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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

BTK Killer Sentencing Hearing Began Today; Leaked Information Shows Brazilian Shot On London Underground Acting Normally; Cindy Sheehan Continues Anti-War Crusade

Aired August 17, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We're just going to complete the sentence you just started, to be perfectly honest.
BOB COSTAS, GUEST HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: An hour-long sentence to be continued.

BROWN: Well, we'll spend a little less than that, but it's good to see you. Come by and say hi.

COSTAS: All right. Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Bob.

We're struck tonight by how closely monsters -- we were just talking about monsters -- resemble not just men but such ordinary men. In a moment, more on the man we've been talking about most of the night here, a man who once expressed the kind of disappointment reserved for a bad day at the office at having to shoot someone.

Shooting, he said, wasn't his core competence. Strangling was. And to improve, he said, he had to have an exercise routine.

This is the ordinary, yet unspeakable world of Dennis Rader, the serial killer known as BTK, laid out by police at a sentencing hearing which began today in Wichita. He will almost certainly get the maximum, 175 years in prison.

The death penalty does not apply because of when the killings took place, though many believe he deserves it. Nothing today is likely to have changed any minds.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM RELPH, WICHITA POLICE: This case holds a special place for him because he had complete control. And, in fact, he termed it as one of his more enjoyable kills.

BROWN (voice-over): Dennis Rader listened impassively to hours of descriptions of his 17-year horror. If he felt something, you could not tell.

RELPH: ... saw that as an opportunity. And at that time, he whispered in her ear and he told her that he was BTK. He said that he was a really bad guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then what happened?

RELPH: He said at that time she started to squirm, and that's when he really -- and, again, he would demonstrate, because he had to hold the buckle down with one hand -- and at that time, he demonstrated that he would have to really pull on the belt at that point.

BROWN: The murder of Nancy Fox on December 8, 1977, was one of several described. So was the killing of Shirley Vian, whose children were shut in the bathroom while she was murdered.

DANA GOUGE, BTK TASK FORCE: At one point, the children were able to force the door partially open and see what he was doing to their mother.

BROWN: It was all so matter-of-fact, if serial murder can ever be described that way.

LARRY THOMAS, KANSAS SPECIAL AGENT: He did state that it was the first time that he had attempted to strangle people, as opposed to dogs and cats, and that he was surprised at how much pressure it took and how hard it was to do.

BROWN: Rader's first victims were the Otero family, Joseph, Julie, and their children, 11-year-old Josephine and 9-year-old Joe. After killing everyone else in the family, Rader led Josephine into the basement, where she was hanged from a sewer pipe.

Special agent Larry Thomas described what followed.

THOMAS: And he said he had the rope prepared. As he walked her over toward that position, he first asked for a camera, because he wanted to take a picture. And she responded that she did not have a camera. She then asked, "What's going to happen to me?" And he told her that she would soon be in heaven with the others.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he told this little girl he was going to kill her?

THOMAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And before he does that, he asked for a camera so he can take a picture?

THOMAS: Yes.

BROWN: The three surviving Otero children heard it all today, saw it all.

CARMINE OTERO, SURVIVING FAMILY MEMBER: They had told us that we were going to be seeing a lot of things that weren't going to be easy. So I looked at -- I saw everything. But I just figured, you know, one glance was enough to keep you in your mind for the next 30 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of his murders were what? CLINT SNYDER, WICHITA POLICE DETECTIVE: Sexual. He called it sexual overt. He said that, basically, all of these people were going to die one of three ways. First, they were going to be bound. Then, they would either be strangled, suffocated or hung.

BROWN: There was, of course, a sexual side to this. And it, too, was detailed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What caused him to get sexually excited?

RELPH: It was usually the very visual. It was usually the accomplishment of the event, not during the event itself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So at the point when the victim was expiring or has expired, that he would then masturbate or ejaculate, and that was the end of the episode for him.

BROWN: It is a mistake to search for logic here. Take Mr. Rader's concern about the murder of Marine Hedge.

SGT. TOM LEE, SEDGWICK CITY, SHERIFF: He told me it was really bad for a guy to knock one of the neighbors off. That's not good for a serial killer, because you don't want to kill in your own habitat. It's not a good sign. It's not good serial business, serial killer business.

BROWN: Rader sent this doll as a taunt to the media after he killed Nancy Fox. He called them doll-grams.

