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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Special Edition: The Search for a New Pope

Aired April 15, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
It's fair to say that until two weeks ago, conclave, wasn't a word many of us tossed around much. The ritual is ancient, it doesn't happen often and when it does, it's wrapped in secrecy, a pocket of mystery in a modern world.

In just over 48 hours, the conclave to elect the 265th pope will begin at the Vatican behind closed doors. We'll spend the next hour on the whys and hows and whos and whats of perhaps the most secretive meeting in the world.

We start tonight with the hows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It is written that Peter, the first pope, chose his own successor. In the two millennia since, popes have been selected by bribery, by mob riot, even pitched battles. To prevent all that, the church decided in the 10th century that only cardinals should be allowed to vote. And even so, it has not always gone smoothly.

The very word conclave is from the Latin meaning "with a key." It comes from a papal election in the 13th century that took almost three years. Finally the citizens outside locked the cardinals in a palace, cut down their food rations and tore off part of the roof, gentle encouragement it seemed, to move things along.

PROFESSOR THOMAS GROOME, BOSTON COLLEGE: We'll pray for these cardinals and for their discernment and that indeed they will choose wisely, but of course, they could make a mistake.

BROWN: Today some of the rules are new, a result of decisions made by pope John Paul II himself in 1996. But as always the cardinals will seclude themselves in the Sistine Chapel to avoid the influences from the outside world. This time, though, they'll have plenty of creature comforts.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: They're going to be living in this new $30 million sort of hotel that John Paul II had built on Vatican grounds called the Doma Santa Marta in which the cardinals will have basically two-room suites.

BROWN: At the start, the cardinals will vote up to four times a day. There are no electronic voting machines, the handwritten ballots haven't changed since pope John Paul VI designed them in the '60s.

ALLEN: In order to ensure that these guys are voting in conscience for the man that they think is best for the job and not for any other reason, whether its career reasons, political reasons or anything else, they are instructed to disguise their handwriting so it will remain forever a mystery for whom they voted.

BROWN: One by one each cardinal will walk to the altar beneath Michelangelo's "Last Judgment" and place his twice folded ballot on a golden plate. He will then tip it into an urn to show he is casting but one ballot.

At the altar, each cardinal then kneels in prayer, rises and declares in prayer that he has made his choice. 115 cardinals will be casting votes, 114 will leave as cardinals. One will leave as pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a procedure that has worked pretty well in the past and we've learned from it. And hopefully it will work well again.

BROWN: Once the vote has been cast, three cardinals randomly chosen act as the scrutineers. One shakes the ballots in the urn to mix them, another counts the ballots to make sure they match the number of cardinals voting. The third reads the name on each ballot out loud. Then once all the ballots have been read, they are bound together with needle and thread, each ballot pierced through the word eligo meaning "I elect."

ALLEN: Essentially it's a way of collecting the ballots to make sure they have them all, so that there aren't any stray ballots floating around.

BROWN: After every voting session, twice a day, the ballots are burned in a furnace near the Sistine Chapel. The smoke visible from St. Peter's Square. Chemicals are added to make the smoke black if a pope has not been selected and white if one has.

GROOME: Hopefully the best choice will have been made when we see the white smoke, but of course only time will tell.

BROWN: As with any election, this one does include campaigning. But it is very quiet, very delicate.

ALLEN: There are hard politics in this process. Take place around the edges. When they break for lunch, when they get up in the morning before they say mass, when they're walking the Vatican gardens.

BROWN: All this continues until a two-thirds majority is reached. In the past, that's taken two to four days, but that's when the cardinals were sleeping on hard cots and not allowed outside until a pope was selected.

ALLEN: It will be interesting to see what impact that has. Part of the reason for making the cardinals physically uncomfortable was to give them a sense of urgency. BROWN: If after three days a winner has not emerged, the cardinals will take a day off for prayer and reflection. Then they'll begin to vote. If 30 votes take place without anyone gaining a two- thirds majority, the cardinals can choose to elect a pope by simple majority.

And when they finally come to a selection, the dean of the college of cardinals asked if he will serve and the candidate responds, accepto, "I accept."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As for who it will be, the short answer is, we barely even know who it might be. Though we do, however, know this. Between Monday and whenever the white smoke rises, the expert will analyze, the gamblers will wager -- they already are -- and because this is perhaps the longest running elective process on the planet, people with a stake in the outcome will try to influence the outcome, or poke fun at it as the case may be.

From Rome tonight, CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The millions paying their last respects to Pope John Paul have made it clear to those who will elect the next pope that they'll need to find someone who can inspire people the way he did. And now everyone seems to have an opinion about who that might be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he's in the eighth place in the running for being pope.

BITTERMANN: Take David Danny, for example. If papal elections are supposed to be secretive and subtle, nobody told them.

Still the two humorists from Belgian TV are absolutely serious about getting their local cardinal elected pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's for women, he's for using condoms if people have AIDS. All the things that's real.

BITTERMANN: In truth, Dave and Danny's campaign may not have much impact. This is an election like no other. There are only 115 voters. And every voter is a potential candidate. And among this electorate, there's no such thing as opinion polling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May I ask a question, one quick question.

BITTERMANN: So how do you influence these secretive voters? Sister Joan Chittister and other members of the organization We Are the Church, followed to Rome to the United States knowing this is the first papal election in 26 years. It seemed now or never to push their agenda of women's rights and more theological democracy.

SISTER JOAN CHITTISTER, BENEDICTINE NUN: I have no idea what effects the moment and these kinds of conferences are having. But I do know this, it is very difficult to believe that bishops and cardinals from around the world don't realize that this is a globe that is seething with questions.

BITTERMANN: Others are trying modern approaches. There are Internet fan clubs for some candidates where you can purchase their t- shirts, mugs and refrigerator magnets.

There are bloggers who fire off their papal preferences to the entire world wide web, even if they doubt the cardinals will take notice.

And there's an e-mail campaign trying to stop an Indian cardinal from becoming pope because, they say, he is arrogant and a dismal administrator.

Still, an author of both fiction and nonfiction books about papal elections believes little can influence the cardinals.

FATHER ANDREW GREELEY, VATICAN EXPERT: There are people, people who are rich Catholics who would like to try, but I don't think the cardinals, with perhaps a few exceptions, are corruptible. They can't be bought and sold anymore.

BITTERMANN: Anymore, because there have been times when papal elections have been influenced by more than the holy spirit. The papacy has been fought over, and bought and sold.

In modern times, when a pope died during World War I, the cardinals kept a tight lid on their voting fearing reprisals. And on the eve of World War II Hitler and Mussolini tried to pressure the cardinals to vote for someone more conservative than the man who eventually became pope.

(on camera): In the end, those who really can affect the voting laid the groundwork for it years ago. Opus Dei, for example, a traditional Catholic organization, worked hard to find favor with Pope John Paul II.

(voice-over): The fast growing movement started in Europe after World War II to galvanize lay Catholics has built universities and hospitals, organized papal visits and energetically evangelized for the church.

The pope rewarded the movement by canonizing its founder and naming two of its members cardinals. They will be inside the conclave.

Others inside will have influence because of their ideas. Two of the leading candidates for pope have published books. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has one just out urging Europe to return to its Christian roots. Brazil's Claudio Hummes has rushed into stores a book on his views about social justice for the poor and downtrodden.

Both are handy position papers for fellow cardinals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We pray for the college of cardinals as they prepare to enter into the conclave.

BITTERMANN: While the cardinals all say they'll trust heavenly leadership, their backgrounds and earthly concerns are as more likely to influence the way they vote as anything else.

The holy spirit speaks through the numbers, one veteran conclave observer said. Meaning, that if no one is elected at the start of the voting, the cardinals will watch for trends in successive voting rounds, or perhaps compromising on some issues to go with a candidate who can capture two thirds of the votes and win.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: It will be a moment for the history books. Not to mention a moment for the bookmakers. So here now, the perfect piece for a correspondent named Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're both steeped in tradition and practiced by millions. But religion and gambling rarely mixed, until now.

He's an Irish bookie with odds on the next pope, risking Vatican scorn, and perhaps a bolt from the heavens.

