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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

London Bombings Suspect in Custody in Zambia

Aired July 28, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAULA ZAHN, GUEST HOST: A significant development in the investigation of the London terror attacks, this time by way of Zambia, where a British man of Indian descent is now in custody. British investigators believe he may have helped the July 7th bombers carry out their deadly attacks. But he's also wanted by U.S. authorities for his alleged ties to al Qaeda. The question tonight, could he have been caught sooner? Here's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While he is now in custody in Zambia, was there a missed opportunity to arrest Haroon Rashid Aswat weeks ago, before the London bombings, bombings in which police believe Aswat may have played a role?

It all started here in Bly, Oregon, where U.S. officials say Aswat allegedly scouted this ranch for use as a jihad training camp, met with potential recruits, and even conducted firearms training.

Fast forward to early this summer. Sources tell CNN Aswat was traced to South Africa. The U.S. wanted to capture him and bring him back to New York, but multiple U.S. sources with knowledge of the case say British authorities balked, because Aswat is a British citizen. While the two sides were negotiating, Aswat slipped away.

PAT D'AMURO, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, NEW YORK: We have an extradition treaty with the U.K., and they do become concerned when you are talking about rendering a citizen back to any particular country.

ARENA: Sources say there is an arrest warrant for Aswat under seal in New York. It's unclear whether U.S. investigators will get a chance to question him, and counterterrorism experts say it's also not clear whether having him in custody before the bombings would have changed anything.

D'AMURO: We don't know if this individual, one, is involved, two, if he was involved, would he have cooperated and provided that information, which might have led to stopping a terrorist attack.

ARENA: Officials say there are very high-level negotiations under way with Zambia over who will get access to Aswat and when.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ZAHN: The investigation in London involves both a massive manhunt and extensive forensic work as well. One of the biggest breaks so far for police was finding a car filled with bombs just five days after the July 7th attacks. The bombs contain important clues, clues that could lead to terrorists. Here's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The terrible carnage in London, British police say, was caused by devices weighing less than 10 pounds, perhaps like this, one of 16 recovered from a car seized by investigators not long after the deadly July 7th bombings. According to a Scotland Yard document obtained by CNN, all 16 contained white peroxide-based explosive, a description consistent with the highly volatile TATP.

MALCOLM BRADY, FORMER BATF AGENT: It's readily made from materials that's available at all your stores. It can be composed in the bathtub and compacted and used. And it's historically been used by suicide bombers.

MESERVE: To most of us, this X-ray of one of the recovered devices is simply a ghostly, ghastly image. But for a forensics expert, it's a gold mine.

GEORGE BOURIES, FORMER FBI EXPLOSIVES EXPERT: The devices themselves are basically low-tech, kind of simple devices, not at the high, more complicated design of IEDs, with, say, you know, remote- control detonation or something like that.

MESERVE: In the X-ray, experts can make out a blasting cap surrounded by the explosive charge, with a loop on top, which appears to be a switching or safety device. The only thing missing, a battery.

But the most notable feature, the nails, carefully positioned up and down the sides, possibly held in place with clear plastic wrap.

BRADY: They look like tacks often used for carpet tacks. And those are made for one reason. Those are anti-personnel devices. They're made and intended for the purpose of killing people, or at least damaging and maiming them.

MESERVE: According to the Scotland Yard document, four improvised detonators were also found in the car, along with four devices consisting of plastic boxes wrapped in plastic electrical tape, two devices with fuses which could be lit with a match, and four explosive-filled plastic containers with orange lids. They had no visible means of detonation.

Forensic experts also examined a photo of a device recovered after the bombing attempts of July 21st. Sitting next to it, what appears to be a nine-volt battery.

Malcolm Brady believes the yellow material in the photo is, again, TATP, perhaps too old for the device to have detonated properly.

BRADY: What I've seen, there's a common -- there's a common design; there's a common explosive material; there's a common detonation effect of it. So, there's a lot of commonality there that will take us back to the same people again.

MESERVE: But former FBI forensics expert George Bouries thinks the yellow material could be foam used by authorities to disable the device.

Forensic examiners in Britain will examine the actual devices, of course, perhaps lifting fingerprints, even DNA, doing chemical analyses, hoping the bombs will lead them to the person or people who made them.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So it's been one week since the botched second attack in London with three of the July 21st bombers still on the run. British police are in a race against time to catch the bad guys before they strike again. Here's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A week since the last attempted bombings, and police were swarming through London's transport network. The ongoing investigation into the attacks, the biggest ever in Metropolitan Police history, costing almost $1 million a day.