RELPH: And he got quite a bit of excitement out of reading about himself. He tied that into the current situation that he was on a media frenzy.

BROWN: For Rader, though, the ultimate thrill was in the kill itself.

THOMAS: He said he was excited. It was an exciting thing for him, sexually exciting.

BROWN: You could, we suppose, describe today in lots of ways, but perhaps none better than the description by the Otero survivors. It was something that had to be done.

CHARLIE OTERO, SURVIVING FAMILY MEMBER: Things like the things we saw today, of what occurred to our family, just shouldn't have to be seen by anybody. I mean, it's just a culmination of a very evil situation.

And, like my sister said, we had to do it to get it behind us. And I'm just glad that it's there, and I don't have to imagine what went down. I know what went down now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: This story, this BTK story, is, in some respects, a story about something that lives inside us, even if, thankfully for most of us, these things never come out. People, for better or worse, have an instinct to kill. Also, an impulse to survive.

Here's CNN's David Mattingly.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No one in the courtroom was more familiar with the horror and the violence than Kevin Bright, who, on April 4, 1974, just 19 years old and 115 pounds, desperately fought for his sister, Kathryn's, life and his own, face- to-face with a young Dennis Rader.

KEVIN BRIGHT, SURVIVED BTK KILLER: I surprised him, you know? He was expecting to strangle me like he did the other people. And then I broke loose and jumped up.

You know, he went for his gun. And, you know, I just focused on that gun, because I knew he was going to shoot me. And I grabbed a hold of it, and pulled it into his stomach, and caught my hand on the trigger, and pulled the trigger twice. And it didn't go off. And then he, you know, jerked it away from me.

MATTINGLY: Bright was shot in the forehead, but he continued to fight until Rader shot him a second time in the face. Rader then proceeded to strangle the life out of 21-year-old Kathryn, who fought back, as well.

SNYDER: He said that he had to strike her around the head area, trying to control her. And at the same time, he was trying to strangle her with a piece of cloth that he had found inside the residence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a quote behind you. Do you recall him making this quote?

SNYDER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did he describe how Kathryn Bright fought?

SNYDER: "She fought like a hell cat."

MATTINGLY: Seriously wounded, Kevin Bright struggled to stay alert and managed to escape out the front door.

(on-screen): How is it possible for someone to be shot in the head, twice, at close range, and still be able to run outside like that?

BRIGHT: I don't know. By the grace of God, I was able to, you know, regain -- I mean, I kept my consciousness. And I don't know if it's adrenaline or what, but I was able to get up and get out.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Having lost control, Rader made his escape, as well, but not before stabbing Katherine 11 times. She was still alive when the first officer arrived. SNYDER: When he came inside, Katherine was laying on the floor in the living room, facedown in a pool of her own blood, clutching a telephone in her hand.

MATTINGLY: Katherine Bright died a short time later. For months, Kevin says he struggled with guilt for being unable to save his sister. And for years, he was consumed with anger. Today, the soft-spoken 50-year-old still has some lingering problems and a question that just won't go away.

BRIGHT: Why? I mean, I have questions, you know? How somebody could be so evil.

MATTINGLY: Police say Rader described the murder of Katherine Bright in a seven-page document titled "Project Lights Out." He wrote of a plan he called the "afterlife concept of victim," in which he described sexual fantasies he intended to act out with her after his own death.

(on-screen): Is he the man that you remember that day?

BRIGHT: Yes. He still wanted to be in control. He's still sure of himself. I'm sure they're going to try to analyze him, you know, see what made him tick. But I just think he's -- Satan is controlling him.

MATTINGLY: David Mattingly, CNN, Wichita, Kansas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There are serial killers who court publicity and there are others who don't. Dennis Rader was the first kind.

But as years went by, and the killings went on, the press kept some of what it knew from the public. Now, along with good reasons for holding back, there are questions about the holding back. Here's CNN Jonathan Freed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In March of 2004, Hurst Laviana, a reporter with "The Wichita Eagle," first examined the letters sent to the newspaper. A letter that signaled the reemergence after 25 years of Wichita's notorious serial killer, the BTK Strangler.

The killer was known for sending cryptic notes to the news media. And for 30 years, part of the investigation was a give-and-take with police, who urged journalists not to report certain details, concerned it could compromise the case.

