope. This is the grand boulevard that leads up to St. Peter's Basilica.
And, as they wait, what they can see is the proceedings on these huge screens that have been erected for this purpose. Right now you're looking at the domes, the vaulted domes of St. Peter's Basilica, the dome that was planned and decorated by the great Michelangelo and underneath that is the body of Pope John Paul II and you can see people who are waiting and who are able to file past.
Now, again, we're looking at these people who are now beginning to walk. It only happens in bursts because it takes a long time to get them through. Now they're walking and even though they're going to be waiting for hours they are not going to be able to do much more than just file past when they get inside because they have to keep this huge flow of people moving.
(voice-over): Let's ask a few people what they are expecting. Sister, what is your name? Where are you from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sister (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from Nigeria.
AMANPOUR: And tell me what your feelings are now as you anticipate a long wait to go and see and pope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm eager to go and see the man of God, the man of all, the heart of all, the heart of the world.
AMANPOUR: So, how long do you think you're going to have to wait here? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if I wait for two days here in this line I'm OK.
AMANPOUR: Inside St. Peter's Basilica soaring music as pilgrims filed slowly past the body of John Paul II.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This pope was elected in 1978 and I had the feeling seeing him on that balcony up there that this was going to be a giant of history and I was proven right. The man certainly, as you know and as the whole world knows, has marked our history and even marked our personal lives.
AMANPOUR: You can hear from the people who have come out after seeing the body of Pope John Paul II lying in state how moved that does make them and how privileged they are to be here.
(on camera): And, if you look across there on the steps of St. Peter's Basilica you can see that the crowds are endless that people are still waiting patiently. We believe that the basilica may be closed to public viewing between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m.
However, there are so many people here, some 70,000 lining up on the great boulevard and up to these stairs and some 70,000 according to the police in all the side avenues leading up that they may keep it open longer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And indeed they did. They kept the lying in state open for an extra hour so that all those people who had waited for so long, Aaron, could actually get in and see the pope.
BROWN: And in another hour and 45 minutes or so, or actually in about 45 minutes from now, they'll open the gates up and it will start again and it will continue on again until Friday, Friday at ten o'clock here in Rome when the pope's funeral begins.
That square was not always as peaceful or as quiet. When we come back that horrible day in 1981 when gunshots rang out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA BARTOLI, HELD BY POPE DURING ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground.
BROWN (voice-over): A grown woman now she was quite literally the baby who saved the pope's life.
Also tonight the future...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In myself, you know, I felt that presence in among the crowd. It was like electricity.
BROWN: The priests of tomorrow on the pope who inspired them and on the pope yet to be. MONIGNOR LORENZO ALBACETE, FRIEND OF THE POPE: With mercury we measure pain as we measure the heat of our bodies and air.
BROWN: Understanding John Paul by understanding his poetry.
From Rome tonight and around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: At any time it's a beautiful sight. It has seemed especially so these days on an early Tuesday morning here in Rome just before daybreak.
In a moment the baby who shook the assassin's hand and perhaps, just perhaps, saved the pope's life in doing so.
First some of the other things that made news today. Sophia Choi joins us with that, good evening to you.
(NEWSBREAK)
BROWN: Sophia, thank you.
The day the pope was shot back in 1981 he was holding a small child in his arms. It is ironic, if you understand much about the pope that that is so. I remember a day last week, late last week, we were talking with Delia Gallagher and she talked about the fact that pope would not be able to go out, would not be among people again because of his illness and that he took such strength from that psychological and emotional strength from that and in his frailty he wouldn't be able to do that.
Well, back in 1981, he was doing that. He was holding a child when he was shot. That child is now a young woman, a young woman with a story to tell and she told it to our Rome Bureau Chief CNN's Alessio Vinci.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Thousands gathered to say goodbye to their spiritual leader in the very square where he was nearly killed more than two decades ago.
It was May 13, 1981. The pope picked up a baby girl as he greeted worshipers in St. Peter's Square. A gunman aimed and fired. The pope was hit. The baby was not.
BARTOLI (through translator): Spontaneously, I'd say that I did save his life but actually perhaps he saved mine. In a way, he protected me a bit like a father would.
VINCI: The would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish militant, would later say he couldn't aim properly because the baby was so close. They call her the baby that saved the pope's life. Today, Sara Bartoli is 26 and remembers nothing of that incident when she was just 18 months old. What she knows she learned from articles and letters her parents collected.
BARTOLI (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground, people wrote to me they were scared about what happened to me.
VINCI: All the media attention about what happened eventually took its toll and Sara's devotion to the pontiff waned until she saw his frail condition on Easter Sunday.
BARTOLI (through translator): I realized that after 24 years something opened up and I cried and only a few days later he died and all my emotions overflowed.
VINCI: Years later, the pope visited the gunman in jail to tell him he was forgiven. Now, Ali Agca says the death of the man he once tried to kill brings him great sadness.
Sara is now married and nine months' pregnant. The death of John Paul II and the imminent birth of her child have her reflecting on the cycle of life.
BARTOLI (through translator): It's an immense coincidence, especially if you look at all the newspapers announcing his death. Many showed photos of the pope with a child in his arms, a symbol of death, but also a symbol of life and the future.
VINCI: Sara says she is deeply saddened by John Paul's death but is looking forward to telling her child how she became the baby that saved the pope.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The man who was at the pope's side on the day he was shot back in 1981 was at his side in one way or another for 39 years. The pope's personal secretary is someone who we for the most part know very little about and also is a man who probably knew John Paul better than almost anyone on earth; his story tonight from CNN's Chris Burns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Pope John Paul II fell bleeding from an assassin's bullet in 1981 Monsignor Stanislaw Dziwisz caught him in his arms. The pope later said the last thing he remembered was telling Dziwisz he forgave his assailant.
And, amid the pope's declining health, Dziwisz was also considered a fall back for his boss. As the pope's personal secretary, papal analysts say the Polish-born Dziwisz, known in the Vatican as Don Stanislaw, was increasingly influential while the pope weakened, just how influential is unclear.
HENRYK WOZNIAKOWSKI, PUBLISHER: He's an extremely faithful servant for the pope.
ROBERTO SURO, PEW HISPANIC CENTER: He progressed up to maybe sort of a kind of chief of staff or chief executive assistant.
