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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Euthanasia Performed in Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?; Police Accused in New Orleans Beating Defend Actions
Aired October 12, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
We have heard so much, so many hard-to-believe stories out of New Orleans in the last weeks and days. We thought we had heard them all, until tonight -- new allegations from a New Orleans doctor that some of his colleagues, doctors and nurses, may have intentionally killed their elderly patients in those dark days after Katrina struck.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Did desperate times during Hurricane Katrina call for desperate measures? Stunning accusations of mercy killings at a New Orleans hospital.
DR. BRYANT KING, PRACTICED AT MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER: Most people know that something -- something happened that shouldn't have happened.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, did doctors euthanize patients? A CNN exclusive investigative report. What really happened inside Memorial Medical Center?
Robert Davis, beaten on the streets of New Orleans, stands his ground and pleads not guilty to all charges. Tonight, why the attorney for the police says the cops did the right thing.
And, an emotional day for residents of New Orleans' Ninth Ward, evacuees returning home for the first time to survey the damage, but not allowed to stay -- tonight, the pain of being a visitor in your own home.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN AND ANDERSON COOPER.
COOPER: And welcome to in the NEWSNIGHT. Aaron is off tonight.
We have got a lot of stories to cover. Here's a quick look at what's happening at this moment.
In Pakistan today, in strong -- a strong aftershock, with a preliminary magnitude of 5.6, hitting a region already in ruins from Saturday's deadly earthquake. There are no reports of new damage, however. Saturday's quake may have killed more than 42,000 people. That death toll could rise. The White House says no emphasis is being placed on the religion of Supreme Court nominee Miers. Earlier today, President Bush suggested that he picked Miers, in part, because of her evangelical Christian beliefs. The White House says Mr. Bush was simply pointing out facts about who Miers is.
Also in Washington, "New York Times" reporter Judith Miller has given more testimony before a grand jury investigating the leak of a CIA operative's name. Today was her second appearance. And she served 85 days in jail for refusing to reveal her source. That source, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, gave her a personal waiver to talk last month.
And police in Gwinnett County, Georgia, have arrested a man they say stole a charter jet in Florida and flew it to Georgia. The sergeant involved with the case says the weekend flight probably was not related to terrorism. He says it was most likely a joyride.
Some ride.
We begin tonight at a moment when Hurricane Katrina went from being a disaster to a tragedy, when people began making choices that leave a mark on the soul. Now, as the water and the mud recede, secrets are coming to light, whispers of life-and-death decisions and talk, heard here for the first time anywhere, of more, of mercy killing.
Authorities in Louisiana are investigating. Tonight, we know this for certain. At a bare minimum, the question was on the table inside a hospital.
Here's CNN's Jonathan Freed with this exclusive report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There was no power. Patients and staff thought they were stranded in 110-degree sweltering heat. It was desperate.
KING: I was really upset that it had come to this. And we were -- we were a hospital, but we -- we weren't really functioning as a hospital. We were functioning as a shelter at this point.
FRAN BUTLER, NURSE MANAGER, MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER: It was battle conditions. I mean, it was as bad as being out on the field.
FREED: They were running out of food and water. Workers carried patients into the parking garage to wait for evacuations. But there were too few rescuers and often too late.
KING: There's no electricity. There's no water. It is hot. I mean, people are dying. We thought it was as bad as it could get. All we wanted to know is, why aren't we being investigated yet? I mean, that was our biggest thing: We should be gone by now.
FREED: Nine days after the hospital was finally emptied, there were dozens of bodies -- in the morgue, in the hallways, and in the chapel. In all, hospital officials now say 45 bodies were found at Memorial.
Some patients, already near death when Katrina hit, may have succumbed to their ailments. Others may have given in to the terrible conditions.
(on camera): But a CNN investigation reveals that doctors and nurses grew so desperate that some of them openly and repeatedly discussed euthanizing patients, whom they believed would not survive their ordeal, so desperate, there was talk of mercy killings, talk of mercy killings by health professionals as a serious option as an American hospital.
BUTLER: My nurses wanted to know, what was the plan? Did they say to put people out of their misery? Yes. Did they say to actually -- they wanted to know how to get them out of their misery.
FREED (voice-over): To be clear, Butler says she didn't see anyone perform a mercy killing. And she says, because of her personal beliefs, she never would have participated.
But at least one doctor there, Bryant King, is convinced it went beyond just talk.
KING: Most people know that something -- something happened that shouldn't have happened.
FREED: What Dr. King says he witnessed is a key element of an investigation by the Louisiana attorney general. The state constitution expressly forbids euthanasia. And prosecutors say charges could include manslaughter.
In exclusive interviews with CNN, Dr. King says he was approached at about 9:00 a.m. on Thursday in the despair three days after the hurricane by another doctor. According to King, that doctor recounted a conversation with a hospital administrator and another doctor, who suggested that patients be put out of their misery.
KING: I mean, you got to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidding me, that you actually think that that's a good idea. I mean, how could you possibly think that that's a good idea?
And she said, well, you know, we talked about it, and this other doctor said she'd be -- she'd be willing to -- she would be willing to do it. I was like, you're crazy.
