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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Police Identify Four Suspects in London Bombings; NASA Set for Launch Tomorrow

Aired July 12, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AARON BROWN, HOST: Twenty-four hours ago, police in London weren't saying much of anything. Tonight is a very different story.
After a day of major breaks in the investigation into last week's terror attacks in London, four suspects have been identified. British police say at least one of them, possibly more, likely died in the bombings. So far, investigators are not calling the men suicide bombers. So far. But what we learned today raises the chilling possibility.

We have several reports from London tonight, beginning with the series of raids early this morning.

Here's CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is where police got their biggest break. The Tanweer family house in Leeds, raided with five others in the early hours Tuesday.

The family, of Pakistani origin, called a police hotline within hours of the attack last week, reporting their 22-year-old son, Shehzad, missing.

COLIN CRAMPHORN, CHIEF CONSTABLE, WEST YORKSHIRE: One person had been reported missing to the casualty bureau, the central casualty bureau. And of course, actions were taken accordingly around that.

ROBERTSON: The early-morning swoops based on that lead, surprising neighbors.

CARL WHITELY, NEIGHBOR: Police outside, I pulled the curtains back, like, "Oh my God."

ROBERTSON: Another neighbor, who didn't want to be identified, told Britain's ITV News that Shehzad and some local friends had visited Afghanistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I went to Afghanistan for a couple of months and stayed in Pakistan four months at Lahore. That's what he told me.

ROBERTSON: The same neighbor said he saw Shehzad looking happy, working in the family's chip shop just a few days before the bombing. (on camera) In this street, neighbors say many of the families are from Pakistan and the Kashmir region. In the area as a whole, Muslims make up a relatively small part of the population.

(voice-over) Modest row houses make up this very mixed community. The impact a bomber could have come from in their midst beginning to weigh heavily upon them.

Police, however, concerned there may be a backlash against the community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I ask that people continue to become resilient and measured in what they say and how they act.

ROBERTSON: As the forensic investigation continued, police reported other breaks in the case. An arrest during the raids in Leeds and the discovery of the Shehzad's personal belongings on the blown-up bus in London.

PETER CLARKE, SCOTLAND YARD ANTI-TERRORISM BRANCH: We have now been able to establish that he was joined on his journey to London by three other men. We have since found personal documents bearing the names of three of those four men, close to the seats of three of the explosions.

ROBERTSON: Of the four men, at least one dead, according to the police. The status of the others unknown. But much evidence indicating they, too, might have died.

Another potential lead found just north of London, a car full of explosives.

CLARKE: At Luton, a vehicle has been found in the station car park which we suspect is connected to this investigation. Again, steps are being taken to ensure that there is no risk to the public.

ROBERTSON: The raids in Leeds also led to the discovery of explosives. Police warn the investigation could be lengthy.

CLARKE: I'm sure you'll understand that in this fast-moving and very complex situation, it would not be appropriate for me to answer questions about other aspects of the investigation.

ROBERTSON: Many questions do remain. Not least of which, are any of the bomb plotters still on the loose?

What is clear, though, is that the police are keeping key information to themselves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And what's been surprising about this while we've been standing on this street, a young man came to me this evening and he said, "I was going to be playing football with Shehzad. I saw him earlier in the week. He said we were going to play. Then a couple of days before the bomb went off, we tried to call him, his phone was dead."

People very, very surprised that this young man could have been involved here, Aaron.

BROWN: Is there any -- what a difference a night makes, Nic. But is there any indication, do we have any evidence or any information that he was in any way associated with radical groups? Did he hang out at any of those mosques that you reported on the other night? Any associations that suggest that?

ROBERTSON: In this community, people say that he did go to the mosque five times a day, that he was, perhaps, more religious than his younger brother, for example. But they're not saying -- they're not aware of him mixing with any -- any of that type of radical group here in the Leeds area.

Again, the only indication coming from that British television ITV interview with one of the neighbors, saying that he'd gone to Afghanistan. That appears to be the only indication that he could have been involved with extremist elements within the Muslim community.

BROWN: Nic, in the police briefing today, did they indicate that they believed that he or any of the other three people, that they're -- that they have as suspects, had known associations with radical groups?

ROBERTSON: Absolutely no indications given whatsoever. This has been very, very characteristic. And I think what we've seen today has borne that out, very characteristic. The police playing things very close to their chest.