BURNS: With a 19-year age difference their relationship was at first one of father and son. Legend has it they met skiing in Zakopane, Karol Wojtyla's spiritual retreat. Like Wojtyla, he grew up poor, born in the southern mountain village not far from the pontiff's hometown Wadowice. As Wojtyla led the church in Poland during Communist rule, he ordained Dziwisz as a priest in 1963 and named him his personal secretary three years later.
At the Vatican, Dziwisz played the pope's gatekeeper, his right hand man and chief confidante, a heartbeat away. He slept steps away from the pope's bedroom and stood by the pontiff's shoulder during mass. In recent years, as the pope's health waned, analysts say the father/son relationship changed. They say Dziwisz' voice increasingly carried weight.
SURO: Inside the Vatican when Dziwisz spoke the assumption was he spoke for the pope.
BURNS: One example, as the Iraq War approached he was asked the pope's position. Without taking time to consult he said, "The pontiff opposed it." With a bit of black humor he jealously guarded the pope from prying reporters. Asked in 2003 about the pope's physical state he said "Many journalists, who in the past have written about the pope's health, are already in heaven."
Vatican observers say Dziwisz played a consultative role, including in deciding appointments and papal trips and he was seen as a mediator among powerful Vatican personalities. Perhaps the greatest power Dziwisz wielded was access to the Holy See for the powerful and the weak.
While the pope was hospitalized in February, it was Dziwisz who invited a young cancer patient to visit the pontiff in his room. It was Dziwisz' hand the pope was holding when he died.
In naming his bishop in 1998, the pope told him "You have stood faithfully by my side as secretary sharing the works, the joys, the anxieties and hopes." Stanislaw Dziwisz is now gatekeeper of those memories jealously guarding Karol Wojtyla's privacy even in the pontiff's death.
Chris Burns, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: As we continue from this historic place in this ancient city, the words of a young poet named Karol and how they would shape his life as the pope named John Paul.
We'll take a break first. From Rome and around the world this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, it can hardly get prettier than that I suppose.
In another half hour tens of thousands of people will start coming back in to pay their last respects to Pope John Paul II.
I don't imagine that anyone begins his life thinking someday I'll become the pope and if circumstances had been different John Paul might have been an actor or a playwright. In either case, he certainly turned out to be quite a poet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Before he was Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla was an intellectual and a playwright, a philosopher and a poet. He once said that poetry is a great lady to whom one must completely devote oneself. He would exchange that for a devotion of a different sort but because of his love of words, we are left with a rare window into a complex soul.
ALBACETE: The pope's poetry is absolutely essential to understand who he was, how he experienced and lived his humanity.
BROWN: The man who would become the pope grew up during World War II in Nazi-occupied Poland. He watched as friends were taken to the concentration camps, some to never return. He wrote about the evils of war he saw firsthand. His old friend Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete reads "The Armaments Worker"."
ALBACETE: "I cannot influence the fate of the globe. Do I start wars? How can I know whether I am for or against? No, I don't see. It worries me not to have influence that it is not I who sin. I only turn screws, weld together parts of destruction, never grasping the whole or the human lot."
BROWN: The future pope's childhood in Poland was marked by hurt and loss. His mother died when he was just 9 years old. And 10 years later, at 19, he wrote of that pain, a pain still raw.
ALBACETE: "Over this, your white grave, oh, mother, can such loving cease? For all its filial adoration, a prayer. Give her eternal peace."
BROWN: In these early works, there are glimpses of the man who would become pope, the romantic. In his poem "Girl Disappointed in Love," he conveys a sense of heartbreak in way that suggests at the time he thought, he might, just might, know of that love firsthand.
ALBACETE: "With mercury, we measure pain, as we measure the heat of our bodies and air. But this is not how to discover our limits. You think you are the center of things. If you could only grasp that you are not. The center is he. And he, too, finds no love. Why don't you see? The human heart, what is it for? Cosmic temperature. Heart. Mercury."
BROWN: As Pope John Paul got older, his poems changed as well, an assassin's bullet, first, Parkinson's disease then changed his physical self. But he would face that stage of life with courage and, his writings suggest, face it with honesty as well.
ALBACETE: "Maturity is also fear. The end of cultivation is already its beginning. The beginning of wisdom is fear."
BROWN: Many of Pope John Paul's poems are, of course, deeply religious. His book of poems written while pope is a three-part medication on life and death and nature. In these writings, he discusses his own death, revealing that he had no intention ever of stepping down from the papacy, no matter how sick.
ALBACETE: "So, it was in August and again in October, the same memorable year of two conclaves, and so it will be once more when the time comes after my death."
BROWN: No doubt, John Paul will be remembered best by his travels, by his deeds, by the many millions of people he touched. But he leaves behind for all of us to consider a legacy of words. Perhaps an appropriate eulogy can be drawn from words he once wrote about his own mother's death.
ALBACETE: "There is a stir in the air, something uplifting and, like death, beyond comprehension."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Delia Gallagher is with us.
Delia's knowledge and patience with us has been invaluable over the last days.
I want to talk about his writing. But do we know much about the moment the actor or the playwright decided to become the priest and why?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that the two went together. I think that he had a very deep vocation from time that he was a boy. He wrote about it in a book called "Gift of Mystery," when he wrote about his vocation to the priesthood. And the two never separated, in a sense.
He continued to be the artist, the actor, even, and certainly the poet, while he was a priest and a pope.
BROWN: He wrote, literally, books. He wrote a good deal about love and marriage. And he wrote about sex, in that some people in this city and in this business found somewhat scandalous that he would write it down. He had thought a lot about it.
GALLAGHER: Well, this was -- his first book was "Love and Responsibility" in the 1960s. And it's actually a very profound sort of rethinking of sexuality. I mean, he did put a lot of effort into thinking about it and, as you say, even scandalized people by his language, sort of saying men sometimes don't understand the sexual desires and processes of women. I mean, this is in the 1960s. It even now sounds kind of...
BROWN: Well, it's not what you expect a priest or a...
GALLAGHER: Exactly.
And people that say, well, you know, the morality of this pope and so on, as if it's a very facile thing. But, actually, if you go and read all of the works that he's built upon in this sort of philosophy that he has, what they call the theology of the body, there's a lot to it.
BROWN: And it's consistent.
GALLAGHER: It's consistent.
BROWN: Are there things he has written, as far as we know, that we have yet to read, other unpublished works that we -- that might be out there still?
GALLAGHER: I don't know. I don't know that.