The pace of the investigation has been fast: 12 arrests in the last 24 hours; 21 arrests in the weeks since the failed bombings. But the intensity of the investigation and the pressure to get quick results is taking a toll.

SIR IAN BLAIR, METRO POLICE COMMISSIONER: I'm looking at some very tired men and women, very, very tired indeed. And they need all the support they can get, because they're going to be -- it's going to be difficult days ahead.

ROBERTSON: Outside Scotland Yard, police reinforcements are flocking in from around the country. But at least three suspect bombers remain on the loose.

BLAIR: We are at a somber moment. It does remain possible that those at large will strike again. And it does also remain possible that there are other cells who are capable and intent on striking again.

ROBERTSON: For the police, it's a rollercoaster ride. Good luck and bad coming in equal measure. A new photo of a suspect bomber, then a raid a few hours later on his flat. Three women arrested. Then, hours later, nine more people arrested in south London. The stakes to catch the failed bombers could not be higher. BLAIR: This is not the B-team. These weren't the amateurs. They made a mistake. They only made one mistake, and we're very, very lucky. The carnage which would have occurred had those bombs gone off would have at least been equivalent to those on the 7th of July.

ROBERTSON: Still not clear if the terror cell behind the July 7th bombings that killed 52 people, a predominantly ethnic Pakistani cell from the north of England, is linked to the July 21st cell, most of whom appear to be of East African ethnicity.

And although more investigation is required, an apparent admission, a fifth bomb discovered in a London park, could mean there is a fifth bomber still on the loose.

BLAIR: We're conscious of the fact that that bomb is there, and that's got indications for us as to, you know, further possibilities.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Even high security on the transport network may be no protection against future attacks. Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said next time, the bombers may choose an entirely new target.

Nic Robertson, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Well, the one thing that no one will dispute, that people on edge can often make mistakes, and in the case of the Brazilian electrician, who police in London took for a suicide bomber, mistakes can kill. This, however, is the story of the people who by and large don't make mistakes. Their job is to save lives and to kill. And as you're about to see, they do both very well indeed. Here's Becky Anderson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was one of the most dramatic rescue dramas the world has ever seen.

May, 1980. Thirty men in black scaling the walls of the Iranian embassy in London, bursting through windows, confronting six terrorists who had held 19 people hostage for nearly a week.

The entire operation lasted seven minutes. And when it was over, the hostages had been freed, all but one of their captors killed.

John McAleese was a soldier on the ledge, a member of the Special Air Service, or SAS, an elite wing of the British army, where men are trained to kill terrorists.

JOHN MCALEESE, FORMER SAS: (INAUDIBLE) I think in a way.

ANDERSON: Over a pint of Guinness in Wales, McAleese tells me about the Iranian embassy siege.

MCALEESE: It was just another day. ANDERSON: Another day of setting off stun grenades, bursting in on terrorists, guns blazing.

MCALEESE: The first thing that was going through my head was, I hope to hell this thing works. And I turned about, I don't know, there was somebody shooting at us. And basically, you just start firing back. And that was it.

ANDERSON: It wasn't the first time John McAleese had faced terrorists.

MCALEESE: They've got this fiery look, you know, like they're on this magic mission from god, you know. And it's like a race horse with blinkers and nothing is going to stop them. Everything is instinctive. You recognize them as one of the bad guys. You drop them. That's it. Simple. Or dead simple if you want to call it that.

ANDERSON: McAleese wouldn't tell me how many men he killed in his 15 years with the SAS.

MCALEESE: There's a question about it in your mind, you think job, forget about it. Then maybe 20 years later, you have a nightmare or something. You don't know.

CLIVE FAIRWEATHER, FORMER SAS: During those seven minutes, I'm glad to say I was nowhere near the particular action.

ANDERSON: Clive Fairwether was the second in command of the SAS operation that day. Watching as his soldiers did what he trained them to do, free the hostages, kill the terrorists. I want you to explain, if you will, to me, what it feels like to be in a position where you know you're going to shoot somebody and you're going to kill them?

FAIRWEATHER: All the senses are operating. So for those intense few minutes, not only is your life threatened, you feel intensely alive as well.