Yesterday, it appeared that they didn't have any leads, that we speculated that perhaps they did know a lot more than they were saying. That clearly has been -- clearly has been the case. But they're not saying at all that these young men were involved in any such radical and extremist type groups. They've been very, very tight-lipped about what they know, Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

Twenty-four hours ago we didn't know much of anything. Now we know a little more, but we're not sure what it all means. Thank you, Nic Robertson, tonight in London.

The trail leading to the four suspects identified today was the product of many clues and a lot of basic police footwork. In the five days since the bombings, police have been carrying out a painstaking chore of sifting through literally thousands and thousands of surveillance videotapes, one of which would prove crucial.

That part of the story, in London, CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They've screened 2,500 security tapes like these to get here. Now police say they've connected four men to the London bombings, caught on surveillance cameras, arriving in London just minutes before the bombings took place.

(on camera) Well, this is King's Cross Station where the four suspects are known to have traveled by train from Leeds in the north of England down here to London. They were caught on the security cameras here, and police have identified them as being here on this very concourse at just about 8:30 in the morning, on Thursday, the 7th of July.

That they then went their separate ways to the tube station over there, to the buses over there. And just 20 minutes later, the bombs exploded at 8:50.

(voice-over) It's at the Aldgate Station bombing a few stops from King's Cross where the puzzle begins to fit together. Police say forensic evidence suggests one of the four men died on the train. And a look at the locations of the other attacks indicates the bombers purposely spread out for maximum chaos.

(on camera) Let me show you this tube map, which shows us just how close all these attacks were. You can see we're at King's Cross St. Pancras Station here. Aldgate, where one of the attacks took place, just a short train ride away. Seven people were killed there.

To the west, we see Edgware Road. Again, a single line from King's Cross. Another seven killed there.

And then to the south of King's Cross, just a short distance here towards Russell Square on the Piccadilly Line. Now 25 people, according to the police, confirmed dead.

(voice-over) The three bombs exploded within 50 seconds of each other, the fourth exploding 57 minutes later on a bus not far away at Tavistock Square, now a crime scene.

Police say they have forensic evidence placing the suspects at three of the bomb sites, suggesting they all died in the blasts and perhaps lifting the lid on the gang that carried out these London bomb attacks.

Matthew Chance, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The investigation is just one thread of the story. Another search continues, as well, deep below the streets of London: recovering the bodies of 52 people who were killed in the bombings, a daunting task, that.

Authorities so far have identified the bodies of 11 victims.

We are also slowly learning more about those who survived. People we first saw in still photographs in the hours after the attack. One image especially haunting. Until now, we knew her only as the woman with the mask.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): A reporter who first encountered her last Thursday on the Circle Line train tells the story this way. She began to cry. Her face was burning, not long after this man put a protective mask on that face and walked that woman to safety, two strangers joined.

PAUL DADGE, HELPED DAVINIA TURRELL: I believe her name's Davinia. I don't really know any more about her other than that.

BROWN: That was just the day after. Today we know more. Her full name is Davinia Turrell.

LOUISE WELLS, VICTIM'S SISTER: She remembers a blast and a ball of fire.

BROWN: She's being treated at London's Chelsea and Westminster Hospital.

WELLS: The burns to her left side of her face, which are -- the doctor said superficial. So there's a lot more people out there that suffered a lot more than Davinia. It was really good how they put the mask on her straight away, because that helped a lot.

BROWN: Paul Dadge, the former firefighter who came to Davinia's aid, says she reacted like so many other Londoners did that day.

DADGE: She was very calm. And very controlled. And she was being very, very brave.

WELLS: She started today to kind of laugh and joke, which is really cool. Because she's a very kind of happy person.

BROWN: The white gauze hid who she really is, a 24-year-old who graduated from law school last month, who lost her mother to cancer last month, who was en route to a new job as a trainee in a corporate tax firm. A young woman caught that day in tragedy, who is being very, very brave, and who we hope will have many happier times in the days ahead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: After a fast-moving day in London, we're joined now in Washington by Steve Simon, senior analyst at the Rand Corporation, author of the upcoming book "The Next Attack."

Steve, of all the things you heard today, what's the most intriguing to you?

STEVE SIMON, SENIOR ANALYST, RAND CORPORATION: I think the most intriguing thing is the way in which this group of young men seemed to coalesce completely below the radar screen of law enforcement authorities and intelligence agencies. BROWN: The fact that they had no -- at least as far as we know, they had no known associations with radical groups, that they had pretty much existed within their communities without attracting any particular attention for political reasons?