There may well be. Knowing this pope, he's probably still been working up to the last minute. In fact, there's a book that's coming out now, I think, in the states. It's been out for a few months here. And it's based on some conversations that he had in 1993. And he went through and reworked that. And that will be published soon, too. So, he never stopped.
BROWN: Like I said to you the other day, I had a million questions for you. I'm down to 999,000.
GALLAGHER: I think we have time still.
BROWN: We will before. Thank you. It's good to see you.
GALLAGHER: Thank you.
BROWN: Delia Gallagher, who is with us.
BROWN: Still to come on the program tonight, John Paul's young American disciples studying in Rome, but determined to take their message beyond. We'll have that and much more.
This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: About 20 minutes to 5:00 in the morning. It's quite a remarkable scene, as the people -- again, people who literally have waited all night now are making this long, slow walk through Saint Peter's Square here.
Anderson Cooper is down there.
Anderson, they opened the gates.
COOPER: They did, in fact, open the gates just a few moments ago. Is's about 20 minutes early. The people here have been waiting.
I just talked to an American who has been waiting in this crowd since 11:00, about five hours or so. Or, actually, I should say six hours. They've just turned on music, some choir music. People in the crowd are singing along. It is really a festive atmosphere. I mean, there's a lot of -- you see a lot of smiling. We talk about these as mourners, and people are certainly sad at the loss of John Paul II, but there really is a festive atmosphere here.
You feel a real sense of community. I've never seen such a large crowd of people -- I mean, we're talking tens of thousands of people. And there's no pushing. There's no shoving. When the line opened up early, it was extraordinarily orderly, people just very slowly moving forward. It's really -- I have really never seen anything like it in any large grouping of people. And we anticipate seeing this day after day until Friday's funeral, Aaron.
BROWN: It's an odd comparison, but it reminds me -- I was standing in a township in Cape Town, just outside of Cape Town, on the day that black Africans, South Africans got to vote. And they stood with this quiet dignity.
COOPER: Yes.
BROWN: And celebrated what was, in fact, the biggest moment of their lives and perhaps the biggest moment in their country's life.
Anderson, thank you -- Anderson Cooper with us tonight.
The church faces many challenges in many parts of the globe. The African branch of the Roman Catholic Church pulls it in one direction. The Latin American branch pulls it in another. And there are clearly issues of things like birth control and should priests marry, celibacy and the rest that affect the Americans in the Roman Catholic Church.
We talked with the head of the U.S. Bishops Conference, Bishop William Skylstad, the bishop of Spokane, earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I want to talk about issues facing the church going forward. But just take a moment. You were by happenstance here when notification was made that the pope had passed away. You were down below us there. What was the feeling in that moment? What was that like for you?
BISHOP WILLIAM SKYLSTAD, PRESIDENT, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: I think the expectation was that he would die fairly soon. We didn't know exactly when.
I walked into the square just about 10 minutes after the announcement. And, on the one hand, a deep sense of sadness, because a close friend, a brother, a tremendous pope had died, but, on the other hand, a sense of joy that someone had been released from the fragility of his own body to resurrection and being raised up. So, it was a mixed emotion, sadness on one hand, but great joy on the other. BROWN: The Conference of Bishops has had to deal with many challenges. It has many challenges going forward that extends beyond, obviously, the pain of the abuse scandal.
As you look at American Catholics, what are the principal challenges that you see?
SKYLSTAD: I think our challenges will be that of continuing to grow in a sense of community and in a sense of faith. We see a certain amount of polarization in our own country in so many different ways in the broader culture. And that has somewhat impacted the church as well.
I think to continue to look to how we can grow as a community of faith will be very important. We live in a culture that's rapidly changing and evolving, a culture that has so much to offer by way of image and influence. But, by this same token, we need to continue to look at how we deepen our spirituality or sense of holiness as we journey in faith together.
BROWN: Someone -- I was talking to someone yesterday. And they said that, by and large, if you look at American Catholics, by and large, they're -- and he didn't say this harshly. He said, they're cafeteria Catholics. They pick and choose a bit about what works for them.
Is that a concern or is that just a reality that you accept, that some part of the dogma doesn't work for individuals, but they still deeply consider themselves Catholic?
SKYLSTAD: I love the phrase of Pope John Paul II when he said, we are a church reformed, but also a church constantly being reformed. So, as I look at our people as we continue to journey in faith together, we're all on a conversion journey.
And even though sometimes we label those who have recently come into the church as converts, basically, all of us, myself include, need to be converts as we journey in faith.
BROWN: In the next days, the church will, for all the world to see, I think, say its farewell. This is a man you knew.
SKYLSTAD: Yes.
BROWN: This is a man who obviously influenced you in ways that the rest of us can hardly imagine. How would you want us to think about, those of us who are not Catholics, but who watch this moment just the same, how would you want us to think about it all?
SKYLSTAD: Well, first of all, looking at the church, I think, in many ways, this particular moment or these days in the church is the church at its finest, as we celebrate a death and the raising up of one of -- amongst us as a pope who was loved so deeply.
Secondly, as we look to this present moment and as we celebrate his life and his death, we look back upon his life with profound gratitude for what he has been for the church and really for the world. He was a great lover of humanity, not only the church, but of all humanity. And people pick that up. He had a charisma in sharing his presence with people, especially with youth, because they touched him profoundly.
I think that people energized him. And he looked to every person, whether they were Catholic or not, as a brother and sister in the lord or brother and sister in God. He just saw them as God's people. And he ministered to them in a way that I think was powerful. And people obviously picked up on that very clearly.
BROWN: It's good to see you.
SKYLSTAD: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: You know, we don't get to see many of our friends from Spokane, Washington, these days anymore. So it's particularly nice.
SKYLSTAD: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: To the extent it's appropriate, I hope this is -- the next few days are as powerful and as meaningful as they can be for you.
SKYLSTAD: Good. Thank you very much.
BROWN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Bishop William Skylstad, the bishop -- William Skylstad, the bishop of Spokane, Washington, and the head of the U.S. Bishops Conference.
What you are seeing now are live pictures of the people who have come inside the Basilica. And you can see how quickly this moment goes. They've waited five, six hours. They come. The line separates. One goes one way. One goes the other. They pass the body of John Paul. And they think and they pray. And they give thanks to him for what he gave to their life and what their church has given to their lives.
