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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Man Linked to London Bombings Had Oregon Ties; Radical British Cleric Facing Heat; Brits Consider Tougher Anti-Terror Laws; London Bombers Used Simple Explosive; Woman Sues Police Department Over Mistaken Identity; Miranda Flub Leads to Retrial

Aired July 20, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Here's a man who has never committed anything wrong. Why not? Because he's America's ace news man. He's the host of NEWSNIGHT. He's our man on the scene. He's here in New York. He's Aaron Brown.
I get so excited over this, Aaron! Take it, please!

AARON BROWN, HOST: Thank you. I've never done anything wrong. Yikes.

Thank you, Larry. We'll see you in a bit.

Good evening again, everyone.

We begin with the possibility, not just of a terror sleeper cell in this country but perhaps a training camp, as well.

In London, investigators have been working their way from Ground Zero on out, since the bombings now almost two weeks ago. First, establishing spokes from the hub, seeing where they lead. Tonight, we'll look at the hub, at a man some are calling a fountainhead of extremism.

First, though, one of the spokes, which leads to a small town in the state of Oregon. We begin tonight with CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Haroon Rasheed Aswat allegedly scouted this Lime, Oregon, ranch for use as a jihad training camp. And even met with potential recruits.

Officials say he came to the United States in November of 1999 and was working with this man, James Ujaama, a U.S. citizen who reached a plea deal with the government and continues to corporate with investigators.

A 2002 indictment against Ujaama says Aswat, listed only as an unidentified co-conspirator, conducted firearms training in Oregon and acted as an emissary for the radical British cleric Abu Hamza al- Masri, currently in British custody.

In a statement, Aswat's family, currently living in Britain, said, "We have not had contact with him for many years." Investigators believe Aswat left Britain shortly before the London attacks and traveled to Pakistan, sources familiar with the investigation say. And the sources say British officials have asked Pakistan to help find him.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Now, London and a Muslim cleric, who, fair to say, is either walking a very fine line or has crossed it. He is, by his own admission, a radical. He spews hatred and disowns the country he lives in, as he has the right to do. The fine line here is between words that inflame and words that incite or recruit. Whatever the case, even the words are tough on our ears.

From London tonight, CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you prepared to apologize for what you said to the British people yesterday?

SHEIK OMAR BAKRI MOHAMMED, MUSLIM CLERIC: See, I don't speak with pornographic newspapers.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He is the man the British love to hate right now. Newspaper headlines demand he be thrown out of the country.

Muslim cleric Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed, who last year predicted al Qaeda would attack London, now says the British government is to blame for the attacks.

MOHAMMED: I believe the British government is to be blamed. The British public to be blamed. And the moderate Muslim to be blamed.

ROBERTSON: An internal government report, listed his group, Al Muhajiroun, which he says is now disbanded, as extremists. Its followers, vulnerable to becoming killers.

A young man who attended one of his meetings went on to become Britain's first suicide bomber in 2003, attacking a nightclub in Israel.

MOHAMMED: Many people attend my meetings. Now, if they attend somebody else's, as well, meetings. Myself, I never, ever recruit people to go out to fight. Nor do I believe it is allowed.

ROBERTSON: Proposed new legislation to stop radical clerics inciting hatred could lead to Bakri's deportation. He's lived here for more than 20 years, doesn't consider himself British, but does take government unemployment benefits.

MOHAMMED: See, I'm living here. And I'm entitled for whatever anybody's entitled. You think I'm not entitled, don't give me. ROBERTSON: He proudly proclaims himself an extremist but says he is part of a solution to stopping terror attacks, not part of the problem. That it is moderate Muslims and the government who are out of touch with the Muslim youth.

MOHAMMED: There are issues -- it is not the problem -- not from the extremists. I think they are part of the solutions. I believe so. We are part of the solutions. We are able to hold the youth, and we can hold them again, by the world of wisdom, which is based on the Quran.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For your safety...

ROBERTSON: He claims he had no part in the London bombings, did not know the four men involved. Indeed, condemns the attack.

MOHAMMED: I say to you, I condemn any form of bombing here or abroad, killing any innocent people.

ROBERTSON: The British government is holding summit meetings, enlisting moderate Muslims to marginalize clerics like Bakri. He remains unabashedly unashamed of his views.

MOHAMMED: My support if for Osama bin Laden. I share with him the same belief, and I pray to God to see that he himself will be guided and will be protected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: When I asked Bakri if he thought there was likely to be another attack, he said, "God forbid that that should happen. But if it does, it's because they're not listening to me" -- Aaron.

