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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Piecing Together Terror Puzzle; Interview With Senator Rick Santorum

Aired July 25, 2005 - 22:00   ET


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone.
In London and Egypt and lots of places beyond and in between, it was a day of arrests and manhunts and questions about terror and those behind the wave of terror attacks of late.

So we begin in London, four days after terrorists attempted to bomb three subways and a bus. Tonight, five suspects in custody, more clues emerging.

Here's CNN's Nic Robertson.


NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): In the hunt for Britain's four most wanted men, new pictures and some names.

PETER CLARKE, METROPOLITAN POLICE: We now believe the man on the bus who attempted to set off that bomb to be Muktar Said Ibrahim, also known as Muktar Mohammed Said.

ROBERTSON: Police say Muktar and another bomber, now identified as this 24-year-old Yasin Hassan Omar, and a third man set off on their bombing mission together from a subway station in South London. The fourth bomber appears to have begun his mission alone in North London, before his bombed failed to detonate.

CLARKE: He then got off the train, probably by climbing through a window at the end of the carriage, and then made his way along the track for about 200 or 300 yards.

ROBERTSON: The failed bombings last week and a discarded bomb discovered in a North London park Saturday near where one of the suspects was seen running away are also providing police an important new lead.

CLARKE: All five of these bombs have been put inside dark- colored rucksacks, or sports bag. All of them were made using the same type of plastic food storage container.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Made in India, sold at 100 outlets in this country, this 6.25-liter tub is exactly the same as one used in all five bombs last week and could provide a vital link in catching the bomb-maker. And if -- and it is a big if at this stage -- if the same bombs were used in the two separate attacks in London, this could provide a vital link between the two terror cells.

(voice-over): A possible link the police are pursuing began with this photograph of a whitewater rafting trip in June. It shows two of the bombers who died in the July 7th attacks. Police say the river- rafting company is Wales is helping their investigation into both bombings, but won't specify the link.

Al Qaeda expert Rohan Gunaratna suspects a connection between the two terror cells.

ROHAN GUNARATNA, AUTHOR, "INSIDE AL QAEDA": They belong to the same network. It is because the operatives used the same modus operandi, the same tactics.

ROBERTSON: But the now dead July 7th bombers and the four bombers on the run are only the tip of the iceberg, Gunaratna warns, not just possibly more cells, but their complex support networks, too.

GUNARATNA: You need people to study the transportation system. And you also people to maintain the safe houses, the communication, to procure the equipment and the chemicals, and also to prepare the devices.

ROBERTSON: Raids are continuing in London, five people arrested so far, the latest coming Monday. But none of the people in custody, it seems, is a suspected bomber.

(on camera): It is not just the prospect that one terror cell is on the run that's driving this investigation into top gear. It's the reality that there could be more cells out there.

Nic Robertson, CNN, London.


BROWN: A similar manhunt is underway in Egypt where police are investigating a triple bombing that killed at least 84 people early Saturday morning at the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik. Today, the U.S. embassy in Cairo confirmed an American woman was among those who was killed. She was celebrating her 27th birthday. And as in the July 7th London attacks and perhaps, we don't know, in last week's attacks too in London, Pakistan has emerged as a possible center.

So here's CNN's Chris Burns.


CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was an attack that authorities say involved more than homegrown extremists. Egyptian officials are circulating pictures of terrorist suspects. They confirm they're still looking for several Pakistanis they had been seeking even before the Saturday attacks. And Egyptian security forces clamped heavier security around the resort town of Sharm el- Sheik, launching raids and rounding up suspects, some reports say upward of 100. One raid sparked a shootout with suspects in a Bedouin village near the Red Sea resort. Police have not said if there were casualties or arrests. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf disputed speculation of a Pakistani link to the Egypt and London attacks.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT (through translator): Is it possible one who is al Qaeda or anyone else can direct attacks in London, Sharm el-Sheik, Istanbul or Africa from here? This is totally wrong.

BURNS: Egypt's interior ministry says there could be a link to the bombings at the Taba Beach resort near the Israeli border last October that killed more than three dozen people.

The timing of the latest blast was significant, occurring on Egypt's national holiday, marking a 1952 military coup. Since then, Egypt has been ruled by thinly-veiled military regimes. President Hosni Mubarak, a former air force commander in power for 24 years, is a key U.S. ally and often a mediator in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, making him a target. And the attacks appeared aimed at destabilizing the 77-year-old Mubarak ahead of presidential elections his party is expected to control.

The attacks also hit a major cash cow.

(on camera): The attackers struck at the very heart of Egypt's tourist industry, a business that's worth $6 billion and drew 8 million tourists last year. With the Sharm el-Sheik attacks, those figures are not expected this time around.