And it's all done in this remarkable quiet and dignity. And whether you're Catholic or non-Catholic, is it quite a powerful moment, a powerful moment in a powerful day. In fact, if you missed earlier today, the procession that carried John Paul's body to the Basilica, it was quite something to see. And, at the top of the hour, we will replay it for you.
We still have more ahead. We'll take a look at some of the morning papers. We'll update some of the other top stories of the day, as you take a look at the scene inside the Vatican, the Swiss guards, the body of John Paul lying in state.
This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It hasn't happened in -- something that hasn't happened in a quarter of a century and was seen on live TV around the world today. And, if you missed it, the top of the hour, we'll show you again this beautiful, extraordinary procession, as they carried John Paul's body to the Basilica. That's coming up at the top of the hour.
It's about 10 to that point now. Here's a quick look at some of the other stories that made news today. Sophia Choi is in Atlanta -- Sophia.
CHOI: Aaron, the White House is rolling out the welcome mat for an Eastern European ally. Today, President Bush and newly elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko discussed Iraq's reconstruction. Ukraine is withdrawing its troops from Iraq, but Yushchenko says he's committed to pursuing the training of Iraqi security forces.
Jurors at Michael Jackson's child molestation trial heard a young man from the pop singer's past break down today. The now 24-year-old claims Jackson initiated tickling games that led to fondling. Prosecutors say the witness got $2 million for settling his own molestation case against Jackson.
If you're forced to declare bankruptcy, your IRA will be safe. The Supreme Court has unanimously decided to lump individual retirement accounts in with pensions, Social Security and other benefits that cannot be touched by creditors.
Those are the headlines. And now back to Aaron Brown and a special edition of NEWSNIGHT -- Aaron.
BROWN: Sophia, thank you very much. Sometimes, when we're in these situations, we forget that other thing are going on in the world. But they are.
Rome went back to work today. But, early in the morning, Romans and Italians and people from around the world have come to Saint Peter's to say goodbye to the pope. And they are.
We'll check some of the headlines from around the world from around the world after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Time to check morning papers from, well, around the country, but, in this case, the country's difficult than usual, and around the world. These are just the papers we've picked up over the last several days.
Here was the headline that greeted Romans, Italians, or one of them. This is a country of many newspapers. Loosely translated, "Our Father is in Heaven." Those of you who speak Italian, I'm just translating loosely here, OK?
"The International Herald Tribune," which is published in Paris and is seen by millions of travelers around the world, led this morning, Monday morning for you back in the states, "A Public End For an Extraordinary Papacy. Private Viewing in Palace. Pilgrims Converge For Rites." Pilgrims are converging behind us as we speak right now.
One more, if we have time. "Mourning" -- this is "The Financial Times" -- "Mourning For Pope to Draw Two Million Pilgrims."
I can't tell you -- I don't do these points of personal privilege often. I can't tell you what a privilege it is to be in this place, reporting such an extraordinary story. It's been -- it has been and remains remarkable.
We'll wrap it up for the night in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's just about an hour from dawn of a new day here in Rome. It's a day without great events, except for this. People will be walking and praying and saying their farewells.
We'll see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 4, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
It's 4:00 in the morning here in Rome and in St. Peter's Square behind us it is for the first time in a long time empty. The square closed down. The people who had lined up to view the body of Pope John Paul for now at least, for another hour or so, the lines will be held out to tens of thousands of people. At one point we heard 80,000 people were waiting.
We'll wait another hour or so before the gates open again and the lines form again and people walk by again for a brief moment to say a word or a prayer or a thank you to the pope.
The day's news in many respects could be summed up in a sentence or two. The pope's body was moved from one ceremonial hall to St. Peter's where it will remain until the funeral on Friday morning, ten o'clock in the morning here in Rome, four o'clock on the East Coast of the United States.
And they began the public viewing of the body today. That in two simple sentences is the news of the day, yet it hardly does justice to what went on here.
So, here's a look at how the day unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): There is antiquity and ceremony and there is this. Not perhaps the joyful noise the Bible speaks of, just a human measure of a transcended moment in a timeless setting transcendence yet brief.
Those who came, and millions are expected between now and the funeral on Friday morning, had barely a moment to look let alone linger. They came almost literally from everywhere, a crowd to be sure, at moments a crush but never a mob as people knew without being told why they came as they remembered what they had already seen.
They witnesses what has not been seen for at least a generation and for many a lifetime. As they watched and the world watched with them, the church and the world began the business of what comes next,.
The president making travel plans, cardinals meeting, decision made, a royal wedding postponed, all of it important, none of it we suspect as important here or as memorable now as the moment at hand.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: There is, we are taught when we're new parents, comfort for children in structure and in many respects that applies to us as we grow older. What we have seen play out here is a structured ritual that in some respects has played out for hundreds and hundreds of years, every detail measured more than once, no mistakes allowed, no ad-libbing allowed either.
CNN's Anderson Cooper is down below us here with more on that, Anderson good evening.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, Aaron.
It has been a day of ritual, although it does feel a little ad- libbed down here right now I got to tell you. I'm several hundred yards from the entrance to St. Peter's Basilica. It is one hour until the basilica reopens and mourners can go and pay their final respects to Pope John Paul II.
But they ware still lined up and this line has never really diminished. They closed the basilica for several hours to clean and reorganize things but take a look over here. I mean there are just crowds, thousands and thousands of people here who have just been lining up for many, many hours.
It is very cold here. They are bundled up against the -- against the chill. Some are cuddling with each other against the chill or perhaps just because they can. And it's hard to actually get a sense of how many people are here. I mean it is as literally as far as the eye can see. Down this boulevard is just people packed extremely close to one another.
It will be yet another day in which we expect several hundred thousand mourners to file past the body of John Paul II but the day that has already ended was a remarkable day, one that no one here will soon forget. It was a day filled with ritual.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): What a journey it was borne on the shoulders of the papal gentlemen, men from distinguished families whose job it is to care for the pontiff in life and in death and flanked by the elite Swiss Guard protectors of the papacy for centuries.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The Swiss Guards are a police force, if you like, for the pope. The origins date back to the Renaissance period when the pope was still a secular monarch in central Italy and they are aptly named because the requirement to be a member of the Swiss Guard is that you must be a Swiss citizen. You must have done military service. You must be a baptized Catholic.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: The interesting thing about the Swiss Guards is, yes, they have to protect the pope while he's alive and now, of course, they are protecting him still even in his death. COOPER: Tears mixed with cheers as the procession made its way into St. Peter's Square, dozens upon dozens representing the ranks of religious life, monks, priests, bishops, cardinals accompanying the pope while tens of thousands watched and mourned.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): He's wearing his vestments as a bishop. A bishop is one of the most important positions in the church, not even a cardinal. A bishop is the most important. Cardinals are also bishops. Now the pope, of course, was also a cardinal. He was a bishop, a cardinal and then pope.
