Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Hunt for Osama bin Laden Impacted by South Asia Earthquake?; United States Prepared For Bird Flu Pandemic?; Karl Rove Under Fire
Aired October 10, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
We begin the week with a cold reality, the numbers that give meaning to nature's raw power.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: More than 30,000 people dead in Pakistan. Thousands of men, women and children still trapped under mountains of debris. And what could this mean for the war on terror? Was Osama bin Laden hit by the quake? Tonight, bin Laden and the catastrophe. Could it flush him out or will it work to his advantage?
Police brutality caught on tape. A white officer beats a black man to a bloody pulp. Was it racial violence, necessary roughness or simply a product of overwhelming stress. See for yourself.
And is America prepared for the bird flu? The disease is spreading. Could it hit here? And, if it does, are you and your family at risk? Tonight, we look at the worst-case scenario, why the government better come up with a plan and fast.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN AND ANDERSON COOPER.
COOPER: And welcome again to NEWSNIGHT.
We begin with a look at what's happening right now at this moment. Survivors are still being found from Saturday's deadly earthquake in South Asia, where the death toll continues to rise. More than 30,000 people have been killed in Pakistan alone. And at least 999 were killed in India. One person is confirmed dead in Afghanistan.
The U.S. is making an initial contribution of $50 million in relief. Some of that arrived in Pakistan today. Officials in Guatemala say they may abandon communities buried by landslides and declare them mass graveyards. Guatemala's death doll from the torrential rains associated with Hurricane Stan is 652, with 384 people still missing at this hour. Rescuers have stopped efforts to find more bodies, though. They say they don't know where to dig anymore. New York City is scaling back security that was beefed up last Thursday after they received word of a threat against the city's mass transit system. A police spokesman says the intelligence that led to the heightened alert was not corroborated. Security improvements and bag inspections that were introduced after the July bombings in London will remain in place.
And the world's third space tourist is back on Earth tonight, after spending last week on board the International Space Station; 60- year-old American Greg Olsen paid the Russian Space Agency $20 million for his ticket to the cosmos. The Soyuz spacecraft he rode back to Earth landed in central Kazakstan earlier tonight.
BROWN: That's what's happening.
We begin tonight with the quake. We have seen it in Aceh and Guatemala, in New Orleans. A helicopter sets down near hundreds of people, or maybe an aid truck pulls up, people starving, people dying. And there to decide who gets water or who goes where or who lives and who dies is a soldier, a kid, usually. And, in that moment, things get very quiet. This is what disasters are made of, crying need and painful silence.
Reporting for us tonight from Pakistan, CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By helicopter, we entered Pakistan's nightmare. The northern town of Balakot was home to 250,000 people. But that was last week. Now it's flattened.
On the ground, we were greeted with mayhem. Survivors believing we had food and water for their families scrambled for our bags. We had to struggle to get them back then explain we had nothing and had come here alone. It's not what people this desperate want to hear.
Where is the Pakistani army, he screamed? Why aren't they here to save us yet?
Days after this earthquake struck, the people of Balakot, what's left of them, in shock.
Amidst the rubble, the search for survivors seems increasingly hopeless, too. This was once a picturesque tourist town. Now they're dragging corpses from the hotels. The stench was gut wrenching.
(on camera): How many people still lie buried beneath this rubble is anyone's guess. Ask any of the locals and they believe it's thousands of people, some of them possibly still alive. But across this whole region, in the heart of the earthquake zone, whole areas are out of reach of the rescue efforts. And without professional rescue teams here, it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to find any more survivors.
(voice-over): Pakistani army helicopters are arriving to ferry some of the injured to hospitals. But locals complain it's not enough. Everybody desperately wants to escape the terrible conditions here. Around the choppers, it's chaos. And for many in Balakot, what little relief there is comes to late, like Mohamed Hassan we found burying his family.
As the extent of this south Asian horror emerges, there will be more tragedy like this and far more tears.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE: Well, Aaron, certainly, we have seen all that tragedy in the northern areas of Pakistan, but there are glimmers of hope elsewhere.
That's certainly what we have been experiencing and witnessing here in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital. This collapsed building right behind me, a 10-story apartment building, collapsed into the courtyard right in front of it, up to 100 people trapped inside.
But it has been delivering survivors, the results of work by various rescue teams here. Over the course of the last few hours, a mother and a young daughter, three days after that earthquake struck, have been taken away to safety from that building. So, there is some degree of hope amongst all the desperation, Aaron.
BROWN: How wide an area of destruction are we talking about here? How many tens of miles?
CHANCE: Well, talking about a -- well, it's -- we are talking about a vast area all along northern Pakistan, right into parts of India and Indian-administered Kashmir, right into Afghanistan as well.