PADDY POWER, BOOKMAKER: I don't believe it's in bad taste, to be honest with you. I think -- we took it down for 24 hours when the pope actually did die, as a mark of respect. But overall, it wasn't in bad taste six months ago; I don't think it's in bad taste now. I think it's OK.

Then we have Oscar Rodriguez. He's a 9-2, so a lot of people are tipping him off, because he's a real language buff. He speaks about six or seven languages. They say that will bring the Catholic Church to a wider community.

CHANCE: And it's not the holy spirits deciding the odds. Bookies seriously researched the papabile, cardinals that are likely to become pope. The chances of an Italian, a conservative, even a black pontiff carefully weighed.

POWER: We got about seven reasonable names, and said these guys have a chance. We put odds on them. And then, after that, the market has grown to about 40 names now. So -- and every single one of those, apart from the original seven, are from people calling us or e-mailing us, saying put odds on this guy, put odds on our guy from Australia, put odds on our guy from Honduras or whatever.

CHANCE: And with the papal conclave in Rome sworn to secrecy, there are few insider tips on the best bet.

(on camera): Well, these are the latest odds. Francis Arinze of Nigeria, a joint favorite with Dionigi Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan. They're both at 11-4. Followed closely by Cardinal Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, at 9-2. Then comes Joseph Ratzinger of Germany. He's been placed at 7-1, followed by Claudio Hummes of Brazil. After that, the people with a more outside chance of becoming pope, at 14-1 and bigger.

(voice-over): But it is a gamble not everyone's prepared to take.

Well, I had a lot of respect for the pope. And I just won't bet on religion. Anything else, yeah.

CHANCE (on camera): Are you likely to have a flutter on the pope?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

CHANCE: Why is that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just too many other things to bet on, really. I think it would be hard to pick a winner.

CHANCE (voice-over): A winner the church's cardinals believe they'll have divine guidance in picking, whatever the odds.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Dublin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We have much more ahead tonight, starting with supper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't want you in the kitchen. They're going to serve you a very fine meal, but they don't want you in the kitchen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Of kitchens and courts and cardinals. Do we really need all this mystery when it comes to choosing the pope?

Also, mystery and intrigue. And antimatter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somewhere around a millionth of a gram of antimatter, it would be capable of powering a ship in the one-year trip from Earth to Mars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: OK, wise guy, so where does the conclave come in?

And later, the push to make John Paul a saint sooner.

No miracles here, though, just a special edition of NEWSNIGHT. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Erica Hill. We'll return to a special edition of NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown in just a moment. But first, a check of the headlines.

A Utah man has agreed to a plea deal in a murder case highly publicized last summer. In an exchange for admitting to killing his wife in their Salt Lake City apartment, Mark Hacking will get between six years and life in prison. Prosecutors say Hacking killed his wife Lori after she discovered he lied about enrolling in medical school.

Two new government reports are suggesting the billions spent on improving airport security checkpoints have been a waste of your tax dollars. The House Aviation Subcommittee has been briefed now on the findings. The members admit the results are disappointing.

The reports say both the government screeners and the private contractors are underperforming the Transportation Security Administration -- are underperforming, rather. The Transportation Security Administration took over screening at about 450 airports in 2002 and hired over 45,000 workers. One committee member said the only solution is better technology.

Amtrak is canceling all of its high-speed Acela Express trains between Washington and Boston, citing brake problems. Acela runs 20 percent of the weekday service on Amtrak's flagship Northeast corridor. An estimated 10,000 passengers had to find seats on other trains today. A spokesman says routine inspections uncovered cracks on many of the fleet's brake rotors.

And you probably heard the story by now about the woman who said she found a finger in her chili from a Wendy's restaurant. Well, now, Wendy's is doubling its reward for information about that incident to $100,000. The company says the bad publicity has hurt sales and forced some layoffs. The woman, by the way, who made that claim last month has since dropped her legal case against Wendy's.

And that's the latest from HEADLINE NEWS at this hour. I'm Erica Hill. We now rejoin a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

BROWN: Simon & Schuster says the approaching conclave is spurring the sales of "Angels and Demons," a novel by Dan Brown, who five years ago published it before he wrote the blockbuster best- seller the "Da Vinci Code." The "Da Vinci Code" did not win Mr. Brown friends at the Vatican. One cardinal, a former church official, called the book "heresy." The church has not as yet criticized "Angels and Demons," a thriller that includes purported details on the inner workings of the conclave.

That said, we wondered how fiction stands up to the facts. So here's NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Angels and Demons" is full of references to real events, real people, real places. All the writing about works of art and architecture is said to be entirely factual. There are even accurate scale maps of Rome and Vatican City, to help readers follow the novel's action. But for all that, the story is a weave of the real and the invented.

REV. JOHN COUGHLIN, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: This book sounds a lot like the "Da Vinci Code." It's a great read, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, but it contains enormous historical errors and fabrications.

NISSEN: "Angels and Demons" unfolds just after the death of a fictional pope. As is happening now in Rome, in the book the cardinals have gathered for the conclave to elect the next pope. Security is tight. The Sistine Chapel has been swept for listening devices.

COUGHLIN: There is actually an electronic sweeping of the chapel right before the cardinals go into the conclave.

NISSEN: When the fictional conclave begins, the cardinals are sealed into the chapel, under lock and key and heavy guard.

COUGHLIN: No, that's not true at all. While the voting is taking place, only the cardinals are present and it is sealed in that sense.

NISSEN: In the book, four cardinals are discovered missing. The preferiti, the leading candidates to be pope.

Do real conclaves have preferiti?

COUGHLIN: There are candidates. I think that the cardinals have certain of their members in mind who they think would make a good pope.

NISSEN: Finding the missing cardinals and safeguarding the Vatican is the job in the book of the Swiss Guard. They are real, although they aren't quite the special forces the book describes.

COUGHLIN: The Swiss Guard are a kind of quasi-military police force. They do carry weapons, there is an arsenal. And they're trained in security.

NISSEN: They'd hardly be a match for the bad guys in the book, a shadowy underground organization known as the Illuminati, with a centuries old vendetta against the Catholic Church. The books author says the cult known of the Brotherhood of the Illuminati is factual. Some church historians aren't so sure.

COUGHLIN: There was a medieval group who were called the Illuminati. It refers to people who have a certain stage of development in their spiritual lives, where they've been illuminated by the light of Christ.

NISSEN: What of the weapon of mass destruction the Illuminati in the book try to use to blow up Vatican City? An Illuminati agent has stolen it from CERN, a very real physics research center near Geneva Switzerland, that actually does have a 18-mile-long particle accelerator. In the book, two physicist use that atom smasher for an alleged breakthrough, the first creation of antimatter in a laboratory.

STEVE LAUTENSCHLAGER, PARTICLE PHYSICIST: This is one of the more major errors in book, is that one of the characters actually says, this is the first antimatter. It's not the first antimatter. It's been around for nearly 100 years.

NISSEN: The book describes antimatter as 1,000 times more powerful than nuclear energy -- true?

LAUTENSCHLAGER: Somewhere around a millionth of a gram of antimatter would be capable of powering a ship in the one-year trip from Earth to Mars.

NISSEN: If it could be collected and stored, which the fictional physicists have done, but real physicists can't yet do. At least, one physicist is forgiving of the errors in the book.

LAUTENSCHLAGER: I would say any publicity for science or particle physics in general is good.

NISSEN: And the priest?

COUGHLIN: It doesn't take away from the enjoyment of reading the novel, but people shouldn't take it as historical piece.

NISSEN: A novel idea. Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So now here's a what if. What if you could watch the Conclave next week on C-Span?

Would it hold the same kind of interest it seems to hold now? Cable might not make the business at hand any less significant, but it certainly would eliminate the mystery, and the majesty the church seems to need. And, frankly, people can't seem to get enough of. Can't, and in this age of full disclosure, don't.

So here's our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Crossing the line...

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST (voice-over): When the United States picks a leader, it's as open a process as we can make it.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My vision is...

GREENFIELD: Candidates talk to us, listen to us. Argue with each other. AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: What about the Norwood Bill?

