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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Four London Bombing Suspects Arrested
Aired July 29, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEFF GREENFIELD, GUEST HOST: Hi. I'm Jeff Greenfield. Aaron is off tonight.
A week and a day after that botched terror attack, all four London bombing suspects are in custody tonight. And what has been a fast-moving investigation today seemed to unfold at warp speed. A series of raids in London and Rome, one captured on video, all making headlines. A dramatic day to be sure, but is it the end of the manhunt? We begin in west London tonight with CNN's Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Incredible pictures: hands on his head and shirtless, the man police say identified himself as Ibrahim Muktar Said is captured. They say he tried to detonate a bomb on a London bus last week. Neighbors saw it all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After what (INAUDIBLE) come out of the flat with your underwear on and your arms up in the air. He was then saying to them, how do I know that you're not going to shoot me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep going, please. Keep moving back.
ROBERTSON: A day of massive police raids in London and Rome, ending in the capture of Britain's three most wanted men. Now, all four suspects in last week's failed bombings are in police captivity.
It began in West London, two raids a mile apart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not -- it's not exactly clear what it is, but we've now heard four shots coming from the direction of the flats over there. The police are moving everybody out in a hurry.
ROBERTSON: The most dramatic caught on camera as police storm a flat in the low-rent Peabody housing estate. Incredibly, two floors below, a young child stumbles across the raid. She approaches to befriend the police dog. Another child joins. Then an adult appears. Eventually, the police officer is forced to back off.
Above, all is not going well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police then started to say to him, you know, like, you need to maintain contact with us. You need to come out on the street. He stopped talking to them. And then, like a more aggressive police officer came on the loudspeaker. ROBERTSON: White smoke from tear gas fired by the police begins to emerge from the flat, followed by Ibrahim, and the man police identify as Ramzi Mohammed. He appears to be the man, who, according to police, tried to detonate a bomb at the Oval tube station last week.
A mile away, in an apparently coordinated raid in the more upscale Notting Hill neighborhood, police netted another man in connection with the failed bombings. He is widely suspected to be the fifth bomber, who threw his bomb-filled backpack away in a nearby park.
At about the same time in Rome, the fourth and final suspect in last week's failed attacks was arrested. A man police now identify as Hussein Osman, whom they previously identified as suspect number four. They say he tried to detonate his bomb on a tube train in Shepherds Bush.
PETER CLARKE, DEPUTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: A European arrest warrant has been issued. And we will be seeking the return of that man to this country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: Now, all these arrests should dramatically increase the possibilities that police can capture the men behind the bombers. But they warned there could be other terror cells out there, and they could strike again -- Jeff.
GREENFIELD: Nic, the speed and the sweep of these arrests. Are we entitled to conclude from that the likelihood that there was substantial infiltration of this operation by the police or other authorities?
ROBERTSON: I think the way a lot of people here are looking at it, Jeff, the police have had a lot of closed-circuit camera, security camera video to look at. They've had those photographs that they could publicize for over a week. They've had 5,000 calls to their hotlines, they've interviewed over 1,800 people. So it seems that really, those pictures were the key. Publicizing the pictures drew responses from the public, and that seems to have been the trigger for catching all these people. They've been having all these raids over London and different areas of the country, but really, a lot of these raids does seem to be triggered by calls from the public.
GREENFIELD: Nic Robertson in London, thank you very much.
When the sun came up today, they were the three most wanted men in Britain and hours later they were in custody; two of them captured as a video camera rolled with stunned neighbors looking on. Here is CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a face well-known to the British public. Muktar Said Ibrahim, suspected July 21st bomber of a London bus.
He came to Britain in 1990 from Eritrea in East Africa as a refugee, and was convicted for a string of muggings in 1996, serving two-and-a-half years in prison. Despite his record, he was given a British passport just a year ago.
This was the moment of surrender, two suspected bombers stripped to the waist. Ibrahim is on the left. At his side, on the right, a second man being turned around by police, named as Ramzi Mohammed, suspected by police as being the Oval station bomber where he was caught on CCTV in a New York sweatshirt on July the 21st making his escape. Police say he left the device on a train heading north, then ran away.
The police net has been closing on the suspected bombers for days now. Yasin Hassan Omar is the alleged Warren Street station bomber, an immigrant from Somalia captured earlier this week. The 24-year-old has British residency and, like Ibrahim, came to Britain as a child from East Africa.
And it appears this fourth would-be bomber, suspected of the Shepherds Bush attempted attack, is now also in custody, not in London, but in Rome.