For reporters, it was a conflict between public safety and the public's right to know. An example: Aside from the BTK signature, the letters sent to "The Eagle" held other possible clues.

HURST LAVIANA, "WICHITA EAGLE" REPORTER: Three pictures. They looked like crime scene photographs. There was a driver's license.

FREED: That license belonged to a 1986 murder victim, an unsolved case. And there was also what appeared to be a code across the top of the page. Police asked Laviana to reveal as little as possible, especially the name on the license.

LAVIANA: It took much less than a second to decide. I knew that there was no way I was going to give up the driver's license. That was a given. As for the signature and the letters and numbers, insignificant compared to the fact that we had the identity of the eighth victim.

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV ANCHOR: I think, in hindsight, there are probably things that we could have released, for example...

FREED: Larry Hatteberg's covered the BTK story from the start at KAKE-TV. Like the newspaper, the station cooperated with police. The killer sent them a word puzzle in May 2004, a puzzle released only after the arrest of Dennis Rader. Many now believe it contains clues, like Rader's name.

HATTEBERG: Once the puzzle was released, you had 350,000 people out there who were fascinated with this puzzle. And everybody saw something different in this puzzle. One guy wrote to me and said he was a computer programmer and he found 170 names, and phone numbers, and addresses in this. Did the police have that? We don't know.

RALPH LAMUNYON, FMR. WICHITA POLICE CHIEF: We're trying to get this guy to communicate with us, sending us written communication, not sending us more bodies.

FREED: Richard Lamunyon was Wichita's police chief in the 1970s, when the killer coined his own now infamous nickname.

LAMUNYON: BTK stands for "Bind, Torture and Kill."

FREED: Although Lamunyon tried to control the flow of information back then, he now thinks it probably didn't make a difference. It didn't prevent the killer from striking again.

LAMUNYON: I really don't think now, whether we did or didn't do at that particular time, was that important to him. I think he had his agenda. He was still figuring out who he was going to do, in terms of killing someone.

FREED: Because so much had been at stake, Laviana feels justified in having cooperated with police.

LAVIANA: I think we probably were inclined to bend over backward, more than we would in any other kind of case.

FREED: With Rader's sentencing hearing under way, many of the clues police were desperate to keep quiet are now out in the open, including clues to how, when and who Rader murdered.

Jonathan Freed, CNN, Wichita, Kansas. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In truth, we don't, on the program, do this sort of story much. But there has been from the beginning something just oddly compelling and bizarre, and clearly sick, about this whole thing in Wichita, for a long time.

In a moment, a crime story again, a Hollywood murder mystery.

But first, at about a quarter past the hour, time for some of the other stories that made news on this day. Erica Hill is with us from Atlanta.

Good evening, Ms. Hill.

ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, Aaron. Good evening to you.

We start off with news from Iraq. The deadliest day in weeks for people in Baghdad, after three car bombs carefully targeted to kill Iraqi civilians.

The first at a downtown bus station during morning rush hour. The second hit outside a nearby police station, as police rushed out toward that bus station. And the third outside the hospital just as the injured arrived. The toll, more than 40 dead, more than 80 injured. Men used bolt cutters to cut some of the bodies out of barbed wire security fences.

Serbian police have arrested a suspect in the 2004 Spanish train bombing. Police picked him up Abdelmajid Bouchar on a train 200 miles from Belgrade. The attacks on the Madrid commuter trains killed 191 people and wounded more than 1,500.

It may have started as a Los Angeles street gang. Now, the FBI is putting them on an international most-wanted list. The gang known as MS-13 has grown into really a small army. U.S. authorities estimate the gang has 10,000 members stretching from California to New York. The FBI is working with law enforcement officials from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras to control the gang.

Supreme Court nominee John Roberts has already won one vote, that is. A special committee of the American Bar Association voted unanimously to give Judge Roberts a well-qualified rating. The Senate Judiciary Committee will be in confirmation hearings on the nomination in the first week of September, Aaron. So coming up before we know it.

BROWN: Yes, well, that -- I mean, nothing about Judge Roberts, but it is coming up before we know it. It can take its time. I'm not ready to give into summer yet. Thank you. We'll talk to you in half an hour.

