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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Lewis Scooter Libby Indicted in CIA Investigation; Karl Rove Off the Hook?; Inside an Intelligence Meltdown
Aired October 28, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
It began with 16 words uttered by the president about Iraq and nuclear weapons, only 16 words in a very long speech. It became a battle and a scandal, and now, perhaps, a crime.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Vice President Cheney's chief of staff is indicted. After two years of secretive digging, the special prosecutor sends shockwaves through the Bush White House.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Special counsel Fitzgerald's investigation and ongoing legal proceedings are serious.
ANNOUNCER: Suzanne Malveaux tonight on just how serious.
Lewis Scooter Libby, described as second only to Karl Rove in the White House inner circle, resigned immediately and could face 30 years in prison. Gary Tuchman gets more on the man behind the controversy.
President Bush's deputy chief of staff, Karl Rove, is off the hook, or is he?
PATRICK FITZGERALD, U.S. ATTORNEY: I will not end the investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them that we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently.
ANNOUNCER: John King looks at the future of the president's top adviser.
And, if Libby lied, there's this question: Why? David Ensor on the indictments and how the U.S. justified war with Saddam.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN AND ANDERSON COOPER.
Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, here's Aaron Brown.
BROWN: Good evening, again.
As Larry said, Anderson is off tonight. The story of how we got from uranium in Africa to a reporter in jail, to a White House under siege, is only half-written tonight, at best. There are many more chapters to come, many questions to be answered, not the least of which is why, if true, did a smart and incredibly savvy White House insider lie so obviously to investigators? And did he do it, if he did it, to protect his boss, the vice president? There is that, and more.
But, also, there is also this, the plain and powerful words of a federal prosecutor with a reputation for playing it straight. Laws were broken, he said, not technicalities, but laws.
A full night on this tonight, a full house, CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, John King in Washington, David Ensor as well.
And we begin with Ms. Malveaux -- Suzanne.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The cloud that has been hanging over the Bush administration for nearly two years from the CIA leak investigation finally broke. Scooter Libby was a trusted member of Mr. Bush's most inner circle, but the five-count indictment of vice president Cheney's chief of staff is not the end of the probe.
KARL ROVE, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: I'm going to have a great Friday and a fantastic weekend. Hope you do, too.
MALVEAUX: Karl Rove, the president's top political adviser, escaped indictment today, but his lawyer says he remains under investigation.
FITZGERALD: I will not end the investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them that we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently.
MALVEAUX: A beleaguered Mr. Bush, departing for his Camp David retreat, tried to soften the blow.
BUSH: While we're all saddened by today's news, we remain focused on the many issues and opportunities facing this country. I've got a job to do; so do the people that work in the White House.
MALVEAUX: White House insiders say they are saddened by Libby's departure but are relieved that Rove seemed to have been spared.
Cheney, who stuck to his schedule of fund-raising and rallying Georgia troops, said in a written statement he accepted his top lieutenant's resignation will deep regret: "Scooter Libby is one of the most capable and talented individuals I have ever known. He has given many years of his life to public service and has served our nation tirelessly and with great distinction."
In a statement of his own, Libby said, "I'm confident that, at the end of this process, I will be completely and totally exonerated."
BUSH: I look forward to working with Congress on policies to keep this economy moving.
MALVEAUX: For President Bush, the strategy is to pivot towards his political agenda.
AMY WALTER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The question now is, can this White House get that famous first-term focus back? That is the real challenge.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Certainly, he needs some fresh blood. He needs to focus on big, bold things.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And, Aaron, of course, one of those big things that he's talking about is picking his Supreme Court nominee.
We're told by White House aides that could happen within days. Interesting enough, too, the strategy of the White House -- we saw two memos that went out to White House staffers late in the day, one from Chief of Staff Andy Card, saying, look, your job first and foremost is to serve the American people, the second one from White House counsel, which simply said that they should not reach out to Scooter Libby to discuss this case in any way, that it is still an ongoing investigation -- Aaron.
BROWN: Suzanne, thank you very much -- Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.
This all began, as I'm sure you know by now, with Ambassador Joe Wilson's trip to Niger back in February of 2002. He had nothing to say on camera when reached at his home today. He did release a statement through his lawyer: "It is certainly not a day to celebrate," the statement reads.