Italian officials say Hussein Osman, also of Somali origin, was detained at this apartment after being tracked across Europe through his use of a cell phone. Forensic teams are scouring the scene in the Italian capital.
And in a single day of dramatic arrests, Britain's biggest ever manhunt has taken a decisive turn, even if the threat of more terror attacks has far from disappeared.
(on camera): With those four of the bombers now in custody, police are focusing their efforts on the others who could have been involved and are still out there -- the bomb makers, the planners, and those who supported these attackers could be the next target.
Matthew Chance, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: What began as an ordinary day for residents of London's Notting Hill neighborhood soon became anything but. It is not, after all, every day that you wake up to a SWAT team on your street. Rosemarie Mogensen did, and told us about it earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEMARIE MOGENSEN, EYEWITNESS TO TERROR RAID: Well, there was a lot of chaos. I woke up by the helicopters flying over our apartments, and went onto the street and heard lots of sirens, and lots of chaos with lots of police people. The press were arriving, and just lots of police people with big rifles. The SWAT team were there, and the police had cordoned off our area of the streets. And at around 12:00, we saw about four or five cars -- three of them were civilian cars, two police cars, and in that car it looked like they had one of the suspects.
GREENFIELD: Was it pretty clear to you immediately that this was somehow related to what London's been going through these last couple of weeks?
MOGENSEN: No. I mean, you imagine that that was what it was going to be, but one of the police officers did inform the public that were standing there of what was going on.
GREENFIELD: Did you see any of the suspects? You said you saw something there. Did you recognize him at all, somebody you knew from the neighborhood?
MOGENSEN: No, not at all. I mean, I saw a man sitting in the back of the car with a white forensics suit on. I could see the color of his skin, and that's about it. I couldn't recognize him from the pictures that we had seen in the newspapers.
GREENFIELD: Now, when we in the United States hear the phrase, this was an estate section of your neighborhood, we picture rolling lawns, butlers and pantry maids and gentlemen riding the hounds. I take it that's not quite what we mean by estate section.
MOGENSEN: No, no. It's more public housing. I think that's what you call it in America. So -- and you have public housing everywhere in London. You don't only have it in certain sections of London. All areas of London have public housing.
GREENFIELD: In any sense, is this the kind of neighborhood where one would say, well, yeah, I guess a suspect in a terror bombing might live here? Or was this something that was just as surprising and as impossible to imagine as we might imagine?
MOGENSEN: It's a huge shock for the people in Notting Hill. When this happened about two weeks ago, I said to my partner, I'm happy I live in Notting Hill, because at least this is a safe area. And then awakening up this morning to see all this chaos around us was just absolutely unbelievable.
It's a safe neighborhood. It's a very vibrant neighborhood. And it's full of lively and happy people. So it's very shocking for all of us.
GREENFIELD: At the same time, I take it it's a diverse neighborhood, and it raises the question, since July 7th, have you sensed any increased suspicion of people who might look like suspects -- that is, are young men who might be of Muslim background, subjected to harder stares, towards an increased sense of, what are they doing there, or who are they?
MOGENSEN: I think in Notting Hill, no, because it is so diverse. You don't -- you know, in Notting Hill you have a huge amount of black people. You have a huge amount of all kinds of ethnic people and cultural differences.
But I think people are extremely apprehensive when they do take the bus or the train and unfortunately, they are targeted towards young Muslim men. But when walking down the street, you don't think about it. But it is just the public transport which is worrying people.
GREENFIELD: With the arrests today, in any sense, do you feel safer because of what happened?
MOGENSEN: I think what is going on in the world right now, I don't think anybody feels safe. I think everyone is apprehensive, but I also think that even though they have caught four suspects, it's not going to make the normal public rest. I think we're all going to be worried for quite a long time in the future.
GREENFIELD: Well thank you again for joining us on this rather unusual day in your life, Miss Mogensen. Thanks for being here.
MOGENSEN: Yes, very. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: So, can you ever really know the neighbors next door? Notting Hill is known as a leafy London neighborhood. It's image is that of a home to celebrities and millionaires and as the locals learned today, at least one man allegedly linked to last week's attempted terror attacks.
Here is CNN's Kelly Wallace.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of London's most famous neighborhoods, suddenly the center of the country's largest man hunt ever. Residents could only wait and watch and then learn that would-be suicide bombers were just down the street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was like: oh, my God. You know, because I never suspected something to happen around here. It doesn't strike me as the sort of place at all.
HUGH GRANT, ACTOR: I live just over the street.