ANDERSON: Two men, both former soldiers, both veterans of the siege here at the Iranian embassy. Both know how it feels to look a terrorist in the eye. But what they can't agree on, is what should happen next.

MCALEESE: They're in there to kill. And they're going to kill more people. So the only way to stop them is to kill them.

ANDERSON: Even, he says, if the man in front you just looks like he could be suicide bomber.

MCALEESE: It's real life, it's not television. You know, people see too much television films, the shooting the cops and all that rubbish. In real life, it doesn't happen that way.

ANDERSON: And what of the innocent Brazilian man, mistakenly shot by police in a London subway last week. MCALEESE: Let's say he had the bomb with him and that went off, everyone and the policemen plus all the other people in the carriage, they'd be dead. They' be blown to smithereens. You'd could still argue them back all the do-gooders, you say couldn't you have shot him in the arm or shot in the leg and captured him? You know, it doesn't work that way.

ANDERSON: From Clive Fairweather, a more tempered response, but not necessarily a different result.

FAIRWEATHER: You only open fire if there's no other option to save either the public's life or your life. You're authorized to open fire. But even if you open fire, you've got to realize that you use absolutely the minimum force.

ANDERSON: He says for now it's up to the police, not soldiers to protect the public. There's a difference, he insists. And it's a good one.

FAIRWEATHER: It's one which I hope will reassure the public. Soldiers, from day one, whether they're special forces, are trained to kill. Policemen, from day one, are trained to observe the law. They are much more drilled into them the idea of protecting life.

ANDERSON: Becky Anderson, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Becky with a very interesting look at what these very strong and courageous men and women are up against.

Coming up, controversy over two cold medicines. One not the cure many thought it would be. The other can be deadly.

But first, at just about 13 minutes past the hour, time for the other headlines from Erica Hill at "HEADLINE NEWS." Hi, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, Paula. We start off with another problem for the man President Bush wants to be the next ambassador to the United Nations. The state department saying John Bolton was wrong when he told Congress he hadn't been interviewed or testified in any investigation over the last five years. The state department spokesman says Bolton was interviewed as part of an investigation into discredited reports that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger. But that eventually led into the CIA leak affair, blowing the cover of Agent Valerie Plame Wilson.

An exploding fuel train to another deadly day in Iraq. A bomb on the tracks turned the train of fuel cars, tank cars, into an inferno, killing two.

Meantime, elsewhere in Iraq, two U.S. soldiers killed, one wounded in a roadside bombing. The U.S. military says Marine jets dropped laser guided bombs on insurgent positions, killing nine.

Some more legal troubles now for "The New York Times." A federal appeals court has reinstated a liable suit against the paper. Former army scientists Steven Hatfield sued the times, saying columns written by Nicholas Kristof unfairly linked him to the deadly anthrax mailings of 2001. Now Hatfield had also filed a defamation suit against former Attorney General John Ashcroft.

In Philadelphia, police searching a park today for any sign of 24-year-old Latoyia Figueroa. She is pregnant and has been missing since she disappeared ten days ago. Her cell phone has gone quiet. Her bank has not recorded any new transactions. There is a $10 thousand reward offered for any information leading to the missing woman. And with that, Paula, we'll turn it back to you.

ZAHN: So are you surprised I'm up this late tonight?

HILL: I am a little bit. But it's nice to see you.

ZAHN: Well, thank you. Good to see you. As always.

HILL: And I'll see you again in a little bit.

ZAHN: Yes. About a half hour or so. But who's counting.

HILL: All right.

ZAHN: We're going to change the subject back to terrorism, now. Starting with a question. Can you stop suicide bombers with words?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice over): What if saying something could stop the bad guys from doing something. We'll talk with a Muslim cleric trying to do just that.

Also tonight, a backflip in space.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It went so well, as a matter of fact, it looked easy, it even looked easy to us.

ZAHN: Now, the hard part. More loose foam and more questions.

Got a cold? This will clear your head. That cold remedy everyone's taking. How well do you suppose it works?