SIMON: That seems to be the case. The idea that they may have been to Afghanistan is also intriguing, although of course that story is unconfirmed at this point.

But it looks like this group, given what we know so far, fits a pattern that has been established in other parts of Europe, in the Netherlands, in Spain, where a group of young men come together, sometimes in a mosque, sometimes in a coffee shop or a community center, or they gather in late-night bull sessions in their apartments and decide they need to strike a blow for the cause.

BROWN: Does that -- does that mean -- do you mean to suggest that there is no -- or might not have been any controlling authority, anyone saying to them, "Here's an idea. Why don't we blow up four -- three subways and a bus, and you guys actually blow it up and maybe blow yourselves up, too?"

SIMON: Well, there are two broad possibilities. In each of the possibilities, the group has pulled itself together. But in the one possibility, someone from the outside has been contacted by this group or has become aware of the group and shepherds its activities and provides it with the materials and perhaps the tactical guidance to carry out the attack.

BROWN: Steve, which do you think is more likely?

SIMON: We don't really have enough evidence right now to say.

BROWN: OK. Do we have -- does the bomb or what little we know about the bomb or bombs, this is a final question, tell us anything about the level of sophistication of the people involved?

SIMON: Well, the plastic explosive that they're talking about is not all that rare. There's plenty of it around. The bomb design remains to be determined. It might be a design common in Iraq. It might be a design that's been used elsewhere in Europe, especially Madrid. It takes some skill to put it together. But these guys, you know, were smart.

BROWN: Why do you say they were smart?

SIMON: Well, at least one of them appears to have been a university graduate. And you know, there are a number of, let's say, mid-level managers of terrorism in Europe who are capable of imparting knowledge that these guys might not -- might now have been able to get themselves from the Internet or some other source.

BROWN: Steve, it's good to talk to you, thanks. I think we answered some questions and raised some, too. I'm not exactly sure what to make of that. We'll continue the conversation, thank you.

In a moment the flood of criticism over Karl Rove: will it wash the president's top political adviser out of his job?

First at a quarter past the hour, on the money tonight, we go to Atlanta and Erica Hill.

Good evening, Ms. Hill.

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS: Mr. Brown, that's good stuff. You get a star for the day.

BROWN: Thank you.

HILL: All right.

Starting off in Washington, maybe hoping to influence President Bush on his upcoming Supreme Court nomination, Democratic senators sharing a list of names today they said would not meet with resistance. During a bipartisan meeting at the White House this morning, Democrats also suggested several judges, including three Hispanics, to replace retiring Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.

In northern Beirut, a car bomb kills at least two and wounds 12 others including Lebanon's outgoing deputy prime minister, Elias Murr, and his bodyguard. The powerful blast shattered windows hundreds of feet away. It also ripped a heavy iron gate from its hinges.

Three counts of first-degree murder for Joseph Edward Duncan, the convicted sex offender who police say kidnapped and sexually abused two young Idaho children. Duncan was charged on Tuesday in the killings of their 13-year-old brother, their mother, and her boyfriend. New details emerged from the court filings, among them that Duncan allegedly scouted out the residence for several days using night vision goggles.

And in the Gulf of Mexico, an oil platform that sits in 6,000 feet of water apparently damaged by Hurricane Dennis. The Thunder Horse platform was evacuated on Friday. Well, today a passing vessel noticed it listing, as you can see here. The damage could delay production. It was supposed to begin later this year.

And Aaron, that's the latest from Headline News at this hour.

BROWN: It was a very observant person, you could barely tell it was listing.

HILL: You couldn't tell at all, no.

BROWN: Yes. Thank you. We'll see you in half an hour.

Much more on the program tonight, starting with the space shuttle and problems, familiar ones.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN (voice-over): Just hours before liftoff, a falling part and broken tiles. Two years and billions of dollars later, is the shuttle still too risky to fly? And later, why is this man smiling?

HELEN THOMAS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS CORRESPONDENT: He put you on the spot.

DAVID GREGORY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Was it fair game?

TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: From here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the president see any need for that?

BROWN: The spokesman survived. Will Karl Rove?

Also tonight, the pure joy of getting high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Climbers, you may climb.