WALLACE: After all, it is the place two stars made a household name in the movie "Noting Hill;" a community known for its wealthy neighbors, thriving markets and that eclectic feel with many races mixing together.
(on camera): Are you surprised?
MARTIN JORDAN, RESIDENT: Not at all.
WALLACE (on camera): How come?
JORDAN: Because this is such a multi-cultural neighborhood. We would expect like, something like this to happen. You know, at least -- we accept it because there's so many cultures here. WALLACE: Briony Chisman brought her 8-year-old daughter outside to let her record what happened this unforgettable day in their neighborhood. Briony worries things could change here.
BRIONY CHISMAN, RESIDENT: ... feel very protective of the atmosphere that we have here. I would like it to stay the same. You know, we've got a big Moroccan community here. We've got a big West Indian community. We've got a great mix of people.
WALLACE: Hours after the raids, it was almost a carnival-like atmosphere, even with the police investigation still under way. Martin Manning and his friends made a point of visiting the pub.
MARTIN MANNING, RESIDENT: It puts you on edge. So, we decided well we're not going to have that and we're going to carry on as normal and so be it. They can't beat us.
WALLACE: Still, despite the bravado, there is real fear that something so scary can hit so close to home.
Susana Walker manages a boutique just down the street from one of the raids.
SUSANA WALKER, SHOP OWNER: I think it would untrue to say we're not afraid and we're not concerned. Obviously, we are, but we are going to show resistance and we are going to continue as usual and we're not going to let this affect our lives.
WALLACE: But things have changed for the people here and throughout London. Attacks not once, but twice, they wonder, could it happen again?
Kelly Wallace, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: In a moment: They watched their son fall to the ground after a sniper's bullet struck him, watched him fall and then get up, but first, it's about a quarter-past the hour. Time for the other headlines from Erica Hill at "HEADLINE NEWS --" Erica?
ERICA HILL, "HEADLINE NEWS": Hi, Jeff. Nice to see you.
We begin with the supreme battle looming in Washington. The Senate Judiciary Committee said today the confirmation hearing for John Roberts will begin on September 6th. That gives Democrats 39 more days to wade through those 15 thousand or so of pages of documents from Judge Roberts' early days in the Justice Department.
A major victory for the gun industry today with the Senate approving legislation that gives gun-makers, dealers and distributors broad protection from civil lawsuits filed by dozens of cities and municipalities. It would also make it much more difficult for individuals to bring civil liability suits. That bill, by the way, passed 65-31. The Bush administration has approved an initial shipment to Pakistan of two f-16 fighter jets, a downpayment on what is expected to be a larger sale of newer U.S. fighters. The deal, taking place over the objections of India, Pakistan's rival and nuclear-armed neighbor. The two countries have fought three wars. They were on the brink of another just three years ago.
And as if the smallest planet in the universe didn't already have a little bit of a complex, today a Cal Tech scientist announced he's discovered a planet that may actually be larger than Pluto. The discovery, though, still needs to be confirmed, Jeff.
GREENFIELD: We'll be following that story vividly. Thank you, Erica.
Much more to come tonight, starting in Iraq and the cross-hairs of a sniper.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD (voice-over): As his parents watched, the hunted becomes the hunter. Pictures tell the story of how a soldier lived to tell the story.
Later: He's supposed to be the president's top Senate ally, but on stem cells --
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: I believe the president's policy should be modified. We should expand federal funding.
GREENFIELD: So is it political maneuvering or is that exactly the kind of question we media-types can't stop asking?
BRENDAN TOBIN, TELEMARKETING VICTIM: We have enough other things to worry about in this country right now. We don't need to make it easier on the people that annoy us.
GREENFIELD: That would be telemarketers and those dinner-time offers you can refuse. Is your government actually helping folks at the other end of the phone?
Also: A better day in space, but is this really the best we can hope for? A conversation with astronaut John Glenn, because all systems go or not, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREENFIELD: If Vietnam was the first war to come into American living rooms, the war in Iraq is something beyond that. It's the first chat-room war. Soldiers can actually be online with mom and dad. And the first camcorder war. Everybody has one, which means mom and dad can watch their son or daughter as seen by a buddy or in this case, by the enemy.
Here's CNN's Alina Cho.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The camera rolls. From their hidden position, the insurgent snipers are watching their victim. "Go ahead, shoot him in the name of God, " says one. "I am waiting for him to straighten up," says the other. Their target, this American soldier, Private First Class Stephen Tschiderer from Mendon, New York.
What comes next is this and as the snipers chant, "God is great," Private Tschiderer gets back on his feet. With rifle in hand, he takes cover.