(voice-over): The bombings come at a time the Mubarak government faces criticism over election reforms, high unemployment, and unrest from is Islamic groups. An international extremist connection could point to more trouble ahead.

Chris Burns, CNN, Sharm el-Sheik, Egypt.


BROWN: This wave of attacks has come during what intelligence officials say has been a period of relative quiet. The chatter, as it has become known, has been down. What exactly that means about the people doing the killing and the intelligence services trying to stop it is less than clear tonight.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.


KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After the attacks in London and Egypt, U.S. officials went back and combed through recent intelligence for anything they might have missed.

They say they didn't find anything.

REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, it certainly means one thing, which is the terrorists are getting smarter. They know how to evade us. It's much harder for to us listen to what they're saying because they don't necessarily use devices we can pick up.

ARENA: Intelligence officials say terrorists, like those in London, are operating in smaller groups, communicating face-to-face, resulting in less of what experts call chatter. Their association with al Qaeda may be limited to training or financing. Experts say it's basically up to those local teams to decide what, when, and how to attack.

It's not known whether similar groups exist in the United States, but it's a possibility.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: We remain concerned about the potential for al Qaeda to leverage extremist groups with peripheral or historical connections to al Qaeda, and particularly its ability to exploit radical American converts and other indigenous extremists.

ARENA: Sources say the FBI has identified more than 1,000 people in the U.S. who may be al Qaeda sympathizers. And the bureau has had as many as 300 so-called Islamic extremists under surveillance. Counterterrorism officials say it's helpful to identify possible recruits, but they point out the first London bombers never showed up on the intelligence radar. They had no criminal records. Even their mothers apparently didn't know what they were up to.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Just one of the factors we see today is that the secrets terrorists have that we want are increasingly held by a smaller and smaller number of people. And so it is becoming harder and harder to penetrate and disrupt.

ARENA: But not impossible.

HARMAN: The key will be when in NYPD cop on the beat sees something different, notices that there's a place with funny smells coming out of it or lots of truck traffic or lights on 24/7 or something like that that wasn't like it a month ago, and tells that to the local leadership and that information is taken seriously.

ARENA: Everyone agrees developing better human intelligence is the key to penetrating the groups, but that can take years. And even the most optimistic experts say the chance of infiltrating every single one is slim.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.


BROWN: Those are the pieces tonight. We're joined by CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen for a wider view.

Peter, good to see you. I want to move quickly through a couple of things that have come up and then we'll take some more time on some others. In Nic's piece, talked about these cells need someone to finance them, someone to provide safehouses. So as you look at two attacks in London, do you think we're talking about a couple of dozen people involved, or 100 people involved?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I think the couple of dozen figure is a pretty good number. If you think back to the Madrid attacks of 2004, Aaron, 23 people were implicated in those set of attacks. There were 10 bombs. So in London we have eight bombs. I mean, I think we're looking at two dozen people, more or less.

BROWN: Somewhere in my reading about Madrid, it seemed to me 110 or 100-plus people were arrested at one point or another.

BERGEN: Right. I think that was sort of a roundup of the usual suspects. When it came to actually having a trial, my memory serves right, I think it was about 23 people. So, you know, Madrid is different from London, but we're looking -- I don't think we're looking at 100 people. I think we're looking at a score or more people.

BROWN: OK. Musharraf today, I understand for the president of the country you need to say things like that, but is there any practical reason why someone in Pakistan couldn't be directing this -- these sorts of attacks to happen?

BERGEN: I don't so. I mean, I think it's plausible. I mean, obviously, President Musharraf wants to defend his country. He mentioned Istanbul as one of the places it was improbable that somehow anybody in Pakistan would be directing that. Well, if you remember, the Istanbul attacks that attacked a British bank and consulate in 2003, that the actual attackers met with Osama bin Laden to talk about the attack in Afghanistan. So it's not at all impractical.

BROWN: Which leads to the question, I think, of whether or not anyone is, in fact, directing anything. We talked about this in Kelli's piece a little bit. Is there -- is Osama picking up the phone or whatever communications device they happen to have available and saying, why don't you blow up a subway in London?

BERGEN: Obviously, he's not talking on a satellite phone but he's communicating with the most effective communication tool known to man, which is television networks like Al Jazeera, CNN, et cetera. We've had 18 statements from bin Laden since 9/11 calling for very specific things like attacks on members of the coalition in Iraq. And we've had attacks in Madrid and then London in my view as a result of those calls.