Much more ahead on the program tonight, starting with a tangled tale of a minor celebrity in a major crime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN (voice-over): A children's show, a wealthy couple, a yacht, and John F. Kennedy. Somehow, the pieces add up to murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want justice to prevail, and you know, their names' redeemed.

BROWN: Also tonight, he was on the subway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I then pushed him back on to the seat where he'd previously been sitting.

BROWN: He did not run. He was not armed. And he did not struggle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I then heard a gunshot, very close to my left ear, and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage.

BROWN: He wasn't a terrorist. So why did police in London shoot him? The story then, the story now.

And the deepening mystery of Flight 522. What did the pilot say? When did he say it?

And later, a business with snap, crackle and pop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't understand how people can have Rice Krispies and Pop Rocks, because that's just too much snap, crackle, and popping for me.

BROWN: You can, if you're on the rise. Breakfast served anytime, because this is NEWSNIGHT.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: At the end of the day, murder is always murder. But fair to say, murder in Southern California is frequently that and something more, at least in the part of southern California where greed, ambition and Hollywood intersect. So from Newport Beach tonight, murder and Dan Simon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People of the state of California...

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Skylar Deleon was a child actor, he had a small role on the wildly-popular show "The Power Rangers." Now 26, Deleon is accused of carrying out a murder plot against a married couple to get their boat and life savings.

Also charged, Deleon's wife, Jennifer, and two male suspects, including an alleged gang member named John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and former jailed guard Alonzo Machain. All the defendants have pleated not guilty. SGT. STEVE SCHULMAN, NEWPORT BEACH POLICE: We believe this was a murder for the purpose of financial gain.

SIMON: Newport Beach authorities say Deleon masterminded the scheme, in which he pretended to be interested in buying Tom and Jackie Hawks' $465,000 yacht. But then, while taking a test run in November of last year, police say Deleon and his male accomplices overpowered the couple, then forced them to sign power of attorney for their boat and assets.

Bound and gagged, the Hawks were then allegedly tied to an anchor, and, while still alive, dropped overboard. Their bodies have never been found.

RYAN HAWKS, SON OF MURDERED PARENTS: I want justice. I want the truth.

SIMON: Their Hawks' son, Ryan, says his parents were trusting.

HAWKS: They were the happiest couple on Earth. They did more as a couple in one year than most couples do in 10.

SIMON: Police got suspicious a few days later, when Deleon and his wife tried unsuccessfully to access the Hawks' bank accounts in Arizona. The Hawks had lived on their yacht full-time. They ha named it "Well Deserved." Those who knew them say what happened to them was anything but deserved.

Dan Simon, for CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In other news tonight, families have already begun to bury the victims from the Boeing 737 that crashed north of Athens in Greece, killing all 121 people on board. But investigators are still combing the wreckage, looking for answers and finding still more questions.

CNN's Andrea Sanke reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA SANKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dozens of passengers were alive when the plane crashed, including a 5-year-old boy. Coroners say they found soot in his lungs, proof that he was breathing after Helios Flight 522 collided with the hillside.

But whether the passengers were conscious on impact is still not known. Aviation analysts are baffled as to how a drop in cabin pressure could have led to a fatal crash.

KIEREN DALEY, AIR TRANSPORT INTELLIGENCE: Because we know for a fact that the passenger cabin emergency oxygen system did deploy, then that means that the onboard sensor on the airplane knew that the airplane had depressurized. Well, that same system alerts the cockpit crew to what's happened. And then they have a very strict drill to follow, involving putting on the oxygen masks and then flying the airplane, which, on the face of it, they don't seem to have followed. So that's the fundamental mystery.

SANKE: Scattered pieces of the puzzle have led investigators in several directions, even to an arrest. Word that a text-message was sent from on board, claiming the pilot had turned blue and passengers were freezing, was determined to be a hoax. The alleged recipient has since been convicted of filing a false report.

And now the airline confirms what a former chief mechanic has told investigators, that a flight in December lost cabin pressure but did not crash, after a door on the Boeing 737 was improperly sealed. Meanwhile, Greece is denying reports claiming Turkish aviation authorities detected an emergency code warning from Flight 522, after Greek officials say they lost all communication with the pilots.

DALEY: It's the one indication that the pilot knew that he had an emergency on his hands at some stage. He never said that verbally. But that transponder code has to be physically selected by the pilot. So that will be the single confirmation that the captain knew that there was a serious problem.