And later, will a switch in time leave you in the dark? Not moo, you. Making daylight savings time last longer, because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: In Northern Ireland, an historic bid for peace. The Irish Republican Army, the IRA, formally renounced the use of violence against British rule.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GERRY ADAMS, SINN FEIN PRESIDENT: Today's decision by the IRA to move into a new peaceful mode is historic and represents a courageous and competent initiative. It is truly momentous and is a defining point in the search for a lasting peace with justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: British Prime Minister Tony Blair called it a step of quote, "unparalleled magnitude." Ireland's prime minister was a little bit more measured and key Irish Protestant leaders said they're looking for concrete action toward disarmament, not just words from the IRA. More than 3, 600 people have been killed and many more wounded in more than 35 years of conflict, largely between Catholics and Protestants over British rule in Northern Ireland.

The terror attacks in Britain are again making life very difficult for mainstream Muslims. Today, a major Muslim council issued a fatwa, an Islamic religious ruling against terrorism and extremism. It was signed and endorsed by at least 130 other major Muslim organizations in the U.S. Imam Yahya Hendi is the Muslim chaplain at Georgetown University and also the Imam of the Islamic Society of Frederick. He participated in the issuing of today's fatwa. He joins us now from Washington. Good of you to join us sir. Thanks so much for being with us.

IMAM YAHYA HENDI, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Thank you for having me.

ZAHN: Can you tell me tonight why a terrorist would take this fatwa seriously?

HENDI: Well, we hope that some people's minds, hearts and souls can still be transformed. I do believe in the power of miracles and faith. I also hope to bring the minds of some terrorists to the Koran, to understand the true message of the Koran, the true message of Mohammed. That is a message of peace, love and universal brotherhood.

But we also hope, that even if these terrorists do not change, we are trying to bring an end to recruitment of more young Muslim men and women.

ZAHN: But how successful can you really be when, in fact, the very terrorists you're trying to address distort the meaning of the Koran? You know as well as I do, they turn specifically to chapter 9 verse five, quote, "fight them wherever you see them." How can you prevent them from manipulating what you think that means?

HENDI: We would like them to understand the general message of Islam. And the general message of the Koran that is a message that speaks of universal brotherhood. By that, I mean the Koran also says all mankind, God created you from a single soul of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may come to know each other, not that you may despise each other.

I use this verse to say that the Koran also wants us to fight the terrorists wherever they may be. For me, this verse is not for Muslims to go out after civilians, but rather after extremists and terrorists to bring them to justice and to bring their violence to an end.

ZAHN: But Imam, it strikes me you have two separate audiences you're trying to reach here. The terrorists on one hand, would-be terrorists on another hand and then the American audience. You had a talk show host in Washington, D.C., calling Islam, quote, "a terrorist organization." You know that there is a growing conviction in the United States that equates Islam with terrorism and violence. Can you really successfully confront those perceptions?

HENDI: I do and I can if my fellow Americans were to open their minds, hearts and souls to Islam. To study Islam from within, to visit our Islamic centers, to visit our mosques, to invite a local imam to your community to read the Koran for yourself, to find what the Koran really teaches and what Mohammed really teaches.

You know, the Koran -- there's a verse in the Koran that says "who brings about life to one human being, it will be as if he brought about life to all the people's of the world. And he who causes death to one, it would be as if he has caused death to all of humankind."

Prophet Mohammed called upon Muslims to respect their neighbors, give a voice for the voiceless and offer a shelter for the homeless. That is what Islam is all about. And I believe Jews, Christians and Muslims have a lot to learn from each other.

ZAHN: But in spite of, imam, what you're saying here tonight, do you concede that Muslims-Americans maybe of your stature haven't spoken out aggressively enough against terrorism?

HENDI: You know, it depends really on what you mean by that. I believe many Muslims have spoken out aggressively against extremism and terrorism. I myself gave more than 600 lectures since September 11 in churches, synagogues, and universities. But I know also many other imams who have done the same thing around the country.

Now, have we done enough? I don't know what we really mean by enough. There is always a room to improve, to grow and do more.

However, I want my fellow Americans to open their doors for us. And also visit our doors and our homes to realize that we are fellow human beings in the countering of extremism and terrorism that we all have done. There is every religious community has done extremism and violence in the name of its religion. And I very often say, in the name of our religions, have we violated each other's rights? But in the name of religion, can we now and for good bring about peace to this world?

ZAHN: I think that's a very good question that people of a lot of different faiths pose from time to time. Imam, unfortunately, we've got to leave it there, because we're up against a commercial break. Imam Hendi thank you for sharing your thoughts with us tonight. Coming up a little bit later on the program, the cold medicine you might be taking right now and why you might want to stop taking it right now.