Ayman al-Zawahiri, his number two, has called for attacks on President Musharraf. Shortly after that there were two assassination attempts against Musharraf. So people are listening and these people -- al Qaeda, you know, is both an organization and a movement. And the ideological movement keeps getting refreshed by the fact that Osama bin Laden keeps coming on saying things.

And just to complete the thought, I think it's quite possible that we will hear from either Ayman al-Zawahiri or Osama bin Laden specifically about the London and Egypt attacks within the next week or two weeks, judging by past performance. BROWN: I guess it's one thing to subscribe to an ideology: I'm a follower of Osama bin Laden. It's another thing to be directed by Osama bin Laden. I hear you saying it's more the former than the latter?

BERGEN: Well, just as physicists describe light as both a wave and a particle, you can have simultaneously things that seem to be in contradiction with each other. Osama is, I think in some ways, giving ideological advice, but I think he may also be out there communicating in some ways, obviously by courier rather than by any electronic means or phone and getting messages out.

We had a kind of so-called terrorist summit in Waziristan in northern Pakistan last year. So it's -- these guys obviously don't take vacations. I don't think they're out of business. The last videotape we saw of bin Laden, he looked so tanned and rested. Same with Ayman al-Zawahiri. They want to remain in the game. They keep in the game via these videotapes and audiotapes and I think to a certain degree by actually ordering specific things.

BROWN: Given all the attention that these guys have on them these days, I don't mean just Zawahiri and Osama, but all of them, how can they all get together in some little remote area of Pakistan, I assume dozens of people, and have a meeting?

BERGEN: Well, it's a good question. You know, the problem is trying to find one person or just a small group of people is very difficult in that area. If you remember, the Israelis spent 15 years trying to find Eichmann in Latin America. If one person or a small group of people are trying to avoid you, they can do it rather successfully if they prize discipline and secrecy, as the leaders of al Qaeda do, aren't making obvious mistakes, they can continue evading capture for a long period of time.

BROWN: Peter, good to see you. Thank you. We'll talk to you again in the days ahead I expect.

BERGEN: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Peter Bergen with us tonight.

Just ahead, final moments for a man who simply wanted to go to work. Yet that too part of the London story.

But first, at about a quarter past the hour, time for some of the other news of the day, Erica Hill with us from Atlanta again tonight.

Ms. Hill.

ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Good evening Mr. Brown. This next story something you know all too much about I'm sure. In large parts of the country it is really just too hot to take. Yesterday in Chicago reaching 104 degrees, three people died from heat-related cause there's. Today, cooling centers provided some relief. Meantime, Illinois's governor has asked the federal government to release $1.7 million in emergency funds for more heat relief.

In Nebraska, federal judge declaring Union Pacific Railroad has been discriminating against women by not covering contraceptives in its health care plan. But a Union Pacific spokesman says the company will appeal the class action ruling, because the decision to exclude birth control from the benefits package was negotiated with the company's unions.

Meantime in a separate case filed today, 10 women from 10 states are claiming the so-called both are birth control patch caused strokes and blood clots. They are seeking punitive damages from the manufacturer, Ortho-McNeil.

An Indiana National Guardsmen pleading guilty today in the shooting death of an Iraqi policeman in November 2003. Corporal Dustin Berg will serve 18 months in prison for negligent homicide and receive a bad conduct discharge.

And after months in limbo, John Bolton may soon be heading to the United Nations, Senate approval or not. The White House is reportedly close to making a recess appointment, bypassing the Senate while it is out of session. Mr. Bolton could then serve as ambassador, but only until January of 2007 -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK. Well...

HILL: And then after that, back to the drawing board.

BROWN: See, you have got to have a gig for a while, then it gives you a couple of years to find something else.

HILL: There you go.

BROWN: Thank you. We'll still be here then, I hope.

Back to terrorism in a moment, starting with the terror of being the wrong man and the horror of shooting the wrong man.

They had orders to shoot to kill and they did, an innocent man.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to go back to square one and make sure that we have established exactly what happened.


BROWN: Are police in Great Britain on a hair trigger? We'll ask the man who is heading the investigation.

Later, remember that critical part that stopped the shuttle from flying?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to have to scrub this launch attempt.


BROWN: That was then.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think NASA is as ready to fly as they can be.


BROWN: Or does it have a case of launch fever?

Also tonight, a week in the life.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I work six days a week. I work 65 hours-plus a week with no overtime. I have to do it because, you know, they need to eat.


BROWN: What does the split in a once mighty union mean? To organized labor, to working Americans.


BROWN: The cops have them. Now the company wants to put more Tasers in the hands of civilians.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no form of registration. There's no form of training, mandatory training. There is no requirement on the part of the seller to do a background check.