SANKE: The flight data recorder is now being decoded in Paris.

Andrea Sanke, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And on the program tonight, how the evacuation is going in Gaza. We'll look at the job still left to do.

Also tonight, the fight against terrorism and the death of an innocent man. Where did London police go wrong? How is their story evolving? We take a break first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On the tragic roster of victims of London's terrorist bombings this summer, a young Brazilian immigrant's death has been especially poignant. He was not killed in the explosions, but by the explosions' immediate after-effects, shot by the British police as a suspected terrorist when the city was still panicked and in shock.

The investigation into his death has revealed what certainly appears to be police bungling and has raised a tough question: Why shoot a man who witnesses say was already restrained? From London tonight, CNN's Walter Rodgers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): It now appears the London police operation that led to the wrongful killing last month of this innocent Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes, was badly bungled, according to leaked documents from the investigation.

De Menezes' killing by plain-clothes cops on this subway car took place in an atmosphere of terror and fear, just one day after a second Islamist bombing campaign misfired. Believe at the time they had cornered a bombing suspect, Scotland Yard's chief, Sir Ian Blair, then reported...

COMMISSIONER IAN BLAIR, METROPOLITAN POLICE: The information I have available is this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation.

RODGERS: Police now admit de Menezes died because officers misidentified him. They were looking for this man, Ethiopian-born Osman Hussain. Instead, they followed and killed de Menezes, a Brazilian electrician.

Police had staked out this south London apartment thinking one of the suspected bombers lived here. Right address, wrong man. The first mistake, according to documents leaked to Britain's Independent Television News, the officer assigned to surveillance was uncertain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I should point out that as I observed this male exited the block, I was in the process of relieving myself."

RODGERS: Shortly afterwards, as the innocent man approached this subway station, someone in the police by now wrongfully identified him as the bombing suspect.

BLAIR: As I understand the situation, the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions.

RODGERS: But according to information given to Britain's Independent Television News, there was no challenge, nor instructions. Much of the early information that he de Menezes leapt over a ticket gate, that he wore a suspicious, bulky jacket, and that he stumbled into a subway car was simply wrong, according to the closed-circuit TV images cited in the ITV documents.

De Menezes was seen to behave normally. He did run to catch the train, like other commuters. But he took a seat like a normal passenger.

Also on that train, police surveillance officers, code named Hotel, having followed de Menezes from the street above, according to ITV's documents. Then, a police firearms team arrives on the platform. Aboard the train, an officer shouts, "He's here," according to ITV's account.

Indeed, the initial investigation findings obtained by ITV now show that at least one officer said, "He had already restrained de Menezes before he was killed."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat, where he had previously been sitting."

RODGERS: Indeed, fire arms officers only saw the suspect seconds before he de Menezes was shot seven times in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I then heard a gunshot, very close to my left ear. And was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage.

RODGERS: After these revelations, calls for the resignation of the chief of Scotland Yard from de Menezes attorney.

HARRIET WISTRIC, DE MENEZES FAMILY ATTORNEY: Certainly, we need to look at the whole chain of command.

RODGERS: De Menezes family released a statement lamenting, quote, "Jean was an innocent man shot in cold blood."

(on camera): Determing how that happened is now the responsibility of the Independent Police Complaints Commission. But I.T.V. has also reported that metropolitan police originally tried to keep control of the investigation, an effort that was rejected by the British government.

That Independent Police Complaints Commission said it would not speculate on or release partial information on its investigations, adding others should not do so, either.

(voice-over): Still, at the heart of this case, questions about the police inclination to shoot to kill a terrorist suspect.

IAN BLAIR, METROPOLITAN POLICE COMMISSIONER: You have to consider what would have happened if these officers had not shot and that man had been a suicide bomber.

RODGERS: For police, a terrible choice. But in the end, the officers became judge, jury and executioner.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: What did we know? When did we know it? To paraphrase that classic question. Did we know the year before 9/11 that one of the hijackers was a terrorist threat? That he had ties with al Qaeda? And that he was here in the United States? A former army intelligence officer says he did know that and we did know that. He's been saying that as an unnamed source for a while now. He says it tonight on the record. On the "Security Watch," CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over: Army Lieutenant Conditional Anthony Schaffer has gone public with his charge, that "Able Danger," a military intelligence project he worked with in 2000, identified Mohammed Atta, even pulled up his picture along with three other 9/11 hijackers, as possible al Qaeda members. LT. COL. ANTHONY SHAFFER, U.S. ARMY: We found the identities of four of the 9/11 hijackers, prior to 9/11. And that information was obtained through open source databases.