BROWN: God forbid.

On our way up, we were looking at a couple of reports on the Web tonight, one saying -- a British newspaper report saying that authorities believe they may have found the planner of the July 7 attacks in Pakistan. Lots of phone calls between this guy and at least two of the attackers. You know anything?

ROBERTSON: We still don't have that confirmed. There have been these reports that he's been arrested in Pakistan. We're still trying to confirm that, of course. Some reports in some of the British media saying he was spotted coming into the country shortly before the bombings, left the morning of the bombings. He is somebody, we understand, the police are very interested to contact.

BROWN: Is he somebody who is -- is he a known somebody in the way that the guy you just interviewed is a known somebody? Or is he an anonymous somebody?

ROBERTSON: It's a very interesting question. It does seem that he is known in intelligence circles. His name has been flagged up before. In fact, it was reported that when he came into the country -- again, this is not confirmed by the British police but widely speculated in the British media -- that when this person came into Britain, he was on a watch list. And that he wasn't watched when he came in.

This -- the radical cleric, Bakri, on the other hand, has been very much in the headlines on and off over the past few years. So he is very much a known person.

This other person, who was, perhaps, rumored to be the mastermind, is somebody who was just on the radar. Just on the radar. But he doesn't seem to have triggered it sufficiently enough when he came in to be watched closely enough, Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, a good job of fielding tonight. These were not easy questions. Thank you very much. Nic Robertson in London tonight.

And we'll see how these reports that are coming up in the British papers now play out, that a planner or the planner has been arrested in Pakistan. Unconfirmed at this hour.

Though the attack on July the 7th was hardly the first terror attack in Britain, it has changed dramatically the way country thinks about the problem. And will likely change the law, as well.

Here's CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a shock but no surprise. Britain has long and painful experience with terrorism, stretching back decades. July the 7th was only the latest.

For years, northern Irish Republicans waged a violent separatist campaign, with a focus of British intelligence. The activities of other groups, including Islamic radicals were given less attention, and informal deals, by which British agents kept their distance on the understanding Muslim communities would monitor their own ranks.

PROF. MICHAEL CLARKE, KINGS COLLEGE, LONDON: That was the arrangement. That worked pretty well until two weeks ago. Now, the general view is that here is a community that, for reasons out of its control, could not deliver on that.

CHANCE (on camera): In the aftermath of the London attacks, the need for greater security in this country has rarely been so urgently felt. But there are real concerns about striking the right balance. Restrictions that are too loose could fail to confront the terrorist threat. Those too tight, undermine the very values by which Britain defines itself.

(voice-over) And their values, some in Britain believe, are already under fire. These are protesters outside Belmarsh high security prison in southeast London, known to critics as Britain's Guantanamo. Civil rights campaigners fear real damage to British liberties could be inflicted if tougher anti-terrorism legislation is simply rushed through. GARETH CROSSMAN, LIBERTY: In Britain, we have certain traditions that often go back hundreds of years. We have a tradition of presuming innocence. We have a tradition of fair trial, of liberty, of free speech. These are very British things.

CHANCE: But in the wake of the London bombings, a major rethink of British anti-terrorism law is under way.

At the heart of the British proposals are new laws, designed, says the government, to bridge gaps in current legislation. Acts preparatory to terrorism, is the first new defense, making it easier for police to intervene in possible terror plots earlier and secure convictions.

Second, indirect incitement to terrorism would be made an offense. Preachers who justify suicide bombings, for instance, may fall under that category. Direct cause for terrorist acts, already illegal.

Thirdly, the giving and receiving of terrorist training, currently not covered in British law, would be made an offense.

Critics say they're waiting to see the draft laws in full, before deciding their merits and drawbacks. But as the physical reminders of London's carnage are cleared away, this, the wreckage of a subway train from the Edgware Road blast, few doubt tougher British anti- terrorism laws will soon be passed. All there and necessary (ph), if worrying legacy of this city's attacks.

Matthew Chance, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As much as this may be a story of recruitment and conspiracy in the law, it is also a story of chemistry, on the household ingredients that can turn hatred into sorrow.

In Oklahoma City, it was diesel fuel and fertilizer. In London, it looks like a different mixture, though just as simple.

Here's CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two years ago, in Washington state, police detonate a highly-explosive material, known as TATP, found in an apartment building. The explosive, allegedly made by a teenage boy, experimenting with chemistry.