COOPER: While parts of the pomp and circumstance of saying goodbye to the pope have been refined the ritual grew from ancient roots and centuries of tradition. A church documents sets the precise ceremony for laying the pontiff to rest right down to the robes in which he's buried, crimson and white, symbolizing fire and purity, his miter a lasting symbol of his authority.
ALLEN (voice-over): The pope, in addition to being pope, was also at an earlier stage in his career a cardinal and that crimson is also a reminder of his identity as a cardinal. Cardinals wear crimson, by the way, because they take oaths of loyalty to the church up to the shedding of their own blood.
The white miter that was placed upon the pope's head is the traditional bishop's head gear so to speak. It has one horn in front, one horn in back symbolizing the Old and New Testaments.
COOPER: Inside St. Peter's a simple service, the Liturgy of the Word, a reading from the gospel presided over by the camerlengo, the cardinal in charge during the interregnum, the time between popes. Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo was appointed to that position years ago by his friend John Paul II.
ALLEN: Obviously Martinez Somalo knew that this day must come at some stage and so has been preparing himself in some sense to exercise these responsibilities for an awful long time.
GALLAGHER: It was a very moving ceremony because we saw for the first time the inside of the Apostolic Palace televised. We've seen pictures before but on television we were able to see some of those beautiful rooms painted by Raphael and then carrying the pope down the stairs.
COOPER: We now know the pope will be buried on Friday morning, following an elaborate funeral mass, also dictated by tradition. And, like half his predecessors, he'll be buried in the grotto under St. Peter's in a crypt that once belonged to Pope John XXIII whose remains have been moved to the main floor of the basilica. Until then, Pope John Paul II belongs once more to his flock, the faithful he served who now file past with one final prayer, a last goodbye.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And while we call the people who have been coming to see John Paul II mourners, when you're standing out here amongst them there's not a real sense of mourning.
You hear people clapping and singing and chanting with one another. There's a sense of community here, really a sense of joy almost, Aaron. It is not so much mourning the passing of the pope. It's really a celebration of his life, the life of a truly remarkable man.
BROWN: Anderson, thank you. It is, as we've said before, this is not about a tragedy. The pope lived a full, long, wonderful, rich life and for the true believers of Catholicism, Christianity/Catholicism, the life that awaits him, the afterlife is even richer than the one he has.
So, there is reason for joy, just as there is reason for every one of those, if 80,000 is the right number, 80,000 people who came today and the many tens of thousands who will come in the days ahead.
Each one comes with their own reason or for their own reason and all you need to do is go down and stand in the line to understand them, which our Christiane Amanpour did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm standing here in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) along with tens of thousands of pilgrims who have come here for their chance to file past the body of the pope. This is the grand boulevard that leads up to St. Peter's Basilica.
And, as they wait, what they can see is the proceedings on these huge screens that have been erected for this purpose. Right now you're looking at the domes, the vaulted domes of St. Peter's Basilica, the dome that was planned and decorated by the great Michelangelo and underneath that is the body of Pope John Paul II and you can see people who are waiting and who are able to file past.
Now, again, we're looking at these people who are now beginning to walk. It only happens in bursts because it takes a long time to get them through. Now they're walking and even though they're going to be waiting for hours they are not going to be able to do much more than just file past when they get inside because they have to keep this huge flow of people moving.
(voice-over): Let's ask a few people what they are expecting. Sister, what is your name? Where are you from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sister (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from Nigeria.
AMANPOUR: And tell me what your feelings are now as you anticipate a long wait to go and see and pope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm eager to go and see the man of God, the man of all, the heart of all, the heart of the world.
AMANPOUR: So, how long do you think you're going to have to wait here? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if I wait for two days here in this line I'm OK.
AMANPOUR: Inside St. Peter's Basilica soaring music as pilgrims filed slowly past the body of John Paul II.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This pope was elected in 1978 and I had the feeling seeing him on that balcony up there that this was going to be a giant of history and I was proven right. The man certainly, as you know and as the whole world knows, has marked our history and even marked our personal lives.
AMANPOUR: You can hear from the people who have come out after seeing the body of Pope John Paul II lying in state how moved that does make them and how privileged they are to be here.
(on camera): And, if you look across there on the steps of St. Peter's Basilica you can see that the crowds are endless that people are still waiting patiently. We believe that the basilica may be closed to public viewing between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m.
However, there are so many people here, some 70,000 lining up on the great boulevard and up to these stairs and some 70,000 according to the police in all the side avenues leading up that they may keep it open longer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And indeed they did. They kept the lying in state open for an extra hour so that all those people who had waited for so long, Aaron, could actually get in and see the pope.
BROWN: And in another hour and 45 minutes or so, or actually in about 45 minutes from now, they'll open the gates up and it will start again and it will continue on again until Friday, Friday at ten o'clock here in Rome when the pope's funeral begins.
That square was not always as peaceful or as quiet. When we come back that horrible day in 1981 when gunshots rang out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA BARTOLI, HELD BY POPE DURING ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground.
BROWN (voice-over): A grown woman now she was quite literally the baby who saved the pope's life.
Also tonight the future...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In myself, you know, I felt that presence in among the crowd. It was like electricity.
BROWN: The priests of tomorrow on the pope who inspired them and on the pope yet to be. MONIGNOR LORENZO ALBACETE, FRIEND OF THE POPE: With mercury we measure pain as we measure the heat of our bodies and air.
BROWN: Understanding John Paul by understanding his poetry.
From Rome tonight and around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: At any time it's a beautiful sight. It has seemed especially so these days on an early Tuesday morning here in Rome just before daybreak.
In a moment the baby who shook the assassin's hand and perhaps, just perhaps, saved the pope's life in doing so.
First some of the other things that made news today. Sophia Choi joins us with that, good evening to you.
(NEWSBREAK)
BROWN: Sophia, thank you.