ENSOR: Shaffer says his unit linked Atta to al Qaeda leaders, but would not provide any specifics. As what he did with the information he had...

SHAFFER: We attempted to, first off, use it operationally and the lawyers said you cannot do that. They're considered U.S. persons. Therefore, at that point in time, we made a determination as a team, we should move this information to the FBI.

ENSOR: But he says, beginning in September 2000, three meetings he set up with the FBI, were each cancelled by military lawyers, because Atta and the others were in the U.S. legally and had no criminal records.

Pentagon sources say a top official there is looking into the matter, after his meeting with Shaffer, who has put on administrative leave with pay after questions were raised about his expenses. His security clearances have also been revoked.

Shaffer also says he remembers telling then-9/11 commission staff, in a meeting in Afghanistan about Atta, and what the intelligence unit found back in 2000. And he was surprised that it did not show up in the commission's report.

SHAFFER: I'm quotting how I remember saying it, "we found -- as part of the data run we found, two of the three cells which conducted 9/11 attacks to include Atta.

ENSOR: But Shaffer's credibility has come under some question. Since the former 9/11 commissioner staff said a staff memo does not record any mention of Mohammed Atta or any of the other future hijackers. Intelligence veterans say if Shaffer is right, then assigning blame for dropping the ball back in 2000, depends partly on how those who had the information presented it to superiors.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, FORMER DEPTUY CIA DIRECTOR: What someone has to find out is whether this information was presented in a crisp and compelling way, or whether it was simply tossed in with a stack of papers and a stack of reports, literally hundreds and thousands that cross the desks of people in Washington every day. And could have gotten lost in that shuffle.

ENSOR: The Patriot Act signed by the president after 9/11, targeted much of the problem that Shaffer's allegations highlight, by requiring intelligence and law enforcement forcement to share information no matter who it's about.

But Shaffer says he has become a whistle-blower because there is still too much caution among bureaucrats about trying new tactics against terrorists. He wants to shake that up.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come on the program, the protest in Crawford, Texas, and the protesters at the center of it.

And later, the governor and the law and his trouble with the law. A break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It occurred to us today that it's possible, despite the screens we show almost every night, it's very possibly that of the 1850 young Americans who died in Iraq, the only name you know is that of Casey Sheehan, Cindy Sheehan's son. Such is the power of public protest combined with modern media.

We admit to mixed feelings about this. We believe strongly in public protest at any time as an important sign of a robust democracy. And that the issues of the war, how it started, how it ends, are important for the country to engage. We are also mindful that one mother is not 1,850 mothers. There's no one position for grieving parents.

That said, we talked to earlier tonight to Anderson Cooper, who is Crawford, Texas, at the protest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Did this start out as one thing, a bereaved mother's legitimate complaint? We ought not lose sight of the fact Ms. Sheehan lost a child in the war. And then became something else?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Cindy Sheehan and her supporters will tell you, yes, that's exactly what happened. That she came here, basically with her sister and a lawn chair and just planned to sit on the side of the road. And then liberal groups picked up on it, realized the power of it, began to support her, gave her some help with PR, gave her financial support -- Ben Cohen has given her money. And they say it has sort of grown organically.

Her critics will say, you know, she has become a tool of the radical left. It depends on who you want to believe. But the people you meet here, by and large, you know, it's not this well-organized slick machine. It is -- it's largely white, middle-class, middle-aged women. And they continually point that out, who say, look, I've never protested before, a day in my life. I saw Cindy Sheehan on TV sitting here in Crawford. And I wanted to come out and speak up.

BROWN: Is it -- does it remind you -- because I'll be honest, it reminded me today when I was watching your program tonight, it reminded me, oddly, of the whole Schiavo thing last spring. That there...

COOPER: Absolutely.

BROWN: At its core, there's a legitimate issue here. And that, at some point, the sides take over.

COOPER: That's absolutely true. I was at Schiavo, as well. And it is very much like that. I mean, down to the atmosphere among the protesters here. It's probably a little less of a side show Schiavo became. There were more media there. There's less media here.