BROWN: Feel safer now? From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.


BROWN: A quiet night in the city. A humid, warm night. You look out on Central Park South, Central Park to the left of your screen, and Columbus Circle right below, which is where we are tonight and every night.

As police in London continue their manhunt for those responsible for last week's attempted terror attacks, more details emerging tonight about the terrible mistake made on Friday. A young man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time was killed. The final minutes of his life filled with terror.

Here's CNN's Soledad O'Brien. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's being called the 53rd victim of the London terror. Another commuter in the wrong place at the wrong time. But Jean Charles de Menezes was killed by police last Friday, more than two weeks after the deadly terrorist bombings.

(on camera): To piece together the last minutes of this young man's life you have to begin here at the apartment he shared with his two cousins on Scotia (ph) Road . It's blocked off with police tape now. He walked out at 10:00 on Friday. He was unaware the building was under surveillance. He was wearing a heavy jacket. It was zipped up on a warm day. Police thought that stuck out and so they followed him.

(voice-over): The building had been under surveillance. One of the apartments inside, a possible terrorist hideout. But Menezes wasn't a terrorist, he was an electrician, a 27-year-old Brazilian immigrant on his way to work.

He walked a few blocks to a bus station in Tolls (ph) Hill, plainclothes police followed, keeping out of sight. He got on a bus, heading to the Stockwell subway station. Police still watching his every move. At Stockwell station, chaos. Exactly what happened is up for dispute.

Police say they yelled at Menezes to stop, but instead he ran onto a train. Everyone agrees the officers tackled him and shot him eight times at close range as he crouched on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looked horrified, though, absolutely. I caught sight of his face for a split second. He looked absolutely horrified. And then he was on the floor and dead.

O'BRIEN: And it was all a horrible mistake.

Soledad O'Brien, CNN, London.


BROWN: A horrible mistake now under investigation. Nick Hardwick is the chairman of the commission investigating the shooting and we spoke with him earlier today.


BROWN: Sir, do you believe at this point you know the sequence of events that led to the shooting and that what you need to figure out is sort of how something happened?

NICK HARDWICK, INDEPENDENT POLICE COMPLAINTS COMMISSION: No, I don't know that yet. I'm not taking anything for granted. We're going to go back to square one and make sure that we've established what has happened. We're not taking anybody else's version of events. When we've done that, then we can ask why. BROWN: Have the officers involved been cooperative to this point?

HARDWICK: We haven't spoken to the officers yet and we wouldn't expect to speak to them for some time, until we know what other questions we want to put to them. And we're going to be looking at the chain of command, not just the guys on the front line. We're going to be looking at the briefings, the orders, the policies they were operating under.

BROWN: Where do you start? What's the first step, then?

HARDWICK: The first step is we have some of our experienced investigators now working on just from the scope of this, how big is it, what do we know at this point, what do we still need to find out, how many of our people will be involved? And then I think we will be able to fairly quickly find out what happened and verify that. Then there will be a question of looking at the overall context in which it took place, the security context and trying to make some judgments about what went wrong.

BROWN: Who do you work for?

HARDWICK: I'm accountable to the British parliament and the courts, ultimately. I don't work for the police. By law, I'm not allowed to have a police connection, and I can't be -- have my decision second-guessed by politicians, by the police, by pressure groups. It's down to me. People think I've got it wrong, they can go to court.

BROWN: It's a kind of -- you live in a -- if I may, a never- neverland between the political pressures on one side and the police on the other side and you have to operate in the middle. Is that fair?

HARDWICK: We're in the middle, but we're clear what we're doing. This is about a search for the truth. We don't start with an assumption that someone's at fault here. We start from the assumption that the family needs to know what happened and we're going to do our utmost to give them the answers. If there's been wrongdoing, then we'll hold people to account. And if there's lessons to be learned, we'll make sure they're learned.

BROWN: Between the terrorists and police, do you think that when both -- just going back to what you said earlier about riding the subway, that people in London right now have an anxiety on both ends of it, that they're a little unsure about their own police force and they're a little unsure about the guy sitting next to them on the subway?

HARDWICK: Well, I think that people do want to know, I'm sure -- of course, people are unsettled by it. I'm not trying to pretend that's not the case. People want to know what happened with the shooting. They want to know what went wrong, and they want to be reassured that it can't happen again. But they also -- they want to make sure that, as I say, the priority is catching the bombers and preventing further outrages.

And those two things are part of the same. You know, if -- to catch the bombers and stop them, the police need the support of public. The public will give that support if they feel that when things go wrong, there's an honest account of and the lessons are learned.