So, we are talking about hundreds of miles in length, perhaps more than that, across -- you know, spanning at least three -- three nations, involving, you know, hundreds of thousands of people being made homeless, in fact, some estimates saying 2.5 million people being made homeless. So, it really is a region-wide disaster.
BROWN: And, Matt, when people talk about 30,000 dead, are they doing anything other than making a guess?
CHANCE: Well, that's a good question, because I don't think they are, no.
They're very, always, in situations like this, as cautious as they can be, I think, when it comes to estimating how many people are dead. Part of the problem is that, in a country like Pakistan, there hasn't really been for many years an accurate census.
BROWN: Yes.
CHANCE: And so people don't really know exactly who lived where and how many people lived where at any given time. So, it is just a big estimate, I'm afraid, Aaron.
BROWN: Matt, thank you -- Matthew Chance, who is in Pakistan tonight. We always -- we always say this in these moments. The early reporting tends to be very general. Maybe it's 30,000. Maybe it's 50,000. Maybe it's 10,000. Thirty thousand is the number that people are guessing right now. And we can work with that, but it doesn't mean it's the number.
COOPER: Well, also, in a situation like this, I mean, some of these towns, they are just going to be bulldozed. And some people may never be accounted for, so, there may never be an accurate number at all.
Earthquakes don't discriminate. Good people die. So do bad ones. Children can get killed, so, too, murders. Thirty thousand dead in Pakistan tonight, that's the estimate. Could one of them be the man that the U.S. has been hunting for years to find, Osama bin Laden?
We asked CNN's Jamie McIntyre to look into the possibility.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Any speculation about the fate of Osama bin Laden has to begin to the acknowledgment that while U.S. intelligence thinks he's holed up in Pakistan, no one really knows. Saturday's earthquake was centered along Pakistan's eastern line of control. The dividing line between Pakistani and Indian zones of Kashmir.
The destruction does extend to the west, but not as far as the rugged border region where bin Laden is thought to have been given sanctuary by sympathetic tribal leaders who are largely outside government control.
And U.S. commanders say the manhunt for the moment is taking a back seat to humanitarian relief.
LT. GEN. KARL EIKENBERRY, COMMANDING GENERAL, U.S. FORCES, AFGHANISTAN: Right now, the entire focus of the Pakistani leadership and the military and the people are to relieve the suffering.
MCINTYRE: While the U.S. and Afghan militaries continue to engage Taliban and al Qaeda remnants, after four years, they have yet to find Osama bin Laden, or for that matter, his deputy, Ayman al- Zawahiri, or Taliban leader Mullah Omar.
Pakistani forces haven't fared much better on their side of the border, and don't expect the earthquake to shake bin Laden loose now.
(on camera): A senior defense official tells CNN there have been no indications bin Laden was killed or injured in the quake, or for that matter, even inconvenienced. But U.S. intelligence officials are keeping a sharp eye out in case he moves and gives his location away.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: A quick download for you on the FBI's efforts to find Osama bin Laden. The al Qaeda leader has been on the agency's 10- most-wanted fugitives list since June 7, 1999. He was added to the list for his connection to the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, which killed more than 200 people. Of course, we all know now bin Laden is now wanted for other terrorist attacks throughout the world. The FBI is offering a $25 million reward for information that leads to his capture.
BROWN: In other news tonight, the U.S. Justice Department announced it will investigate the beating of Robert Davis, whose day -- whose name may some day become as well-known as Amadou Diallo or Rodney King.
This weekend, the 64-year-old elementary school teacher was punched, repeatedly, by three New Orleans police officers, the incident recorded on videotape, which took it from just another moment on mean streets to something else again.
Here's CNN's Alina Cho.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Those who know it say Bourbon Street is a place where almost anything goes, a place that is just coming alive again after Hurricane Katrina.
But, on Saturday night, what should have been a routine arrest turned violent. Two New Orleans police officers are seen on this videotape punching a 64-year-old man, Robert Davis, at least four times. Later, four men, two of them clearly identified as police, push Davis to the ground and place him in a headlock. Police say he was drunk, but his attorney says that's simply not true.
JOSEPH BRUNO, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT DAVIS: He was absolutely not drunk, did not drink.
CHO: A CNN photographer tapes the aftermath. Some here have suggested race may have been a factor. The officers are white, the suspect black.
EARL BERNHARDT, BAR OWNER: But any time it's white policemen and a black victim, then it tends to get pushed into that corner.
CHO: Earl Bernhardt was nearby when the beating took place. He owns four bars on Bourbon Street, been here for 21 years.
(on camera): What is it that you're most concerned about?
BERNHARDT: We are most concerned that -- of the image that this is going to portray nationally. You know, we don't want it to look like another Rodney King-type situation.
CHO: New Orleans Police Chief Warren Riley says race is a factor in this city, but not in this case. WARREN RILEY, ACTING NEW ORLEANS POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: At this point, there's no evidence to show that these officers -- that this incident involved a hatred of one race or the other.