But it does really boils down to an issue that good people can disagree on. But people -- sides are firmly drawn. And they are very deeply felt. You know, I've seen tears here today just in people talking to me. There is anger on all sides of this.

BROWN: And again, getting back to the center of this, Ms. Sheehan has strong feelings about the war that took her child's life, about the president. And she's grown -- it strikes me, increasingly more comfortable expressing those feelings?

COOPER: Yes. And she's very good, now, in front of the camera. Dozens of interviews a day.

I asked her tonight, look, are you a radical? I mean, because frankly, she's called George Bush the biggest terrorist in the world. She's called a war in Iraq, blatant genocide in her own writings. And she tonight said, yeah, you know what, I guess I am kind of a radical.

BROWN: When does the president come back to Washington?

COOPER: He says in two to three weeks. You know, that may change. She plans to be here this whole time. The question is how much longer will all this attention on her continue? Will it grow? Or does it dissipate?

BROWN: Anderson, thanks. Good to talk to you. Anderson Cooper down in Crawford, Texas tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I talked to Anderson a short time ago.

Still ahead tonight, a mystery: we thought pouring milk on cereal only makes it soggy. How come it's also on the rise? A break -- no, I'm not saying that. We'll take a break. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a moment, the two, young entrepreneurs who saw a gap in the market and filled it with breakfast cereal.

But right now, more serious stuff. At about a quarter til the hour, time for some of the other headlines of the day. Erica Hill joins us again in Atlanta -- Ms. Hill.

HILL: Mr. Brown.

We start off with this, a victory for us all: That is how the Israeli army officer who is leading the evacuation of settlers from the Gaza Strip, described this historic day. Some settlers struggled with soldiers, set fires and vandalized buses taking them to their temporary housing. But in many cases, they were simply led away by unarmed troops.

In Ohio, Governor Bob Taft is in trouble for not disclosing gifts of golf games, dinners and hockey tickets. The charges coming out of an Ohio ethics commissione investigation. Governor Taft faces four misdameanor counts. If convicted, he could be fined and sent to jail.

And efforts to get the shuttle back into space after the Columbia accident were hampered, because NASA hadn't learned the lessons of the disaster. That criticism of NASA management coming from a minority opinion of the task force appointed to look into just how well NASA responded to the recommendations of the Columbia investigation.

And that's the latest on the headlines at this hour. Aaron, do you have a favorite cereal just out of curiosity?

BROWN: I do. But I'll get to that in a moment. Right now, I'm betting a lot of my hard-earned money that Governor Taft is not going to jail on this.

HILL: You know, I'm going to see that bet. And I'm going to raise you. A box of Captain Crunch or something.

BROWN: Actually you can't, but thank you.

HILL: I can't? Darn.

BROWN: No. Thank you.

Some things we just don't get. It used to be that Wonder Bread built bodies -- strong bodies, 8 ways, then all of a sudden it was 12. What changed? Why do fools fall in love? We don't get that either. And we don't get this, how can you build a business empire on the proposition that pouring a bowl of breakfast cereal is simply too much work for the average person? More than that, how can that possibly be on the rise?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ROTH, CEREALITY: Hey, I'm David Roth, one of the founders of Cerealilty.

RICK THATCHER, CEREALITY: Hi, and I'm Rick Thatcher, the other founder.

ROTH: Why don't you come on in.

This is our store, so let's take a look.

Can I have the PB and B Crunch?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah. Sure.

ROTH: Cereality is a quick serve restaurant business. And our focus is on the custom blending of your favorite branded cereal. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I like that. Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what I dreamed of when I was a kid to be able to mix any sugar cereal I wanted.

ROTH: There's over 30 cereals and over 45 toppings. So, it can definitely be overwhelming.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deer in the headlights look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very healthy. I don't understand how people can have Rice Crispies and Pop Rocks, because that's just too much snap, crackle and popping for me. People do that a lot in Australia (ph).

ROTH: We have, right now, four stores. We have a store at Arizona State University. We have Philadelphia, Chicago and at a travel plaza in Pennsylvania.

The idea for Cerealty just came out of an observation that everyone was eating cereal, everywhere I looked. I was sitting in an office on Wall Street across from a friend of mine. We were talking shop. And in the middle of it, he sneaks out a handful of Cocoa Puffs behind the desk. It was that, plus seeing moms, with strollers one side with diapers, the other side were Cheerios.