BROWN: I promise I won't hold you to this, but do you think you're talking days, weeks, or months before your work is done?

HARDWICK: OK. As long as you don't hold us to it. I mean, we aren't sure yet, but look, generally, what we're saying is we think this is months, not days, not years. But if we find out stuff that needs to be dealt with straightaway, you know, if I find that out tomorrow, then I'll make sure the right people know tomorrow.

But we won't. It will be months, I think, it will be -- you know, before we conclude. But let's -- we don't really know what's out there yet and so I can't say that for sure until I know that.

BROWN: We appreciate that. I think viewers do too. We need to ask the questions and we appreciate your willingness to at least try and answer what you can. Thank you, sir.

HARDWICK: Yes. OK. (INAUDIBLE). Thank you for your time.


BROWN: It's an interesting look at the process the British are going through now, a process not unfamiliar to American cities as well.

Still to come on the program tonight: What a major split in the American labor movement means for anyone who works union or not. It's a huge story tonight.

Also, selling Tasers to the guy next door or the guy in a dark alley. Yikes!



BROWN: Used to be pretty simple, when asked at the turn of the last century what workers wanted, the founder of the American Federation of Labor said very simply, we want more. And for years more is what workers got. It's not so simple now. The recent history of unions in this country is one of decline.

Today two of the largest unions in American, the Teamsters and the Service Employees International Union voted to leave the modern day version of the old AF of L. The reason, in part, a split over how to turn less back into more. Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is 5:20 a.m. in Youngstown, Ohio. This is the day it begins. Rick Rodriguez makes about $32,000 a year, minus pay for days he misses, no paid sick leave, no health care he can afford. Husband and father of three. He's a pickup delivery driver.

RICK SANCHEZ, DELIVERY DRIVER: I'm looking for better pay, paid holidays, better health care for my family.

CROWLEY: Both sides of Big Labor's big split agree, this is about how to best help guys like Rodriguez.

ANDREW STERN, PRESIDENT SEIU: This is really a question of whether the truck driver going to work today, the person about to go to work at Wal-Mart is going to have their work valued and rewarded.

CROWLEY: Deregulation, globalization, downsizing, outsourcing, the rust belt booms and busts. In the 50 years since the AFL-CIO merged, union membership in the private sector has gone from 35 percent to 8 percent.

JAMES HOFFA, PRESIDENT, TEAMSTERS: We are not going to stand still and see the labor movement die.

CROWLEY: The dissenters want to give less labor money to politicians and more to grassroots organizing.

JEFF FARMER, TEAMSTERS ORGANIZING DIRECTOR: You know, workers are looking for a plan, they're looking for some power, they're looking for ways that give them the confidence that they can do this.

GREG CHOCKLEY, TEAMSTERS ORGANIZER: I'm Greg Chockley with the teamsters.

CROWLEY: The Teamsters have been in Youngstown now for about a month trying to organize drivers for an independent contractor to DHL. They are knocking on doors, chatting up local politicians, passing out information, trying to alleviate fears.

CHOCKLEY: Don't forget that we do have a meeting tonight at 7:00 p.m.

CROWLEY: It is all about to come together. Rick Rodriguez and most of his fellow drivers want to unionize. They want to be Teamsters.

CHOCKLEY: Now one of the steps to winning this election is presenting these petitions to the boss.

CROWLEY: On the night before the day it begins, the Teamsters stage some role play, helping Rodriguez get ready to tell the boss.

RODRIGUEZ: We're here together. We present a majority of the workers here at B & L Freight --

CHOCKLEY: You know, I don't want to hear it. I'll let you go back to work right now, or I'm going to fire you all.

HOFFA: There's a lot of people that say hey, I want to join a union, but I'm afraid I'm going to lose my job. And who is going to feed my kids. And we have to take that fear out of it.

CROWLEY: When Rodriguez was pushing union, he heard the fear. He had it too. But now he's ready. At daybreak, he writes out what he's going to say one last time.

UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: We are the union. Mighty, mighty union

CROWLEY: Forty-eight of 54 employees signed petitions supporting a union. The national labor relations board will soon set an election date. But this is the day it began. Candy Crowley, CNN.


BROWN: One footnote on this. The owners of B & L Freight in Youngstown, Ohio, did not respond to repeated requests for an interview, in a written statement from its headquarters in Florida, DHL said it has relationships with unionized and non-unionized companies and takes no position on the union status of employees in those companies.

Coming up, Senator Rick Santorum on the culture, the cultural wars, on judges, stay at home moms, abortion, you name it, we'll get to it. Senator Santorum is here. We'll take a break first.