Officials with knowledge of the British investigation have told CNN TATP was found in a house believed connected to the London attacks. TATP's formal name is triacetone triperoxide.

GEORGE GILLETT, ATF, LOS ANGELES: TATP is an extremely powerful explosive compound.

STARR: Although it is rarely seen in the U.S., law enforcement says it has been used in multiple terror attacks overseas.

In 2001, convicted shoe bomber, Richard Reid, had a tiny amount of TATP as an initiator for the bombs in his shoes. He was stopped as he tried to ignite the fuse on board an airliner.

In 1994, TATP was believed used in a car bombing outside the Israeli embassy in London and in a blast in the Philippine air bomber. In the 1980s, it was favored by Hamas suicide bombers in Israel.

Why do terrorists favor TATP? Because it's difficult to detect, powerful and the ingredients are easy to get.

KELLY MCCANN, KROLL INC.: Hardware store, a pharmacy, or a full- service grocery store. That's all you'd have to -- there's no reason at all you couldn't find the components necessary to make it in a variety of those three places.

STARR: But TATP has a problem. It is so volatile, it could explode if dropped or even brought into contact with metal.

(on camera) Intelligence sources say Hamas hired chemists who found ways to stabilize TATP, raising worries it could become the weapon of choice for al Qaeda attacks, not only in Europe, but in the United States.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In a moment, bounty hunters and the power you might not know they have.

First, at about a quarter past the hour, time for some of the other stories that made news today, which means it's time for Erica Hill, who's in Atlanta tonight.

Ms. Hill.

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS: Mr. Brown.

We're going to begin tonight in Georgia, not the state where I am, but the country. Police there have a man in custody in connection with a grenade thrown in a crowd where President Bush was speaking back in May. The grenade failed to go off. The man, though, was detained on Wednesday after being wounded in a shootout with police.

NASA is setting a new date tonight for the launch of Shuttle Discovery. It is Tuesday morning, even though they still haven't figured out exactly why a fuel sensor failed during the countdown last week.

In Canada today, the country becomes the fourth in the world to legalize same-sex marriage. The bill signed, giving -- today, giving same-sex couples the same rights as those in traditional marriages, something already legal in eight of Canada's ten provinces. Back stateside, a number of conservative lawmakers want Congress to halt the sales of RU-486, the so-called abortion pill. This after the FDA alerted the public to a deadly but very rare complication. More than 460,000 women have taken the drug in this country. Four have died of complications.

And Hurricane Emily, now a tropical storm, heading across northwest Mexico. The rain concern here: rain. Lots and lots of rain. Other places in the country, of course, need it. It's always where you don't want it.

BROWN: It seems that way, doesn't it?

HILL: It does.

BROWN: Thank you. Keep working. We'll see you in a half an hour. OK?

HILL: Sounds good.

BROWN: Much more ahead on the program tonight, starting with a knock on the door in the middle of the night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLAUDIA SANTANA, VICTIM OF MISTAKEN IDENTITY: He was with a flashlight, at my face. He said, "Are you Claudia Santana?" And I said yes.

BROWN (voice-over): She was taken away in handcuffs by a man who wasn't even a cop. And what he did was legal. Welcome to the world of the bounty hunter.

WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: Scotty, beam me up.

BROWN: He was part of a great adventure in science fiction, holding the Starship Enterprise together through thick and thin.

JAMES DOOHAN, ACTOR: The transporter power is down to minimal. We've got to bring in one at a time.

BROWN: A farewell tonight to a hero with a brogue.

DOOHAN: Here's to you, lads.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think you'll sell a Ferrari with a chubby lady.

BROWN: But could you sell, say, soap?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm well aware that I don't fit the stereotypical, you know, form of beauty.

BROWN: Flaws and all, she's the new face, the new body of reality advertising. Will customers bite?

LEONARD HOUDA, SON OF MURDER VICTIM: The acid just continued to eat him up. He looked like a melted candle when we buried him.

BROWN: He died a hideous death. And now, his killers could go free, all because two simple words the cops never said.

From New York, and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Columbus Circle, I pretty much guarantee old Columbus is glistening tonight on a very hot, wet night in the city. It's been hot in lots of parts of the country. Southwest been terrible.

Imagine being carted away from your home in the middle of the night in handcuffs. You've done nothing wrong, but no one -- and we do mean no one here -- believes you. If you think this happens only in places far away under military rule, think again.

A woman in Rutherford, New Jersey, is suing her local police department and filing a civil rights complaint because of what happened to her.

Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Their nightmare began with a knock at their front door.

JUAN CARLOS, CLAUDIA'S HUSBAND: Walked downstairs. And I see a flashing light. Thinking who could it be?

SANTANA: He was with a flashlight, at my face. And he said, "Are you Claudia Santana?" And I said yes.

CARROLL: Claudia Santana and her husband, Juan Carlos, say standing at the door, asking questions that night, was William Whitaker.

WILLIAM WHITAKER, BOUNTY HUNTER: We come into the house for a reason. It's not like we just picked your house out of the blue. It's not like we just picked you up out of the blue.

CARROLL: Whitaker is a bail enforcement agent, a bounty hunter. He showed up at Santana's home in Rutherford, New Jersey, armed with a gun and a mug shot of a woman who had skipped bail.

SANTANA: This picture, enlarged, in black and white.

CARLOS: Black and white.

SANTANA: So, it's grainy.

CARROLL (on camera): So they were thinking that that woman...

SANTANA: Is me.

CARLOS: Does not look anything like my wife.

SANTANA: I have a mark, a specific...

CARLOS: She has a mole. This person doesn't have.

SANTANA: I was born with it.

CARROLL (voice-over): Whitaker was persistent. There were too many similarities between Santana and the woman in the picture, who he identified as Claudia Rincon, an alleged embezzler who often went by the name Claudia Santana.

WHITAKER: I asked if her how many children. She said she had two. Our defendant had two children. You follow what I'm saying? On our paperwork, she matched the height, the weight.

CARROLL: Both women were also immigrants from Colombia.

Santana was terrified, and quickly called 911, thinking police would protect her.

SANTANA: I calmed down a little bit. I got the confidence of the police officers, which are heroes to me. And I -- it was like a relief, for me.

CARROLL: That relief would not last. Once police arrived, she says things got worse.

SANTANA: The police officer said, "Yes, that's her." When this guy said "that's her," I thought it was, like, a joke.

And I was asking my husband, "What is going on?"

And he was telling me, "They're going to take you."

"They're going to take me where?"

CARROLL: Whitaker handcuffed Santana and took her to be fingerprinted. No one could do it that late at the local police department. But while there, Whitaker and police got a better look at Rincon's mug shot.

WHITAKER: I said, "Well, the person I have outside, has a distinctive mole." We couldn't find the mole in the picture. I said, "OK."

CARROLL: At that point, Whitaker suspected he may have the wrong Santana and let her go.

SANTANA: He told me, "You know what? I'm going to be good to you. But if you keep crying, you're going to make me change my mind."

CARLOS: He didn't apologize. He didn't tell me, "No, we made a mistake." CARROLL: No one apologized to Santana. Not the Rutherford Police Department, which wouldn't talk to us because of an ongoing investigation into the incident, or Whitaker, who says he has no reason to be sorry.

WHITAKER: For doing my job? No. For being respectful to her? No. Because I was very respectful.

CARROLL: This Colombian immigrant sees it a different way.

SANTANA: I come from a country where they kidnap you every minute, where you're in constant fear. I know how fear feels like to be in fear.

CARROLL: The Santanas still proudly hang an American flag outside their home but now question just how free they really are.

Jason Carroll, CNN, Rutherford, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Sometimes the problem is not what police do, but what they fail to do. Confessions to murder are powerful evidence in court. But how they are obtained can also be their undoing. In this case, it all came down to two, simple, unspoken words.

Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Leonard Houda recalls the gruesome attack that killed his elderly father. A cooler of acid thrown in his father's face.

HOUDA: The acid continued to eat him up. He looked like a melted candle when we buried him.

CANDIOTTI: Now, two men convicted in the attack are getting a second trial, because of a botched Miranda warning.

When Leonard Houda Sr. was murdered in a parking lot, evidence included statements from Walter Dendy, sentenced to life for ordering the attack. And from Neal Bross. He told detectives he tossed the acid into Houda's face.

This is part of his confession.

NEIL BROSS, SENTENCED TO 15 YEARS FOR ACID ATTACK: The guy came out. He came around his car and I just said, "Hey," and I threw it at him and just turned around and walked away and jumped in the truck.

CANDIOTTI: Yet, an appeals court says those confessions cannot be used in court because of the flawed Miranda warning. Broward County's Miranda warning read, "You have the right to a lawyer present before questioning." An appeals court ruled two key words were missing: it should have read "before and during questioning." The court ruled the Broward wording was so flawed, that it has put at least eight other felony cases between 1999 and 2002 in trouble.