ROTH: I really think that there's something underlying in the whole excitement about this brand, which has to do with people wanting community, people wanting connection. You'll have an affluent college kid sitting there with a cop on the beat, conversing about their favorite moment when they first discovered Froot Loops, or they first discovered what it was like to suck the milk at the bottom of the ball at the end of the bowl of cereal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Froot Loops.

ROTH: It's the sense of here's a place where you can have five minutes or ten minutes or an hour of your ideal Saturday morning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here you go.

ROTH: It means sitting with my brother, or sister in front of the TV, watching cartoons, having our favorite cereals, having a moment in time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Next thing they'll figure out how to sell $4 cups of coffee.

Scientific breakthrough becomes the next political fight. "Morning Papers" when we're back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I saw the most bizarre headline. Time to check -- it fortunately came at this moment. Time to check "Morning Papers" from around the country and around the world.

Cheerios, by the way.

The "International Herald Tribune," down here, guys. "Biobandage Aids Victims Burned In Test: Swiss Report Success by Using Fetal Cells." It turns out, while this checks out, that fetal cells -- actually, the science on the fetal tissue has unusual healing properties, makes a great bandage. Welcome to the culture wars, round 500.

"The Guardian."

Anyway, we should chase that story. That's a good story.

"The Guardian," "Met Chief," Metropolitan Polce Chief -- "Tried to Stop Shooting Inquiry by Invoking," you guessed it, "National Security." I'm deeply suspicious of things like that. Perhaps, too.

"The New York Daily News" "Kicking and Screaming" is their headline. "Gaza settlers evicted in Israel's bid for peace. Impossible to watch without tears, said Prime Minister Ariel Sharon" One of the New York tabs headlined this today, "Push Came to Shove." That was a pretty good headline.

"The Washington Post," down here, OK? Talking about food earlier. "Hold that health, serve that burger. Restaurant chains find low-fat mean lean sales." Yes, that's my theory. You don't go to Kentucky Fried Chicken for health food. You go because you like the combination of the herbs and the spices and the grease and the whole thing. That's why you go. You don't admit it, but it's true.

All right. Tell me this isn't the best story ever. "Grandma" -- this is the "Press of Atlantic City." "Grandma Gets Last Wish To Go Up, Out With a Bang." They put granny, in this case Selma Cochoran's, ashes in a large balloon, filled with granny and helium, as it turns out. And they let it off, let it go. And it went up two to six miles in the atmosphere, and then blew up, just the way granny wanted. Wow. That is one, cool granny.

If you're in Chicago tomorrow, speaking of such things, the weather tomorrow -- thank you -- "Snap, Crackle and Pop." This is like a theme show. The pictures of the day in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Challenger, go with throttle up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An unforgettable moment, the Space Shuttle Challenger exploding over the sky of Cape Canaveral, Florida, in 1986. Several crew members were lost that day, among them, Grace Corrigan's 37-year-old daughter Christa McAuliffe, who had hoped to be the first teacher in space. CHRISTA MCAULIFFE, DIED IN CHALLENGER ACCIDENT: I don't think any teacher has ever been more ready.

UNIDEHTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think it was we understood that something horribly had happened. I think it was the fact that we didn't want to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Following the tragedy, McAuliffe's parents sought to keep her memory alive. Working along with Christa's al mater, Frammingham State College, the McAuliffe Center was established, honoring Christa's commitment to education.

According to the center, there are 40 schools named after McAuliffe worldwide. Her legacy of education is also thriving through many scholarships and fellowships in her name.

McAuliffe's children are grown now. And her husband, Scott, remarried. Grace Corregan lost her husband, Edward, in 1990. But she works closely with the McAuliffe Center in memory of her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED: The reason I do is because I feel Christa saying, hey, come on, mom, not there to do it. You know, do it for me. And I find it's been very rewarding. And I'm very proud of her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Twenty seconds for the picture of the day. I chose this one -- come on, let's see it. There we go. Because I found it amusing. Hit the ball, you guys, not eachother. But the team of judges, which is a very sentimental lot, chose this one, a days old panda born in the San Diego Zoo, only the second born in the country.

See you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.

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