And later, the Pope speaks out on terrorism and stirs up a hornets nest. What he didn't say is raising hackles. We raise a hackle or two, whatever a hackle is. This is NEWSNIGHT.


BROWN: Sam Rayburn, the legendary speaker of the house of representatives was legendary for many things, but is remembered for saying this if you want to get along, go along. Safe to say our guest tonight rarely gets called the get along/go along type. Rick Santorum, the junior senator from Pennsylvania is fiercely partisan, openly devout, frequently outspoken. He's also the third ranking Republican in the United States Senate, and now the author of "It Takes a Family: Conservatism and the Common Good." We're pleased to see him always, and pleased that he's with us in New York tonight. Nice to see you.


BROWN: When's the last time you checked Amazon to see how the book was doing?

SANTORUM: My wife checked it earlier today.

BROWN: Thank you. That's what we call the honesty question, right here. OK. How was it doing?

SANTORUM: It was like 100 or 120, or something -- 140, I forget what it was.

BROWN: Well, check when it you get off.

SANTORUM: I'm sure. I want to see which program gives it the biggest bump.

BROWN: You can't know. I'll talk a little about the book, a little about other things. I saw a poll the other day that said 60 percent of the country wanted to know how Judge Roberts felt about Roe v Wade. It's a settled case. Do you think the country's entitled to know whether he believes that that case was decided correctly?

SANTORUM: You know my feeling is, you have to look at the standard of what's been applied in the past. And what judges in the past have been forced to answer is, you know, how they felt about, you know, sort of the black letter law, if you will. Not really looking at, how would you rule in cases...

BROWN: I'm not asking how you'd rule. This is a settled case. Roe v Wade is a settled case, it is settled. Is this a fair question, do you agree that that case was settled correctly? Is that a fair question to ask him?

SANTORUM: Well, let me put it this way. That question was asked of Judge Ginsberg, it was asked of Judge Breyer and neither of them answered the question.

BROWN: So the answer is no you don't think the country is entitled...

SANTORUM: Well I think, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I mean, it's remarkable that we have an ACLU lawyer, not just someone who -- I mean, an ACLU lawyer who gets a pass on their ideology for the United States Senate and we have a lawyer who is really a lawyer's lawyer, he's been all over the place, is clearly not someone with an agenda and all of a sudden they have to answer litmus test kinds of questions. Is that fair? I would say it's not fair.

BROWN: All I want to know is if -- it's really a simple question.

SANTORUM: I'm giving you the answer. The answer is no. If it wasn't answered in the past, it shouldn't be answered in the future.

BROWN: OK. So we're not entitled to know whether he thinks that was settled correctly, no. Why? Isn't that a good thing to know? Because people vote for and against that.

SANTORUM: I think you should know about how a judge makes a decision and what he takes into consideration in making that decision. But as far as applying it to a specific case...

BROWN: Even if that case has been decided?

SANTORUM: Right, you know, I think even if that case has been decided, yeah. I think you want -- you want to look at -- this is not a test of how judges feel about certain issues. You get to elect members of the Congress. We have to answer those questions.

BROWN: Do you think there's a right to privacy in the Constitution?

SANTORUM: No -- well, not the right to privacy as created under Roe v. Wade and all...

BROWN: Do you think there's a right to privacy in the Constitution?

SANTORUM: I think there's a right to unreasonable -- to unreasonable search and seizure...

BROWN: For example, if you'd been a Supreme Court judge in Griswold versus Connecticut, the famous birth control case came up, which centered around whether there was a right to privacy. Do you believe that was correctly decided?

SANTORUM: No, I don't. I write about it in the book. I don't.

BROWN: The state of Connecticut had the right to ban birth control for a married couple.

SANTORUM: I think they were wrong. It was a bad law.

BROWN: But they had the right.

SANTORUM: They had the right. They had the right...

BROWN: Why would a conservative argue that government should interfere with that most personal decision?

SANTORUM: I didn't. I said it was a bad law. And...

BROWN: But they had the right to make.

SANTORUM: They had the right to make it. Look, legislatures have the right to make mistakes and do really stupid things...


SANTORUM: ... but we don't have to create constitutional rights because we have a stupid legislature. And that's the problem here, is the court feels like they have a responsibility to right every wrong. When they do that, unlike a Congress, that if we make a really stupid mistake and we do something wrong, we go back next year or next month and change it, and we've done that. Courts don't do that. They only get cases that come before them and they have to make broad, sweeping decisions that have huge impact down the road.

That's what happened in Griswold. It was a bad law. The court felt, we can't let this bad law stand in place. It's wrong. It was. But they made a -- they created out of whole cloth a right that now has gone far, far from Griswold versus Connecticut.