GREENFIELD: Duel with the press.

KERRY: No questions.

GREENFIELD: They put their families on display, tell us about their childhood and their children.

GORE: My kid, my grandson.

GREENFIELD: And sometimes they tell us...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, the world's dying know, is it boxers or briefs?

GREENFIELD: More than we might want to know.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Usually briefs.

GREENFIELD: And in recent years once largely unseen views of our government, House and Senate floor debates, for example, are now regular television fare. But if the past is any guidance, when the cardinals gather in the Vatican to choose a new pope, the official photograph will be the first and only glimpse the public will get of that Conclave. When the doors close, the only clue to what's going on behind those doors will be the smoke billowing from the chimney. Even when white smoke appears and bells ring, when the announcement is made. That's all we'll know about what happened and why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They kind of look at it like they're running a restaurant, they don't want you in a kitchen. They're going to serve a very fine meal, but they don't want you in the kitchen.

GREENFIELD: Father Thomas Reese, who edits "America," a Catholic magazine, says there's good reason for such secrecy.

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: There will be divisions. And the one thing that the hierarchy never wants to show to the people is division.

GREENFIELD: But there's also another benefit to the private nature of the decision making, the absence of public quarreling or pettiness lends an air of stature to the proceedings. In this sense the College of Cardinals has something in common with an American government institution uniquely exempt from public scrutiny, the U.S. Supreme Court. TV and still cameras are barred from oral arguments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you give by telling us our federal jurisdiction?

GREENFIELD: Only rarely does the court permit audiotape of the arguments to be released as it did when it decided to end the vote count in the 2000 election. While its decisions are public along with the sense, what actually happens in its conference room is a secret. Mostly a well kept one says former Supreme Court clerk, Cliff Sloan.

CLIFF SLOAN, PUBLISHER, "SLATE" MAGAZINE: It's a very important part of what gives the court its special authority in the life of the country. It's what gives people confidence in the court's role. If the court was leaking during the course of a decision, the court would lose something important about its authority when it issues a decision.

GREENFIELD (on camera): Such secrecy may run against the grain of the public's right to know, but Americans should remember the most enduring charter of freedom the U.S. Constitution, was hammered out more than 200 years ago during a hot Philadelphia summer strictly behind closed doors.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There's already a lot of talk at the Vatican about naming Pope John Paul II a saint. The decision, of course, belongs to his successor. He may do what John Paul did, change some of the long established guidelines and put the late pope on the fast track, if you will. That would please many of the faithful who have gathered in St. Peter's.

Here's Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST (voice-over): Saint now, they chanted. Remarkable, even stunning outburst of emotion taking place at the funeral of Pope John Paul II. To many, the late pontiff did lead the kind of life required for sainthood. His early years of manual labor in Poland, his commitment to the priestly life when such a vocation was illegal under Nazi rule. His stubborn resistance to communism and his final months of physical suffering.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many hearts has he changed? I mean, that we haven't seen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had worked miracles in the heart of each one.

GALLAGHER: Some have already described miraculous healings by the pope in his lifetime, but that is not enough for sainthood. At the Vatican, where saints watch over popes and worshipers alike, the rules are very clear. The process can't even begin until five years after a candidate's death.

PHIL PULLELLA, REUTERS VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: John Paul II broke the rules himself by setting a precedent by allowing the beatification procedure for Mother Teresa of Calcutta to begin only two years after her death, instead of five years after her death.

GALLAGHER: Elevation to sainthood requires more than just evidence of a holy life. There must also be two miracles attributed to the pope after his death. For example, someone whose prayers to the late pontiff results in a healing that can't be explained by science. Sainthood for John Paul II, will depend on one of these men, many of whom already support the fast track.

Cardinal Jose Saraiva was chief of the congregation in charge of making recommendations of sainthood to John Paul II.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next pope will decide. We'll have to wait.

GALLAGHER: That decision may not be too difficult for the next pope. Certainly those waiting at the doorstep of St. Peter's have cast their ballots. I asked these teenagers from Sicily if the pope should be made a saint.

GROUP: Si!

GALLAGHER (on camera): In the early church saints were made by public acclamation. From this square and around the globe, the Vatican has heard the voices of the people raised in support for the canonization of John Paul II, the man who made more saints than anyone else may one day join them.

Delia Gallagher for CNN, Vatican City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In a moment, back to the real state stakes at hand for whoever is chosen to lead the church next. Take a break first. From New York this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Among the hows and whys about the next pope there are also the whats. Because the Catholic Church is a worldwide institution that has an impact on Catholics and non-Catholics alike, what kind of leader does it need to move forward in an ever changing world? Monsignor William Kerr is the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center in Washington. He's with us tonight.

Nice to see you.

MONSIGNOR WILLIAM KERR, POPE JOHN PAUL II CULTURAL CENTER: Good to be with you.

BROWN: How should the next pope be different from John Paul?

KERR: Well, I think he, first of all, should be Like John Paul in the sense that he will reach out to the world as John Paul did. Someone said to me the other day, how will anyone fill John Paul's shoes? And my response is, no one will fill those shoes. They'll be new shoes. It will be a new person with a new signature.

But common with John Paul, that person will have to be a communicator but not just one that communicates words but one that communicates feeling and love as I think the man did. BROWN: Is this a new definition of a pope? Or is this what the pope should always have been or always has been?

KERR: Well, I think with the change of time, now the global reach is possible. Prior to that, it was a regional city reach. But now it's a worldwide reach. And I think it is a new, if you will, time in the papacy. A pope can no longer be a prisoner in the Vatican, can no longer just be focused on one point of the world.

BROWN: It can't be -- it can be whatever it want. I don't get a vote. But it can't be Robert Redford in the candidate, if you know what I mean. I mean, it can't be that. It has to be something more substantial. It can't be somebody who puts on the vestment and say, now what do we do?

KERR: I don't think it's a person that's just image. I don't think that. And I don't think it a person who just globetrots for the sake of getting out there and waving at crowds. I think it has to be a person of substance, a person who passion, who feels about things.

I think the world has more expectations now of the pope than at any time in history, because they have met him, they've seen the pope. And he's come to their villages and their countries.

BROWN: In what sense then does the pope no longer -- does a pope no longer belong simply to the Catholic Church?

KERR: Well, I think in the fullest sense possible, that's true.

The pope will have to govern the Catholic Church. The pope will have to state and restate doctrines that are perennially consistent with the teachings of the Church and the pope will have to make decisions that relate to the governance, the appointment of bishops, et cetera, et cetera.

But more than that, the pope will have to be the shepherd of the flock that is the world. It doesn't mean that he has to hope or even try to make everyone Catholic in the sense of converting them. But he's got to go out and love them, just as the Christ, whose vicar he is, did. And I think that this pope did that beautifully on the world stage.

The fact that he was an actor. And he knew something about the presence certainly helped him. And I think -- I just don't think that a pope cannot do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'll have more of our conversation with Monsignor Kerr. We'll take a short break first. From around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Does the -- I want to figure out the delicate way to ask this. Does a church that is as top down, if you will, as the Catholic Church is, can it thrive in a modern time when people want a voice in, want choices in -- are not that thrilled about being told what to do all the time?

KERR: I think the answer to that question, if I may, is yes and no. I think the church can thrive to the extent that it continues the process that's been in operation for the last 30 years, slowly at times, but certainly in process of decentralizing. There's a great deal of decentralization in the church, even though from the outside appearances are that it's a very tightly knit and tightly centralized institution.

There have been many, many, if you will, liturgical changes that have reflected the indigenous needs of peoples. And there have been many, many, if you will, disciplinary changes. There's been a shared governance in some ways throughout the church in various regions.

BROWN: But in some respects, it is fair to say that John Paul centralized authority in the Vatican, didn't decentralize authority in the Vatican.

KERR: He was a person who by his very presence and very charisma, he centralized things, they looked toward him.

He was a man of convictions. He spoke his convictions. He wrote prolifically. I mean he just wrote more, I'm sure, than any pope has written before. He published more.

He was the kind of person that centered, if you will, attention on himself. And to the extent that he was that leader, there is a great deal of centralization also. And I don't mean to suggest there was not.