Debbie Tschiderer believes it's a miracle her son is alive.
DEBBIE TSCHIDERER, SOLDIER'S MOTHER: The bullet grazed his thumb and because it grazed his thumb, it went in at an angle.
CHO: And never penetrated his bullet proof vest.
S. TSCHIDERER: I kind of opened up my vest and I'm like, woo! All right, no blood, good to go. All right, let's go get them.
CHO: Less than a minute after Tschiderer is shot, his unit takes the offensive, humvees rolling toward them, the snipers realize they are now in danger.
Hurry, hurry! Get out. Says one.
What you cannot see on the tape is the foot chase that follows. Private Tschiderer, fueled by adrenalin, hunts down and catches the man who shot him. He even tends to the sniper's wounds, the man who, moments earlier, tried to kill him.
S. TSCHIDERER: It's part of the job. I'm a medic. He put down his arms, he's no threat. There's no excuse not to.
CHO: A few days later, when Steven told his parents about his close call, they were scared, and relieved. And then he told them about the tape.
D. TSCHIDERER: I said what do you mean there's a video? he goes mom, they taped the whole thing. Why? For training. I wasn't supposed to live. It was for training.
CHO: It took some time before parents John and Debbie finally got the courage to watch.
D. TSCHIDERER It was the sound more than the actual action. And to hear the Iraqis talking about my son, and to have him in their sights. For me, the initial feeling was anger.
CHO: And then?
D. TSCHIDERER: Then I started sobbing hysterically. It just -- it was amazing to see how close, how close it came.
I said Steven, they were laughing? He said no, mom, they were praying. We go into battle, we pray, so do they.
We keep the dialogue up, because we, you know, as you can see, you're back and forth, back and forth.
CHO: The Tschiderers are in constant touch with their son via online instant messages.
D. TSCHIDERER: He's asking for you, dear. Come say hello.
JOHN TSCHIDERER, FATHER: He's leaving in ten minutes to go on patrol.
CHO: How often do you tell him to stay down?
J. TSCHIDERER: All the time.
CHO: These instant communications give the Tschiderer some peace of mind. The photos he sends help, too.
Like this, showing the bruise on his chest. This one showing the sniper's weapon. And this, Steven's damaged flat jacket.
He's due to come home in late September. I asked him how anxious he was. He replied, I'm counting the days. And it's still more than one, so it's too far.
D. TSCHIDERER: We were starting to think that, OK, we can do this. He'll be home soon, and then it all just kind of was put right back into perspective, what these guys go through every single day. And it's hard. It's hard. It's brought it all home.
CHO: Alina Cho, CNN, Mendon, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Remember that tape the next time someone tries to tell you "The Apprentice" is reality television.
Coming up on the program, stem cells and the rift they're causing between the president and his top ally in the Senate. Is it a question of science, or political science. And why do we media folks always ask that?
And later new trouble in a part of the world where the troubles seem to be winding down. A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREENFIELD: Today Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader broke with the White House on federal funding for stem cell research. Why he broke with the White House is the question occupying Washington tonight. When a political leader splits with the president from his own party, that question pretty much is inevitable. Two facts here. One, nobody knows why, except the senator. And two, on difficult matters, matters literally of life and death, even political allies sometimes differ.
Two reports tonight, first CNN's Ed Henry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Following a White House signing ceremony, President Bush sought out Bill Frist. After the majority leader's stunning decision to break with the White House on stem cell research.
FRIST: I believe the president's policy should be modified. We should expand federal funding.
HENRY: The Republican leader threw his weight behind increased taxpayer financing of embryonic stem cell research, defying the president's veto threat. Frist said as a physician, he believes loosening the president's restrictions could help cure diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
FRIST: How we answer these questions today, and whether in the end we get them right, impacts the promise not only of current research, but of future research, as well. It will define us as a civilized and ethical society forever in the eyes of history.
HENRY: Leading conservatives blasted the move on moral grounds.
REP. TOM DELAY, (R-TX) MAJORITY LEADER: I think a candidate that believes in the destruction of life would have very hard time appealing to the vast majority of the Republicans in this party.
HENRY: But it could play well with swing voters, especially after Nancy Reagan put out a statement saying Frist's decision has, quote, "the potential to alleviate so much suffering." A moderate group known as Stem Pack was just about to start running TV ads in the critical state of New Hampshire, chiding Frist for blocking the legislation.
ANNOUNCER: So why is Senator Bill Frist holding up a bipartisan stem cell research bill? Why is he preventing us from being the world's leader in stem cell research?