FREED: King says, at the time, he dismissed the talk, because the doctor who had told him of the mercy-killing conversation indicated that, like him, she opposed it.
(on camera): Then, about three hours later, King says he noticed an uneasy quiet. The triage area, where he was working, on the second floor had been cleared of everyone, except for patients, a second hospital administrator and two doctors, including the one who had first raised the question of mercy killing. (voice-over): King says the administrator asked if they wanted to join in prayer, something they had not done since the ordeal began.
KING: I looked around. And one of the other physicians, not the one who had the conversation with me, but another, had a handful of syringes. I don't know what's in the syringes. I don't know what is -- and the only thing I heard her say is, I'm going to give you something to make you feel better.
I don't know what she was going -- what she was going to give them. But we hadn't been given -- we hadn't been giving medications like that, to make people feel better or any sort of palliative care or anything like that. We hadn't been doing that up to this point.
FREED: King says he decided he would have no part of what he was saying. He grabbed his bag to leave. And he says, one of the other doctors hugged him.
King says he doesn't know what happened next. He boarded a boat and left the hospital. As for nurse manager Fran Butler, she says she never saw any patients euthanized. However, she said the physician who had expressed opposition to euthanasia to Dr. King also spoke to her about it.
BUTLER: She was the first person to approach me about putting patients to sleep.
FREED (on camera): Were you stunned?
BUTLER: Just kind of -- I kind of blew it off because of the person who said it. But when this doctor approached me about that, she made the comment to me on how she was totally against it and wouldn't do it.
FREED (voice-over): Tenet Healthcare, the company that owns Memorial, told CNN that many of the 45 patients who died were critically ill.
Tenet said, as many as 11 patients who were found in the morgue had died the weekend before the hurricane. Twenty-four of the dead had been patients of a long-term acute care facility known as LifeCare, that rented space inside Memorial.
KING: And there was only one person that died overnight. The previous day, there were only two. So, for there to be -- from Thursday to Friday, for there to be 10 times that many just doesn't make sense to me.
FREED: Earlier this month, King repeated his account to investigators from the attorney general's office. At the request of the attorney general, coroner Frank Minyard is performing autopsies and drug screens on all the Memorial dead.
He confirmed to CNN that state officials have told him they think euthanasia may have been committed. DR. FRANK MINYARD, ORLEANS PARISH CORONER: Well, they thought that someone had -- had -- was going around, injecting people with some sort of lethal medication, yes.
FREED: Minyard says that, because of the condition of the bodies, it may be difficult to determine why so many patients died at Memorial.
In early October, Tenet Healthcare said that the state had executed search warrants of Memorial Center records and that the independent LifeCare facility operated inside the hospital.
Over the course of several weeks, CNN has reached the three people King says were in the second-floor area with him at the time he saw the syringes. The hospital administrator told CNN, "I don't recall being in a room with patients or saying a prayer," later adding that King must be lying.
The doctor King identifies as having first broached the subject of euthanasia with him said she would not talk to the media. The doctor King alleges held the syringes spoke by phone with CNN on several occasions, emphasizing how everyone inside the hospital felt abandoned.
"We did everything humanly possible to save these patients," the doctor told CNN. "The government totally abandoned us to die, in the houses, in the streets, in the hospitals. Maybe a lot of us made mistakes, but we made the best decisions we could at the time."
When told about King's allegation, this doctor responded that she would not comment either way.
Nurse manager Fran Butler says that, while some nurses did discuss euthanasia, they never stopped caring for the patients.
BUTLER: The people who were still there, they really and truly took and put their heart and souls into every patient, whether that patient lived or died.
FREED: For his part, King regrets leaving the hospital and wonders whether there was anything he could have done.
KING: I'd rather be considered a person who abandoned patients than someone who aided in eliminating patients.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FREED: Anderson, the two health care companies we mentioned in this piece both chose to give CNN prepared statements.
Tenet Healthcare corporation said, "In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the physicians and staff at Memorial Medical Center performed heroically to save the lives of their patients under incredibly difficult circumstances." The statement goes on, saying: "We understand that the Louisiana attorney general is investigating all deaths that occurred at New Orleans hospitals and nursing homes after the hurricane. And we fully support and are cooperating with him."
Now, LifeCare, the long-term acute care facility, said that LifeCare employees at Memorial Medical Center during that week exhibited heroism under the most difficult of circumstances. LifeCare is not aware of any -- any discussions involving euthanasia at Memorial Medical Center -- Anderson.
COOPER: Jonathan, let's just be clear. Has anyone told CNN, or, as far as we know, told the Louisiana attorney general's office if they actually witnessed euthanasia, mercy killings, being performed at Memorial Hospital?
FREED: Yes, that's the question, Anderson.
Nobody we have talked to says that they saw euthanasia. And it is not clear who has told what to the attorney general.
COOPER: And -- and -- and what do you know at this point about the attorney general's investigation?
FREED: Well, we talked to Dr. King shortly after he left the hospital. And we know that the attorney general's office interviewed him for the first time last week.