BROWN: On the rocks, or here on the ground...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my.

BROWN: ... this is NEWSNIGHT.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Any notion that the launch of the Space Shuttle Discovery tomorrow would be even slightly routine went out the window late this afternoon, fell off the window to be precise, striking tiles and triggering some dark memories from not so long ago.

In a moment, the question of whether any shuttle is now too risky, too expensive, or just the wrong mission.

First, CNN's Miles O'Brien at the cape with the problem today.

Miles, good evening.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.

You know, the countdown clock behind me says T minus 11 hours, although it's really about 17 1/2 hours to launch. There's a few holds built in there. But it was an eleventh hour shock as a cover on a window fell off, causing some damage to some tiles to Discovery on the launch pad.

Let's look at some animation and show you how this happened. It's a piece of plastic that's attached to that window upper left that looks outside. Down went the cover, struck the top of that portion there that is part of the so-called orbital maneuvering system, the OMS pod, damaged two of the tiles there.

NASA went out to take a look. If those tiles had been glued on directly to the aluminum skin of the shuttle Discovery, that would have been a big fix. In this case, it turns out they were on a panel that is bolted on there. They were able to get a new panel, bolt it in. It was a good fit, and off they go.

They say, technically speaking, they're good to go. The question now is what the weather's going to be like.

Now, of course, Discovery, now two and a half years later, after the loss of Columbia, has had all kinds of modifications to it. NASA has tried to modify the way it's doing business, as well. The question is, are all these fixes going to be enough to make Discovery safe?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Over the past two and a half year, NASA has spent more than $1.5 billion, looking for answers to what brought Columbia down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Booster ignition and liftoff.

O'BRIEN: The crew's fate was sealed about a minute after launch when a two-pound piece of insulating foam careened off the external fuel tank, piercing a lethal hole in the heat shield on the left wing. The orbiter disintegrated 16 days later in the blast furnace of reentry.

NASA has redesigned the fuel tank, changed the way it applies the foam, and removed it from some places to reduce the risk of a big piece breaking loose.

ANDREW THOMAS, DISCOVERY MISSION SPECIALIST: I don't think our vehicle is going to be plagued by problems of foam coming off. Now, there will be some small pieces of foam that come off. That always happens. We know from the flight history that happens. I don't think they're going to be serious, though.

O'BRIEN: They will launch during daylight hours, under the gaze of a more sophisticated network of tracking cameras to spot trouble. Heat shields on the rigs will be rigged with sensors to detect a debris strike.

And then once in space the crew will conduct a painstaking survey of the orbiter with cameras mounted at the end of a newly designed boom. And they will approach the space station belly first, giving the station crew a chance to shoot yet another ream of photos.

There is good reason for all this checking and rechecking of the orbiter's wing protection.

CHARLES CAMAROA, DISCOVERY MISSION SPECIALIST: We thought we could survive a quarter inch hole in some cases, an inch hole on the upper surface. Right now, we believe that we cannot survive, if we see, like, a thumbnail sized piece of coating lost from the outside surface in a critical region on the leading edge.

O'BRIEN: The astronauts will try some new ideas for patching holes in the heat shield in space. But right now NASA does not have a lot of confidence in the techniques. So as a last resort, if the orbiter is damaged, the crew will simply stay on the space station, a safe harbor, waiting for rescue.

But all this attention on avoiding what happened to Columbia's crew leaves a nagging concern: that other lurking problems might be overlooked.

STEVE ROBINSON, DISCOVERY MISSION SPECIALIST: It's the thing that we haven't thought of yet that will be the next thing that will surprise us. And but there are a whole bunch of people who are out there worrying about that. It's just not as visible to the rest of us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And liftoff of Discovery.

O'BRIEN: For the astronauts of Discovery and their families, this will be a long, hard mission. Before Columbia, shuttle crews and their families all breathed a sigh of relief once the rocket engine stopped and the orbiter was in space.

JIM KELLY, DISCOVERY PILOT: Well, this time they're going to be sitting on the ground for two weeks, you know, watching the clock tick and going, "Well, I'm still waiting for the event that killed the last crew."

So psychologically for the families, for NASA, for all the managers down there, for everybody, it's psychologically going to be a completely different thing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: It's worth pointing out, Aaron, that this really is the beginning of the last chapter of the space shuttle program. NASA says it's going to retire the fleet at 2010. If they're lucky, they'll get maybe 15 flights in, and then they're off to other horizons, perhaps -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just one quick question. This -- this piece that fell off late this afternoon, would that have been attached at launch tomorrow?