CHO: Yet, civil rights attorneys at the Justice Department have launched an investigation into the case. And, in this Southern city, race has been an issue before. On New Year's Eve, 2004, a 25-year-old black college student died after a fight with bouncers outside a Bourbon Street nightclub. The lawyer for the family of the victim argued the student not allowed into the club because of a dress code and said similarly dressed white people were allowed in.
The nightclub said, race was not an issue. The case has not yet gone to trial. Chief Riley would not comment on the nightclub case. Instead, he talked about how the civil rights movement has shaped this city.
RILEY: We have certainly had our hard times and our ancestors certainly had harder times. There have been racial problems throughout the early part of the '60s and '70s. I'm sure that there is some that still exist here today.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHO: The three New Orleans police officers allegedly involved in this incident were arraigned today on battery charges. They all pleaded not guilty, left the courthouse without comment and are currently suspended without pay.
Now, the beating victim, 64-year-old Robert Davis, he will have his day in court tomorrow on charges, including public intoxication. But, Aaron, his lawyer tells us that this is a sweet man, a retired teacher, as you mentioned. And, interestingly enough, he says he is a reformed alcoholic and has not had a drink in years -- Aaron.
BROWN: Alina, thank you. Alina Cho is down in New Orleans tonight.
COOPER: Well, earlier tonight, I talked to acting Police Chief Superintendent Warren Riley about the police beating. He has a lot to say on the videotape and his department's response. I will have the interview coming up in the second hour of NEWSNIGHT.
Just ahead tonight, has the New Orleans police force been asked to do too much with too little for too long?
And, later, ex-FBI Director Louis Freeh shares an insider's perspective on the Clinton White House and the frustration of constantly having to investigate his own boss -- that and much more ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Whether or not the videotape beating of Robert Davis turns out to be a crime or a firing offense will be for the courts and for others to decide. This much is clear, however. Police in New Orleans haven't had a very good month or more. So, did the accumulated weight of it contribute to the videotape beating, not excuse it, just contribute to it? We don't know the answer, but it does add to the tension. That, you can be sure of.
Here's CNN's Dan Simon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shortly after the officers pummel the 64-year-old suspect and wrestle him to the ground, one of the officers loses his temper with an AP producer, venting his frustration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have been here for six weeks and I'm trying to keep my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) self alive and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) want to come and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up my city.
SIMON: The officers have been charged with battery, a misdemeanor and have been suspended without pay. All pleaded not guilty. Lieutenant David Benelli heads the police union.
LT. DAVID BENELLI, NEW ORLEANS POLICE DEPARTMENT: The officers are upset. They are upset that they were suspended. They thought their actions were justified, given the circumstances that were at hand.
SIMON: The larger circumstances also include brutal 12-hour shifts, officers separated from families, and this startling figure. Three-quarters of New Orleans officers lost their homes.
RILEY: The stress is not just Hurricane Katrina. It's the aftermath and it's so many other things that the officers are going through.
OLIVER THOMAS, PRESIDENT, NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCIL: Is this something psychological that needs to be dealt with? Yes. Do they need time off? Yes. Should we be taking care of them? Absolutely.
SIMON: Some officers have taken advantage of counselors, But not nearly enough, says City Council President Oliver Thomas.
THOMAS: We should mandate some type of counseling and some type of therapy where they can relieve the stress and anxiety.
SIMON: That should happen now?
THOMAS: Yesterday.
SIMON (on camera): Psychologists say police officers generally don't seek professional help. It's not in their rough-and-tumble culture to spell out personal issues, all the more reason, says Councilman Thomas, to make it a requirement.
THOMAS: And I'm not an expert. But when you have been -- your family is gone, don't have a place to live, you haven't slept maybe but a couple hours a day for five or six weeks, yes, it would take a -- it would take a human toll on anyone.
SIMON (voice-over): Still, Lieutenant Benelli with the police union doesn't believe stress or fatigue played a role in the officers' behavior.
BENELLI: We are working long hours, but we are coping with working these long hours.
SIMON: There will be more long hours ahead, as National Guard troops and other law enforcement agencies begin to pull out. And the citizens of this beleaguered city try to move back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON: Adding to the stress, the officers are living on very tight cruise ships. When they do have some time off, there's really no place to go and no one to spend it with, Aaron.
BROWN: Do we know anything about the personal situation of any of the others involved in the weekend incident? Do we know if their homes were lost, if they were under any greater stress than anyone else?
SIMON: That's an excellent question. At this point, we don't have that information. We actually asked the public information officer with the New Orleans Police Department about that. He did not know.
But, you know, as you talk to officials here, they say, regardless of the situation that they were under, there's really no excuse for it -- Aaron.