HENRY: Frist aids insist that science not politics sparked the senator's decision. And he quickly won emotional praise from the bill's Republican sponsor, Arlen Specter, who is battling cancer.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: The change is profound, because the majority leader, if you want to characterize it in terms of giving cover, has given cover to -- to the entire Senate, given cover to the entire House of Representatives. Here is a man who really knows science and who really knows government. So it is a very, very profound change. It's an earthquake.
HENRY: Arlen Specter speaks from personal experience. He's battling cancer. And says this issue is a matter of life and death.
Ed Henry, CNN, Capitol Hill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Now, at this point, you might be saying to yourself, life and death? It does not get that much more important than that. Or you might be a political analyst in which case, the key question, of course, is what does this mean for the 2008 -- that's eight, presidential race. Why? Because that's the only question that ever matters.
This obsession which began about 30 seconds after Ohio went into the red state column last November might seem harmless enough. Like one of those dumb sports arguments, could Ali have beaten Dempsey, but when it comes to presidential politics my friends, premature evaluation is a menace. Fortunately, we've got a cure.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JUDGE WILLIAM REHNQUIST, U.S. SUPREME COURT: I George Walker Bush.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I George Walker Bush.
REHNQUIST: Do solemnly swear.
BUSH: Do solemnly swear.
GREENFIELD: It was little more than six months ago that President Bush was sworn in for his second term, but to judge by the political chatter...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell us about your political future.
GREENFIELD: .. You'd think we're just about ready to choose his successor. John Edwards is in New Hampshire tonight for the third time this year.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Thank you very much.
GREENFIELD: Hillary Clinton's speech to a Democratic group in Columbus this week was covered like a coronation. On the Republican side, we're pointing cameras at what looks like half the GOP Senate caucus.
TIM RUSSERT, HOST, "MEET THE PRESS": The lady to your right would make a good president?
GREENFIELD: If we're not asking the prospective candidates...
RUSSERT: 2008, are you going to run for president?
BILL O'REILLY, HOST, "THE O'REILLY FACTOR": Are you going to run against Hillary? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're running for president?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 2008.
GREENFIELD: We're speculating among ourselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John McCain.
RUSSERT: Rudy Giuliani.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tom Vilsack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST, "HARDBALL": Can you imagine First Gentleman Bill Clinton roaming around the East Wing?
GREENFIELD: And it's not just the overwrought 24-hour-news channels. "C-Span," that ultra-lowkey haven for policy wanks, has already begun airing a "Road to the White House 2008" feature, covering the speeches...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Manchester.
GREENFIELD: Handshakes and footsteps of every barely-conceivable candidate. As for the print press? Well, it's never too early to start polling, not with the Iowa caucuses a mere 129 weeks away -- right?
No! Of course it's not right. It's a product of people with way too much time on their hands and of news organizations with way too much time to fill and who know that talk is cheap, especially mindless speculation about events years down the road.
Moreover, there's a case to be made that this gas-baggery poses a clear and present danger. You know Gresham's law that teaches that bad money drives out good? Well, never mind. The point is, is that there's a Gresham's law of TV talk: Dumb conversation drives out smart conversation.
With genuinely big questions to talk about: Can democracy grow around the world? Is America's economy threatened by debt? Will Brad and Angelina get married? The focus on 2008 is a luxury we simply can't afford.
So, here's what has to happen: The Federal Communications Commission should rule any broadcast station or network airing such talk this soon should be stripped of its licenses and while the FCC can't govern cable networks, local communities can say to cable operators: If you persist in transmitting such fare, you will lose your franchise in our city or county or town.
As far as newspapers and magazines go, offenders should forfeit their second-class mailing privileges and as for online magazines and bloggers, well, we're working' on it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Sure some knit-pickers will howl about First Amendment this and free speech that, but as a great Supreme Court justice once said, "free speech does not mean the right to cry fire in a crowded theater," especially if that theater won't even open for two-and-a-half years. I feel better now.
Up next: That ring that comes in the night, right around supper time. Telemarketers pushing your government to make their job easier.
And later: The shuttle and beyond. But these days, what is beyond and why aren't we there yet? We'll ask John Glenn. From here on planet Earth, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREENFIELD: The punchline used to go like this, "we're from the government and we're here to help you." Now, the new version, "we're telemarketers and we're trying to protect your privacy." They're right in there lobbying for you, really, they are, sort of. And because your viewership is very important to us, this report from CNN's Valerie Morris may be monitored for quality-control purposes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENDAN TOBIN, TELEMARKETING VICTIM: Hello?