Now, he tells us that, among other things, he was asked to identify hospital staff from photos that the investigators had brought with them.
COOPER: So, what -- what Dr. King basically has said is that he saw, took part in discussions, about mercy killings, but he did not actually see any?
FREED: That is right.
He said that that subject was discussed with him and that when he perceived that it was about to happen, he decided that he had to leave the hospital. That's what he says he did.
COOPER: Jonathan Freed, appreciate the story. And I know you are going to keep working on it, find out more.
Thanks very much.
The allegations -- and they are just allegations at this point -- raise so many questions. What should doctors have done in that situation? What would you do in that situation? What would you want done for your mother or your father if they were a patient at that hospital?
Later in the program, we are going to talk with a pair of experts on medicine and ethics.
But, first, more on the investigation and what the bodies of those who died there at Memorial Hospital can tell us.
For that, we turn to Dr. Cyril Wecht, the coroner of Allegheny County. That's Pittsburgh to those of us outside Steeler country.
Good to see you, Doctor.
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good evening.
COOPER: Thanks very much for being with us.
WECHT: Good evening.
COOPER: The New Orleans coroner is going to -- is already in the process of performing autopsies on these bodies, severely decomposed bodies. How likely is it that the coroner can determine whether or not people were euthanized?
WECHT: It's going to be very difficult.
There would probably have been one of three drugs, potassium chloride, which would cause a cardiac arrhythmia. And that, I believe, would be absolutely undiscoverable, because we have potassium in our bodies. And when the body decomposes, the potassium and sodium that are present within the cells and the intracellular fluid then mix up. And you cannot tell what any level is validly -- the other two categories, morphine and Demerol and major painkillers, and the other category, barbiturates and sedatives.
Now, if one does extensive toxicological analyses, you may be able to find significant levels. The problem is going to be that these bodies are so extensively and severely decomposed, by virtue of the month or so that has passed, the tremendous heat, the humidity, the absence of refrigeration, at least at the beginning -- Dr. Minyard, who is a very competent guy, a colleague, an old friend of mine, as coroner, he's going to have a difficult time.
So, he is going to do the best he can in attaining tissues. You're not -- he's not going to be able to determine if somebody died as a result of nature diseases, in my opinion.
COOPER: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
WECHT: Because -- well, for two reasons.
One, these people are very ill to begin with. And, number two, the internal organs are so decomposed at an advanced stage, you can't say, hey, here's a myocardial infarction.
COOPER: Right.
WECHT: Here's a pulmonary embolism.
COOPER: But, now, do all these three drugs, the potassium chloride, the morphine, Demerol, or the barbiturate sedatives, these three categories, do they all have to be present in order to...
WECHT: Oh, no. No, no, no. I was saying one of the three would have been used if -- if -- and we're both saying if -- if euthanasia had been undertaken.
COOPER: OK. Now, if...
WECHT: Then that -- it would be one of the three.
COOPER: If -- if the intention had just been palliative care, to ease suffering, as opposed to end life, is that something that could be determined? I mean, even -- even...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Even if they see, they're -- OK, there's morphine in this person's system, is it a question of degrees of morphine?
WECHT: Yes. Yes.
The potassium chloride, forget about, because you would not be giving that to ameliorate anybody's pain and suffering -- morphine and heroin for pain. And you shouldn't be giving that, because they're not having really physical pain. They're having emotional pain and suffering and distress, etcetera.
The sedation, arguably, could be given to somebody in order to tranquilize and so on. But, as you say, the levels will be important. If there are levels that are very, very high, then Dr. Minyard and his toxicological people are going to be able to say, hey, this is just too much and it doesn't fit in with any clinical scenario.
COOPER: Hmm.
WECHT: If it's a level that is just, you know, a little high, then the doctors and nurses are going to say, hey, we had to give this. These people who were in terrible distress and we did what was humane.
I -- I just would like to make -- make a quick comment that the two positions, you see, are -- are -- are -- are not mutually exclusive. I have no doubt that those doctors and nurses did everything that they could to make people comfortable. So, it doesn't mean that they had to be monsters.
But it doesn't also -- it -- neither does it mean that they might not have decided, in an act of humanitarianism and great sensitivity, compassion, and empathy, to say, hey, you know, we are going to not allow this person to suffer.
WECHT: So, you know, you have got to keep that in mind here. You are not dealing with -- with horrible people. But it's a bad call. If anybody did it, it violates the basic tenets, which I'm sure you will be getting into, of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Muslim religion and every other religion.
COOPER: And the Hippocratic oath on top of that.
WECHT: Yes.
COOPER: Doctor...
WECHT: Yes.
COOPER: Dr. Wecht...
WECHT: Exactly.
COOPER: It's always fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much...
WECHT: Thank you.
COOPER: ... for that.
WECHT: Thanks.
We are going to have a lot more on this coming up over the course of the next two hours. I will also talk to the attorney general.
Up next, another storm, another part of the country -- lives lost, homes destroyed, towns evacuated. We are not talking about New Orleans. We are talking about New England. And the rain continues to fall there.