It goes on to say: "When an indictment is delivered at the front door of the White House, the office of the president is defiled. No citizen can take pleasure from that."
Almost from the beginning, this story has been a story and a puzzle with three dimensions, policy and politics, and ,of course, the law. Before we get any further into all three, here are the charges facing Mr. Libby tonight, five of them, all felonies.
Count one, obstruction of justice. It alleges, Mr. Libby intentionally deceived the FBI and the grand jury about how he discovered Valerie Plame's status as a covert CIA officer. Count two, false statement, lying to the FBI about whether Ms. Plame's status was well-known, saying, falsely, the indictment alleges, that NBC's Tim Russert told him that reporters were well aware of her identity.
Count three, false statement, lying to the FBI about the content of a conversation or conversations with "TIME" magazine's Matthew Cooper. Counts four and five relate to the last two, but are classified as perjury, instead of simply making false statements, because the statements in question were made under oath to a federal grand jury.
If convicted of all five counts, Mr. Libby could receive as much as 30 years in prison.
How much of this is intended to loosen up his tongue, we simply do not know. Only the prosecutor does. And he's not saying. Patrick Fitzgerald met the press this afternoon, after two years of virtual silence. The questions must have seemed like opening a trip valve on Hoover Dam. As for his answers, he said very little about the inner workings of the investigation. Instead, what made the moment so remarkable was how plainly and how passionately he stated the case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): In trying to explain how the disclosure of a CIA agent's name evolved into an investigation that ensnared one of Washington's most powerful men, Patrick Fitzgerald put it in terms he felt most comfortable using, the language of baseball.
What would the punishment be, he asked, if a pitcher intentionally threw at the head of a batter?
FITZGERALD: And then you would make a decision as to whether this person should be banned from baseball, whether they should be suspended, whether you should do nothing at all and just say, "Hey, the person threw a bad pitch. Get over it."
In this case, it's a lot more serious than baseball. And the damage wasn't to one person. It wasn't just Valerie Wilson. It was done to all of us.
BROWN: What he decided, he said, was this.
FITZGERALD: This is a very serious matter and compromising national security information is a very serious matter. But the need to get to the bottom of what happened and whether national security was compromised by inadvertence, by recklessness, by maliciousness is extremely important.
BROWN: And this is why.
FITZGERALD: We need to know the truth. And anyone who would go into a grand jury and lie, obstruct and impede the investigation has committed a serious crime.
But if what we allege in the indictment is true, then what is charged is a very, very serious crime that will vindicate the public interest in finding out what happened here.
BROWN: And about forcing Judith Miller of "The New York Times" to jail.
FITZGERALD: No one wanted to have a dispute with "The New York Times" or anyone else. I would have wished nothing better that, when the subpoenas were issued in August 2004, witnesses testified then, and we would have been here in October 2004 instead of October 2005. No one would have went to jail. I didn't have a vested interest in litigating it. I was not looking for a First Amendment showdown.
We didn't bluff people. And what we decided to do was to make sure before we subpoenaed any reporter that we really needed that testimony.
BROWN: Testimony, he said today, that was vital to his case.
FITZGERALD: At the end of the day what appears is that Mr. Libby's story that he was at the tail end of a chain of phone calls, passing on from one reporter what he heard from another, was not true.
It was false. He was at the beginning of the chain of phone calls, the first official to disclose this information outside the government to a reporter. And then he lied about it afterwards, under oath and repeatedly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The allegations. If Mr. Fitzgerald has said little until now, the political establishment tonight is saying even less. Democratic lawmakers, by and large, are staying away from the microphones, by and large. So did a lot of Republicans. We did manage to get some reaction from Howard Dean, who is the chairman of the Democratic Party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: This is about what happens when you send people to foreign countries to fight without telling America the truth. This whole thing came about because the president wasn't truthful about why we went to Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: As for the Republican side, we spoke at some length late this afternoon with John Sununu, the senator from New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Why do you think it -- people at the vice president's right hand -- and whether this was criminal or not will be for a jury to decide -- apparently engaged in this effort to -- this is my words, certainly, not yours -- trash Ambassador Wilson?
SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, I think they felt that Ambassador Wilson was a partisan -- and he certainly was, politically speaking, a partisan -- that he may have had specific motives and goals in mind that were certainly -- was certainly counterbalanced by other evidence and other sources of intelligence- gathering at the time.
And they felt that there needed to be some sort of a balance out there. That doesn't justify the specific way that they approached it, but I think that was their concern at the time.
BROWN: Do you think the vice president, given that an important aide to the vice president, often referred to as his right-hand man, a national security adviser, that the vice president needs to answer some questions here?
SUNUNU: I don't have access to the material that was presented to the grand jury. And -- and I think the defense teams and the prosecution are perfectly capable of deciding who needs to provide information in order to fairly try the case.
BROWN: Respectfully, that's a very narrow legal answer to something, whether he needs to testify.
And, actually, if I may try the question again, I'm interested in whether you believe there are questions that the vice president needs to answer.
SUNUNU: I think you need to be specific. What kind of a -- what kind of a question? I think everyone knows what Vice President Cheney's position was on -- on intelligence, on prosecuting the war.
Certainly, people understand and know his relationship to Scooter Libby, who served him very well, very capably. So, look, if there's a specific question that you want to pose to the vice president, that the media wants to pose to him, yes, you should ask those questions.
BROWN: Well, let me try one then.
SUNUNU: Sure.
BROWN: Would you like to know if the vice president was in any way involved in discussions that led to the outing of Ms. Plame?
SUNUNU: I think that question has been largely answered in the release of the notes of the conversation that he and Scooter Libby had, that, apparently, by what's been reported and what's been presented in the way of information from the grand jury -- I guess this was one of the -- the leaks prior to the indictment -- there was a conversation between the two of them that did involve the fact that Joe Wilson's wife was an employee at the CIA.
BROWN: My question was, was he involved a decision to out her? Was he in any way involved in discussions? Did she say, yes, Scooter, that's a heck of an idea, or, don't you dare do that, or, what are you taking? Don't you want to know that?
SUNUNU: I think that's less important than whether the laws involving the disclose were violated. And I think the prosecutor has pursued that question fairly effectively and, of course, whether people have been forthcoming on the questions of perjury and cooperating with investigators.
And, on that issue, he's been very clear that he believes a law was violated, and that's why he's handed down the indictments.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Republican Senator John Sununu.
You would have a hard time knowing that there is other news to report tonight. And we have more on the indictments coming up. But here are some of the other stories we are following at this moment.
Forty-five police officers in New Orleans were fired today. They were let go for allegedly abandoning their posts, either before or after Katrina hit. Fifteen other officers have resigned.
In California, the mother of a teen accused of killing the wife of a prominent defense attorney has been released from jail. Esther Fielding was charged as an accessory to murder after the fact. But, today, police decided to drop the charges. Her son, who is 16, will be tried as an adult.
Today, the United Nations Security Council condemned recent comments by Iran's president that Israel should be wiped off the map. The Israeli government says Iran's membership in the U.N. should be revoked because of the harsh words.
And a fitting remembrance for Rosa Parks -- the mother of the civil rights movement, who died earlier in the week, will lie in honor Sunday and Monday in the Capitol Rotunda of the United States of America. Congress has authorized that right only 29 times in our country's history. And Ms. parks is the first woman to ever receive the tribute.
Back to the Libby indictment next -- this is a story, as we said at the top, with many dimensions and complications. It is still , by and large, a mystery. Ahead tonight, we look more closely at the parts and the pieces and how they fit, and more on Scooter Libby himself, closer to the vice president, perhaps, than anyone but the president himself, and a closer look at where the case may go from here. We will talk with -- "Official A." What next?
A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Leaving Saddam Hussein in possession of weapons of mass destruction for a few more months and years is not an option, not in a post-September 11 world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, SEPTEMBER 2003)
BUSH: If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Innocent until proven guilty is a sacred American ideal. But if America's first impression of you comes from the mouth of a special prosecutor, you're probably -- probably already behind in the battle for public opinion.
It may have been some comfort for Scooter Libby to hear the president and the vice president praise him for the work he's done for his country, but the stakes for him are now enormous. He could face up to 30 years in prison.