But there are tensions within the church in those two directions. And I think it's going to be interesting to see as -- you know, the church is no longer European.

BROWN: Certainly not.

KERR: It is so much more broadly now throughout the world, and I think you're going to see an awful lot of changes take place.

BROWN: Just as an outsider looking in, what I find interesting, it's not unusual, every other religion to one degree or another has this, is that the church is actually a number of different churches, even though it exists under one umbrella. What the -- what African bishops might want and African Catholics might want or Latin American Catholics might want is vastly different than what American Catholics might want.

KERR: Yes.

BROWN: And other religions, it seems to me, I mean, you can be an Orthodox Jew, a Reform Jew, you can kind of find your way in. Catholicism doesn't really offer that. And so I'm wondering how does the church reconcile what sometimes are very different theological views?

KERR: You know, I think it reconciles them. You know, we have in the Catholic Church this belief that the church is built on the rock of Peter and that Peter is the sign of unity. And that sense is the primate of the entire church.

Now, the fact that things are different in different regions of the world than in Rome, that's something that's just real. And that's going to -- as the world changes -- the world is continually changing at a rapid, rapid pace, you know, there's going to have to be greater communication between the outside and the inside, if you will. There is going to have to be dialogue. There's going to have to be, you know, just a coming together.

But the central -- not to mean centralized -- but the central place is Rome, and Peter is the sign of unity. And I think that's where everything has to go around.

For instance, translations of liturgical texts. They have to be in sync, if I may use that expression, with the Roman doctrines and the dogmas of the church. They have to be appropriate to the liturgies of the church. And if something is extremely meaningful in one region of the church but violates what the church centrally stands for, if you will, well, there has to be a reconciliation. And that has to happen through dialogue.

One of the things I think we'll see more of will be dialogue. I think there will be a lot more talk back and forth. I think the cardinals who are meeting now in Rome are probably having some very serious conversations among themselves about the next pope. It's going to be interesting, it's going to be an interesting church.

BROWN: In that regard, a last question. Because it wasn't -- you know, we forget this, but when that man, when John Paul walked to that window 26 years and what, four or five months ago.

KERR: Yes.

BROWN: We didn't know who he was going to become. Popes are oddly like Supreme Court judges. They have names and they have resumes, but what they're going to be is a product of time and the times.

KERR: That's right.

BROWN: In these days, does the next pope have that luxury to become something?

KERR: Well, I think he does have that luxury. You know, I have found in my life, whenever I have moved from one, if you will, position to another position, I have always had to sort of grow into that position. Yes, I think the new pope will do that, and I think it will be an interesting growth. And we don't know, even when he stands at the window and gives his blessing, we don't know who he is going to be five years from now.

But I think with the grace of God, he will grow into something. And it will be interesting to watch, to grow along with him. And I think with the grace of God and with a whole lot of other people who will be talking to him, he will become something.

BROWN: Nice to meet you. Thank you.

KERR: Aaron, it's good to be with you. Thank you.

BROWN: Nice to talk to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program tonight, we'll have more on the conclave about to begin in Rome. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: I'm Erica Hill. We'll return to a special edition of NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown just ahead, but first a check of the headlines.

During a heated debate over the fate of Terri Schiavo, her parents frequently claimed her husband Michael mistreated the brain- damaged woman and wasn't qualified to be in charge of her care. But documents released today by Florida's Department of Children and Family Services conclude there is no evidence to support such claims. Terri Schiavo died on March 31st, after her feeding tube was removed over the objections of her parents.

The FDA is keeping in place a ban on products with higher doses of Ephedra. Decision comes one day after a judge threw out the agency's ban on lower doses of the once popular weight control diet supplement. That ruling applied to 10 milligrams or less. The FDA pulled Ephedra off the market last year, after its use was linked to heart attacks and strokes. Manufacturers, however, insist it is safe when used as directed.

Nobody escapes tax day, not even the president. The grand total of the first family's taxable income -- $673,000. And that tally does include the president's $400,000 salary, as well as investment earnings. Of course, the big income tax -- income, rather, brings a big tax bill. More than $207,000 to Uncle Sam. The Bushes also contributed more than $77,000 to charities and churches.

NASA is testing a new automated technology system that could one day lead to an automated docking system for spacecraft. The satellite, known as DART, was sent into orbit today. It is designed to locate and rendezvous with another target satellite with no direction from the ground. DART is expected to complete 50 pre- programmed sets of maneuvers, including flying around the target satellite, moving in close and backing away.

I'm Erica Hill. That's the latest from HEADLINE NEWS. We'll rejoin a special edition of NEWSNIGHT just ahead, but first, he was unlike any Soviet leader before him, and he was the last. As part of CNN's 25th anniversary series, "Then & Now," we look back at the historical impact of the man known as Gorby and what he's doing today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILL (voice-over): With a wine-colored birthmark on his forehead, there's no mistaking Mikhail Gorbachev.

The former Soviet president is still a household word, Gorby, the man who helped end the Cold War.

In 1985, Gorbachev became Communist Party chief, the Soviet Union's top job. But with his charisma and charm, he broke the mold. And so did his elegant wife, Raisa. Creator of perestroika -- reform -- and glasnost -- openness -- he tried to reshape the Soviet Union.

In August 1991, hard-liners attempted a coup. Boris Yeltsin came to his rescue, but in December of that same year, Gorbachev resigned, and the Soviet Union was dissolved.

A few months later, he started the Gorbachev Foundation, dedicated to democratic values, and raised money for it by starring in an ad for Pizza Hut.

He's also founding president of an environmental group called Green Cross International. His wife, Raisa, battled a rare form of leukemia and died in September 1999.

These days, Gorbachev still travels the world, speaking out on nuclear disarmament, the environment and poverty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I think that was the rooster's most solemn crowing.

I talked a lot about who will be the next pope. Take a look at how in this case, mostly "Time" magazine but we may throw in one newspaper, has looked at popes over time. And obviously, they have, as you'll see in a moment, done it a lot.

This is the "Time" cover from August the 21st, 1978. They could run this this week and it would work just fine. They just have to change some of the faces. "In Search of a Pope." And then they list some candidates. And then you might notice here the question mark candidate. It actually turned out to be the question mark candidate, because on September 4th had the pope on the cover, and this was John Paul I. And the cover that "Time" magazine put out. The other story up there, "Black Hole: Science's Ultimate Mystery." Thirty-three days later, John Paul I would die. And so, "Time" magazine came back on October -- well, it's not that they came back; obviously, they'd been publishing. But this is the cover on October 30th, 1978. A young John Paul. He was 58 years old, as my memory serves. And that's the first "Time" magazine cover of John Paul. There would be others, as we'll show you.

Just go now back in time a little bit -- back in time, I didn't mean it that way. This is the "Time" magazine cover on August the 16th, 1943. The pope this time is Pope Pius XXII. Perhaps no modern pope, 20th century pope is more mired in controversy. There's always been questions about whether he did enough, said enough about Nazi behavior, particularly towards Jews and the Holocaust. His opposition to the state of Israel is part of the reason why when Pope John Paul went to Israel and particularly went to the Western Wall, it was seen symbolically as such an important thing.

Anyway, now, look, here's the deal to me. Look at that picture. OK? Now, you know him. And there is a kind of gentleness in that face, right?

That looks like he's kind of tough-looking. That stern, stern would be the right word.

A couple more. John Paul -- Pope John XXIII. This is the headline, November 10th, 1958. I just turned 10 years old on that day. You can see the white smoke in the background. This is a really good example of you never know how someone is going to turn out. Pope John XXIII, because of Vatican II, became a hugely important, influential pope and was named "Time's" man of the year on January 4th, 1963. On the subject of man of the year, Pope John Paul became the man of the year on December 26th, 1994. That's how "Time" heralded that. And in case you missed it the other day -- this is just, I think, a wonderful, lovely picture. This is the picture "Time" ran, the April 11th edition on the death of John Paul, just the other day. I love that picture.