Plus, three New Orleans police officers on the defensive because of this video. Their lawyer now says the man beaten was a "belligerent drunk," in his words. His allegations will surprise you. You will hear them coming from himself coming up on NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We have seen pictures like this all over the Northeast, these pictures from Almstead (sic), New Hampshire, a town particularly hard-hit by -- by rains and floodwaters.
And you see there the river jumping its banks, destroys some roads. For the sixth day in a row, the Northeast has been hammered by heavy downpours that have washed away bridges and homes and even lives.
Three people are confirmed dead in New Hampshire. Four others are missing there. And the forecast for more rain is only making matters worse.
CNN meteorologist Rob Marciano is live in Hartford, Connecticut, with the latest on the dangerous weather.
Rob, good evening.
ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hi, Anderson.
A bit of a break from the rain tonight, although it was raining for most of the day today. We are in a break, but, anticipating, like you said, more rain to come. There could be torrential rains coming up in the next 48 hours, over what's already saturated ground, really, across all of the Northeast. We start you off with -- with a story that has been developing over the past couple of days, where they have been fatalities across New Hampshire -- still missing people, mostly from rivers that rose quickly and washed out hillsides and took homes away as well.
A lot of this water has to come south and head towards the ocean. Uxbridge, Mississippi -- Massachusetts -- saw six inches of rainfall in the last few days. They, too, have some flooding.
Here in Hartford, only a half-inch today. You know, that's not a whole lot compared to what we have seen the last couple of days. The Connecticut River, which slices right the heart of this town, was over flood stage earlier. It has since receded, at least for now.
Farther to the south, Morristown, New Jersey, six days in a row of consistent rainfall there, streets, at the very least, ponding, making -- making for dangerous driving conditions -- some streets completely flooded out, making them impassable.
Big towns around the New York City area have seen similar conditions. And that's going to be the worry for the next several days, as our next batch of rainfall is going to come on board.
But what has gone on in the last 24 hours? Let's talk rainfall tallies for some of the bigger cities on the outskirts of the metropolitan New York area. And these are some of the numbers. Riverhead, New York, 7.1 inches of rainfall -- Islip, New York, on Long Island, over five inches of rain -- New Haven, Connecticut, along the coast, 3.6 -- and Central Park, almost three inches -- and Newark, New Jersey, 2.4 inches -- this, for the most part, in a 24-hour time frame.
Well, what do we expect over the next 48 hours? -- after the bit of a break today, more, possibly torrential, rainfall on the way. This graph shows, the next two days, what we think is going to happen. The White House indicates three inches or more. And those areas include North jersey, Southeast New York, basically, the Hudson River Valley.
Basically, the very populated area around New York City will see potentially more rains that could -- will cause more widespread flooding. And that's what we're worried about over the next two days -- Anderson...
COOPER: It has just...
MARCIANO: ... back to you.
COOPER: It has just been miserable.
COOPER: Rob, thanks very much.
Christi Paul from Headline News joins us with some of the day's other top stories right now.
Hey, Christi. CHRISTI PAUL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Anderson.
Get ready to pay more for staying warm this winter. A government report says most of us will probably pay one third more in heating bills. You can blame Katrina and Rita for this. The report says it's because of the hurricanes' impact on energy production.
And move over, basic iPods. Video iPod is here and, already, demanding attention. Apple's latest launch holds up to 15,000 songs, 25,000 photos or up to 150 hours of video. You can watch music videos, home videos and some TV shows on a two-and-a-half-inch screen.
Singer-turned-disc-jockey-and-record producer Boy George could face up to 15 years in prison if convicted on charges of drug possession. Boy George, whose real name is George O'Dowd, was arrested in Manhattan on Friday and later released after he called police to report a burglary in his apartment. Now, police arrived and discovered 13 plastic bags of cocaine. The singer says he has no idea how the coke got in the apartment.
And one of the sexiest female actresses of the 20th century apparently hated sex. But that, of course, didn't deter countless men from chasing after Marlene Dietrich -- Dietrich, I should say.
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL: The sultry icon was also schizophrenic, in case you didn't know. That's according to her daughter Maria Riva.
In an interview with a German magazine, Riva said her mom was -- quote -- "a totally normal schizophrenic."
I'm not sure what that means, Anderson.
(CROSSTALK)
PAUL: But, if anybody would know, I suppose she would.
COOPER: That's right. I have actually seen her daughter interviewed in -- in a number of documentaries about Marlene Dietrich. And she never said that. So, it's odd that she has come out and said that now.
Christi, thanks for that.
PAUL: Sure.
COOPER: There -- there's -- Christi had mentioned her attitudes towards sex. There's actually a pretty surprising new online survey about sex and Americans' attitudes towards sex and their sexual habits. We are going to talk about that in the next hour on NEWSNIGHT.
And, if you have questions you'd like to ask, we are assembling a panel of experts on the subject. Tonight, you can ask our experts any of your questions about sex. You can call, toll-free, 877-648-3639 or send us an e-mail with your question to NEWSNIGHT@CNN.com.
Sex therapists Laura Berman and Ian Kerner will answer some of your questions in the next hour.