BROWN: I will second that. Thank you. Thank you, Dan, very much.
When we -- man, that last shot, it's something, isn't it?
When we come back, the day's top headlines, including the latest on the earthquake in Pakistan.
Also, bird flu. The pandemic could kill millions around the world. Is the United States prepared? And how do you contract that flu? Who is most at risk? If you have a question about avian flu, in the next hour of NEWSNIGHT, Dr. Sanjay Gupta will answer those questions or at least your questions, 866-853-1100, or e-mail your questions to NEWSNIGHT@CNN.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Coming up, Karl Rove going back to the grand jury for the fourth time, as it investigates the leak of a CIA officer's identity.
But, first, time for some of the other stories that made news on this Monday. Erica Hill joins us from Atlanta.
Good evening, Ms. Hill. ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good evening to you, Mr. Brown.
We start off tonight in Pakistan, where the death toll from this weekend's earthquake standing now at more than 30,000. In Pakistan, close to 1,000 people have died in India. And as many as five million people are now homeless. They're sleeping under open skies in near- freezing temperatures.
In California, new research showing a record number of baby boomers are dying of drug overdoses, nearly 4,000 people, and that's up more than 70 percent since 1990. Drug prevention officials say there's no strategy in place to help older drug users, and that has to change.
From North Carolina, all the way north to Maine, rain causing severe flooding and is being blamed for at least 10 deaths now. Hundreds have had to evacuate their homes. Power has been knocked out in some areas and many roads are impassable.
Meantime, on a much lighter note, you can forget about buying Britney's bra online. The pop music star has removed the jewel- encrusted undergarment from eBay. Now, this is actually the second time her bra was pulled from the action site -- auction site. You see, the first time, eBay gatekeepers took it down. They cited a policy which forbids the sale of, shall we say, previously worn foundation garments.
Well, then eBay gave the green light, deciding, you know what? This is more of an entertainment collectible. This time around, the pop star pulling it, saying on her Web site, she is -- quote -- "concerned that people might confuse it for something it's not."
And, Aaron, Anderson, we will let you two hash that one out.
COOPER: What does that mean?
HILL: I have no idea.
COOPER: Something it's not?
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: I don't -- I don't know. Why are you looking at me and asking me that?
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: I don't know.
BROWN: I know almost nothing about either...
COOPER: I turn to you for...
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: ... Britney Spears or anything else in that story.
COOPER: I turn to you for all my foundation garment questions.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Thank you. I appreciate that.
COOPER: Erica, thanks.
Next on NEWSNIGHT, Karl Rove under fire and in the hot seat again, his fourth appearance before the grand jury. Did he have something to do with the leak of a CIA operative's name? A grand jury is waiting for the answer. We will have the latest.
Also ahead tonight, ex-FBI Director Louis Freeh launches a blistering attack on Bill Clinton, accusing the former president of cozying up to Saudi Arabia, instead of catching terrorists.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And welcome back.
So, conservatives love them. Liberals hate them. It seems, just about everyone has an opinion on Karl Rove. What people say about the president's right-hand man doesn't really matter, of course, unless they're members of a federal grand jury who want to know what, if any role he played in the leak of a CIA officer's identity. That grand jury showdown could happen as early as this week.
CNN's Joe Johns investigates.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Karl Rove took George Bush from Texas governor's mansion to the White House, riding high on Inauguration Day, but, by the summer, Rove was showing some strain.
KARL ROVE, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: Aren't you embarrassed? Get off my driveway, man. Aren't you embarrassed?
JOHNS: He is under pressure, a federal prosecutor hounding him about the leak of a CIA operative's name. The media camped out.
QUESTION: Good morning, Mr. Rove.
ROVE: Get off the lawn.
QUESTION: Do you feel like you still have...
JOHNS: To some, he's a genius, to others, a master of the political dark arts, brewing up nasty, under-the-radar whispering campaigns. True or not, Rove is a big target.
PROTESTERS: Rove leaks Plame for political gain! Rove leaks Plame... JOHNS: Democrats are lumping Rove in with other Republicans in trouble, trying to build a case that the GOP is corrupt.
HOWARD DEAN (D), DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: We are talking about an atmosphere of arrogance and corruption that the Republican Party has brought to the highest levels of our government.
JOHNS: The most serious allegation is that Rove leaked the name of CIA operative Valerie Plame to reporters to discredit her husband, Joe Wilson, who had cast doubt on Bush's reasons for going to war in Iraq. Rove denies outing her.
ROVE: I didn't know her name and didn't leak her name.
JOHNS: He has been interviewed three times by the federal grand jury investigating the matter and he's going back for a fourth. Prosecutors have told Rove there's no guarantee he won't be indicted.
RANDALL ELIASON, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: There appears to be an assumption that the fact that he is going back in the grand jury is really bad news for Mr. Rove, not necessarily.