We'll take a break and wrap it up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We're in Oklahoma City on Monday for the 10th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. And we hope you'll join us for that. Have a good weekend, and good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 15, 2005 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
It's fair to say that until two weeks ago, conclave, wasn't a word many of us tossed around much. The ritual is ancient, it doesn't happen often and when it does, it's wrapped in secrecy, a pocket of mystery in a modern world.

In just over 48 hours, the conclave to elect the 265th pope will begin at the Vatican behind closed doors. We'll spend the next hour on the whys and hows and whos and whats of perhaps the most secretive meeting in the world.

We start tonight with the hows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It is written that Peter, the first pope, chose his own successor. In the two millennia since, popes have been selected by bribery, by mob riot, even pitched battles. To prevent all that, the church decided in the 10th century that only cardinals should be allowed to vote. And even so, it has not always gone smoothly.

The very word conclave is from the Latin meaning "with a key." It comes from a papal election in the 13th century that took almost three years. Finally the citizens outside locked the cardinals in a palace, cut down their food rations and tore off part of the roof, gentle encouragement it seemed, to move things along.

PROFESSOR THOMAS GROOME, BOSTON COLLEGE: We'll pray for these cardinals and for their discernment and that indeed they will choose wisely, but of course, they could make a mistake.

BROWN: Today some of the rules are new, a result of decisions made by pope John Paul II himself in 1996. But as always the cardinals will seclude themselves in the Sistine Chapel to avoid the influences from the outside world. This time, though, they'll have plenty of creature comforts.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: They're going to be living in this new $30 million sort of hotel that John Paul II had built on Vatican grounds called the Doma Santa Marta in which the cardinals will have basically two-room suites.

BROWN: At the start, the cardinals will vote up to four times a day. There are no electronic voting machines, the handwritten ballots haven't changed since pope John Paul VI designed them in the '60s.

ALLEN: In order to ensure that these guys are voting in conscience for the man that they think is best for the job and not for any other reason, whether its career reasons, political reasons or anything else, they are instructed to disguise their handwriting so it will remain forever a mystery for whom they voted.

BROWN: One by one each cardinal will walk to the altar beneath Michelangelo's "Last Judgment" and place his twice folded ballot on a golden plate. He will then tip it into an urn to show he is casting but one ballot.

At the altar, each cardinal then kneels in prayer, rises and declares in prayer that he has made his choice. 115 cardinals will be casting votes, 114 will leave as cardinals. One will leave as pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a procedure that has worked pretty well in the past and we've learned from it. And hopefully it will work well again.

BROWN: Once the vote has been cast, three cardinals randomly chosen act as the scrutineers. One shakes the ballots in the urn to mix them, another counts the ballots to make sure they match the number of cardinals voting. The third reads the name on each ballot out loud. Then once all the ballots have been read, they are bound together with needle and thread, each ballot pierced through the word eligo meaning "I elect."

ALLEN: Essentially it's a way of collecting the ballots to make sure they have them all, so that there aren't any stray ballots floating around.

BROWN: After every voting session, twice a day, the ballots are burned in a furnace near the Sistine Chapel. The smoke visible from St. Peter's Square. Chemicals are added to make the smoke black if a pope has not been selected and white if one has.

GROOME: Hopefully the best choice will have been made when we see the white smoke, but of course only time will tell.

BROWN: As with any election, this one does include campaigning. But it is very quiet, very delicate.

ALLEN: There are hard politics in this process. Take place around the edges. When they break for lunch, when they get up in the morning before they say mass, when they're walking the Vatican gardens.

BROWN: All this continues until a two-thirds majority is reached. In the past, that's taken two to four days, but that's when the cardinals were sleeping on hard cots and not allowed outside until a pope was selected.

ALLEN: It will be interesting to see what impact that has. Part of the reason for making the cardinals physically uncomfortable was to give them a sense of urgency. BROWN: If after three days a winner has not emerged, the cardinals will take a day off for prayer and reflection. Then they'll begin to vote. If 30 votes take place without anyone gaining a two- thirds majority, the cardinals can choose to elect a pope by simple majority.

And when they finally come to a selection, the dean of the college of cardinals asked if he will serve and the candidate responds, accepto, "I accept."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As for who it will be, the short answer is, we barely even know who it might be. Though we do, however, know this. Between Monday and whenever the white smoke rises, the expert will analyze, the gamblers will wager -- they already are -- and because this is perhaps the longest running elective process on the planet, people with a stake in the outcome will try to influence the outcome, or poke fun at it as the case may be.

From Rome tonight, CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The millions paying their last respects to Pope John Paul have made it clear to those who will elect the next pope that they'll need to find someone who can inspire people the way he did. And now everyone seems to have an opinion about who that might be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he's in the eighth place in the running for being pope.

BITTERMANN: Take David Danny, for example. If papal elections are supposed to be secretive and subtle, nobody told them.

Still the two humorists from Belgian TV are absolutely serious about getting their local cardinal elected pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's for women, he's for using condoms if people have AIDS. All the things that's real.

BITTERMANN: In truth, Dave and Danny's campaign may not have much impact. This is an election like no other. There are only 115 voters. And every voter is a potential candidate. And among this electorate, there's no such thing as opinion polling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May I ask a question, one quick question.

BITTERMANN: So how do you influence these secretive voters? Sister Joan Chittister and other members of the organization We Are the Church, followed to Rome to the United States knowing this is the first papal election in 26 years. It seemed now or never to push their agenda of women's rights and more theological democracy.

SISTER JOAN CHITTISTER, BENEDICTINE NUN: I have no idea what effects the moment and these kinds of conferences are having. But I do know this, it is very difficult to believe that bishops and cardinals from around the world don't realize that this is a globe that is seething with questions.

BITTERMANN: Others are trying modern approaches. There are Internet fan clubs for some candidates where you can purchase their t- shirts, mugs and refrigerator magnets.

There are bloggers who fire off their papal preferences to the entire world wide web, even if they doubt the cardinals will take notice.

And there's an e-mail campaign trying to stop an Indian cardinal from becoming pope because, they say, he is arrogant and a dismal administrator.

Still, an author of both fiction and nonfiction books about papal elections believes little can influence the cardinals.

FATHER ANDREW GREELEY, VATICAN EXPERT: There are people, people who are rich Catholics who would like to try, but I don't think the cardinals, with perhaps a few exceptions, are corruptible. They can't be bought and sold anymore.

BITTERMANN: Anymore, because there have been times when papal elections have been influenced by more than the holy spirit. The papacy has been fought over, and bought and sold.

In modern times, when a pope died during World War I, the cardinals kept a tight lid on their voting fearing reprisals. And on the eve of World War II Hitler and Mussolini tried to pressure the cardinals to vote for someone more conservative than the man who eventually became pope.

(on camera): In the end, those who really can affect the voting laid the groundwork for it years ago. Opus Dei, for example, a traditional Catholic organization, worked hard to find favor with Pope John Paul II.

(voice-over): The fast growing movement started in Europe after World War II to galvanize lay Catholics has built universities and hospitals, organized papal visits and energetically evangelized for the church.

The pope rewarded the movement by canonizing its founder and naming two of its members cardinals. They will be inside the conclave.

Others inside will have influence because of their ideas. Two of the leading candidates for pope have published books. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has one just out urging Europe to return to its Christian roots. Brazil's Claudio Hummes has rushed into stores a book on his views about social justice for the poor and downtrodden.

Both are handy position papers for fellow cardinals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We pray for the college of cardinals as they prepare to enter into the conclave.

BITTERMANN: While the cardinals all say they'll trust heavenly leadership, their backgrounds and earthly concerns are as more likely to influence the way they vote as anything else.

The holy spirit speaks through the numbers, one veteran conclave observer said. Meaning, that if no one is elected at the start of the voting, the cardinals will watch for trends in successive voting rounds, or perhaps compromising on some issues to go with a candidate who can capture two thirds of the votes and win.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: It will be a moment for the history books. Not to mention a moment for the bookmakers. So here now, the perfect piece for a correspondent named Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're both steeped in tradition and practiced by millions. But religion and gambling rarely mixed, until now.

He's an Irish bookie with odds on the next pope, risking Vatican scorn, and perhaps a bolt from the heavens.