VALERIE MORRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Brendan Tobin, telemarketing calls crossed the line from nuisance to genuine pain.
TOBIN: Six months after my father died, I was at my mother's house and the phone rang in a half-an-hour, half-a-dozen times. The first five people were telemarketers. The sixth call I pick it up, "Is Jim there?" No, he's not. "Well, when's he coming back?" He's not, he's dead. It was one of my father's friends who had gone away for the winter and didn't know about it and I felt terrible.
MORRIS: Tobin and others plagued by such calls voiced their outrage and last week, the Direct Marketing Association or DMA, came up with a solution, the deceased do not contact list.
Now anyone can stop calls to their deceased family members for a dollar fee. The DMA, which declined to appear on camera, told us the fee "merely is a way to verify that the registrant is who they say they are and provide us with a record of who reported the death."
(on camera): But as consumers make strides to remove their dearly departed from calling lists, they may soon be hit with a new rash of calls.
(voice-over): Telemarketers are lobbying the FCC to enforce existing federal rules, but in some cases, that would override tougher state laws, and provide weaker protections. The states with the toughest laws are New Jersey, Indiana, Florida, Wisconsin and North Dakota.
CHRIS HOOFNAGLE, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFO. CTR. These five states have more stringent anti-telemarketing laws and so as a result, people in the whole nation are given a buffer of some protection from telemarketers who would use very invasive ways to call people.
MORRIS: But enforcing the federal rules would allow pre-recorded computerized calls to interrupt the dinner hour in Florida again and in New Jersey, a company you stopped doing business with would be able to keep calling you for up to a year-and-a-half. Telemarketers say the federal rules will make things better for you and them.
TIM SEARCY, AMERICAN TELESERVICES ASSOC.: One set of rules is definitely the way that the organizations are going to be able to be compliant and consumers are going to have one consistent means by which they can expect to be treated.
MORRIS: The FCC is months away from a final decision. Brendan Tobin is relieved he and his family aren't reminded of his father's death by telemarketers, but around their kitchen table in New Jersey, the prospect of more phone calls has his family wanting to leave their phone off the hook.
TOBIN: We have enough other things to worry about in the country right now. We don't need to make it easier on the people that annoy us.
MORRIS: Valerie Morris, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: What you do is you tell them, "I can't wait to sign up. I'm going to get my credit card." Put them on hold for an hour.
Up next, a check of the headlines and a check on the shuttle. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREENFIELD: In a moment, how goes it with the space shuttle.
But first, it's about a quarter to the hour, time for other headlines from Erica Hill at Headline News -- Erica.
HILL: Thanks again, Jeff.
We begin in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, where the United States is temporarily closing its consulate. That decision comes after a shootout in which assailants used machine guns, grenades and even a rocket launcher to attack a home in the border city. The consulate will shut down for a week beginning on Monday.
And in Kashmir suspected Islamic rebels hurled grenades at a police chief on a busy street in Srinagar. A gun fight ensued, killing two Indian soldiers, wounding at least 15 other people. That attack came hours after suspected militants raided a remote village elsewhere in a region where they separated residents by religion, then killed five Hindus by slitting their throats.
Not the most uplifting story with to leave you. But that's all we have for you here at Headlines right now. Jeff, have a great weekend.
GREENFIELD: Thank you, Erica.
In a moment, a conversation with John Glenn about how cramped space seems to be these days. And first, an example of it. With all that was hoped for with Discovery's return to space, the mission is boiling down to this, damage control. Here is CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the astronauts in space and for the shuttle team on the ground, Friday was clearly a much better day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to finish up this procedure and then step straight into the end grapple (ph).
ZARRELLA: A system of cameras and lasers attached to the shuttle's robotic arm was maneuvered beneath Discovery, looking for any damage to the sensitive heat resistant tiles. After three hours of eyeballing the belling, little, if anything showed up that worried mission managers.
JOHN SHANNON, FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANAGER: The report that we got back, was that there were 25 small dings, no major dings. And you would compare that to about almost 150 that we had on average for other flights.
ZARRELLA: It was something to smile about. The pictures of the external tank shedding potentially catastrophic debris during liftoff gave pause for concern.
EILEEN COLLINS, SHUTTLE COMMANDER: We were actually quite surprised to hear that we had large pieces of debris fall off the external tank. It wasn't what we had expected.
ZARRELLA: Mission managers the clean inspection all but guaranteed Discovery would soon be deemed in excellent shape for a return to Earth at the end of the mission, a mission that could be extended by a day with a possibility that the external tank debris issue might cause a lengthy fleet grounded, an extra day in space now, wouldn't hurt.