Still to come in this hour, going home. Can you imagine? How would you feel going home for the first time to see what is left after Katrina?
Also, the key to ending the killing in Iraq may be in controlling the border between Iraq and Syria.
CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, has an exclusive interview with Syria's president, Bashar al-Assad.
That's all ahead. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back to NEWSNIGHT.
It's not often we hear from Syria's president, not often he agrees to be interviewed. Tonight, a CNN exclusive. This is the president's first major interview in five years.
And he chose to sit down with CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you very much, Mr. President Bashar al-Assad.
BASHAR AL-ASSAD, PRESIDENT OF SYRIA: You're most welcome in Syria
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
There are people who believe -- and very probably, the U.N. investigation will say this -- that Syria is behind the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri. Would you have ordered such an assassination?
AL-ASSAD: This is against our principle and my principle. And I would never do such a thing in my life.
What would we achieve? What do we achieve? I think what happened targeted Syria. That will affect our relation with the Lebanese people and with most other countries. So we wouldn't do it, because it's against our interest, and it's against my principle. I would never do it. It's impossible.
AMANPOUR: If many Syrians are implicated, is it possible that such an act, such a crime, could have taken place by Syrian officials without your knowledge?
AL-ASSAD: I don't think so. As I said, if that happened, this is treason.
AMANPOUR: Treason?
AL-ASSAD: Treason. This is treason.
AMANPOUR: The United States is extremely angry with you and your government. It accuses you of facilitating, providing haven, and now actively supporting the insurgency in Iraq. What are you going to do to stop doing all that, to stop allowing the insurgents into Iraq?
AL-ASSAD: I wouldn't say this is true. It's completely wrong.
You have many aspects of the problem. The first aspect is no country can control his border completely. An example is the border between the United States and Mexico.
And many American officials told me, We cannot control our border with Mexico. But at the end, what they end up saying, You should control your border with Iraq.
This is impossible. And I told Mr. Powell that for the first time we met after the war. I told him, it's impossible to control the border.
AMANPOUR: What is your condition for helping the United States? And are you prepared to help the United States?
AL-ASSAD: You mean in Iraq?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
AL-ASSAD: Definitely. We don't have any problem. And we said that publicly.
They talk about stable Iraq. We have a direct interest in a stable Iraq. They talk about the unified Iraq. We have direct interest in unified Iraq. They talk about supporting the political process. We have interest in that. That would help the stability. So there's no differences. It is -- we don't know what they want. I think they don't know what they want.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: That was CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour with that exclusive.
Back to New Orleans in a moment. The lawyer for the cops that beat a man bloody has a lot to say. Some of it, well, it might stop you in your tracks. That's ahead on NEWSNIGHT.
Also, the children of the quake -- stories of incredible courage and survival and heartache, and there are so many of them around the country and the world. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Well, we have all seen that video a lot. In a moment, you're going to hear a lawyer doing his job, defending his client, New Orleans police officers suspending and accused of brutalizing that 64- year-old man you just saw.
But how he defends the clients and the charges that he himself is going to level tonight against the victim may truly surprise you. First, we bring you the day's developments. From New Orleans tonight, here's CNN's Dan Simon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three New Orleans police officers on the defensive, fighting for their jobs, fighting for their reputations.
FRANK DESALVO, ATTORNEY FOR NEW ORLEANS POLICE OFFICERS: What we'd like to do is to lay out the facts.
SIMON: The officers appeared somber as their attorney, Frank DeSalvo, did the talking.
DESALVO: They did what they did based on what was placed before them and what reasonable police authority was at the time.
SIMON: Everything that happened on Bourbon Street Saturday night, he claimed, the struggle, the takedown, and the injuries to 64- year-old Robert Davis, were brought on by Davis himself.
DESALVO: His speech was slurred. He was belligerent. He told the officers to go F. themselves and pushes away -- pushed them away in an attempt to get away.
SIMON: And when trying to get away, the officers say, Davis put his hands in his waist band, which, to them, meant a possible gun.
DESALVO: That's a reasonable concern that the officers would have any time a man puts his hands toward his waist band. That's -- that's law enforcement 101. Don't let a guy put his hands in his waist band.
SIMON: But Davis had no weapon and has said repeatedly he hadn't been drinking and did nothing to deserve such a pummeling.
SIMON: The retired schoolteacher also made a public showing at the New Orleans Amtrak station, now a municipal courthouse. He pled not guilty to the charges, which include public drunkenness, resisting arrest and battery. His attorney says the videotape is all the evidence they need to prove that Davis is a harmless victim of overzealous police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The videotape is extraordinary evidence, because, you know, guys, let's be realistic. Without the videotape, he'd be just another drunk. That's how they -- that's how they -- that's how these things are handled.
SIMON: Davis is charged with a misdemeanor. So, too, are the officers. But the Orleans Parish district attorney is investigating, hinting he may file more serious charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the tape is very, strong evidence of the use of excessive force. And it would certainly, I think, meet all the requirements for a violation of state law, either simple battery or second-degree battery.