Also, Congress wants to extend daylight saving time. Why airlines aren't too crazy about the idea. And why you might want to look into it too.

Around the world, but not around the clock, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Columbus Circle on a beautiful night in New York. The place is finally finished after months of renovation.

Years ago, in merry Old England, they had a cure for the common cold, get in bed with a bottle of gin, put a hat on the bedpost. Sip the gin until you see two hats, or three hats, four. When you wake up, no more cold.

Seems to me, they were on to something. Not about gin, but the bed rest. Time, it seems, is the on thing to cure a cold. Not gin, not hats. And as a report out today, not echinacea. Details now from Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's amazing how much passion one little herb can induce.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love echinacea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes a great miracle drug.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have faith in it and I believe it helped me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it works. I've taken it a lot over the years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they're being hoodwinked. I think they're being duped.

COHEN: Many people swear by echinacea to prevent and treat colds. So the new study published in one of the world's most prestigious medical journals, saying it simply doesn't work has shocked those who love echinacea.

LISA GEORGETTI, INTEGRAL YOGA NAT. APOTHECARY: I always had people coming back going oh, this was great. Oh, I'm getting more for my cousin. I'm getting more for my mother.

COHEN: Doctor Jerome Kassirer at Tufts University was not surprised by the study results.

DR. JEROME KASSIRER, TUFTS UNIVERSITY: I think the idea that we're spending $7 billion a year on these worthless supplements is a phenomenon. A phenomenal waste of money.

COHEN: Even with the new study, that view is not universal.

DR. MARY JO DIMILIA, MOUNT SINAI HOSPITAL: Some of my patients have actually not gotten sick because they went on it early enough. And some of them swear by it. You know, they start to get sick, they take the echinacea, and as soon as they start it, they're feeling better.

COHEN: Many who favor herbal remedies say the echinacea study was done with doses so low, it never would have worked, and say the doctors who did the study are giving herbal medicines a bad name.

DIMILIA: Unfortunately, for people who maybe never tried an herb or a vitamin, they're going to have a closed opinion.

COHEN: But a large part of the medical community wonders why people use a lot of these products in the first place, given that makers of dietary supplements don't have to prove their products work before they're put on the market.

KASSIRER: The fact is, that the manufacturers of the herbs have to prove nothing.

COHEN: Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Oh, I'm so depressed to hear that. I'm a big fan of echinacea.

The Senate today took up the matter of another cold remedy. Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee voting to back a bill restricting the sale of pseudoephedrine, because it can be used to make crystal meth. A number of states already do. Reporting from Oklahoma tonight, Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The drive we're taking around Oklahoma City is a familiar journey for Randy McQuay.

RANDY MCQUAY, RECOVERING METH ADDICT: Can you just hit these little out of the way ones? I mean, it didn't matter.

LAVANDERA: He used to cook his own methamphetamines. Getting what he needed to make the lethal drug was as easy as making a run to the convenience store.

(on camera): Two little stops, you get a hit up here real quick.

MCQUAY: Oh yeah, you know, you could get a half dozen over here, and go over here and get a half a dozen more. And just, I mean, all in this one little area.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): At the top of the shopping list, over- the-counter medicines containing pseudoephedrine, found in many cold and allergy medicines such as Sudafed, Nyquill and Tylenol Cold. It's also the main ingredient in making meth.

But last year, Oklahoma cracked down, requiring that people buy pseudoephedrine only at pharmacies, show identification, and enter their name in a registry. And the law also limits how much you can buy.

Now Congress is considering legislation that would apply most of these restrictions nationwide.

Recovering meth addict Randy McQuay says the law will make a difference.

MCQUAY: Anything that we can do to make it tougher, that's what we need to do. Because there's too many kids dying from this stuff. I mean, I've seen too many of them die.

LAVANDERA: McQuay has seen it in his own life. His 16-year-old son, Josh, was killed in a car crash on a night that he was using meth. McQuay says at the time, he was too busy getting himself high to notice his son was using the drug too.

MCQUAY: He wanted to be just like me, and he was. Turned out an addict just like I was.

LAVANDERA (on camera): Oklahoma is one of 20 states with strict controls on pseudoephedrine sales. The law is credited with forcing thousands of meth labs out of business. Oklahoma authorities say they busted 120 labs in the month before the law went into effect here, and only nine in the last month. They say fewer labs are now operating.