So, who is Scooter Libby?
Here's CNN's Gary Tuchman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just as George W. Bush relies on Dick Cheney, Dick Cheney has relied on Scooter Libby.
THOMAS MANN, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Scooter Libby, in my view, is the second most powerful staff member in the White House, second only to Karl Rove.
TUCHMAN: You may not have heard of Libby until the midst of this scandal, but he's been at the center of the power in the Bush White House. Libby, who is on crutches because of an injured foot, was educated at Yale and has been in and out of government for decades.
He's a lawyer, and, ironically, considering what he's going through, was quite skilled at getting people out of legal trouble. Libby and the vice president got acquainted when Cheney was the defense secretary under the first President Bush. By 2000, Libby was one of Cheney's top advisers and followed him to the White House.
Libby was with Cheney on September 11, 2001, and in the days after, when the vice president was moved into secure locations in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Libby has a well-established reputation as an administration hawk.
MANN: Scooter Libby is a formidable figure in this administration who's been involved in virtually every critical national security decision, including the war in Iraq.
TUCHMAN: Libby prepared a document that argued the case for going to war against Iraq, a document that reportedly became the basis for Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations.
But there's a very different side to Libby. He authored a novel called "The Apprentice," a story of romance and intrigue set in 1903 Japan. It was a book that won praise from literary critics. Libby told a "New York Times" interviewer, when the paperback came out, that he occasionally dreams -- quote -- "of just becoming a novelist and sitting on Crete and drinking odd-named wines."
He's got a lot more on his mind now.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up tonight, a look at the man who was not indicted today, Karl Rove. Was it just a temporary reprieve or is he off the hook?
Also, this is going to sting a little. We will tell you some flu shots that weren't.
We will also take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A quick look now at some of the other stories making news tonight.
We go to Atlanta and Erica Hill.
Good evening, Ms. Hill.
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron, on this Friday.
Unfortunately, I have to tell you about another storm, Tropical Storm Beta, causing concern in the western Caribbean tonight. It plowed into the tiny Caribbean island of Providencia today and has its sights set on Nicaragua. Forecasters say the storm could build hurricane strength at any moment. Now, a hurricane warning is in effect for the east coast of Nicaragua. And some coastal residents of villages -- some residents of coastal villages, that is, are being evacuated.
Meantime, fake flu shots. The FBI says 1,000 ExxonMobil workers in Texas were injected with fake flu vaccine. The owner of the health company hired to administer the shots has been arrested and officially charged with Medicare fraud. Investigators say he gave similar shots to 14 residents of a Texas senior citizens home the next day. Preliminary tests indicate the syringes were filled with purified water. A nurse who helped give the shots blew the whistle. So far, no ill effects have been reported.
And a record number of births to unmarried women, one-and-a-half million last year -- that's according to a new federal study. More than 80 percent, we should point out, 80 percent of teen mothers, are unmarried. But, actually, the number of teen mothers is falling. The biggest increase came among women in their 20s, because many of them are unmarried, but living with their partners, so, of course, still count as unwed mothers.
And Second City, no more -- thousands turned out in Chicago today to celebrate the White Sox's victory in the World Series. This is the team's first world championship since 1917, so, plenty to celebrate. Many fans say they still can't believe it. Some people in Boston probably still can't believe it from last year.
And, Aaron, I think I checked the correct paper online. I think.
BROWN: Yes.
HILL: And I believe that the weather today called for a celebration.
BROWN: It did, indeed. And -- and there was one. And if you go back and look at the tape from -- I don't know -- last February or March, you will see that I actually predicted the White Sox would win the World Series.
HILL: I hope you had some money riding on it, my friend.
BROWN: I think I predicted that. I might not have.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: We will find the tape.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Thank you. Have a good weekend.
HILL: You, too.
BROWN: Thank you.
On we go. The grand jury that indicted Scooter Libby today had nothing to say about Karl Rove. Does that mean the president's top political adviser is off the hook?
Our chief national correspondent, John King, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The day's first clue came in Karl Rove's driveway.
ROVE: I'm going to have a great Friday and a fantastic weekend. I hope you do, too.
KING: The Bush White House in turmoil, but the president's right-hand man is still on the job, though not out of legal jeopardy.