For example, prosecutors say this admitted killer is a free man, his Mirandized confession and other crucial evidence thrown out. That's why he won't be retried.

This teen, convicted of manslaughter for drowning a 5-year-old autistic boy, had his conviction overturned. The case is dropped.

Defense attorney Fred Haddad, who represents one of the two Houda murder defendants, says the law is the law.

FRED HADDAD, DENDY'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have a job to do, just like a prosecutor does and a judge does and the police do. The police saw fit to short fall their job.

JIM LELJADAL, BROWARD SHERIFF'S OFFICE SPOKESMAN: It wasn't a mistake.

CANDIOTTI: The Broward sheriff's office still defends its Miranda warning as, quote, "adequate." It had rejected a warning from state prosecutors that the wording needed change.

LELJADAL: In hindsight, we wished that we used it.

CANDIOTTI: Eight months ago, the sheriff changed the wording to this, "You have the right to talk to an attorney/lawyer before talking to me and to have an attorney/lawyer here with you during questioning now or in the future."

LELJADAL: The form that we're using today is absolutely perfect, as far as we know. But that doesn't mean that tomorrow some lawyer isn't going to go into court and suggest that we need to start using the word "after."

CANDIOTTI: A former federal prosecutor says Miranda must be fool-proof.

KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: When a confession is thrown out, especially if somebody blew it, then justice is really being denied. Because that is the most important kind of a proof that the jury ought to hear.

CANDIOTTI: When Leonard Houda found out he was going to have to endure another grueling murder trial, of men already convicted of killing his father, he was stunned.

HOUDA: I mean, it eats at you, you know, to take and think about this. You know, what had happened and if these people might possibly go free because of a Miranda reading.

CANDIOTTI: The retrial is under way this week.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Ft. Lauderdale.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on the program tonight, on Capitol Hill, the man of the hour gets the royal treatment.

And a video game that many parents already hated turns out to be even worse than we imagined.

From New York, home of good, clean fun, all the time, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: By any measure, the president's choice for a seat on the U.S. Supreme Court, had quite a day today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): His day began at the White House, coffee first. Then, a photo op in the Rose Garden. The president standing by his man, Judge John Roberts, literally and verbally.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We discussed how important it is that Judge Roberts get a fair hearing, a timely hearing and a hearing that will bring great credit to our nation and to the United States Senate.

BROWN: Then, a meeting with the Senate leader.

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: I want to formally welcome Judge Roberts to the United States Senate.

BROWN: Where Republicans were ecstatic, Democrats were reserved.

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: Looking forward to having some lawyer-to-lawyer talk in the other room.

JUDGE JOHN ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: I look forward to that.

BROWN: And former Senator Fred Thompson, now movie star Fred Thompson, was there to act as chaperon. As for the justice, he's in line to replace, Sandra Day O'Connor was fishing when the nominee was announced. Today, she took a moment to call Judge Roberts first-rate, even though she said she would have preferred a woman.

Justice O'Connor also called him confirmable. Insiders, by and large, this day at least, agree. Outside the beltway, in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 51 percent surveyed called the pick either excellent or good. Fifty four percent have a positive or somewhat positive first impression of the man, and it's easy to see why. He comes across as affable and photogenic. e has a sterling resume, cute kids, drives a cool car. This much we know. Soon we'll know a lot more about Judge Roberts, as he goes under the microscope. Or as Slate.com's Tim Noah put it this afternoon, let the body cavity search begin. We'll pass on that. And start with John Roberts, the person.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREED: John Glover Roberts Jr. Was born in Buffalo, New York, in 1955. And he lived there long enough to start elementary school. And to make his first communion at St. Bernadette Catholic Church. But it's this town, Long Beach, Indiana, an hour east of Chicago, that Roberts and his family would call home, upstate steel country. Roberts' father had taken a job as a plant manager at Bethlehem Steel. Barely a day after Roberts entered the judicial spotlight --

LAWRENCE SULLIVAN, ROBERT"S FORMER MATH TEACHER: It was very clear that he was an outstanding student.

FREED: They were staking out bragging rights at his old high school in Long Beach, Lalumere Catholic Academy, where the future Supreme Court nominee, graduated first in his class.

SULLIVAN: Then he went far beyond what was really required of students. He took extra classes. And really surpassed what a lot of other people would have done.

FREED: Back then, Roberts sat on the student council's executive committee, with Andy McKenna, now chairman of the Illinois Republican party. He remembers Roberts as captain of the football team, and a tough linebacker.