O'BRIEN: No. It's designed to come off before launch. It's just to protect the windows while it's on the pad.

BROWN: OK. So whatever that was wouldn't have been there anyway?

O'BRIEN: That's right. That's right. But it is, you know, it's a haunting parallel, let's face it. You know, when you talk about something striking the orbiter on the pad, you can't help but think of what happened two and a half years ago.

BROWN: You bet you. And that's what people are seeing. That's what happened late this afternoon.

Miles, thank you. Good luck on the coverage tomorrow. CNN's coverage anchored by Mr. O'Brien, 3 Eastern Time tomorrow afternoon and the shuttle launch just before 4 p.m. So it's probably a long time since we've watched a shuttle launch with the kind of anticipation that we'll watch tomorrow.

Alex Roland joins us tonight. He's professor of history and historian of NASA, Duke University, as I recall. It's good to see you.

Is it safe to fly, by the way?

ALEX ROLAND, DUKE UNIVERSITY: Well, I think so. I think this shuttle will be very safe. They've had more than two years and all the money they need to address the anomalies that build up with operation of these shuttles. I think this one will be very safe. The next two or three will be safe. It's after that that I begin to get worried.

BROWN: Because?

ROLAND: Two things. First of all, they're on their toes now. And inevitably with human nature, a certain amount of complacency settled in.

But more problematically, the shuttle builds up anomalies as it operates, little maintenance problems that accumulate. And they simply don't have the time or the resources to fix those. And what's happened in the past was they kept flying the shuttles with those anomalies, knowing that they were there but not being able to do anything about them. And it was those known anomalies in both cases, the Challenger and the Columbia, that brought on the tragedies.

BROWN: I'm sorry. Is it that they didn't -- they didn't know how to fix them? Or they didn't choose to take the time and spend the money to fix them?

ROLAND: They didn't have the time or the money. They were driven by the schedule and by budget constraints.

BROWN: OK. But they had as much time as they wanted. I mean, the schedule -- the schedule is absolutely arbitrary.

ROLAND: It's arbitrary, except they've set guidelines for the shuttle so that they can maintain what, I think, is the fiction that the shuttle -- shuttle is a successful launch vehicle.

It was supposed to -- when it was originally designed, it was supposed to fly every week.

BROWN: Yes.

ROLAND: It is so far from its design specifications that they felt enormous political pressure to keep it flying as often as possible.

BROWN: You know, this debate about the degree to which it's necessary for humans to be in space and all of that, if you -- if you just look at the last 10 years of NASA and looked at the things that have been successful and important and advanced our understanding of space and ourselves and all the rest, how many have come from manned flights?

ROLAND: Well, I think practically none. Since NASA started, ever since the Apollo program -- let's take that -- in the late 1960s, NASA spent about two-thirds of its budget on manned spaceflight and about a third on automated spacecraft.

And all the payoff has come from automated spacecraft. That's the space science, the exploration, the communications satellites, the weather satellites, the earth resources satellites, the geo-stationary satellites. All of these come from automated spacecraft.

We don't get much return from manned spaceflight, except that it's sort of a feel-good adventure.

BROWN: Yes, I was going to say, don't you give some points for men walking on the moon?

ROLAND: Sure. Sure. And I think the Apollo program, we got what we bargained for. That was a demonstration program that we could do something to show that we were better than the Soviet Union in the development of science and technology. And we proved it.

But since then, we've been repeating the same thing, that is, flying astronauts in orbit over and over again, and not really making in progress.

BROWN: Nice to see you, professor. Thanks for your time tonight.

ROLAND: OK, you're most welcome.

BROWN: Thank you. A reminder: 3 p.m. tomorrow afternoon, CNN's coverage, "Return of the Shuttle," from the cape, 3 p.m. Eastern Time, 12 p.m. out on the West Coast.

Just ahead on the program tonight, will loose lips sink Karl Rove's ship? If you think it's easy, you say it a few times. Or will the president keep him afloat?

And fearless teens climbing to dizzying heights while we remain safely grounded. We are safely grounded because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

* BROWN: Some late reporting tonight on the Valerie Plame affair or the Karl Rove affair or whatever sort of affair you want to call it. Sources telling CNN that Matthew Cooper, the reporter for "Time" magazine, is scheduled to go before a grand jury in Washington tomorrow.