(voice-over): Retail and drug companies had pushed for uniform rules across the country, but the federal legislation allows states to make more restrictive laws if they choose to. For example, the federal plan would not require people to go to pharmacies for pseudoephedrine, as is the case in places like Oklahoma and Iowa.

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: I'm in favor of a national standard, but it ought to be a bottom-line standard. If any state wants to be more restrictive, we ought to allow the states to be more restrictive.

LAVANDERA: Randy McQuay spent eight years hooked on meth. He says controlling access to meth ingredients is only part of the solution.

MCQUAY: If we get rid of the addicts, and treat them, the dealers aren't going to have anybody to sell the stuff to.

LAVANDERA: McQuay's meth days ended the moment an Oklahoma sheriff busted him cooking up the drug in his barn. Instead of prison, McQuay successfully completed a state treatment program.

Still working on his problem, he says the meth control legislation is a good start, but not enough to stop other addicts dying the way his son did.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Oklahoma City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And straight ahead, new evidence that a piece of foam hit the shuttle. How safe are the astronauts, and is the entire program on the verge of going belly-up?

And a little bit later on, how the inferno started and what happened when it did. Around the country and the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Absolutely amazing show today of just how graceful a machine the shuttle can be. Also, a reminder of how flawed it still is. After putting it through a ballet in space, astronauts from Discovery were piped aboard the International Space Station. Even as they were, engineers at NASA were delivering more bad news. More foam, this time a piece apparently striking the wing of the orbiter. Reporting for us tonight, Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Space Shuttle Discovery.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After years of hard work and months of anticipation, the thrill of the launch lasted little longer than the plume Discovery left behind.

MICHAEL CABBAGE, SPACE EDITOR, "ORLANDO SENTINEL": I think it's hard to overstate just how big of a disappointment this is to NASA.

O'BRIEN: There it was again, two minutes, six seconds after liftoff, a big piece of foam peeling away, missing the orbiter, thankfully. But hitting the NASA family right in the gut.

JONATHAN CLARK, WIDOWER OF COLUMBIA ASTRONAUT: When I heard about it last night, I thought, wow.

O'BRIEN: NASA flight surgeon John Clark lost his wife, Laurel, on board Columbia on February 1st, 2003. Sixteen days before, when she and her crew mates launched to space, a big piece of foam pierced the heat shield, and Columbia was unable to withstand the blistering heat of reentry.

CLARK: The thermal protection system on the shuttle is its Achilles heel. And the debris shedding, which they anticipated very small amounts, very small size objects coming off is now obviously not the case. So they're reassessing the whole -- the whole process.

O'BRIEN: Reassessment indeed.

JOHN SHANNON, FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANAGER: We're wrong and we missed something and we have to go figure out what it was and go fix it. Whether that's just changing techniques or a redesign, we don't know.

O'BRIEN: The errant piece fell from a long, wedge-shaped section of the tank called the PAL ramp. Engineers felt it might be a source of large foam debris, but they were not certain, because they'd never had pictures like these before.

The unprecedented harvest of images has also yielded this: 20 seconds after the large piece of foam fell, a much smaller piece broke free from the same area. Engineers say it likely hit Discovery's wing.

WAYNE HALE, SHUTTLE DEPUTY PROGRAM MANAGER: This is the closest to a potential hit that we have out of all the data we've got. This was a very small piece. It wasn't the big piece that came off.

O'BRIEN: Engineers had long suspected the so-called pow ramp might be a source of debris, but the fix was not considered a high priority.

GRIFFIN: Well, there are a lot of areas on the shuttle where we know, ultimately, improvement should be had. We were not able to fix all of those. And frankly, we will never be able to fix all of those.

O'BRIEN: Fortunately, Discovery appears only slightly worse for the wear. Pictures taken by the space station crew during the shuttlesault approach to the docking, revealed only minor damage. So it appears for now the crew and NASA had dodged a few bullets.

But a question awaits when they return, how long, if ever before the fleet will fly again?

NASA can only do so much with the shuttle design, flawed as it is: frangible insulation on the outside, a fragile space craft down stream. Clearly, there won't be any shuttle launches any time soon. And many wonder if Discovery's mission might be the last.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like any aircraft you fly that eventually gets phased out, it leaves you with kind of an empty feeling in your heart. So, I will always have found memories of the shuttle and being part of the shuttle team. And I know that we are near the end.