BROWN: I'm going to do something I almost never do. The control room just -- we're going to go -- we're going to run long here. This is fun and interesting.


BROWN: I want to talk about the thing you said about Boston for a second.


BROWN: OK. I don't know if we have this. We can put it on the screen, but you said "when the culture is sick, every element becomes infected. While it is no excuse, the scandal" -- referring to the priest abuse scandal -- "it is no secret that Boston, the seat of academic, political, cultural liberalism in America, lies at the center of the storm."

First of all, wasn't that a little over the top?

SANTORUM: Well, what's over the top is taking a three-year-old article...

BROWN: What's the context?

SANTORUM: And the context was, I was writing about the priest scandal and condemning the priest scandal, condemning the church...

BROWN: Well, of course you were condemning it. No one supports it.

SANTORUM: ... and talking about concrete things we need to do to fix it. I was out there. No other United States senator...

BROWN: Why so -- why Boston?

SANTORUM: Because, again, context. What was going on in 2002 -- not 2005, but in 2002 -- that's where the scandal was. It wasn't anywhere else. We weren't talking about it. In 2002, it was the epicenter. We didn't have the report by the bishops conference. We didn't have...

BROWN: So now you wouldn't say that?

SANTORUM: I wouldn't -- well, no, there's a lot of other cities that were involved. But the point is that cultural liberalism and what I talked about is a contributing factor to how people view sexual activity. And I am not the one that says that. Robert Bennett, in the report that he issued on behalf of the bishops conference, called the Bennett report, said exactly my words, except the word Boston wasn't in it.

BROWN: OK. But you wouldn't say that about Boston now. Is that right? Based on what we know about the scandal.

SANTORUM: I said it then, it was the...

BROWN: Not then, now?

SANTORUM: ... yeah, it was the epicenter, and there are many other cities that that would apply.

BROWN: All right, I want to talk -- for the next -- we've got two more minutes. Will you come back, by the way?

SANTORUM: We haven't even talked about my book yet.

BROWN: We're about to.


BROWN: I'm not here to sell books. You're here to sell books.

SANTORUM: I'm here to sell books.

BROWN: You're here to sell books.


BROWN: What we were talking about in the break was that -- my belief that actually in many respects, the left and the right talk (INAUDIBLE), but they agree on a lot of things. It takes a child -- it takes a family and it takes a village, in fact, are both true. And I think you'd agree with that.

SANTORUM: And I say that, yeah.

BROWN: Right. And that the left doesn't believe it only takes a village any more than the right believes it only takes a family.

SANTORUM: It's where you start from. I think the left -- the left starts from the top down. Believes in the experts, believes in...

BROWN: What is the basis of that? Why do you believe that?

SANTORUM: Well, I mean, look at institutions dominated by the left. I mean, education. I talk about this very much in the book. I mean, it was created very much as a way of having, you know, social control from the top, and modernizing it to -- into our culture, progressive children, and having state control of education. It's been a battle ever since for local control of schools, versus the experts on top trying to decide for us how to handle...

BROWN: Republican administration -- this -- your administration has exerted more federal control over schools than any in history.

SANTORUM: Yeah. I have serious -- serious problems and have had serious problems with federal legislation. And had very serious concerns about No Child Left Behind...

BROWN: Did you vote for it?

SANTORUM: I voted for it, because what it basically required was accountability. It didn't dictate how we get there. It dictated that you had the measure how you get there. And to me, that is basically holding folks accountable for what they do, as opposed to dictating what they do.

BROWN: Do you really think that left and right have a dramatically different view of how a good child is formed?

SANTORUM: I would say yes. The highest virtue of the left in the world today is tolerance, and that is -- that's acceptance of anything, and anything for any reason. Well, I don't believe on the right -- or I don't think most Americans, not just on the right -- I don't think most Americans see it that way. I think most Americans want people to have certain virtues, honesty, integrity and all those other things. There may be agreement, and certainly obviously the left wants honesty and integrity, but there is a lot of things they don't accept.

BROWN: The best way to sell books is to be an interesting person. You have been. It's nice to see you.

SANTORUM: Thanks a lot.

BROWN: Thank you, Rick Santorum.

SANTORUM: I appreciate it.

BROWN: I hope you come back, really.


BROWN: Thank you.

Just ahead, the shuttle countdown, other things to take care of. This is NEWSNIGHT.


BROWN: Control room's recovering from its heart attack.

In a moment, the man who took the money and ran. But first, it's about quarter to the hour, time for other headlines of the day. Erica Hill is in Atlanta -- Ms. Hill.

HILL: A collective heart attack, I think. But it was good stuff, I'll give you that.