JOHNS: Randall Eliason is a former federal prosecutor with the record of going after political figures. His take on Rove's repeat grand jury appearances?
ELIASON: One end of the possibilities is that he really has nothing to fear and he's being fully cooperative and is going in just to answer any further questions. The opposite end of the spectrum is that it's a last desperation move to try to head off an indictment.
JOHNS: If Rove is indicted and forced to resign, the Republicans would lose their best strategic mind at the worst possible time. Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: In every intrigue and this certainly can be called an intrigue, there's a character who works behind the scenes, sometimes more than one, little known or unknown, but vital, a deep throat or a Stanley Pottinger. Stanley Pottinger? Here's CNN's Jeffrey Toobin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Say this about Stan Pottinger, he can sure keep a secret. For thirty years the great guessing game had been the identity of this shadowy figure, the deep throat, the man at the center of Richard Nixon's great fall. Only a handful of people knew it was Mark Felt, the number two man in charge of the FBI and Stan Pottinger, then an attorney at the Justice Department, was one of them.
STANLEY POTTINGER, ATTORNEY AND WRITER: I was a prosecutor and I happened to be examining Mark Felt, who turned out to be Deep Throat and he inadvertently disclosed who he was. TOOBIN: Fast forward to today, three decades later, and once again, the prosecutor now a novelist finds himself involved in another bizarre Washington drama. It's the scandal that may connect Karl Rove and Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, to the possibly illegal leak of a CIA operative's name.
The drama unfolds this way. In July 2003, columnist Robert Novak identifies Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame as a CIA agent. Novak lists as his sources, two senior administration officials and though he doesn't name them.
Judy Miller of "The New York Times" was among the reporters who had talked to White House officials about the time of the Plame leak. When subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury, Miller refused to name her source, who we now know was Scooter Libby, because she had given Libby a pledge of confidentiality.
JUDY MILLER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Believe me, I did not want to be in jail.
TOOBIN: Miller was released after 85 days behind bars when she finally agreed to speak to the grand jury. But only after Libby personally released her from her confidentiality agreement.
Why did it take so long? That's where Stan Pottinger comes in. In early August, Pottinger, an old friend of Miller visited her in jail.
POTTINGER: I came in one side. Judy came in the other. The doors go closed and there she was and we had two hours to talk.
TOOBIN (on camera): How did she look?
POTTINGER: Very thin. She was -- I mean, she was thin going in, but she was pretty emaciated. So, I didn't think she looked very well at all.
TOOBIN (voice-over): Miller explained how the inmates made the best of a bad situation.
POTTINGER: She mentioned at one point that girls will be girls around here. They find a way to look nice by taking, licking their finger, and putting it on a red M&M and then making lipstick with it.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you all.
TOOBIN: The White House in an effort to show it had nothing to hide had asked employees to sign a waiver, a blanket release, freeing reporters from the confidentiality agreements they'd made with their sources. In theory, Miller was freed from her confidentiality pact with Libby, but her attorney advised her that since the waiver had been initiated by the White House, it could be considered to have been coerced.
Libby's lawyer has told "The Washington Post," "we told her lawyers it was not coerced ... we are surprised to learn we had anything to do with her incarceration." But Miller felt she had to hear from Libby, the vice president's chief of staff, directly.
To his astonishment, Pottinger realized Miller stayed in jail because she did not have the direct personal and voluntary waiver from Libby releasing her from her agreement. In fact, she'd never asked for it. He suggested a simple phone call might help and it sure did.
POTTINGER: I was saying to get to that point, you have to authorize your counsel, Bob Bennett, to at least make a cat's paw call. Sort of a little gentle swipe to say, do we have anything to talk about? We're not putting pressure on it, but do we have something to talk about? Is there any misunderstanding that's preceded this?
TOOBIN (on camera): So, why didn't Julie call him -- call up Libby and say do I have your waiver?
POTTINGER: In the first place, she knew that -- and everybody had advised her that for her to call and say, I hear that I didn't get a waiver, can you give me a waiver, constitutes pressure on a source.
TOOBIN (voice-over): Two years after that first conversation about Valerie Plame, Miller and Libby stopped talking through their lawyers and finally spoke directly to each other.
(on camera): And gave her the waiver?
POTTINGER: Right.
TOOBIN (voice-over): But the deal to get her out of jail wasn't done yet. Miller was holding out for an agreement with the Grand Jury Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald to limit her testimony.
POTTINGER: Would it be broad and go into other sources, other stories or would it be narrowly framed on Mr. Libby and the Plame -- Valerie Plame matter?
TOOBIN: Once that was worked out, Miller was free to go. And Pottinger with ties to Watergate and now Plame-gate is left wondering how he got caught up in two of the biggest White House related mysteries in history.