PADDY POWER, BOOKMAKER: I don't believe it's in bad taste, to be honest with you. I think -- we took it down for 24 hours when the pope actually did die, as a mark of respect. But overall, it wasn't in bad taste six months ago; I don't think it's in bad taste now. I think it's OK.

Then we have Oscar Rodriguez. He's a 9-2, so a lot of people are tipping him off, because he's a real language buff. He speaks about six or seven languages. They say that will bring the Catholic Church to a wider community.

CHANCE: And it's not the holy spirits deciding the odds. Bookies seriously researched the papabile, cardinals that are likely to become pope. The chances of an Italian, a conservative, even a black pontiff carefully weighed.

POWER: We got about seven reasonable names, and said these guys have a chance. We put odds on them. And then, after that, the market has grown to about 40 names now. So -- and every single one of those, apart from the original seven, are from people calling us or e-mailing us, saying put odds on this guy, put odds on our guy from Australia, put odds on our guy from Honduras or whatever.

CHANCE: And with the papal conclave in Rome sworn to secrecy, there are few insider tips on the best bet.

(on camera): Well, these are the latest odds. Francis Arinze of Nigeria, a joint favorite with Dionigi Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan. They're both at 11-4. Followed closely by Cardinal Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, at 9-2. Then comes Joseph Ratzinger of Germany. He's been placed at 7-1, followed by Claudio Hummes of Brazil. After that, the people with a more outside chance of becoming pope, at 14-1 and bigger.

(voice-over): But it is a gamble not everyone's prepared to take.

Well, I had a lot of respect for the pope. And I just won't bet on religion. Anything else, yeah.

CHANCE (on camera): Are you likely to have a flutter on the pope?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

CHANCE: Why is that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just too many other things to bet on, really. I think it would be hard to pick a winner.

CHANCE (voice-over): A winner the church's cardinals believe they'll have divine guidance in picking, whatever the odds.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Dublin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We have much more ahead tonight, starting with supper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't want you in the kitchen. They're going to serve you a very fine meal, but they don't want you in the kitchen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Of kitchens and courts and cardinals. Do we really need all this mystery when it comes to choosing the pope?

Also, mystery and intrigue. And antimatter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somewhere around a millionth of a gram of antimatter, it would be capable of powering a ship in the one-year trip from Earth to Mars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: OK, wise guy, so where does the conclave come in?

And later, the push to make John Paul a saint sooner.

No miracles here, though, just a special edition of NEWSNIGHT. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Erica Hill. We'll return to a special edition of NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown in just a moment. But first, a check of the headlines.

A Utah man has agreed to a plea deal in a murder case highly publicized last summer. In an exchange for admitting to killing his wife in their Salt Lake City apartment, Mark Hacking will get between six years and life in prison. Prosecutors say Hacking killed his wife Lori after she discovered he lied about enrolling in medical school.

Two new government reports are suggesting the billions spent on improving airport security checkpoints have been a waste of your tax dollars. The House Aviation Subcommittee has been briefed now on the findings. The members admit the results are disappointing.

The reports say both the government screeners and the private contractors are underperforming the Transportation Security Administration -- are underperforming, rather. The Transportation Security Administration took over screening at about 450 airports in 2002 and hired over 45,000 workers. One committee member said the only solution is better technology.

Amtrak is canceling all of its high-speed Acela Express trains between Washington and Boston, citing brake problems. Acela runs 20 percent of the weekday service on Amtrak's flagship Northeast corridor. An estimated 10,000 passengers had to find seats on other trains today. A spokesman says routine inspections uncovered cracks on many of the fleet's brake rotors.

And you probably heard the story by now about the woman who said she found a finger in her chili from a Wendy's restaurant. Well, now, Wendy's is doubling its reward for information about that incident to $100,000. The company says the bad publicity has hurt sales and forced some layoffs. The woman, by the way, who made that claim last month has since dropped her legal case against Wendy's.

And that's the latest from HEADLINE NEWS at this hour. I'm Erica Hill. We now rejoin a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

BROWN: Simon & Schuster says the approaching conclave is spurring the sales of "Angels and Demons," a novel by Dan Brown, who five years ago published it before he wrote the blockbuster best- seller the "Da Vinci Code." The "Da Vinci Code" did not win Mr. Brown friends at the Vatican. One cardinal, a former church official, called the book "heresy." The church has not as yet criticized "Angels and Demons," a thriller that includes purported details on the inner workings of the conclave.

That said, we wondered how fiction stands up to the facts. So here's NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Angels and Demons" is full of references to real events, real people, real places. All the writing about works of art and architecture is said to be entirely factual. There are even accurate scale maps of Rome and Vatican City, to help readers follow the novel's action. But for all that, the story is a weave of the real and the invented.

REV. JOHN COUGHLIN, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: This book sounds a lot like the "Da Vinci Code." It's a great read, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, but it contains enormous historical errors and fabrications.

NISSEN: "Angels and Demons" unfolds just after the death of a fictional pope. As is happening now in Rome, in the book the cardinals have gathered for the conclave to elect the next pope. Security is tight. The Sistine Chapel has been swept for listening devices.

COUGHLIN: There is actually an electronic sweeping of the chapel right before the cardinals go into the conclave.

NISSEN: When the fictional conclave begins, the cardinals are sealed into the chapel, under lock and key and heavy guard.

COUGHLIN: No, that's not true at all. While the voting is taking place, only the cardinals are present and it is sealed in that sense.

NISSEN: In the book, four cardinals are discovered missing. The preferiti, the leading candidates to be pope.

Do real conclaves have preferiti?

COUGHLIN: There are candidates. I think that the cardinals have certain of their members in mind who they think would make a good pope.

NISSEN: Finding the missing cardinals and safeguarding the Vatican is the job in the book of the Swiss Guard. They are real, although they aren't quite the special forces the book describes.

COUGHLIN: The Swiss Guard are a kind of quasi-military police force. They do carry weapons, there is an arsenal. And they're trained in security.

NISSEN: They'd hardly be a match for the bad guys in the book, a shadowy underground organization known as the Illuminati, with a centuries old vendetta against the Catholic Church. The books author says the cult known of the Brotherhood of the Illuminati is factual. Some church historians aren't so sure.

COUGHLIN: There was a medieval group who were called the Illuminati. It refers to people who have a certain stage of development in their spiritual lives, where they've been illuminated by the light of Christ.

NISSEN: What of the weapon of mass destruction the Illuminati in the book try to use to blow up Vatican City? An Illuminati agent has stolen it from CERN, a very real physics research center near Geneva Switzerland, that actually does have a 18-mile-long particle accelerator. In the book, two physicist use that atom smasher for an alleged breakthrough, the first creation of antimatter in a laboratory.

STEVE LAUTENSCHLAGER, PARTICLE PHYSICIST: This is one of the more major errors in book, is that one of the characters actually says, this is the first antimatter. It's not the first antimatter. It's been around for nearly 100 years.

NISSEN: The book describes antimatter as 1,000 times more powerful than nuclear energy -- true?

LAUTENSCHLAGER: Somewhere around a millionth of a gram of antimatter would be capable of powering a ship in the one-year trip from Earth to Mars.

NISSEN: If it could be collected and stored, which the fictional physicists have done, but real physicists can't yet do. At least, one physicist is forgiving of the errors in the book.

LAUTENSCHLAGER: I would say any publicity for science or particle physics in general is good.

NISSEN: And the priest?

COUGHLIN: It doesn't take away from the enjoyment of reading the novel, but people shouldn't take it as historical piece.

NISSEN: A novel idea. Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So now here's a what if. What if you could watch the Conclave next week on C-Span?

Would it hold the same kind of interest it seems to hold now? Cable might not make the business at hand any less significant, but it certainly would eliminate the mystery, and the majesty the church seems to need. And, frankly, people can't seem to get enough of. Can't, and in this age of full disclosure, don't.

So here's our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Crossing the line...

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST (voice-over): When the United States picks a leader, it's as open a process as we can make it.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My vision is...

GREENFIELD: Candidates talk to us, listen to us. Argue with each other. AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: What about the Norwood Bill?

GREENFIELD: Duel with the press.