SIMON: Meanwhile, the officers, suspended without pay, are looking for new work, which they hope is only temporary.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON: Now, in terms of overall defense strategy, it seems Mr. DeSalvo is trying to shift focus to those two FBI agents who were at the scene. He claims that Mr. Davis' injuries happened when one of those agents forced him to ground. Now, at this point, the FBI's saying its guys acted properly, but nonetheless, it is conducting its investigation, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, he's got a couple of different strategies going on. Talking about the FBI is certainly one of them. You're about to hear some others in a moment. Dan, thanks very much.
You heard a bit from Frank DeSalvo a moment ago. Fair to say, you ain't heard nothing yet. We spoke with him at length earlier this evening.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Frank, in the video, it seems to clearly show these officers or one officer hitting Mr. Davis repeatedly either in the back of the neck or the lower part of the head region. Do you believe that is the case?
DESALVO: Oh, sure, that's the case. That happened. We know that.
COOPER: So, an officer did repeatedly hit Mr. Davis in the back of the head or the upper part of the neck, lower part of the head region?
DESALVO: Certainly he did. What happened was they were trying to handcuff him. They had his left handcuffed and behind the back and his right hand, he kept putting it in his waist band and trying to keep them from being it able to pull it around and cuff him. And they struck him with the intention of striking him until they were able to cuff him.
He was able to resist each of those blows and resist being cuffed until an FBI agent saw him resisting and came to the aid of the two officers and actually tackled him, brought him down to the ground -- that's when he hit the face on the ground. Then, when they tried to cuff him, they maced him twice, pepper prayed him twice and then hit him around his shoulder and neck again until they ultimately got his right hand behind and had him cuffed. That's the sequence.
COOPER: Does it seem proper police procedure to you to hit somebody in the back of the neck and/or in the lower part of the head region?
DESALVO: You've got to hit him where you can, but that's certainly proper procedure.
COOPER: Wait. You've got to hit them -- you've got to hit them where you -- it's common procedure just to hit somebody wherever you can?
DESALVO: Well, in that situation, you want to hit them around the neck and the shoulder, the back of the head to get them to bring their right arm around.
COOPER: Every police officer I've talked to about this -- and we called the superintendent's office -- they say it is absolutely not police procedure to hit somebody in the head or the back of the neck. It is just too dangerous.
DESALVO: Well, you need to talk to some different experts because I have talked to several of them who have called me from all over the country who want to come testify on their behalf. They will.
COOPER: Well, I talked to a captain from Alabama last night who testifies, who's an expert witness in trials and teaches in police academies. He says just absolutely you just never do that and the superintendent's office of New Orleans says it is not police procedure to hit someone in that region.
DESALVO: Well, there will be other experts to testify and you will be able to listen to them in court if you want to.
COOPER: Because you have been saying now for days that this is the procedure in New Orleans. I'm wondering, do you have it written down somewhere? Is there a book that says that?
DESALVO: It's not a book. It is what's taught in the academy. Maybe some other people need refresher courses.
COOPER: Where are you getting that information that's taught in the academy?
DESALVO: I'm getting it from several police officers that went to the academy.
COOPER: You are also representing the officer who pushed an Associated Press producer -- basically pushed him backwards onto a car, gesticulating at him, yelling at him. Is it your contention that his behavior justified, as well? DESALVO: Absolutely. That Associated Press producer's behavior was totally improper. That officer was answering a call for help with the other two officers. As he was going through the crowd, he pushed passed that Associated Press producer.
That Associated Press producer grabbed him by the arm, spun him around, stuck his credentials in his face, saying like I can do what I want to do. I'm the press. And that's when he pushed him up against the car, told him what he said, and then left to go help his fellow officers.
COOPER: OK, because again, the superintendent who I have spoken to has said that under no circumstances is that the way you deal with any member, not just of the media, but just any member of the public. There was no reason to push this guy against the car, jab your finger in his face and yell expletives at him and ...
DESALVO: He probably shouldn't have yelled the expletives, but other than that, it was certainly police procedure.
COOPER: There were several officers, the FBI agent included, who you mentioned, trying to restrain this 64-year-old man when he was on the ground. But when you look at the tape, was this controlled at all? Because one officer seems to be, you know, putting him in a headlock. There's some guy grabbing his leg and kind of pushing his leg up. Another person seems to be turning him over, while another person seems to punch him a couple of times. Was this chaos?
DESALVO: That was because he didn't stop moving, didn't stop squirming. The most important thing that you got to look at in that tape is once he was cuffed, anything stopped. There was no longer any punching. There was no struggling...
COOPER: This is the point where the blood is dripping out of his mouth and pouring out of his head. That's when things calmed down?
DESALVO: Well, certainly. I mean, they're not hitting him, causing him to bleed after he's -- after he was cuffed.
COOPER: Well, actually, sir -- actually, sir, they did. They kicked him twice to encourage him not to turn over. Have you seen that part of the tape?
DESALVO: I've seen it, and they certainly didn't kick him. They just put the foot on him to push him back down. You're editorializing what you're seeing on that tape. What you see on that tape was a very simple tap with his foot, to get back down, not get up, to keep the thing from escalating.