(on camera): The space agency was concern about one gouged tile near the nose wheel. But now it appears that the gouge in that tile is only about a third of an inch deep and not significant.
Tomorrow, a decision will also be made on whether to keep Discovery in orbit an additional day. By all indications, the go ahead for that additional day will be granted.
John Zarrella, CNN, at the Johnson Spaceflight Center in Texas. (END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: And also tomorrow, astronauts will begin the first of three space walks devoted to testing the tile repair kits for missions in the future if there are any.
Now, that planet they discovered today or didn't -- when I was a kid, thanks to Flash Gordon and Captain Video and Buzz Corey (ph) and Tom Corbitt Space Cadet, I assumed by now we'd be traveling to that kind of planet. But it has been thirty years after people last set foot on the moon. And even the space shuttle has a question mark over the future.
We talked about this earlier with the first American to orbit the Earth, former Senator John Glenn. And we asked him if, back in 1962, this was the kind of future he'd imagined.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: Senator, back in 1962 when you'd finished orbiting the Earth, if someone asked you where we'd be in space five years into the new millennium, what would you have said?
JOHN GLENN, FIRST AMERICAN TO ORBIT EARTH: Oh, I don't think it was all that predictable back then. You know, who could have thought back in Mercury days when we started that out, it was mainly fueled by competition with the Soviets, of course, back at that time, it was part of the cold war and we looked at it that way.
And we came out of that. And then President Kennedy, of course, set a goal of going to the moon, which was still part of outdoing the Soviets who had claimed technical superiority to us and were taking kids from all over the world, in training them in Moscow and sending them back.
We didn't know whether the wave of communism at that time was going to be the wave of the future in this world or not. It was that kind of a doubt.
And so there was that impetus back in those days. And beyond the moon, however, I probably would have thought that we'd have gone back to the moon by this time, maybe, and set up a base on the moon to be more researched. And with the goal of sometime going on to mars, whether it would have been on the same schedule we have outlined right now or not I would rather doubt, because that's a long, long trip. And we need to learn a lot before we go there.
GREENFIELD: Well John, that's an interesting point, because I think all of us had the theory our ancestors conquered the seas, the oceans hundreds of years ago, we conquered the skies at the start of the 20th century. So surely we'd be somewhere between the asteroid belt and the outer planets by now.
Was that just -- for those of us who grew up with Tom Corbitt and Captain Video, was that always a misleading notion on how tricky this would be? GLENN: Well, I think we're dealing with something that's the most complicating voids that people have tried to make anywhere, any time. In each time. And of course, in each time period in history people are limited by their own technical capabilities.
But this machine we're dealing with now is the most complicated machine ever put together by humankind. Someone estimated we have 2.5 million parts in this thing. And somebody else said yes, and all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract, too.
But, you know -- so you want to make sure that the thing works right and that's what we're up against now. And the mission up there now, of course, with surveying the tiles earlier today. And making sure there are no breaks in there that would a problem when they came back in here at the end of their mission.
But Steve Robinson up there is going to go out. He's a good friend of ours. Steve is going to go out on the first of his three space walks tomorrow to inspect things also. And that will add another level of security to it of their feelings also.
GREENFIELD: Was part of the pull-back just a simple matter of cost?
GLENN: Part of it's cost, yes. If we made a project to go, say go to the moon and mars and we didn't have any time -- or didn't have any dollar limits, pretty much like we had during Apollo days when Neil Armstrong and Buzz were getting ready to go to the moon, if we didn't have any constraints on money, why it would be a different project.
But we do have constraints on money. We have the greatest debts we've ever had in the history of this country and so cost is a factor. But I also think it's important we keep going with this.
You know, to be philosophical for a couple of seconds here, our country was built on two things, I think. One was basic education, where we have the best educated citizenry in the world. We find ourselves under competition now, other nations out compete us, particularly in math and science. And the second element was research.
We did more research than any nation in the history of the world. We're the ones who learned the new things first, whether in physical exploration, macroexploration or microexploration in the laboratories. And this is sort of -- space to me is sort of in the forefront of that kind of thinking that you want to keep on doing research so we stay ahead of other nations in the world. And I think that's very important.
GREENFIELD: Senator, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, I want to ask you bluntly, is the shuttle worth saving as a program? We'll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GREENFIELD: Continuing our conversation with former senator and former astronaut John Glenn.