KERRY: No questions.

GREENFIELD: They put their families on display, tell us about their childhood and their children.

GORE: My kid, my grandson.

GREENFIELD: And sometimes they tell us...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, the world's dying know, is it boxers or briefs?

GREENFIELD: More than we might want to know.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Usually briefs.

GREENFIELD: And in recent years once largely unseen views of our government, House and Senate floor debates, for example, are now regular television fare. But if the past is any guidance, when the cardinals gather in the Vatican to choose a new pope, the official photograph will be the first and only glimpse the public will get of that Conclave. When the doors close, the only clue to what's going on behind those doors will be the smoke billowing from the chimney. Even when white smoke appears and bells ring, when the announcement is made. That's all we'll know about what happened and why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They kind of look at it like they're running a restaurant, they don't want you in a kitchen. They're going to serve a very fine meal, but they don't want you in the kitchen.

GREENFIELD: Father Thomas Reese, who edits "America," a Catholic magazine, says there's good reason for such secrecy.

FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: There will be divisions. And the one thing that the hierarchy never wants to show to the people is division.

GREENFIELD: But there's also another benefit to the private nature of the decision making, the absence of public quarreling or pettiness lends an air of stature to the proceedings. In this sense the College of Cardinals has something in common with an American government institution uniquely exempt from public scrutiny, the U.S. Supreme Court. TV and still cameras are barred from oral arguments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you give by telling us our federal jurisdiction?

GREENFIELD: Only rarely does the court permit audiotape of the arguments to be released as it did when it decided to end the vote count in the 2000 election. While its decisions are public along with the sense, what actually happens in its conference room is a secret. Mostly a well kept one says former Supreme Court clerk, Cliff Sloan.

CLIFF SLOAN, PUBLISHER, "SLATE" MAGAZINE: It's a very important part of what gives the court its special authority in the life of the country. It's what gives people confidence in the court's role. If the court was leaking during the course of a decision, the court would lose something important about its authority when it issues a decision.

GREENFIELD (on camera): Such secrecy may run against the grain of the public's right to know, but Americans should remember the most enduring charter of freedom the U.S. Constitution, was hammered out more than 200 years ago during a hot Philadelphia summer strictly behind closed doors.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There's already a lot of talk at the Vatican about naming Pope John Paul II a saint. The decision, of course, belongs to his successor. He may do what John Paul did, change some of the long established guidelines and put the late pope on the fast track, if you will. That would please many of the faithful who have gathered in St. Peter's.

Here's Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST (voice-over): Saint now, they chanted. Remarkable, even stunning outburst of emotion taking place at the funeral of Pope John Paul II. To many, the late pontiff did lead the kind of life required for sainthood. His early years of manual labor in Poland, his commitment to the priestly life when such a vocation was illegal under Nazi rule. His stubborn resistance to communism and his final months of physical suffering.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many hearts has he changed? I mean, that we haven't seen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had worked miracles in the heart of each one.

GALLAGHER: Some have already described miraculous healings by the pope in his lifetime, but that is not enough for sainthood. At the Vatican, where saints watch over popes and worshipers alike, the rules are very clear. The process can't even begin until five years after a candidate's death.

PHIL PULLELLA, REUTERS VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: John Paul II broke the rules himself by setting a precedent by allowing the beatification procedure for Mother Teresa of Calcutta to begin only two years after her death, instead of five years after her death.

GALLAGHER: Elevation to sainthood requires more than just evidence of a holy life. There must also be two miracles attributed to the pope after his death. For example, someone whose prayers to the late pontiff results in a healing that can't be explained by science. Sainthood for John Paul II, will depend on one of these men, many of whom already support the fast track.

Cardinal Jose Saraiva was chief of the congregation in charge of making recommendations of sainthood to John Paul II.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next pope will decide. We'll have to wait.

GALLAGHER: That decision may not be too difficult for the next pope. Certainly those waiting at the doorstep of St. Peter's have cast their ballots. I asked these teenagers from Sicily if the pope should be made a saint.

GROUP: Si!

GALLAGHER (on camera): In the early church saints were made by public acclamation. From this square and around the globe, the Vatican has heard the voices of the people raised in support for the canonization of John Paul II, the man who made more saints than anyone else may one day join them.

Delia Gallagher for CNN, Vatican City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In a moment, back to the real state stakes at hand for whoever is chosen to lead the church next. Take a break first. From New York this is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Among the hows and whys about the next pope there are also the whats. Because the Catholic Church is a worldwide institution that has an impact on Catholics and non-Catholics alike, what kind of leader does it need to move forward in an ever changing world? Monsignor William Kerr is the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center in Washington. He's with us tonight.

Nice to see you.

MONSIGNOR WILLIAM KERR, POPE JOHN PAUL II CULTURAL CENTER: Good to be with you.

BROWN: How should the next pope be different from John Paul?

KERR: Well, I think he, first of all, should be Like John Paul in the sense that he will reach out to the world as John Paul did. Someone said to me the other day, how will anyone fill John Paul's shoes? And my response is, no one will fill those shoes. They'll be new shoes. It will be a new person with a new signature.

But common with John Paul, that person will have to be a communicator but not just one that communicates words but one that communicates feeling and love as I think the man did. BROWN: Is this a new definition of a pope? Or is this what the pope should always have been or always has been?

KERR: Well, I think with the change of time, now the global reach is possible. Prior to that, it was a regional city reach. But now it's a worldwide reach. And I think it is a new, if you will, time in the papacy. A pope can no longer be a prisoner in the Vatican, can no longer just be focused on one point of the world.

BROWN: It can't be -- it can be whatever it want. I don't get a vote. But it can't be Robert Redford in the candidate, if you know what I mean. I mean, it can't be that. It has to be something more substantial. It can't be somebody who puts on the vestment and say, now what do we do?

KERR: I don't think it's a person that's just image. I don't think that. And I don't think it a person who just globetrots for the sake of getting out there and waving at crowds. I think it has to be a person of substance, a person who passion, who feels about things.

I think the world has more expectations now of the pope than at any time in history, because they have met him, they've seen the pope. And he's come to their villages and their countries.

BROWN: In what sense then does the pope no longer -- does a pope no longer belong simply to the Catholic Church?

KERR: Well, I think in the fullest sense possible, that's true.

The pope will have to govern the Catholic Church. The pope will have to state and restate doctrines that are perennially consistent with the teachings of the Church and the pope will have to make decisions that relate to the governance, the appointment of bishops, et cetera, et cetera.

But more than that, the pope will have to be the shepherd of the flock that is the world. It doesn't mean that he has to hope or even try to make everyone Catholic in the sense of converting them. But he's got to go out and love them, just as the Christ, whose vicar he is, did. And I think that this pope did that beautifully on the world stage.

The fact that he was an actor. And he knew something about the presence certainly helped him. And I think -- I just don't think that a pope cannot do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'll have more of our conversation with Monsignor Kerr. We'll take a short break first. From around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Does the -- I want to figure out the delicate way to ask this. Does a church that is as top down, if you will, as the Catholic Church is, can it thrive in a modern time when people want a voice in, want choices in -- are not that thrilled about being told what to do all the time?

KERR: I think the answer to that question, if I may, is yes and no. I think the church can thrive to the extent that it continues the process that's been in operation for the last 30 years, slowly at times, but certainly in process of decentralizing. There's a great deal of decentralization in the church, even though from the outside appearances are that it's a very tightly knit and tightly centralized institution.

There have been many, many, if you will, liturgical changes that have reflected the indigenous needs of peoples. And there have been many, many, if you will, disciplinary changes. There's been a shared governance in some ways throughout the church in various regions.

BROWN: But in some respects, it is fair to say that John Paul centralized authority in the Vatican, didn't decentralize authority in the Vatican.

KERR: He was a person who by his very presence and very charisma, he centralized things, they looked toward him.

He was a man of convictions. He spoke his convictions. He wrote prolifically. I mean he just wrote more, I'm sure, than any pope has written before. He published more.

He was the kind of person that centered, if you will, attention on himself. And to the extent that he was that leader, there is a great deal of centralization also. And I don't mean to suggest there was not.