POTTINGER: Somebody once said that wherever I go there's a mild hurricane. Maybe that's just the way it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Jeffrey Toobin is with us now. Judy Miller goes back to meet with prosecutors, not clear if she's going back to the grand jury. Do we know what that's about?.
TOOBIN: She has apparently discovered notes of another meeting with Scooter Libby that she apparently hadn't found earlier. She's going to produce them and either she will deliver them herself to the grand jury or just simply to prosecutors.
BROWN: And on the subject of discovered stuff, there was also a recently discovered Rove e-mail that may or may not have something to do with his fourth appearance before the grand jury?
TOOBIN: That's right. One of the things that's always important to a prosecutor is the chronology of events. What happened when? What did you know when? And in an age when there's e-mails and phone records that can be quite detailed, that's what Patrick Fitzgerald is undoubtedly trying to figure out before he decides whether he's going to prosecute anybody.
BROWN: Yes. I have a question about perjury. Not -- hopefully will never come up in my life. But, if it does it will be handy, also. If Mr. Rove, let's say hypothetically, Mr. Rove goes before the grand jury and in appearance one, and says, a, b, c, and d happened, in appearance four, he says well, actually a, b, c, d, e, f, g happened, has he perjured himself?
TOOBIN: It all goes to the question of intent. Perjury is what is called a specific intent crime. If in appearance A, the grand jury and ultimately, a trial jury believes that it was a honest mistake, that it was simply a misrembering of the facts, then it is not a crime. But if the grand jury and jury believes that he was intentionally lying and only changed the story when documents or something came forward where he had to change his story that's then it's -- that's a difference between perjury and not perjury.
BROWN: So, it's perjury if the only reason you're telling the truth is because you got caught lying the first time?
TOOBIN: Correct. But, any time you lie intentionally, that's perjury. Even if you go back and correct the record later, it is still perjury.
BROWN: And the reason we concentrate on perjury or at least I concentrate on perjury is this sense I have, that it's almost impossible to convict somebody on the underlying law of intentionally outing an undercover CIA operative. I mean, this law --
TOOBIN: That's a very -- that's a good assumption on your part. That law, there's never been a trial where someone has been convicted. There's been one guilty plea but the law is so complicated and difficult, that it does seem that the likely prosecution, if there is one, and we don't know there will be, will be some sort of obstruction of justice, perjury in the course of the investigation.
BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Toobin. You can be my lawyer.
TOOBIN: Thank you.
BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the former head of the FBI, Louis Freeh takes aim at his old boss, boy, did he, Bill Clinton. He makes some very nasty accusations. Are they based on fact? Take a look at that.
Plus, the bird flu, fears of a possible pandemic. As the disease spreads to farms in Europe. So, what are the symptoms of bird flu? How does bird flu spread? Is there a vaccine? Next hour, Dr. Sanjay Gupta will answer those and other questions. She'll answer your question, maybe. 866-853-1100 or e-mail the question to NEWSNIGHT@CNN.COM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So, when a Washington insider publicly reveals secrets, more often than not, there's a book involved. And in the case of FBI director Louis Freeh, that is certainly the case. Freeh is talking publicly now and making some startling allegations against former President Bill Clinton.
Case in point, the attack in June 1996 on the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, 19 U.S. airmen killed, you will remember. Well, then President Bill Clinton vowed justice saying, quote, "the cowards who committed this murderous act must not go unpunished." But apparently they did. Freeh now says Clinton himself is to blame.
CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over) It wasn't exactly friends, but when it began, the president called his pick for FBI director a legend. And Louis Freeh said he was honored. Over the course of seven years, it became a "Survivor" episode.
LOUIS FREEH, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: He had expressed antipathy for the FBI, for the director. I was going to stay there and make sure he couldn't replace me.
CROWLEY: In a "60 Minutes" interview advancing the release of his new book, Freeh talked of the frustration of constantly having to investigate his boss. He writes, "in the weirdness of getting a blood sample to the president to match the DNA found on Monica Lewinsky's dress."
FREEH: Well, it was like a bad movie. And it was ridiculous that, you know Ken Starr and myself, the director of the FBI, find ourselves in that ridiculous position.
CROWLEY: "The president," Freeh writes in his book, "had closets full of skeletons just waiting to burst out." The president routinely referred to his FBI director with an expletive.
LANNY BREUER, FRM. CLINTON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I think the president had a sense that Louis Freeh, not the FBI itself, but the director was not particularly loyal, that he had a sense that the director was trying to get him.
CROWLEY: The tensions were both highly personal and geopolitical. Freeh scores the president for a poor record on terrorism.
FREEH: We lacked the political will, the spine, to take military action against our enemies.
CROWLEY: In 1996, 19 American service men were killed, more than 370 injured, in a truck bomb at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. Freeh says he asked President Clinton to use a meeting with the Saudi Crown Prince to press for access to the Saudi suspects. Freeh claims the president punted that issue and then asked for money for his library. This sets the keepers of the Clinton flame on fire.