He is one of the reporters Karl Rove talked to, maybe the only one, we're not sure. As to what the president had to say today, when asked about his leaking adviser, Mr. Rove, the president said nothing. His spokesman offered this though, he said that anyone working at the White House has the confidence of the president. It was all he said of substance. The rest will be seen by some as ducking the question and by others as beating a dead horse. Either way, there was plenty of it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUESTION: Are you, behind the scenes, directing a response to this story?

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What I know is that the president directed the White House to cooperate fully with the investigation and as part of cooperating fully with that investigation, that means supporting the efforts by the investigators to come to a successful conclusion. And that means not commenting on it from this podium.

QUESTION: At the very least though, Scott, could you say whether or not you stand by your statement of September 29th, 2003, that it's simply not true that Karl Rove disclosed the identity of a CIA operative?

MCCLELLAN: John...

QUESTION: Can you stand by that statement?

MCCLELLAN: John, I look forward to talking about this at some point, but it's not the appropriate time to talk about those questions while the investigation is continuing.

HELEN THOMAS, KING: People are on the record, one quote after another...

MCCLELLAN: The president wants to get to the bottom of it. We're just not going to get into commenting on an investigation that continues and I think you've heard me explain why I'm not going to do that. I do want to talk about this...

QUESTION: You don't' want to put yourself out on a limb, Scott?

MCCLELLAN: I do want to talk about this and we will talk about it once the investigation is complete.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That's why he gets the big bucks. That said, the spokesman getting heat does not a scandal make. So what does?

Here's CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Innocent until proven guilty is the rule a court of law, but in today's Washington, a deputy White House chief of staff at the center of a grand jury investigation, is more than fair game.

QUESTION: When did the president learn that Karl Rove had this...

MCCLELLAN: I've responded to the questions, Dick.

KING: Especially this deputy White House chief of staff, who has a hand in everything from Social Security to picking a new Supreme Court justice, and whose influence in the Bush White House, is rivalled only by the vice president.

DAVID GERGEN, JFK SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, HARVARD: This is a man who is totally melded with the president in terms of his political fortunes and I think the president is just emotionally attached to him and he sticks by his people.

KING: To Democrats, he is a nefarious boogeyman, the bad cop, they say, to a genteel president in a script critics say has played out time and time again.

One glaring example: A president who says no one should play politics with the 9/11 attacks. And a Rove political strategy in 2002, 2004, and again now, anchored on statements such as this...

KARL ROVE, ASSISTANT WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war. Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding to our attackers.

KING: The Rove controversy comes at a time the president is already struggling. A majority of Americans now say it was not worth going to war in Iraq. And more than six-in-ten Americans disapprove how Mr. Bush is handling Social Security, the issue at the top of his second-term agenda.

Rove allies call the attacks a Democratic smear campaign.

KEN MEHLMAN, RNC CHAIRMAN: I guess they think if they scream enough, if they insult enough people, if they're offensive enough, that people won't hear the fact that they have nothing to say about the American people's lives.

KING: Rove's influence, at times seems to take on mythical proportions. At last year's Republican convention for example, some Democrats saw in the design of this podium, a cross designed to send a message to Christian conservatives, a key Rove target group.

KARL ROVE: My God, where do they come up with this stuff?

KING: Complicating the politics of the moment for Rove, is this dynamic: A White House that once adamantly said that Rove had no role in the leak at issue, has clammed up now that it is clear he did talk to reporters, despite this carefully worded statement last year.

ROVE: ... I didn't know her name. I didn't leak her name.

GERGEN: The reason the story is so big is because the White House is mishandling it.

KING: Rove tells friends he is certain he broke no laws and is not a target of the investigation.

(on camera): And Karl Rove tells those friends this storm will pass when the investigation comes to a close, but some Republicans are more than a little nervous. And as one close associate put it after spending time with Rove this week, quote, "He knows he's going to be a pinata for a while here."

John King, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So, where does this leave Mr. Rove? In a moment, Jeff Greenfield on those who have come and gone before him.

And then later, President Clinton and hot air: There's a connection and it's good for the planet.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've heard this, but we're not sure if it's absolutely true, that there's a phrase book they give you when you arrive in Washington, a kind of Beltway Berlitz. Page 22, for example, when diplomats have a frank and productive exchange of ideas, it means they nearly came to blows. And when a spokesman says the president has complete confidence in so-and-so, that's page 46, as Scott McClellan said today about Karl Rove, usually it means the opposite.