FITZGERALD: We either charge someone or we don't talk about them.
KING: The prosecutor won't name names, but Rove remains under investigation -- his attorney voicing confidence, when the special counsel finishes his work, he will conclude that Mr. Rove has done nothing wrong.
At issue is Rove's initial failure to disclose to leak investigators a conversation with reporter Matthew Cooper about CIA operative Valerie Plame. Rove contends it was an inadvertent oversight and that he brought it to the prosecutor's attention as soon as he found an e-mail reminding him.
Rove friend and former top White House aide Nick Calio says, those who don't accept Rove's explanation don't understand the pressure of 18-hour-a-day White House jobs.
NICHOLAS CALIO, FORMER BUSH LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS DIRECTOR: There are a lot of things that I don't remember. I go through notes sometimes now and say, I don't even remember being in the meeting, let alone, you know, having said what I said.
KING: Rove has, from the beginning, insisted he broke no laws.
ROVE: I didn't know her name and didn't leak her name.
KING: What is no longer in dispute, though, is that Rove took part in a hardball White House political campaign to discredit Plame's husband, Ambassador Joe Wilson, when Wilson accused the White House of hyping the case for the war in Iraq.
CALIO: I think, you know, hardball comes with politics, but hardball doesn't mean being not fair and it doesn't mean doing anything illegal.
KING: Some Democrats are more than skeptical and note, the investigation isn't over.
REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: It is going to be interesting over the course of the next few weeks and the next few months to find out exactly what Karl Rove did know.
KING: But, for now, Rove is on the job and deeply involved in everything, including the urgent new search for a Supreme Court nominee.
HELGI WALKER, FORMER COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, Karl, as everybody knows, is an excellent adviser to the president, and has interests in a docket that's extremely broad.
KING: That portfolio in the past few weeks has included managing his own campaign to avoid indictment and quietly orchestrating a strategy to get his version of events out of the grand jury room and into the public domain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Now, Karl Rove is not named in the indictment of Scooter Libby by name. But we do know from two sources familiar with the investigation tonight that Karl Rove is indeed the mysterious "Official A" named in this indictment.
"Official A," the prosecutor says, is the senior administration official who told Scooter Libby, before Novak published the column that started all of this, that Novak about to write that column. That "Official A," again, we're told, is indeed Karl Rove -- prosecutors using that to debunk Scooter Libby's argument that he first learned about this from reporters.
But, Aaron, tonight, sources close to Rove insist they just have a few more questions to answer. They believe the prosecutor will shut down this investigation within a matter of weeks, with no charges. But the investigation is still ongoing -- Rove's closest friends telling him, be very careful.
BROWN: Does the fact that we can now say that "Official A" is Karl Rove mean he is in any more legal jeopardy, any less legal jeopardy, or have we just put a little more frosting on a cake?
KING: It is a little more frosting on a cake. It's essentially cracking one of the mysteries of the indictment.
Prosecutor Fitzgerald said today, if you can't charge them, we don't name them in this indictment. So, from the Rove perspective, they're saying, this is proof he did nothing wrong. Others say, don't rush to that judgments so quickly. The investigation is still open.
BROWN: John, thank you very much -- John King in Washington tonight.
Coming up, back to the future, from what did the president know , to swapping arms for hostages to, "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky," thumbnails of scandals of our lives, because this is NEWSNIGHT.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROVE: I didn't know her name and didn't leak her name. This is at the Justice Department. I'm confident that the U.S. attorney, the prosecutor who is involved in looking at this, is going to do a very thorough job of doing a very substantial and conclusive investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Think about this for a moment. If you are a certain age, there's a good chance that, once upon a time, you were taught to and did trust your government. Indeed, we would like to think that none of us has become so jaded that we never trust our government. But have been tested in that regard because, sometimes, our elected officials lie, cheat, steal or, shall we say, kiss inappropriately.
Today's scandal is just another in a line.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FITZGERALD: A few hours ago, a federal grand jury sitting in the District of Columbia returned a five-count indictment against I. Lewis Libby.
BROWN: Special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald today saying words no administration wants to hear, that one of its own has been indicted. No administration wants to hear it, but more than a few have.