The day the pope was shot back in 1981 he was holding a small child in his arms. It is ironic, if you understand much about the pope that that is so. I remember a day last week, late last week, we were talking with Delia Gallagher and she talked about the fact that pope would not be able to go out, would not be among people again because of his illness and that he took such strength from that psychological and emotional strength from that and in his frailty he wouldn't be able to do that.
Well, back in 1981, he was doing that. He was holding a child when he was shot. That child is now a young woman, a young woman with a story to tell and she told it to our Rome Bureau Chief CNN's Alessio Vinci.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Thousands gathered to say goodbye to their spiritual leader in the very square where he was nearly killed more than two decades ago.
It was May 13, 1981. The pope picked up a baby girl as he greeted worshipers in St. Peter's Square. A gunman aimed and fired. The pope was hit. The baby was not.
BARTOLI (through translator): Spontaneously, I'd say that I did save his life but actually perhaps he saved mine. In a way, he protected me a bit like a father would.
VINCI: The would-be assassin, Mehmet Ali Agca, a Turkish militant, would later say he couldn't aim properly because the baby was so close. They call her the baby that saved the pope's life. Today, Sara Bartoli is 26 and remembers nothing of that incident when she was just 18 months old. What she knows she learned from articles and letters her parents collected.
BARTOLI (through translator): Because you see me in the pope's arms and then suddenly he's fired upon and falls to the ground, people wrote to me they were scared about what happened to me.
VINCI: All the media attention about what happened eventually took its toll and Sara's devotion to the pontiff waned until she saw his frail condition on Easter Sunday.
BARTOLI (through translator): I realized that after 24 years something opened up and I cried and only a few days later he died and all my emotions overflowed.
VINCI: Years later, the pope visited the gunman in jail to tell him he was forgiven. Now, Ali Agca says the death of the man he once tried to kill brings him great sadness.
Sara is now married and nine months' pregnant. The death of John Paul II and the imminent birth of her child have her reflecting on the cycle of life.
BARTOLI (through translator): It's an immense coincidence, especially if you look at all the newspapers announcing his death. Many showed photos of the pope with a child in his arms, a symbol of death, but also a symbol of life and the future.
VINCI: Sara says she is deeply saddened by John Paul's death but is looking forward to telling her child how she became the baby that saved the pope.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The man who was at the pope's side on the day he was shot back in 1981 was at his side in one way or another for 39 years. The pope's personal secretary is someone who we for the most part know very little about and also is a man who probably knew John Paul better than almost anyone on earth; his story tonight from CNN's Chris Burns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Pope John Paul II fell bleeding from an assassin's bullet in 1981 Monsignor Stanislaw Dziwisz caught him in his arms. The pope later said the last thing he remembered was telling Dziwisz he forgave his assailant.
And, amid the pope's declining health, Dziwisz was also considered a fall back for his boss. As the pope's personal secretary, papal analysts say the Polish-born Dziwisz, known in the Vatican as Don Stanislaw, was increasingly influential while the pope weakened, just how influential is unclear.
HENRYK WOZNIAKOWSKI, PUBLISHER: He's an extremely faithful servant for the pope.
ROBERTO SURO, PEW HISPANIC CENTER: He progressed up to maybe sort of a kind of chief of staff or chief executive assistant.
BURNS: With a 19-year age difference their relationship was at first one of father and son. Legend has it they met skiing in Zakopane, Karol Wojtyla's spiritual retreat. Like Wojtyla, he grew up poor, born in the southern mountain village not far from the pontiff's hometown Wadowice. As Wojtyla led the church in Poland during Communist rule, he ordained Dziwisz as a priest in 1963 and named him his personal secretary three years later.
At the Vatican, Dziwisz played the pope's gatekeeper, his right hand man and chief confidante, a heartbeat away. He slept steps away from the pope's bedroom and stood by the pontiff's shoulder during mass. In recent years, as the pope's health waned, analysts say the father/son relationship changed. They say Dziwisz' voice increasingly carried weight.
SURO: Inside the Vatican when Dziwisz spoke the assumption was he spoke for the pope.
BURNS: One example, as the Iraq War approached he was asked the pope's position. Without taking time to consult he said, "The pontiff opposed it." With a bit of black humor he jealously guarded the pope from prying reporters. Asked in 2003 about the pope's physical state he said "Many journalists, who in the past have written about the pope's health, are already in heaven."
Vatican observers say Dziwisz played a consultative role, including in deciding appointments and papal trips and he was seen as a mediator among powerful Vatican personalities. Perhaps the greatest power Dziwisz wielded was access to the Holy See for the powerful and the weak.
While the pope was hospitalized in February, it was Dziwisz who invited a young cancer patient to visit the pontiff in his room. It was Dziwisz' hand the pope was holding when he died.
In naming his bishop in 1998, the pope told him "You have stood faithfully by my side as secretary sharing the works, the joys, the anxieties and hopes." Stanislaw Dziwisz is now gatekeeper of those memories jealously guarding Karol Wojtyla's privacy even in the pontiff's death.
Chris Burns, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: As we continue from this historic place in this ancient city, the words of a young poet named Karol and how they would shape his life as the pope named John Paul.
We'll take a break first. From Rome and around the world this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, it can hardly get prettier than that I suppose.
In another half hour tens of thousands of people will start coming back in to pay their last respects to Pope John Paul II.
I don't imagine that anyone begins his life thinking someday I'll become the pope and if circumstances had been different John Paul might have been an actor or a playwright. In either case, he certainly turned out to be quite a poet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Before he was Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla was an intellectual and a playwright, a philosopher and a poet. He once said that poetry is a great lady to whom one must completely devote oneself. He would exchange that for a devotion of a different sort but because of his love of words, we are left with a rare window into a complex soul.
ALBACETE: The pope's poetry is absolutely essential to understand who he was, how he experienced and lived his humanity.
BROWN: The man who would become the pope grew up during World War II in Nazi-occupied Poland. He watched as friends were taken to the concentration camps, some to never return. He wrote about the evils of war he saw firsthand. His old friend Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete reads "The Armaments Worker"."
ALBACETE: "I cannot influence the fate of the globe. Do I start wars? How can I know whether I am for or against? No, I don't see. It worries me not to have influence that it is not I who sin. I only turn screws, weld together parts of destruction, never grasping the whole or the human lot."
BROWN: The future pope's childhood in Poland was marked by hurt and loss. His mother died when he was just 9 years old. And 10 years later, at 19, he wrote of that pain, a pain still raw.