So is Mr. Rove about to do a page 58, spending more quality time with his family? Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): We've heard the indignant calls for his head.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I believe very clearly, Karl Rove ought to be fired.

GREENFIELD: We've heard his defenders say it's all politics.

KEN MEHLMAN, RNC CHAIRMAN: What we're seeing that's unprecedented is the fact that people like John Kerry, someone who ran for president, Hillary Clinton, former first lady, Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democrat Party, would follow the angry left.

GREENFIELD: But in a political climate where so many players speak and act strictly according to which side they're on, is there any way to tell whether Karl Rove, the president's most powerful political adviser, is really in trouble?

(on camera): Well, while it's not infallible, history does offer some significant clues as to what factors can doom even the most powerful of political players. (voice-over): First, if you're facing potential criminal charges, as Nixon aides H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman were as Watergate exploded, you better start packing no matter how highly the boss thinks of you.

RICHARD NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I accepted the resignations of two of my closest associates in the White House, Bob Haldeman, John Ehrlichman.

GREENFIELD: Second, if you're the White House budget director and you're accused of financial regularities, as was Carter's budget director Burt Lance, it's probably time to go.

And taking valuable gifts from a businessman who might be looking for White House favors -- well, that put an end to the tenure of Sherman Adams, President Eisenhower's powerful chief of staff.

But important players can lose their post for other reasons. Ronald Reagan's chief of staff Don Regan lost his job because he seemed too arrogant. And he also incurred the wrath of first lady Nancy Reagan.

John Sununu, who was chief of staff for Bush I, alienated a lot of colleagues. So when he used a White House limo for a long-distance personal trip, that was it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James Watt ought to go.

GREENFIELD: Careless words are sometimes fatal. Reagan Interior Secretary James Watt's contemptuous dismissal of diversity.

JAMES WATT, INTERIOR SECRETARY: I have a black, I have a woman, two Jews and a cripple.

GREENFIELD: Or Clinton Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders endorsing the teaching about masturbation, a skill most young people have always managed to master on their own.

Now, if we assume Karl Rove is not indicted by the special prosecutor for leaking or for perjury, what's the key to his fate? In all likelihood, it's how people on his side of the political divide respond. Deborah Orin writes for "The New York Post."

DEBORAH ORIN, NEW YORK POST: We don't know all the reality. I mean, we only know what is out there in public, and there's a lot that is not there in public. So far, what you have is Democrats yelling for Karl Rove to leave. But it's only Democrats, which means it's a partisan fight. And partisan fights are survivable.

PETER BEINART, NEW REPUBLIC: I think yes in some ways...

GREENFIELD: Peter Beinart of "The New Republic."

BEINART: The question for Republicans is going to be, do they start to get worried enough about their unpopularity of Congress and of this president going into the 2006 elections? They want themselves to want some distance from the White House? And then I think they could start to do what you're suggesting, which is come in and kind of call foul on their own side.

GREENFIELD (on camera): So if the argument over Karl Rove's conduct breaks down on strictly partisan or ideological lines, he almost surely survives. But just as with unorganized sandlot baseball, if enough of his own men say so, he's probably out.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Just ahead on the program tonight, more on the next big storm. It's taking shape in the Caribbean, Emily. Also, the latest from Israel. Another terrorist bombing there.

We'll take a break first. Around the world, you're watching NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a moment or two, they're young, they're dangling high in the air. But first, at about a quarter to the hour, we check with Erica Hill, who is in Atlanta. Good evening again, Ms. Hill.

HILL: And to you, Mr. Brown.

We're actually starting off with a developing story out of Pakistan at this hour. Three passenger trains have crashed in Ghotki, Pakistan, about 370 miles northeast of Karachi, leaving dozens dead, hundreds injured. Here's what happened: A train sitting in a station was rear-ended by a second train, spilling cars onto another track. They were then struck by the third train.

Meantime, in Israel today, a Palestinian blew himself up in a mall in the coastal city of Netanya, killing three Israelis and himself, and wounding 90 others. The Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the blast. In response, Israeli troops have closed off the nearby West Bank and Gaza.