What you fail to accept is that this man was so intoxicated that he stumbled into a police horse, and for his own safety, he was brought over by the policemen. They asked him where they could take him, if he had a friend where he could -- where he could go and be safe. He said, go f yourselves, and then tried to push away and get away. You know, he brought this on, and all -- all the violence escalated because of him. And when they had him cuffed, it ended. That's police procedure.
COOPER: You contend that Mr. Davis was intoxicated. There was no breathalyzer given to him, either on the street or even once he was in custody. Is that correct?
DESALVO: I can prove that he's a belligerent drunk.
COOPER: How can you prove that, sir?
DESALVO: Well, you got to wait for the trial. I am not going to expose my hand.
COOPER: So you're saying he is, what, a belligerent drunk that night? Or he says he hasn't had a drink in some 20-odd years?
DESALVO: Well, if you believe that, I want to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. And he's also a drug addict. And we can prove that.
COOPER: OK, you're saying he is a drug addict and a drunk, but he was not breathalyzed to your knowledge when in police custody?
DESALVO: There is no authority to do that. There's only one circumstance in the law in Louisiana where you can force a blood test or a breath test, and that's in a -- in a driving while intoxicated case, when somebody is severely injured or dead.
COOPER: You have no physical evidence, apparently, from a breathalyzer. So I mean, you're saying you can prove on that night he was absolutely drunk?
DESALVO: Oh, sure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: A quick footnote or two on what Mr. DeSalvo said about appropriate force and Mr. Davis. We made some calls after the interview. I spoke off the record with police officers from New Orleans, and on the record with the police superintendent's office -- people from our office did -- and independent experts.
All of them say that punching in the back of the head and the neck is not -- repeat, not -- police procedure, and is not something they teach in any police academy in Louisiana or anywhere in the United States, as far as police officers we talked to could ascertain.
As for Mr. DeSalvo's allegation that Mr. Davis is, quote, "a belligerent drunk," Mr. Davis' lawyer issued this statement. Quote -- "My client has opened his soul and volunteered in his first interview that he had a problem with narcotics and alcohol 25 years ago, and has since -- and has been straight since. Bottom line, he has not touched anything since." The statement goes on to say: "I'm sorry that it is a tactic Mr. DeSalvo is taking. It is inappropriate. My client has come forward without anger, and is not including the entire police department, just -- not indicting the entire police department, just a couple of bad guys."
All of this no doubt will be dealt with in court.
The long trip back home, coming up. Exiles of Katrina from the worst hit part of New Orleans return to see what, if anything, remains.
Also tonight, faith and family. A couple welcoming their 16th child into the world. And they are hoping for even more children. This is "NEWSNIGHT."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, just ahead, we take you back to New Orleans, where people living in the lower 9th Ward briefly returned home today to see what's left, and some of it was shocking.
But first, at about a quarter until the hour, it's time once again to check on the headlines with Christi Paul in Atlanta. Hey, Christi.
PAUL: Hey, Anderson.
A powerful aftershock rattled buildings and nerves across northern Pakistan today. Desperate survivors mobbed trucks carrying food and water. Four days after a deadly quake that killed or injured tens of thousands, international aid is beginning to pour in now.
Twenty-three-year-old Georgia man has been arrested on charges of stealing a charter jet and flying it from Florida to Georgia. The nine-passenger jet turned up over the weekend at an airport in suburban Atlanta. An investigator says it wasn't a terrorist act, most likely just a joyride.
Microsoft and Yahoo announced today they're linking their free instant messaging services. The deal creates an instant messaging community of 275 million users. It also presents an Internet challenge to AOL, the current instant messaging leader, and to newcomer Google.
An Arkansas woman, Michelle Duggar, has just delivered, get this, her 16th child. Little Joanna Faith Duggar was born Tuesday. She weighs 7 pounds, 6.5 ounces. Michelle says, do you believe this? She's ready to do it again, and that she just loves kids. Her growing family is getting a lot of attention. The Discovery Channel is doing a story about Joanna's birth. The Learning Channel is doing another show about the family's home expansion project, which, Anderson, I have to believe must be pretty hefty at this point.
COOPER: I would imagine also sort of an ongoing project. She just keeps on ...
PAUL: Just going and going, yeah.
COOPER: Keeps going and going, yeah. Christi, thanks very much.
You know, for the first time since Katrina, residents in New Orleans lower 9th Ward were allowed to return, but what awaited them was really beyond words. One man, in fact, found the body of his grandmother inside her home, a victim of the storm. He says he's never coming back, but others, given this brief look-and-leave tour are vowing to return. CNN's Alina Cho reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Keith Calhoun and wife Chandra have not seen their home in the lower 9th Ward since Hurricane Katrina until now. It is not pretty.
KEITH CALHOUN, LOWER NINTH WARD RESIDENT: This is it.
CHANDRA MCCORMICK, LOWER NINTH WARD RESIDENT: It's just a mess.
CHO: The home they've owned for 12 years in the historic Holy Cross section has been flattened.
CALHOUN: Basically, we just got to start over.
CHO: Chandra says there is a hidden blessing.