ALBACETE: "Over this, your white grave, oh, mother, can such loving cease? For all its filial adoration, a prayer. Give her eternal peace."
BROWN: In these early works, there are glimpses of the man who would become pope, the romantic. In his poem "Girl Disappointed in Love," he conveys a sense of heartbreak in way that suggests at the time he thought, he might, just might, know of that love firsthand.
ALBACETE: "With mercury, we measure pain, as we measure the heat of our bodies and air. But this is not how to discover our limits. You think you are the center of things. If you could only grasp that you are not. The center is he. And he, too, finds no love. Why don't you see? The human heart, what is it for? Cosmic temperature. Heart. Mercury."
BROWN: As Pope John Paul got older, his poems changed as well, an assassin's bullet, first, Parkinson's disease then changed his physical self. But he would face that stage of life with courage and, his writings suggest, face it with honesty as well.
ALBACETE: "Maturity is also fear. The end of cultivation is already its beginning. The beginning of wisdom is fear."
BROWN: Many of Pope John Paul's poems are, of course, deeply religious. His book of poems written while pope is a three-part medication on life and death and nature. In these writings, he discusses his own death, revealing that he had no intention ever of stepping down from the papacy, no matter how sick.
ALBACETE: "So, it was in August and again in October, the same memorable year of two conclaves, and so it will be once more when the time comes after my death."
BROWN: No doubt, John Paul will be remembered best by his travels, by his deeds, by the many millions of people he touched. But he leaves behind for all of us to consider a legacy of words. Perhaps an appropriate eulogy can be drawn from words he once wrote about his own mother's death.
ALBACETE: "There is a stir in the air, something uplifting and, like death, beyond comprehension."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Delia Gallagher is with us.
Delia's knowledge and patience with us has been invaluable over the last days.
I want to talk about his writing. But do we know much about the moment the actor or the playwright decided to become the priest and why?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that the two went together. I think that he had a very deep vocation from time that he was a boy. He wrote about it in a book called "Gift of Mystery," when he wrote about his vocation to the priesthood. And the two never separated, in a sense.
He continued to be the artist, the actor, even, and certainly the poet, while he was a priest and a pope.
BROWN: He wrote, literally, books. He wrote a good deal about love and marriage. And he wrote about sex, in that some people in this city and in this business found somewhat scandalous that he would write it down. He had thought a lot about it.
GALLAGHER: Well, this was -- his first book was "Love and Responsibility" in the 1960s. And it's actually a very profound sort of rethinking of sexuality. I mean, he did put a lot of effort into thinking about it and, as you say, even scandalized people by his language, sort of saying men sometimes don't understand the sexual desires and processes of women. I mean, this is in the 1960s. It even now sounds kind of...
BROWN: Well, it's not what you expect a priest or a...
GALLAGHER: Exactly.
And people that say, well, you know, the morality of this pope and so on, as if it's a very facile thing. But, actually, if you go and read all of the works that he's built upon in this sort of philosophy that he has, what they call the theology of the body, there's a lot to it.
BROWN: And it's consistent.
GALLAGHER: It's consistent.
BROWN: Are there things he has written, as far as we know, that we have yet to read, other unpublished works that we -- that might be out there still?
GALLAGHER: I don't know. I don't know that.
There may well be. Knowing this pope, he's probably still been working up to the last minute. In fact, there's a book that's coming out now, I think, in the states. It's been out for a few months here. And it's based on some conversations that he had in 1993. And he went through and reworked that. And that will be published soon, too. So, he never stopped.
BROWN: Like I said to you the other day, I had a million questions for you. I'm down to 999,000.
GALLAGHER: I think we have time still.
BROWN: We will before. Thank you. It's good to see you.
GALLAGHER: Thank you.
BROWN: Delia Gallagher, who is with us.
BROWN: Still to come on the program tonight, John Paul's young American disciples studying in Rome, but determined to take their message beyond. We'll have that and much more.
This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: About 20 minutes to 5:00 in the morning. It's quite a remarkable scene, as the people -- again, people who literally have waited all night now are making this long, slow walk through Saint Peter's Square here.
Anderson Cooper is down there.
Anderson, they opened the gates.
COOPER: They did, in fact, open the gates just a few moments ago. Is's about 20 minutes early. The people here have been waiting.
I just talked to an American who has been waiting in this crowd since 11:00, about five hours or so. Or, actually, I should say six hours. They've just turned on music, some choir music. People in the crowd are singing along. It is really a festive atmosphere. I mean, there's a lot of -- you see a lot of smiling. We talk about these as mourners, and people are certainly sad at the loss of John Paul II, but there really is a festive atmosphere here.
You feel a real sense of community. I've never seen such a large crowd of people -- I mean, we're talking tens of thousands of people. And there's no pushing. There's no shoving. When the line opened up early, it was extraordinarily orderly, people just very slowly moving forward. It's really -- I have really never seen anything like it in any large grouping of people. And we anticipate seeing this day after day until Friday's funeral, Aaron.
BROWN: It's an odd comparison, but it reminds me -- I was standing in a township in Cape Town, just outside of Cape Town, on the day that black Africans, South Africans got to vote. And they stood with this quiet dignity.
COOPER: Yes.
BROWN: And celebrated what was, in fact, the biggest moment of their lives and perhaps the biggest moment in their country's life.
Anderson, thank you -- Anderson Cooper with us tonight.
The church faces many challenges in many parts of the globe. The African branch of the Roman Catholic Church pulls it in one direction. The Latin American branch pulls it in another. And there are clearly issues of things like birth control and should priests marry, celibacy and the rest that affect the Americans in the Roman Catholic Church.
We talked with the head of the U.S. Bishops Conference, Bishop William Skylstad, the bishop of Spokane, earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I want to talk about issues facing the church going forward. But just take a moment. You were by happenstance here when notification was made that the pope had passed away. You were down below us there. What was the feeling in that moment? What was that like for you?
BISHOP WILLIAM SKYLSTAD, PRESIDENT, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: I think the expectation was that he would die fairly soon. We didn't know exactly when.
I walked into the square just about 10 minutes after the announcement. And, on the one hand, a deep sense of sadness, because a close friend, a brother, a tremendous pope had died, but, on the other hand, a sense of joy that someone had been released from the fragility of his own body to resurrection and being raised up. So, it was a mixed emotion, sadness on one hand, but great joy on the other. BROWN: The Conference of Bishops has had to deal with many challenges. It has many challenges going forward that extends beyond, obviously, the pain of the abuse scandal.