It may be only the sixth week of hurricane season, but we are already tracking number five, Tropical Storm Emily. Warnings have been issued in Barbados, Grenada, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, as well as St. Lucia. The storm has 50 mile-an-hour winds. It could reach the Gulf of Mexico by this weekend.

Saying that there are problems too big for government to handle alone, former President Clinton is now planning his own international summit. He hopes to attract as many as 1,000 leaders from both private and public sectors to the Clinton Global Initiative this September in New York City. The topic: Poverty, corruption, climate change, and religious and ethnic unity.

And Aaron, in order to keep my paycheck, I need to tell you the next time you get a presidential appetite for news...

BROWN: Thank you.

HILL: ... cnn.com. It's all free. Lots of video, as much as you want, for less than you'd pay for, well, anything.

BROWN: Almost anything. Thank you, we'll talk to you later. Thank you.

For most of us -- this is free, too. The Great Wall in China means one thing, but if you're a young rock climber on your way to the Youth World Championship Rock Climbing Competition in Beijing, the Great Wall is something altogether different. It's indoors, for starters.

A couple of weeks ago, more than 400 young American climbers competed for a chance to represent the country in China next month. CNN photojournalist Bob Crowley (ph) followed them as they inched their way toward the prize.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a dance up a wall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is huge.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It takes a lot just to get here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one! Climbers, you may climb. Climbers, you may climb.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of the finest climbers in the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is the National Climbing Competition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a big deal. Not a lot of people know about it, I think (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are youth climbers, 19 and younger. Here, you've got the best of the best competing against each other, to try and represent the country at the world championships, which are going to be held in Beijing this fall.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on, let's go!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been doing rock climbing for six years. I've been doing competitive rock climbing for five years. You end up using muscles climbing you didn't even know you had. You'll see all the climbers have huge forearms, comparatively. You're just totally zoned in, you block out everything. You're sort of like focused on your round, concentrating on the movement. A little body movement out, you can fall. And that's it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sort of gives you great hair, doesn't it, watching this stuff? It's fun but it's a little nerve-wracking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stick with it, you've got this! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You not only have to hold their fall, but worry about them swinging into the wall if they fall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the reason people don't do climbing is they're afraid of heights, they're going to fall. You're not going to fall to your death. And it's really fun.

A huge sigh of relief. Because you know, you're exerting all energy when you're on the wall, and then when you get off, you're just relieved that it's over. Especially to get to the top, you're happy. You know, you got to the top.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You made it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: How old do you feel?

How different papers handled the same story in "Morning Papers" after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey-doke. Time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. We can almost do the whole thing on "The Washington Times" today, but we won't.

We'll just come back to this theme here over the next 90 seconds. "Four bomb suspects born in Britain" is how "The Washington Times" headlines the London terrorist attack, "likely died in attacks."

This is my picture of the day, though. It's not the official picture of the day, because the official picture of the day comes in the next segment, but they were running the bulls -- or running from the bulls. But this guy got it absolutely wrong. He seemed to be running towards the bull, which is really dumb. It's like Prince Harry dumb.

The "Dallas Morning News." "Police link four to blasts. At least two suspects died in bombings. Arrests made in U.K." I'm not sure where the number two came from there.

Oh, "Hit the road, Jack. Wireless phone subscribers now outnumber land lines in Texas and the country." There are a lot -- I guess a lot of people don't have land lines anymore, as we used to call them in the old days.

"The Oregonian." "Britain suspects suicide bombs" is the way "The Oregonian out in Portland led the terror attack. "Evidence suggests four suicide bombers, including three of Pakistani descent, struck at London public transit."

Michael, how much time? Twenty-two seconds. "The Platteville Journal" out in Wisconsin. "Potosi brewery to benefit from $400,000 grant." That's my kind of use of government money. Send it to breweries. What the heck?

"Godspeed, Discovery," is the way "The Cincinnati Enquirer" leads for the shuttle tomorrow.

And I want to do one quick thing, Michael, don't push me here. "Ditka smoking mad about proposed city ban." They're going to ban smoking in bars and restaurants in Chicago, where the weather tomorrow will be -- "gross."

The official picture of the day when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's the official picture of the day as chosen by our team of judges. Oil platform in the Gulf.

But here's my official picture of the day, and you can decide. He was not seriously hurt, though my, it was close.

Shuttle launch tomorrow. We'll see you tomorrow night. Good night for all of us.

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