ANDY MCKENNA, ROBERTS' HIGH SCHOOL CLASSMATE: Very much a kind of blue collar player. Get it done. You know maybe not the most talented guy on the field, worked hard, though. Wasn't afraid of taking a hit. Wasn't afraid of giving a hit.

FREED: After high school came Harvard and two degrees. An A.D. in history, summa cum laude in 1976, and a J.D. from Harvard Law School, magna cum laude there in '79. Roberts also found time to be managing editor of the Harvard Law Review, where one classmate remembers him as honest, fair, kind, and punctual. Peter Rusthoven was at Harvard Law around that time. And later worked with Roberts as an associate White House council in the Reagan administration.

PETER RUSTHOVEN, FELLOW HARVARD ALUMNUS: This is a guy who is so smart, so good, so easy to work with. And I worked with him in a small office. There were, like, seven or eight lawyers, and we had one client named Ronald Reagan. You get to know somebody very well during the course of that.

FREED: Another Harvard graduate says Roberts had a midwestern reserve about him, never showing off his intelligence. Jonathan Freed, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As for the rest, his record his statements, will any of it stand in the way of the Senate voting to confirm Judge Roberts? There are 55 reasons why the answer is no. The president's party controls the Senate. Will anything else become an issue during the confirmation hearing, late next month or early September? Perhaps. The question is, what is an appropriate question to ask? Joining us tonight, CNN's Jeff Greenfield. Good evening to you.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Howdy. BROWN: Is the object for the judge here to say as little as possible?

GREENFIELD: Well, there's a phrase that people use, taking the judicial fifth, which is, if you can cast a question as somehow asking how you would vote, you get to say, I can't answer that question. And the answer is, yes. By and large, particularly of people on the other side, in this increasingly polarized system, are pushing for your views. They're looking for the wedge into suggesting you're not in the mainstream.

BROWN: You told me something a minute ago about Justice Scalia during his hearing that I find amazing.

GREENFIELD: Yes. Antonin Scalia was asked how he felt about Marbury versus Madison. Now that's the 1803 case that established the court's power to review acts of Congress. And he didn't answer the question. He just wouldn't. He just thought that's what he should do. And remember back then, he was not a target. The Democrats were after William Rehnquist's elevation. He got confirmed 98-0, and that's a key rule. If there's no tension, you can duck any question you want and it don't cost you.

BROWN: All right. Here's a question -- Roe versus Wade is a decided case. It's not a hypothetical. It has a known fact set. It has been voted on. Do you agree with that decision? Would you have voted the way the majority voted?

GREENFIELD: What a perspective nominee usually will do is to say, I can't answer that question because I don't -- I wasn't there, I didn't read the briefs, there are ways to duck it. Now, it is true that, for instance, Ruth Bader Ginsberg spoke very freely about her views on things like abortion, and for that matter sex discrimination, because she'd been involved in those cases. So, judicial nominees will find a way, if they're uncomfortable with ducking that question. Now Stuart Taylor, very prominent writer on law and very much of a, I think, a nonpartisan guy, has suggested, into that saying, well, look -- what did you tell the president about your opinion? Are we not entitled to know what the president knows about your views. My guess is that the president never asked him about that directly, because of that reason.

BROWN: Let me try to get two more in, we've got about a minute. Do you believe there is, though, those -- these words do not actually exist in the Constitution, a constitutional right of privacy?

GREENFIELD: I think that question will be posed. Even Clarence Thomas said yes to that question, although you can't find any evidence in any of his opinions that he actually voted that way. And that's the way -- and you say is there a Constitutional right to privacy? Well yes, it's settled law. Ok. How expensive is that right? Would you have upheld a Connecticut law banning birth control for married people, which is what got Bork into trouble, what about abortion? So the grillers will try with a very general question to push as closely as they can do get those views. And the major point is, the more that the judge has written in the past, the way Robert Bork did, the more he has to answer because he's got a record.

BROWN: Very quickly -- just I don't know if you've thought about this yet at all. But as you look across the judiciary committee, Republicans and Democrats, who do you think will be the most interesting players in that when those hearings play out?

GREENFIELD: Well there's are many predictable players. Arlen Specter, because he is on record as having said you will have to ask the judge their philosophy. And I would not vote for a guy who ducks those questions. Now he's the Republican chairman. He barely got that job because conservatives don't trust him. I'm not suggesting he's going to go after Roberts, but I do think that based on his past writings, he is going to make inquiries into at least Roberts' judicial philosophies. So I really think he's the most interesting guy.