Some are about sex, others about money, power or just plain politics. In 1921, it was Teapot Dome, named for a Wyoming town that was home to U.S. oil reserves. Back then, James B. Fall, the secretary of the interior under President Harding, was indicted for accepting bribes from two oil operators. In return, he leased them oil reserves, oil reserved for the Navy. Fall spent a year in prison, paid a $100,000 fine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not a crook.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Fast forward to 1972. Nixon was president, Watergate the scandal. It started with what the president's press secretary called a third-rate burglary, five men arrested for breaking into the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate. You know the rest.
"Washington Post" reporters Woodward and Bernstein kept digging around, uncovered a series of crimes and cover-ups that reached all the way to the White House. In the end, the burglars and two former White House employees, E. Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy, were convicted of conspiracy, burglary and wiretapping. Three former White House aides were convicted of hindering the investigation.
The president himself was named as a co-conspirator. And, on August 9, 1974, Richard Nixon resigned, just ahead of an impeachment trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: In the mid-'80s, there was Iran-Contra, the Reagan administration selling arms, anti-tank missiles, to be precise, to Iran, in hopes of winning the release for Americans held hostage by Iranian-backed terrorists.
Money from the sale was used to fund the Sandinista rebels in Nicaragua. And both actions contradicted U.S. policy. There were congressional hearings, indictments against National Security Adviser John Poindexter and one of his aides, Colonel Oliver North. Neither ended up in prison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And then, the mid-'90s, there was Monica. President Bill Clinton denied an affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, denied it to a national television audience, and, unfortunately for him, denied it under oath. He was charged with perjury and obstruction, and he was impeached.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: People can debate how big a deal today's indictment is, but consider this. Not since 1875 and President Ulysses Grant has a sitting White House official been indicted. You don't remember Oliver Babcock, of course, but he shares company tonight with Lewis Scooter Libby.
So, what is it like to work at a White House in the scandal crisis mode? David Gergen has advised both Republican and Democratic presidents, as we say to same all the time. John Podesta advised Bill Clinton. And Jeff Greenfield often advises me, but that's not why he's here tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Gentlemen, let me begin by rolling a piece of tape, or having the control room roll one. This is the president this afternoon. Kind of look at his face. I'm not sure we have seen him look quite like this or had a day quite like this.
John, what would you guess the president was going through today?
JOHN PODESTA, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, this was a tough day, Aaron, I think for the president.
But he looked like he intended to just tough it out. He didn't like a guy who intended to change course, to clean house. I think he looked like he was just going to kind of hunker down and try to tough -- tough -- tough things out at this point.
BROWN: And, David, the importance of looking like you're just -- you're going to tough it out to a president, which they all, honestly, try and do -- they want to get back to the people's business, they always tell us -- is what?
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Well, let me just say, first of all, I knew Oliver Babcock. I worked with Oliver Babcock.
(LAUGHTER)
GERGEN: And Scooter Libby is no Oliver Babcock.
(LAUGHTER)
GERGEN: The...
BROWN: Thank you, David.
GERGEN: OK.
The -- I think, on a day like this, -- the importance of the president coming out and toughing it out is exactly what John Podesta said. And that is, he does look like he's being very introspective, that he's really taken it aboard. In fact, I think there's a certain defiance in this White House. They don't think they have done much wrong.
They don't think they made a mistake on Harriet Miers, as far as I can tell. They think she was done in by politics. They don't really think they made much a mistake here. And, so, what that suggests is, you are not going to see much course correction, which I think is quite necessary, in fact, for them to recover.
BROWN: Let me come back to that, but let me draw Jeff in.
One of the things I have heard a lot today is, they have lost control of the agenda. Do you think that the president has lost control of the agenda?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: We're going to find out if he tries to restart his domestic agenda.
And I think the one break that they have is that this is an odd- numbered year. Imagine this happening in late October of '04 or next year, late October of '06, as people prepare to vote. You know, I actually do think that we live in a time, partly because of us, the people process this stuff so -- so quickly, that it's entirely possible that, by next spring, he will be rolling out something.
The question is, with everybody telling him he's got to change course -- you know, crisis has a 1,000 kibitzers...