O'BRIEN (on camera): NASA says it is sticking to its plan to fly the shuttle fleet until 2010. that had meant about 15 missions. Taking time, yet again, to redesign the external fuel tank will eat away at those flights as well as the morale of the shuttle team.

Miles O'Brien, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So given everything that miles just reported, should NASA simply end the shuttle program right now? In a moment, we're going to talk to a space skeptic, John Pike, as well as former astronaut, Walt Cunningham from the Apollo missions.

And a little bit later on, nothing quite so serious as this, the evidence that bigfoot walks the Earth. Or is it one giant leap for mankind? One thing's for sure. This is NEWSNIGHT.

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ZAHN: Earlier tonight, our executive producer asked Miles O'Brien if he thought the shuttle program would ever fly again. The look he got in return spoke volumes. So the question is, will it? And should it?

With us from Washington, John Pike, director of globalsecurity.org. And in Houston, Walter Cunningham who took Apollo 7 into space. Good to see both of you. Welcome.

Mr. Cunningham, what is your reaction to reports that, in fact a smaller piece of foam hit the orbiter. NASA saying tonight it did not strike with damaging force. How concerned are you about that?

WALTER CUNNINGHAM, APOLLO 7 PILOT: Frankly, I'm not concerned. I think the reporting so far has been far too alarmist for it. I don't believe that it extends any kind of danger to the crew on Discovery, although the ramifications of continual loss of insulation, the ramifications for the program in general, on any long, say even a two-month stand down, could be very significant for the program not for the crews.

ZAHN: Mr. Pike, do you have any concerns about the crew tonight? Is the Discovery crew vulnerable?

JOHN PIKE, GLOBALSECURITY.ORG: Well, I think you have to have concerns about it, which is why they have the extensive inspection program. My assumption based on the reporting we've seen thus far is that the inspections will conclude that the shuttle is safe to land and that the crew will return on schedule.

ZAHN: What is your chief concern, Walter, having gone to space before when it comes to Discovery. Reentry even more so than launch?

CUNNINGHAM: I'm sure that I'll watch with a little bit of baited breath, but I'm don't have extra concerns at all. I believe this will probably be one of the safest missions that NASA has ever flown. I also would be willing to bet that they have fewer strikes from insulation on the total bottom of the space craft than they've had in any recent flight. I think that they've done a great job so far, even though it still needs to be improved.

ZAHN: But Walter, what impact does it have on a the crew of Discovery to know that the space shuttle fleet now has been grounded during the middle of a mission?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, I don't think it can affect their mission in any way, because I don't believe we're ever likely to have to launch the Atlantis on a rescue mission. What is really significant, though, is if we don't get the Atlantis up to help add to resupply, there's a lot of problems that can be created downstream, both with the Russians, for example, that we can't buy any more Soyuz -- can't use any more Soyuz vehicles from them. It looks like it will almost take a Hubble reservicing mission right out of the planning stage. And resupply of spares is going to be a problem as well.

ZAHN: But John, given the continuing problem with this foam insulation falling off, do you think Discovery will be the last mission of the space shuttle program? Will Atlantis fly?

PIKE: I think that we need to ask this question. I mean, for the last end, I would have had a different answer a few hours ago. But having spent all day today thinking about it, I think I've changed my mind on it. For the last 20 years, we've been trying to do two things. We've been trying to fly the shuttle. And we've been trying to build a replacement for the shuttle.

We haven't been able to build a replacement, although there have been a number of failed attempts. I think that we're at the point right now that we should take this opportunity to stand down the shuttle, take the money that we'd save there, and quickly build an Apollo-like replacement for the shuttle, something that we can operate at less expense and less hazard to the crew. We've got strong support for the program. And Tom DeLay right now, I think uniquely strong political support in the Congress. I think that we have to take this opportunity.

ZAHN: But John, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying here. That you do think Discovery, in fact, will be the last flight of the space shuttle?

PIKE: I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball. I think that we need to think very seriously about whether that would be best for the long run future of the program, because there is the risk that we're going to run up to the end the decade when we do plan to stop flying the shuttle and we're not going to have a replacement for it.

ZAHN: You both have raised really interesting issues for all of us to think about. Walter Cunningham, John Pike, thank you for both of your insights. Appreciate it.

PIKE: Thank you.

ZAHN: We're looking at ten minutes before the hour right now. Time for the other headlines from Erica Hill at Headline News -- Erica.