BROWN: Thank you.

HILL: And now I'm going to move, so I don't get in trouble.

We begin in Virginia, where an investigation is now under way. Five Scout leaders were killed this afternoon in an electrical accident on the opening day of the Boy Scouts of America's annual jamboree. There are no details at this hour on how the accident happened. More than 400,000 Scouts, leaders and volunteers from around the world are gathered at an Army training base for the jamboree.

Israel wants the Vatican to explain why it was left out of Pope Benedict's sermon on Sunday. The pope condemned recent suicide bombings in a number of countries, including Egypt, Turkey, Iraq and Britain, but did not refer to Israel, where two weeks ago, a Palestinian suicide bomber killed five people in Netanya.

Here's a little something you might not know. Those tasers that police officers carry, the very same tasers are in many states legal for civilians to own and largely unregulated. And now, the company that makes them is launching a national ad campaign starting in Florida, targeting the general public. Taser calls the product "safe," but when reached for comment, Miami's police chief said they're worried about people using them without training and the lack of background checks to stop criminals from also arming themselves with 50,000 volts.

Finally, tomorrow is the day for Discovery. NASA hoping it's fixed the problem that scrubbed the space shuttle's first launch attempt two weeks ago. But if the fuel gauge issue pops up again during tomorrow's planned liftoff, NASA may bend its own safety rules and launch anyway. Liftoff scheduled for 10:39 a.m. Eastern tomorrow. You can join us for a special edition of CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING" beginning at 10:00 a.m. -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. I think the control room wants to buy a taser for those days the anchor runs long. Thank you very much.

He was a millionaire rogue trader turned fugitive. As part of our anniversary series, "Then and Now," we look back at Nick Leeson and where he is today.


PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He is the British trader who tried to beat the market a decade ago and lost: 28-year-old Nick Leeson lost $1.3 billion, to be exact, of his employer's money, single-handily bankrupting the 233-year-old Barings Bank. Leeson briefly tried to run from the law before being arrested at Frankfurt Airport in 1995.

While serving almost four-and-a half years in a Singapore jail, his wife divorced him and he was diagnosed with colon cancer. Homeless and unemployed, he capitalized on his experience, penning his first book "Rogue Trader." Transferred to the silver screen, Leeson was immortalized by the actor Ewan McGregor. Now 38 and remarried, he lives in Ireland with his beautician wife and three children.

NICK LEESON, AUTHOR: I never wake up and feel sorry for myself. I don't wake up anymore and feel sorry for the bank or for anything that happened.

HANCOCKS: His new book, "BACK FROM THE BRINK: COPING WITH STRESS," deals with how he has moved on.

LEESON: It's done and I have to draw a line in the sand and get on with my life.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Check morning papers after the short break.


BROWN: Okey doke. Time to check the morning papers from around the country, and around the world. That was fun with Senator Santorum, wasn't it. I've got to tell the control more often I want to run long. "The Washington Post" starts it off. I don't think they're that thrilled. They lead with terror all over the place. "U.S. pushes antiterrorism in Africa." I put this on my front page, "two top unions split from AFL-CIO. Labor movement at a cross roads in the country." And down here, in "The Post" today, bill wouldn't wean U.S. oil off oil imports, analysts say. This is a bill that's making it's way through Congress, and that's true and that's because we're not really serious about cutting back on foreign imports really. We just say we are.

"The Washington Times." "Hillary courts centrists." Any story having to do with Mrs. Clinton, Senator Clinton, tends to make the front page. "Talks tough on national security military strength." But here's the one that we actually care about. "Chocolate company probes medical uses. Cocoa component is a health food according to the mars company, of Mclean, Virginia." I had some M&Ms earlier today and I feel much healthier.

The, I was going to say something about Denver but then people are going to ask me what the John Denver song is on my iPod. And I'm not telling. "The Christian Science Monitor." Illegal entry by non- Mexicans rises," is their lead. "Terror shifts Muslim views." Apparently the fact that terrorists are blowing up Muslims has people concerned, let's just stop killing people, how's that?

The weather in Chicago, if you're passing through tomorrow, thank you, swampy.

The picture of the day will leave you saying yikes! After the break.


BROWN: OK. Twenty seconds for the picture of the day. Slight dispute. Get 'em both in. Give me the first one. Our team of judges choose Chelsea Davis, yikes, performing a reverse Louganis at the World Aquatic Championship.

Show me the other one, quickly. Isn't that just a cool picture. The bubble child. I don't know, that's a kid swimming. Anyway, I like that one. We'll see you tomorrow for more, 10:00 Eastern. Good night.