BROWN: Thank you. Nice to see you.

Still to come tonight, in Indonesia, a second chance for a young woman trapped in a nightmare, perhaps of her own making. Perhaps not.

And if the dilithium crystals hold out, a final farewell to the man who kept the warp engines online, sometimes. I worry about people who write these things, to be honest. From this galaxy and beyond, this could only be NEWNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We report a passing tonight. Some actors never shape the characters they play. There fictional names follow them through life long and after the role has ended, and sometimes beyond.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice over): His name was James Montgomery Doohan. But to Star Trek fans he was and will always be, just Scotty.

WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: Scotty, beam me up.

BROWN: Montgomery Scott was the chief engineer on the USS Enterprise. He reported to Captain Kirk, worked with Spock, navigated the final frontier. When things got dangerous, which they often did, it was up to Scotty, and Scotty was up to the task.

JAMES DOOHAN, ACTOR: The transporter power is down to minimal. I've got to bring in one at a time.

BROWN: NBC canceled the show in 1969, after only three seasons, which, in the strange world of television, was only the beginning. Star Trek returned in syndication. And there were Star Trek movies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That for nothing.

BROWN: It turns out that Scotty wasn't a Scot at all, he was Canadian. And while he wasn't a real space traveler, he was a real soldier. A member of the Royal Canadian Artillery, he landed on Juneau Beach on D-Day. And while as best we know, he was a bachelor in space, he was quite prolific on earth. The father of nine. The last born when he was 80. Back when it all began, no one could imagine Star Trek would become the cult hit it's been. Doohan surely couldn't have known that Scotty would turn into the role of a lifetime. In space, diseases could be cured and avoided. That's the joy of science fiction. Fact is, less pleasant. And Doohan, who had Alzheimer's, died in his Seattle home. He was 85.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In a moment, can real people, flaws and all, sell the soap?

First, coming up toward the top of the hour. Time for some of the other headlines of the day. Erica Hill joins us again from Atlanta -- Erica?

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello again, Aaron. We begin with a second chance for an Australian beauty therapist sentenced to 20 years in jail. Today a court in Bali, Indonesia, gave permission for Chapelle Corby's lawyers to call more witnesses. Her attorneys believe the extra witnesses could free Corby. You may recall she was sentenced in April for drug smuggling.

The best selling video game, Grand Theft Auto now has a new rating, Adults Only. Why, you ask? Well, that's because it was recently found to contain explicit sexual content that can be unlocked with an internet download. And today the producer admitted the sex scenes had been built into the retail version of the game, not just the PC version. The company previously suggested the scenes had been added later by others.

And finally a face you might remember. Then and now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): He was only 31- years-old when he seized power, in what he called a people's coup, in Ghana in 1979. Air Force flight Lieutenant, Jerry John Rawlings, the man known to many simply as J.J., later installed himself as president, and would go on to rule Ghana for the next dictate as a strong-armed dictator.

JERRY JOHN RAWLINGS: You can buy someone's loyalty.

OKWU: Early in his second decade of power, Rawlings changed course, looking to the west for aid, and introducing a series of economic reforms. He was elected and then re-elected as president, before he gave up power voluntarily in 2001. The flamboyant Rawlings, a qualified helicopter pilot, still takes pleasure in flying himself around. And continues to play an active role behind the scenes, rallying Ghana's fledgling opposition.

RAWLINGS: I don't have any regrets, because by our intervention and the sacrifice that we made, as painful as it was, I know that's what saved the nation. OKWU: He's also busy writing his memoirs and says he'll soon be publishing his account of his sometimes turbulent rule:

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: And that is going to do it from this end, Aaron, at exactly quarter till the hour. I'll hand it back to you.

BROWN: Thank you. Either start or end it around then.

HILL: It works out.

BROWN: One way or another. Thank you. We'll talk tomorrow.

Ahead on the program -- I love these stories. Is the country ready for advertising that features women who look like actual, real women you might know? From New York, the city where fashion is everything, my goodness, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It is my belief that advertisements essentially show just two kinds of people. Really dorky people, almost always men, by the way, and really beautiful people. The dorky people are there to remind you what you'll be if you don't buy that car, that watch, that insurance. The beautiful people are there to remind you how much there still is to strive for. Maybe if I just drink that beer, I can get that woman. Missing from the equation are real people. Or at least they were. Here's CNN's Valerie Morris.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VALERIE MORRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The models you are used to seeing wear anything from a size 2 to a size 0. Stacy Nadeau is a size 10.