BREUER: There isn't one person in that meeting, not one, who corroborates what the director says. And the director wasn't even at the meeting. It is just an incredibly damning statement based on absolutely nothing.
CROWLEY: Other Clintonites are less polite, accusing Freeh of lying to sell books, kiss up to the right and distract from what they say was his miserable record on anti-terrorism.
Freeh's full response is coming soon to a bookstore near you.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, whatever the truth of it, the interesting thing for the former president is he can't really come out and response.
COOPER: Sure.
BROWN: I mean, he's just is -- his friends come out.
COOPER: Right.
BROWN: But, you know, the former president of the United States not holding a press conference saying the guy is lying.
COOPER: That is certainly true.
BROWN: Amazing.
Coming up, more on the bird flu. But first, other stories that made news today. Erica Hill, again in Atlanta. Good evening again, Erica.
HILL: Hello again, Aaron.
In Pakistan tonight, devastation and shock: rescuers still pulling survivors from the concrete rubble of Saturday's massive earthquake. The death toll, though, is also climbing fast. More than 30,000 people now believed dead in Pakistan. Almost a thousand killed in India. And some 5 million people are getting desperate as the cold sets in and they are homeless.
U.S. supplies started arriving in Pakistan on U.S. military helicopters today.
Meantime, in New York, a heightened subway security alert widening down. While the debate whether the terror alert was necessary continues, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is standing by the his decision. Random bag searches do continue in the subway. And in California, swimming for Katrina victims. This is just an incredible story. A 9-year-old boy braving the cold, choppy shark infested waters of San Francisco Bay all to raise money for victims of Hurricane Katrina. Johnny Wilson spent his Columbus Day holiday making the 1.4 mile swim from Alcatraz Island through San Francisco Bay on over to Aquatic Park. He helped raise $30,000 in donations. And in the process, he also became the youngest person over to make the notorious swim, which is pretty impressive. I can never do it. That's for sure.
COOPER: How about a 9-year-old boy in better shape than either of us? That's kind of sad.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: You're nine, no. You shouldn't be able to, like -- probably bench press more than I could.
HILL: OK. I'm going to leave that one alone.
BROWN: Just glad to be able to get out of bed in the morning at my age. Thank you and talk to you later.
Just ahead, the moment no one is wishing for, when bird -- when you get to 56, that's how you feel. It turns into something worse. You have to get flu shots for one thing. What happens when it does? What are the chances it will? How do you catch it? Also, the one drug that can treat it. How well does it work? Has the government made enough of it? Tamiflu, the bird flu and you. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back to NEWSNIGHT. There are new worries about bird flu tonight. There's a confirmed case of the disease at a farm in western Turkey and reportedly in neighboring Romania. At least 2,000 birds in Turkey have died, many of them slaughtered, as a precaution. In one village, health officials have ordered all birds and even street dogs to be killed. They're afraid the disease will cross species.
Meanwhile, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt is in southeast Asia tonight. He's working with health officials there to coordinate a global response to a pandemic that he says is all but certain.
You probably heard about avian flu, but the details may have escaped you. We asked CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta to explain what all of us need to know.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Avian flu, or H5N1, has infected more than 100 people so far in at least 10 countries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The virus in Asia is killing more than 50 percent of humans infected. If this virus learns to transmit human to human, and maintains that level of killing humans, we've got a global catastrophe.
GUPTA: Under electron microscope, flu viruses look like spiky creatures, akin to tiny hedgehogs. H5N1 may seem unassuming in the lab, but to be sure, it has the ability to cause a public health crisis. In fact, experts say that H5N1 resembles a strain responsible for the 1918 flu pandemic. That strain mutated to spread between people, and ultimately killed as many as 50 million around the world.
Today, there have been a handful of human-to-human transmissions of avian influenza, but it certainly does not spread easily.
But scientists warn that H5N1 could change to become an explosive killer. That is, it could mutate on its own like the 1918 flu did, or it could combine with the common flu that circulates every year.
Here's what I mean. Lets's say this chicken farmer has the regular flu, which always spreads like wildfire from person to person. Then, he gets infected with H5N1 from one of his chickens. Now, both viruses are in his cells, where they exchange some of their eight genes. That's called reassortment. If they shuffle the genes just right, the H5N1 strain can pick up the gene that makes it easy to pass from person to person, just like the winter flu does, and that is the biggest fear of all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: And that is an example of what this mutation is that we've been talking so much about, Anderson. But keep in mind that mutation is still largely a random process, and that's the most frustrating thing of all. We just don't know when and if it might happen, and that's very difficult for a lot of people to get their arms around. A lot of people now are just keeping their fingers crossed that that mutation doesn't happen, Anderson.