HILL: Hi, Paula. This is a story that many of you will likely remember, because it was just so unbelievable at the time. A sentence tonight for a 13-year-old convicted of beating to death his 15-year- old friend with a baseball bat. It happened back in April. The judge sentenced the boy to a juvenile detention facility. He will remain there until he turns 25. That is the maximum sentence.

In Ft. Worth, Texas, a series of explosions tore through a chemical plant today setting off a massive fire, sending up a pillar of smoke that could be seen 30 miles away. At least three people were injured. Amazingly, though, we're hearing those injuries are minor. It took firefighters three hours to bring the blaze under control. There's no word yet on what caused the explosions. If there is a bigfoot running around the Yukon, didn't leave any hair behind. Scientists ran DNA tests on a clump of hair plucked from a bush near where several people said they saw a sasquatch. But alas, the locks actually from bison.

And we'll have more on NEWSNIGHT in just a moment, including the fight over time.

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ZAHN: Well, starting next year, if Congress gets its way, Americans would spring forward three weeks earlier in March and fall back one week later, right after Halloween. Not everyone, though, is convinced that's the right way to go. Chris Huntington reports.

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CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's dawn at the Dean Crest dairy farm in Blairstown, New Jersey. That's just before 6:00 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time. Burt Dean's been working for a half hour and so has his son, Bill. Their schedule is set by their dairy cows. Clock time is an afterthought. So they aren't exactly bowled over by the prospect of an extra four weeks of Daylight Savings Time.

BURT DEAN, DEAN CREST DAIRY FARM: I don't think that it makes that much difference, really.

BILL DEAN, DEAN CREST DAIRY FARM: It doesn't matter if it's light out or dark out. Because the cows have to be milked every 12 hours.

HUNTINGTON (on camera): In the past, farmers opposed Daylight Savings because it put their sun-driven schedules even more out of sync with everyone else's. These days, modern farmers simply shrug at the notion of extended daylight hours, and say that that is unlikely to help them conserve energy.

(voice-over): The Deans' farm, like most, is energy-intensive, no matter what time it is. In fact, long summer days require more power to keep the cows and the milk cool. So extending daylight hours is unlikely to help.

U.S. airline industry is in a flap,saying that change would put them out of sync with international schedules, create chaos, cost U.S. carriers $150 million a year, and disrupt half a million passengers.

JAMES C. MAY, ATA: They're either going to have to sit around airports and hour longer than they're used to sitting around, or they're going to miss their connections altogether.

HUNTINGTON: The most serious objection to extended Daylight Savings come from parents. The National PTA is concerned that for an extra four weeks a year, children would wait even longer in the dark for their morning school buss. The rationale for Daylight Savings is that it saves energy. Daylight Time was first adopted during World War I, primarily to save coal, and again during World War II to save fuel. It was extended in 1974 and '75 to save oil.

Members of Congress pushing the new extension cite the 1975 government study that found extending Daylight Savings cut U.S. energy consumption by about 1 percent. That would now be about 200,000 barrels of oil a day, based on Energy Department statistics.

David Preraur, who worked on that study, is not so sure its 30- year-old conclusions still hold.

DAVID PRERAUR, AUTHOR, "SEIZE THE DAYLIGHT": That study was comprehensive at the time, and it did find a saving of 1 percent in energy, and it did not identify any increase in travel. However, of course, things may well have changed.

HUNTINGTON: Things have changed. The Department of Energy does not stand by that study and is expected to conduct a new one.

There is one benefit that would definitely come from extending Daylight Savings: An extra hour of daylight on Halloween, so children can look forward to trick-or-treating until the cows come home.

Chris Huntington, CNN, Blairstown, New Jersey.

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ZAHN: And when you work here, it doesn't much matter, because you never go outside, you never know whether the sun is up or not.

Coming up, a moment in Olympic history we'll always remember.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This week in history, a bomb disrupted the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia, killing one person and injuring more than 100 others.

Three years later in the same city, on July 29th, Mark Barton, a day trader who lost a lot of money, went on a shooting rampage in two office buildings. He killed nine before turning the gun on himself.

And on July 24th, 1998, Russell E. Weston burst into the U.S. Capitol and opened fire, killing two police officers. It was later ruled he was incompetent to stand trial.

And that is this week in history.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And that's it for NEWSNIGHT tonight. Thanks so much for joining us. Good night. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com