MCCORMICK: This is not good at all, but we have each other and we have our family, and that's going to keep us going.
CHO: The couple, along with their two children, have temporarily settled in Texas. For six weeks, they've been waiting to come back.
(on camera): Keith and Chandra are documentary photographers. They've been taking pictures of everyday life here on these streets for the past 25 years. So when Hurricane Katrina came through, they not only lost their home, they lost a lifetime of work.
MCCORMICK: That was what I wanted to come back here for, you know, mainly to just see if I had anything of my work.
CHO (voice-over): There is not much, if anything, that is salvageable. So Keith begins a new chapter of documenting, taking pictures of what's left of his home. Later, the couple checks on Chandra's mother's home. There's a surprise. They found boxes of their photos, pictures that tell the story of the lower 9th Ward.
CALHOUN: Do you see these men? Lifting two sacks? They were working for their money, despite how hard they worked, you know? They was able to take care of their family. And we leave this life back in the city.
CHO: The lower 9, as locals call it, is home to Fats Domino, a place where corner grocery stores are called "superettes," where historically, blacks in New Orleans have found affordable housing. It's a place where neighbors say good morning and good night. It's why the couple says it's important to rebuild, why their family will be back.
CALHOUN: This is where we come back to. At least now I know what I'm facing. I know that, hey, you know, you don't have nothing no more, but you've got to keep going. CHO: Alina Cho, CNN, New Orleans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: You've just got to keep going. Still to come, a grief no one should bear. We take you to South Asia, where earthquake survivors bury their young and try to make sense out of the senseless. This is "NEWSNIGHT."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the style of a warrior queen, Margaret Thatcher became Britain's first woman prime minister in 1979. The Iron Lady restored Britain's clout in the world, with her own brand of popular capitalism, termed "Thatcherism," and some powerful friends. Thatcher went to war with Argentina over the Falkland Islands, and won. And she broke the power of Britain's trade unions. She won three elections, but was ousted by her party in 1990, but she didn't go quietly.
MARGARET THATCHER, FMR. BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: When the right honorable gentleman's windy rhetoric has blown away...
(LAUGHTER)
THATCHER: I'm enjoying this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thatcher retired from Parliament in 1992 and was given the title baroness, but politics remained her passion. She retired from public speaking in 2002, but her life took a sad turn. Her husband, Dennis, died in 2003 and her son, Mark, has faced court proceedings in South Africa over his alleged part in an attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea.
Thatcher turns 80 years old this year, and still has the spirit of a battling politician. Her style of negotiations made handbagging a verb.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It has been said that disasters can bring out the best of humanity. And there was another example of that today. India, a country that has fought three wars with Pakistan and has had its finger on the nuclear button, today sent a relief plane to its neighbor, to help Pakistan cope with the devastation caused by Saturday's earthquake.
That relief comes amid more aftershocks. A strong one hit today, magnitude 5.6.
Rescue efforts are focusing more on recovery, as the hope of finding survivors fades. The death toll so far exceeds 20,000, maybe as high as 42,000. They simply don't know.
A lot of the victims, we do know, are children. ITN's Bill Neely reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL NEELY, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They call this place the roof of the world. But on their mountains now, the beauty is terrible, and the dead children are everywhere.
They're tough people, but they have never been tested like this. The death toll is climbing towards 40,000, as one by one, the remotest towns and villages report their loss.
We took the often hazardous road towards China today, to hear their story.
What you hear is the sound of hunger and need. The charity workers can barely cope with the crush. Along the road, aid is tossed from a lorry to villagers who have had none for five days.
This is battle, and it's scarred for life. A village that's lost half its children and most of its homes. And from its government, it's received nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just make some promises with us. We are sending this thing, this thing to you. But so far, there's nothing.
NEELY: There are no aid agencies here, no food distribution, no medical teams from their government to treat the injured. And wherever you look, the injured and the dead are being taken down the hills for help.
They are bruised and crushed and broken. In this field, we find around a dozen children. The bandages basic -- the work of a worried medical student.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people have amputated legs, amputated hands, amputated this, and severe trauma to the chest. In this condition, people are coming here.
NEELY (on camera): In every town across this vast area, there is tragedy. In this girl's high school, 60 children were killed when the roof collapsed. In every place, in every village, it's the same story. One of great loss, of great need, and of a great anger at a government that could do much, much more.
Bill Neely, ITV News, Battle (ph), Pakistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Just remember, that -- that earthquake took place on Saturday. It is now Wednesday. The amount of suffering there continues day after day. These stories that are coming out are just extraordinary.
The heartbreak and mystery coming up surrounding another natural disaster. When we come back, what happened at a hospital in New Orleans in 110-degree heat, with the water rising and no help in sight? Did doctors and nurses turn to mercy killing? Killing their own patients?
Also, the flooding right here, right now. How much worse can it get in the northeast?
And later, does all the mayhem add up to something more? Not global warming, but global ending? The end of days. Pat Robertson has weighed in. Tonight, we'll take it up with the Reverend Jerry Falwell before the end of "NEWSNIGHT."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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