COOPER: But if the mutation does happen, the strain that is passed from one person to another is weaker than the original strain. Is that correct?
GUPTA: You know, it's interesting. That might be. It might be somewhat weaker than before, but keep in mind, again, we are talking about something that kills half the people that it infects. So even if it kills, you know, a quarter of the people it infects, it is still one of the most -- probably the most lethal virus ever -- we have ever seen. The 1918 virus, which killed 100 million, only killed five in 100, and it still killed 100 million people. So that just gives you an economy of scale there, Anderson.
COOPER: I know a lot of us have questions we want to ask you about this kind of thing. In the next hour of NEWSNIGHT, we are going to have a segment, "Ask the Expert." Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to stay with us, and ask your -- answer your questions about the bird flu. You can find out what countries are most at risk, how the U.S. government is responding -- really, whatever questions you want answered. You can just give us a call within the next 10 minutes, at 866-853-1100. That's 866-853-1100. Or e-mail us your questions to newsnight@cnn.com. Sanjay will answer them. Yes, he will.
BROWN: Let's see how it works. Lots of questions people have apparently.
COOPER: Yes, we've been getting a lot of calls already, so just in the next 10 minutes, if you can, give us a call, and we'll try to get your questions on the air.
BROWN: And we'll see how that works.
Later on the program, I got an e-mail today from his brother who is on vacation in Greece. "I'm going to the pharmacy," he wrote, "do you want me to bring you home any Tamiflu?" Tamiflu is the new Cipro, and people are stocking up for the very same reason they did during the anthrax scare. They suspect their government isn't doing enough.
Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Bradley Care pharmacy in Bethesda, Maryland, pharmacist Bruce Zagnit is filling more prescriptions for flu medicine than he does in the dead of winter, and everyone wants Tamiflu.
(on camera): All these boxes up here you've ordered as backup?
BRUCE ZAGNIT, PHARMACIST, BRADLEY CARE PHARMACY: Correct.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Taken within 48 hours of the first symptoms, Tamiflu was designed to keep a person with the flu, any flu, from getting any sicker.
ZAGNIT: There is a lot of press. And there's a lot of conflicting reports coming out. And you just don't know what's going to happen.
FOREMAN (on camera): So people really are panicking over this thing?
ZAGNIT: Correct.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Maybe so many Americans are privately preparing for a possible deadly bird flu pandemic because their government is admittedly not ready.
MIKE LEAVITT, HHS SECRETARY: Periodically, we have pandemics in the world. We have had three in this century. And you'd think that it would be a matter of constant concern to us. It has not been anywhere in the world, and consequently, the world is unprepared.
FOREMAN: The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is working on a comprehensive plan to fight an outbreak, and Tamiflu is part of it. But the government has ordered only enough to treat 4.3 million people -- less than 2 percent of Americans. The maker of Tamiflu, Roche, says European countries have ordered much more. France, enough for 13 million. Britain, 15 million. That, along with the vaccine shortage, has infuriated some health experts.
DR. ROBERT WEBSTER, ST. JUDES CHILDREN'S RESEARCH HOSPITAL: This is the greatest technological country on earth. And we can't make our own vaccine? That's nonsense. What's the problem? We need to identify that problem, put our finger on that problem, and solve that damn problem now.
FOREMAN: The U.S. government insists, quote, "it would be wrong to use Tamiflu as a measure of our preparedness," and they point to their developing plans for widespread vaccination and containment if an outbreak begins.
Still, Roche says it takes 10 months to make Tamiflu, and if demand keeps rising, they can't keep pace. The U.S. government is also ordering a similar drug called Relenza, but officials say they already can't get enough of that. And vaccines?
DR. ANNE MOSCONA, CORNELL UNIVERSITY WEILL MEDICAL CENTER: The problem is that vaccines take several months to prepare once you know what strain you're dealing with. So, if we have a new strain emerging, we're not going to be able to make the vaccine in time.
FOREMAN (on camera): All of this, of course, could add up to needless worry. No one knows if avian flu is even going to make it here, if there's going to be a major outbreak, or if all this Tamiflu is even going to be needed.
ZAGNIT: There are no hard facts of what is going to happen. Everything is an educated guess, at this point.
FOREMAN (voice-over): All the same, many Americans are betting on this drug and buying it up well before the first ache or fever of flu season.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Bethesda, Maryland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT, conspiracy theories. Why some people think the flooding in New Orleans was an act of man, not an act of God.
Plus, the New Orleans police beating. Why did it happen? We'll hear from the top cop, the acting superintendent, Warren Riley.
And another reminder, ask the expert about bird flu. Dr. Sanjay Gupta taking your calls. Call us toll-free.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Not even charging you for this. 866-853-1100. Basic cable, you don't pay extra for that, either. E-mail newsnight@cnn.com.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