Senator, there are people who describe the shuttle as a program, as a classic government boondoggle. We have got a shuttle that goes to the space station, and the space station exists to have a place for the shuttle to go to. If that mission were to end, apart from the people who would be out of work, do we lose anything in terms of exploration?
GLENN: Well, it's not just people out of work. I think it's whether -- the station to me is well worth finishing. See, the station right now is only about two-thirds built. So it doesn't -- it hasn't really gotten to its research return yet that benefits everybody right here on Earth, and that's the main reason we have that program.
We've spent somewhere of $55 to $60 billion. Our allies in this, the 15 nations working with us, have spent $12 or $15, and so we have a huge investment in this.
It was supposed to provide the most unique laboratory ever built for long-term research. And we had scientists and companies all lined up in the queue to do research on the station. And that's the reason I think it's very important we have the shuttle operating to go ahead and complete that. It's the only vehicle we have that can complete that construction and bring the shuttle around to performing its mission of doing basic research.
So far, we've only had two people up there usually, and they spend most of their time taking care of the systems on the station. They can't do much research.
Once we get it built, there will be a crew of six up there on a permanent basis, and then we can do really basic research, with our allies, things that benefit people right here on Earth. And that's the reason I think it's very, very important to finish out the station, and that's the importance of the shuttle.
The current plan is to end the shuttle at 2010. I sort of question that, as to whether you want to make that hard and fast, but they are planning that to save some money, to apply to the president's vision, as it's called, to go to the moon and on to Mars.
But we have to complete the station, I think, to complete -- to keep faith with our allies and our scientists here on Earth, who want to do research on the station.
GREENFIELD: You got philosophical a minute ago. I'd like you to do it again. For those of us who are science fiction buffs, when we're brought back to Earth, so to speak, by the physical realities of just how far some of these places are, do you think centuries or maybe even millennia from now, the scientists of the future will have figured out where the worm holes are, how to go to warp speed? Do you think someday man will ever really get to these distant galaxies, or is that just simply, in your point of view, a pipe dream?
GLENN: No, I think that sometime we will. How we'll do that, I don't know. As you say, go at warp speed, go at -- where we somehow find that the speed of light is no longer the limit; we don't see that that's a -- we can't see that we can go beyond the speed of light now or even close to the speed of light, according to Einstein's theories, which so far have proven pretty true. And maybe that will come sometime, I don't know.
But will we visit other places? Of course. Back when I was a kid, could I have ever envisioned anybody either going into space or going to the moon -- that was beyond anybody's conception at that time. And so, these more distant places will come in their own time.
GREENFIELD: I have a feeling you may be on one of those missions, Senator, given your track record.
GLENN: I'd like to. I'd like to.
GREENFIELD: Thank you for joining us on this Friday.
GLENN: Thank you, Jeff. Good to talk to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: When we return, the president tells the press, we're number one, or something like that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. MARK SCHWEIKER, PENNSYLVANIA: All nine are alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first miner has been pulled from the mine. His name is Randy Fogle.
RANDY FOGLE: That's just awesome, to know that you can see another sunrise or have another day with your family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Number two, miner at 1:15 a.m., Harry Mayhugh.
HARRY BLAINE MAYHUGH: There still isn't a day that goes by that you don't think of what happened, what could have happened. Just your outlook on life is a lot different.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ninth and final miner.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His name is Mark Popernack.
MARK POPERNACK: When I first got out of the mine, I wouldn't even step on an ant when I was walking on the sidewalk, because that was something that God created, and that was life, and I didn't want to take that away.
MAYHUGH: No, I haven't worked in the mines ever since the incident. FOGLE: I stayed out of the mines for six months after the accident, and then I went back to work, and that's what I've been doing ever since. So I work underground all the time.
POPERNACK: When Randy went back to the mines, I was going to go back also, and that night, my oldest son, Lucas, he had nightmares about it, and I just decided right then that I wasn't going to go back underground, because it affected my kids so much.
MAYHUGH: There's a lot of technology and a lot of manpower with all the people working up there, but there had to be a higher power, I do believe.
POPERNACK: Life is precious. And we got a second chance at it, and we don't forget it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREENFIELD: A tired phrase, but a true one: Some pictures are worth a thousand words. Others communicate maybe two we can think of. We'll let you decide.
After a meeting on Capitol Hill this week with House Republicans, President Bush greeted the press with a wave of his finger, but which finger? The White House says it was thumbs up. Or maybe he was simply saying that we live in a digital age.
That's NEWSNIGHT for tonight. For all of us, or at least the great majority of us at CNN, have a great weekend. Come on back Monday. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.
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