STACY NADEAU, DOVE MODEL: I am well aware that I don't fit the stereotypical, you know, form of beauty.

MORRIS: But Dove is using her in a new ad campaign for its firming lotion line. One that features very unusual models. Women with fuller figures, tell-all scars, kinky hair and super pale skin. In other words, models who look like real people.

SILVIA LAGNADO, SENIOR VP. DOVE: It really debunks what the beauty industry has been doing for a long time.

MORRIS: Dove is targeting the average American women. The campaign was launched first in Great Britain and sales skyrocketed over 700 percent. But will it work in the United States?

MORRIS (on camera): According to federal government statistics the average U.S. woman is 5'4, 155 pounds -- that's technically overweight. For this reason, Dove is betting on this ad campaign, winning over consumers who are looking for more realistic and more attainable images of beauty. DR. DOROTHY CANTOR, PSYCHOLOGIST: They all smile and they say, those are real women. And they're identifying with the women in the ad, in a way that they can't with the gorgeous super models.

MORRIS (voice over): But skeptics argue, featuring these average-looking models won't play in our weight-obsessed culture. Women want to see what they might be, and not what they are.

JAMIE ROSS, TREND EXPERT: Beauty is all about fantasy. It really is. It's about a fantasy. It's about what women hope to look like.

MORRIS: Will these's ads prove so effective that we'll see average people on billboards hocking expensive products? Not likely.

LINDA WELLS, ALLURE: The high-end is selling something else. They're selling a dream. They're selling a luxury. And people don't necessarily want to see their reality reflected there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think you'll sell a Ferrari with a chubby lady yet.

MORRIS: Whatever the result, one thing is clear -- people are talking -- talking a lot about the ordinary women in their underwear.

WELLS: This ad campaign gives Dove a Lot of attention. That's a really good thing when you're in a competitive business. But the key thing is -- is it going to sell products? We don't know that yet. If it sells products, terrific. If it doesn't, then there will be a new campaign in a few years.

MORRIS: We all know the politically correct response to this campaign would be support and praise. That's a nice sentiment, but sometimes the most telling response, is also the most anonymous.

Valerie Morris, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The streaker. "Morning Papers" after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey doke. Time to check "Morning Papers" from around the country and around the world. Start with the -- I'm just in a good mood today, OK? Start with the "Brownsville Herald." I think it's their first appearance on the program, and therefore they get the lead spot. "Close Call: Valley Braves Hurricane Emily With Only Minor Damage." That's their lead. It ought to be, it pretty much owns the front page. "A large pecan tree leans over a house in the 1400 block of East Van Buren Street." If you're in the Brownsville area, you might drive by and see that.

"The Times" in London, "Phone records link al Qaeda's British chief to bomb team." This is the story we talked about at the top of the program. This is getting wide coverage now in the British media. Now down here, Edward, if you can. This is a picture of the most famous soccer -- not soccer, cricket match between Britain and Australia. And the guy who disrupted it 30 years ago. And you figure -- you're going to sell newspapers, you put this picture on the front page. So they did. That was 30 years ago.

I like this story. "Christian Science Monitor" post-tsunami Aceh. It takes a woman to rebuild a village. "All the women in my family died. I have to do all the cooking." A story of a woman putting her life back together. A lot of people have forgotten the tsunami, but everybody, and not the "Christian Science Monitor." And good for it.

Forget that.

I can do that.

"Chattanooga Times Free Press" "White House pitches court choice." Pretty much Supreme Court second day story on the front page of every paper.

"The Washington Times" "Senate GOP Rallies For Roberts." Well, yeah, you'd think they would.

Down here. This just to me is an amusing headline. "Saudi Envoy Pick A Foe To al Qaeda." Now, what is Saudi Arabia going to do, send an ambassador to the United States who supports al Qaeda? I don't think so.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago -- according to the "Chicago Sun Times" by the way -- what the heck was that? Is belligerent.

There is yet another controversy in the picture of the day. You'll get to decide it. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK. Here's your picture of the day, as chosen by the photo editors of NEWSNIGHT. Tattooed fruit. OK, this is what -- their businesses photos, this is what they chose. Managing editor and anchor, however, chose this one -- female sumo wrestlers, because it reminded me of what we did the Eugene Gurdismeyer (ph) in the seventh grade at North Junior High.

You can decide. We'll see you 10:00 tomorrow. Good night.

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