But there are tensions within the church in those two directions. And I think it's going to be interesting to see as -- you know, the church is no longer European.

BROWN: Certainly not.

KERR: It is so much more broadly now throughout the world, and I think you're going to see an awful lot of changes take place.

BROWN: Just as an outsider looking in, what I find interesting, it's not unusual, every other religion to one degree or another has this, is that the church is actually a number of different churches, even though it exists under one umbrella. What the -- what African bishops might want and African Catholics might want or Latin American Catholics might want is vastly different than what American Catholics might want.

KERR: Yes.

BROWN: And other religions, it seems to me, I mean, you can be an Orthodox Jew, a Reform Jew, you can kind of find your way in. Catholicism doesn't really offer that. And so I'm wondering how does the church reconcile what sometimes are very different theological views?

KERR: You know, I think it reconciles them. You know, we have in the Catholic Church this belief that the church is built on the rock of Peter and that Peter is the sign of unity. And that sense is the primate of the entire church.

Now, the fact that things are different in different regions of the world than in Rome, that's something that's just real. And that's going to -- as the world changes -- the world is continually changing at a rapid, rapid pace, you know, there's going to have to be greater communication between the outside and the inside, if you will. There is going to have to be dialogue. There's going to have to be, you know, just a coming together.

But the central -- not to mean centralized -- but the central place is Rome, and Peter is the sign of unity. And I think that's where everything has to go around.

For instance, translations of liturgical texts. They have to be in sync, if I may use that expression, with the Roman doctrines and the dogmas of the church. They have to be appropriate to the liturgies of the church. And if something is extremely meaningful in one region of the church but violates what the church centrally stands for, if you will, well, there has to be a reconciliation. And that has to happen through dialogue.

One of the things I think we'll see more of will be dialogue. I think there will be a lot more talk back and forth. I think the cardinals who are meeting now in Rome are probably having some very serious conversations among themselves about the next pope. It's going to be interesting, it's going to be an interesting church.

BROWN: In that regard, a last question. Because it wasn't -- you know, we forget this, but when that man, when John Paul walked to that window 26 years and what, four or five months ago.

KERR: Yes.

BROWN: We didn't know who he was going to become. Popes are oddly like Supreme Court judges. They have names and they have resumes, but what they're going to be is a product of time and the times.

KERR: That's right.

BROWN: In these days, does the next pope have that luxury to become something?

KERR: Well, I think he does have that luxury. You know, I have found in my life, whenever I have moved from one, if you will, position to another position, I have always had to sort of grow into that position. Yes, I think the new pope will do that, and I think it will be an interesting growth. And we don't know, even when he stands at the window and gives his blessing, we don't know who he is going to be five years from now.

But I think with the grace of God, he will grow into something. And it will be interesting to watch, to grow along with him. And I think with the grace of God and with a whole lot of other people who will be talking to him, he will become something.

BROWN: Nice to meet you. Thank you.

KERR: Aaron, it's good to be with you. Thank you.

BROWN: Nice to talk to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program tonight, we'll have more on the conclave about to begin in Rome. This is a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: I'm Erica Hill. We'll return to a special edition of NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown just ahead, but first a check of the headlines.

During a heated debate over the fate of Terri Schiavo, her parents frequently claimed her husband Michael mistreated the brain- damaged woman and wasn't qualified to be in charge of her care. But documents released today by Florida's Department of Children and Family Services conclude there is no evidence to support such claims. Terri Schiavo died on March 31st, after her feeding tube was removed over the objections of her parents.

The FDA is keeping in place a ban on products with higher doses of Ephedra. Decision comes one day after a judge threw out the agency's ban on lower doses of the once popular weight control diet supplement. That ruling applied to 10 milligrams or less. The FDA pulled Ephedra off the market last year, after its use was linked to heart attacks and strokes. Manufacturers, however, insist it is safe when used as directed.

Nobody escapes tax day, not even the president. The grand total of the first family's taxable income -- $673,000. And that tally does include the president's $400,000 salary, as well as investment earnings. Of course, the big income tax -- income, rather, brings a big tax bill. More than $207,000 to Uncle Sam. The Bushes also contributed more than $77,000 to charities and churches.

NASA is testing a new automated technology system that could one day lead to an automated docking system for spacecraft. The satellite, known as DART, was sent into orbit today. It is designed to locate and rendezvous with another target satellite with no direction from the ground. DART is expected to complete 50 pre- programmed sets of maneuvers, including flying around the target satellite, moving in close and backing away.

I'm Erica Hill. That's the latest from HEADLINE NEWS. We'll rejoin a special edition of NEWSNIGHT just ahead, but first, he was unlike any Soviet leader before him, and he was the last. As part of CNN's 25th anniversary series, "Then & Now," we look back at the historical impact of the man known as Gorby and what he's doing today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILL (voice-over): With a wine-colored birthmark on his forehead, there's no mistaking Mikhail Gorbachev.

The former Soviet president is still a household word, Gorby, the man who helped end the Cold War.

In 1985, Gorbachev became Communist Party chief, the Soviet Union's top job. But with his charisma and charm, he broke the mold. And so did his elegant wife, Raisa. Creator of perestroika -- reform -- and glasnost -- openness -- he tried to reshape the Soviet Union.

In August 1991, hard-liners attempted a coup. Boris Yeltsin came to his rescue, but in December of that same year, Gorbachev resigned, and the Soviet Union was dissolved.

A few months later, he started the Gorbachev Foundation, dedicated to democratic values, and raised money for it by starring in an ad for Pizza Hut.

He's also founding president of an environmental group called Green Cross International. His wife, Raisa, battled a rare form of leukemia and died in September 1999.

These days, Gorbachev still travels the world, speaking out on nuclear disarmament, the environment and poverty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I think that was the rooster's most solemn crowing.

I talked a lot about who will be the next pope. Take a look at how in this case, mostly "Time" magazine but we may throw in one newspaper, has looked at popes over time. And obviously, they have, as you'll see in a moment, done it a lot.

This is the "Time" cover from August the 21st, 1978. They could run this this week and it would work just fine. They just have to change some of the faces. "In Search of a Pope." And then they list some candidates. And then you might notice here the question mark candidate. It actually turned out to be the question mark candidate, because on September 4th had the pope on the cover, and this was John Paul I. And the cover that "Time" magazine put out. The other story up there, "Black Hole: Science's Ultimate Mystery." Thirty-three days later, John Paul I would die. And so, "Time" magazine came back on October -- well, it's not that they came back; obviously, they'd been publishing. But this is the cover on October 30th, 1978. A young John Paul. He was 58 years old, as my memory serves. And that's the first "Time" magazine cover of John Paul. There would be others, as we'll show you.

Just go now back in time a little bit -- back in time, I didn't mean it that way. This is the "Time" magazine cover on August the 16th, 1943. The pope this time is Pope Pius XXII. Perhaps no modern pope, 20th century pope is more mired in controversy. There's always been questions about whether he did enough, said enough about Nazi behavior, particularly towards Jews and the Holocaust. His opposition to the state of Israel is part of the reason why when Pope John Paul went to Israel and particularly went to the Western Wall, it was seen symbolically as such an important thing.

Anyway, now, look, here's the deal to me. Look at that picture. OK? Now, you know him. And there is a kind of gentleness in that face, right?

That looks like he's kind of tough-looking. That stern, stern would be the right word.

A couple more. John Paul -- Pope John XXIII. This is the headline, November 10th, 1958. I just turned 10 years old on that day. You can see the white smoke in the background. This is a really good example of you never know how someone is going to turn out. Pope John XXIII, because of Vatican II, became a hugely important, influential pope and was named "Time's" man of the year on January 4th, 1963. On the subject of man of the year, Pope John Paul became the man of the year on December 26th, 1994. That's how "Time" heralded that. And in case you missed it the other day -- this is just, I think, a wonderful, lovely picture. This is the picture "Time" ran, the April 11th edition on the death of John Paul, just the other day. I love that picture.

We'll take a break and wrap it up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We're in Oklahoma City on Monday for the 10th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. And we hope you'll join us for that. Have a good weekend, and good night for all of us.

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