As you look at American Catholics, what are the principal challenges that you see?
SKYLSTAD: I think our challenges will be that of continuing to grow in a sense of community and in a sense of faith. We see a certain amount of polarization in our own country in so many different ways in the broader culture. And that has somewhat impacted the church as well.
I think to continue to look to how we can grow as a community of faith will be very important. We live in a culture that's rapidly changing and evolving, a culture that has so much to offer by way of image and influence. But, by this same token, we need to continue to look at how we deepen our spirituality or sense of holiness as we journey in faith together.
BROWN: Someone -- I was talking to someone yesterday. And they said that, by and large, if you look at American Catholics, by and large, they're -- and he didn't say this harshly. He said, they're cafeteria Catholics. They pick and choose a bit about what works for them.
Is that a concern or is that just a reality that you accept, that some part of the dogma doesn't work for individuals, but they still deeply consider themselves Catholic?
SKYLSTAD: I love the phrase of Pope John Paul II when he said, we are a church reformed, but also a church constantly being reformed. So, as I look at our people as we continue to journey in faith together, we're all on a conversion journey.
And even though sometimes we label those who have recently come into the church as converts, basically, all of us, myself include, need to be converts as we journey in faith.
BROWN: In the next days, the church will, for all the world to see, I think, say its farewell. This is a man you knew.
SKYLSTAD: Yes.
BROWN: This is a man who obviously influenced you in ways that the rest of us can hardly imagine. How would you want us to think about, those of us who are not Catholics, but who watch this moment just the same, how would you want us to think about it all?
SKYLSTAD: Well, first of all, looking at the church, I think, in many ways, this particular moment or these days in the church is the church at its finest, as we celebrate a death and the raising up of one of -- amongst us as a pope who was loved so deeply.
Secondly, as we look to this present moment and as we celebrate his life and his death, we look back upon his life with profound gratitude for what he has been for the church and really for the world. He was a great lover of humanity, not only the church, but of all humanity. And people pick that up. He had a charisma in sharing his presence with people, especially with youth, because they touched him profoundly.
I think that people energized him. And he looked to every person, whether they were Catholic or not, as a brother and sister in the lord or brother and sister in God. He just saw them as God's people. And he ministered to them in a way that I think was powerful. And people obviously picked up on that very clearly.
BROWN: It's good to see you.
SKYLSTAD: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: You know, we don't get to see many of our friends from Spokane, Washington, these days anymore. So it's particularly nice.
SKYLSTAD: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: To the extent it's appropriate, I hope this is -- the next few days are as powerful and as meaningful as they can be for you.
SKYLSTAD: Good. Thank you very much.
BROWN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Bishop William Skylstad, the bishop -- William Skylstad, the bishop of Spokane, Washington, and the head of the U.S. Bishops Conference.
What you are seeing now are live pictures of the people who have come inside the Basilica. And you can see how quickly this moment goes. They've waited five, six hours. They come. The line separates. One goes one way. One goes the other. They pass the body of John Paul. And they think and they pray. And they give thanks to him for what he gave to their life and what their church has given to their lives.
And it's all done in this remarkable quiet and dignity. And whether you're Catholic or non-Catholic, is it quite a powerful moment, a powerful moment in a powerful day. In fact, if you missed earlier today, the procession that carried John Paul's body to the Basilica, it was quite something to see. And, at the top of the hour, we will replay it for you.
We still have more ahead. We'll take a look at some of the morning papers. We'll update some of the other top stories of the day, as you take a look at the scene inside the Vatican, the Swiss guards, the body of John Paul lying in state.
This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It hasn't happened in -- something that hasn't happened in a quarter of a century and was seen on live TV around the world today. And, if you missed it, the top of the hour, we'll show you again this beautiful, extraordinary procession, as they carried John Paul's body to the Basilica. That's coming up at the top of the hour.
It's about 10 to that point now. Here's a quick look at some of the other stories that made news today. Sophia Choi is in Atlanta -- Sophia.
CHOI: Aaron, the White House is rolling out the welcome mat for an Eastern European ally. Today, President Bush and newly elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko discussed Iraq's reconstruction. Ukraine is withdrawing its troops from Iraq, but Yushchenko says he's committed to pursuing the training of Iraqi security forces.
Jurors at Michael Jackson's child molestation trial heard a young man from the pop singer's past break down today. The now 24-year-old claims Jackson initiated tickling games that led to fondling. Prosecutors say the witness got $2 million for settling his own molestation case against Jackson.
If you're forced to declare bankruptcy, your IRA will be safe. The Supreme Court has unanimously decided to lump individual retirement accounts in with pensions, Social Security and other benefits that cannot be touched by creditors.
Those are the headlines. And now back to Aaron Brown and a special edition of NEWSNIGHT -- Aaron.
BROWN: Sophia, thank you very much. Sometimes, when we're in these situations, we forget that other thing are going on in the world. But they are.
Rome went back to work today. But, early in the morning, Romans and Italians and people from around the world have come to Saint Peter's to say goodbye to the pope. And they are.
We'll check some of the headlines from around the world from around the world after the break.
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BROWN: Time to check morning papers from, well, around the country, but, in this case, the country's difficult than usual, and around the world. These are just the papers we've picked up over the last several days.
Here was the headline that greeted Romans, Italians, or one of them. This is a country of many newspapers. Loosely translated, "Our Father is in Heaven." Those of you who speak Italian, I'm just translating loosely here, OK?
"The International Herald Tribune," which is published in Paris and is seen by millions of travelers around the world, led this morning, Monday morning for you back in the states, "A Public End For an Extraordinary Papacy. Private Viewing in Palace. Pilgrims Converge For Rites." Pilgrims are converging behind us as we speak right now.
One more, if we have time. "Mourning" -- this is "The Financial Times" -- "Mourning For Pope to Draw Two Million Pilgrims."
I can't tell you -- I don't do these points of personal privilege often. I can't tell you what a privilege it is to be in this place, reporting such an extraordinary story. It's been -- it has been and remains remarkable.
We'll wrap it up for the night in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's just about an hour from dawn of a new day here in Rome. It's a day without great events, except for this. People will be walking and praying and saying their farewells.
We'll see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.
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