(LAUGHTER)
GREENFIELD: Is he -- is he...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Oliver Babcock said that.
GREENFIELD: Is he of a mind to do that?
Or, as the -- or, as John and David described, are they saying, you know what, we got here; we got reelected, we got most of our agenda passed in the first years; just give us a little time; we have got our conservative back...
BROWN: Yes.
GREENFIELD: ... because we Lanced the Harriet Miers problem?
So, I'm not sure they have lost control.
BROWN: John, people have said a lot, the president -- one way to get the agenda back, if, in fact, he's lost it, is that you launch big, bold ideas. He launched a big, bold idea in Social Security, probably the biggest, boldest idea in American politics, in a sense, given how many people it affects. And fell flat.
So, what are the big, bold domestic ideas in a country that seems to have growing doubts over the president himself?
PODESTA: Well, look, Social Security completely crashed and burned.
And, you know, when he says, I want to get back and do my job, I want to get back and -- and do the work of the people, it reminds me of what President Clinton said. But it's important to remember, when President Clinton was saying that, he had a 65 percent job approval. Right now, George Bush has a 38 percent job approval.
So, when people hear that, that he's going to just go back and do the same thing, I think they say to themselves, oh, no, you know, what is he talking about? I think that, you know, he hasn't done much about energy. He hasn't done anything to really deal with the middle- class squeeze in this country. He's got a real problem in Iraq.
So, he's got his hands full. And, you know, I think, at this point, he's got a team that, if -- if nothing else, has their credibility in shreds. You know, the one thing we know that is unassailable is that Karl Rove went out, told Scott McClellan to say he had nothing to do with it. We know that was not true.
And I think he would be well-advised to clean house. But I don't think he's going to do it.
BROWN: David, on the -- the whole house-cleaning thing, I mean, to me, it -- it almost cuts two ways. I -- I -- gather there's some advantage in bringing new blood in. And people are tired. It is exhausting work. On the other hand, it feels or it can play as desperate.
GERGEN: It can.
But, in this case, I think the country would welcome someone like a Fred Thompson, the former senator, coming in, someone of stature, of the kind of person that Howard Baker came in with Ronald Reagan.
But here -- on the substantive side, Aaron, I think he has this problem, that, you know, when Reagan was there, and he was looking for new initiatives after Iran-Contra, he had Gorbachev as a partner. And they went -- engaged in summits and they got an arms control treaty. And that really helped as a part of the substantive recovery.
With George W. Bush, you know, the next big decision he's got to make is on the Supreme Court. And every indication is that he is going to choose a fight, that he's going to go to someone who's -- you know, who's a strong conservative, who may well alienate and arouse the center and the left in the Congress. And he will have a huge fight on his hands.
If he were to do that, if he can't find a -- sort of a John Roberts Jr...
BROWN: Yes.
GERGEN: And maybe McConnell would be that kind of -- Michael McConnell of Denver would be that kind of candidate.
If he can't find that kind of person and he gets a fight, then I think his capacity to reach out and heal and -- and -- and build bridges is -- is -- is going really to be destroyed for a long time to come.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Jeff, let me give you the last word here.
Is this a moment -- I don't think the president will call you and ask you for advice, but if he's watching tonight, is this a moment to fight or switch, as the old ad went?
GREENFIELD: It may be a moment, if I might quote Patrick Fitzgerald, to take a deep breath.
(LAUGHTER)
GREENFIELD: Because there's one great advantage that George W. Bush has, which is the other party. One pretty influential Republican said to me this week, you know, the wheels are coming off. We are in trouble.
He says, if the Democrats weren't brain-dead, we would really be in trouble.
BROWN: Yes.
GREENFIELD: So...
BROWN: Jeff, it's good to see you.
David and John, thank you for your time tonight.
PODESTA: Nice to be with you.
BROWN: Appreciate it very much.
GERGEN: Thank you.
BROWN: Coming up, Karl Rove, he is off the hook, at least for now. Is he out of the woods? Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joins us to talk about that and some of the other unknowns in all of this, things we would like to know.
We will take a break first. From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUDITH MILLER, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I served 85 days in jail because of my belief in the importance of upholding the confidential relationship journalists have with their sources.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FITZGERALD: Any notion that anyone might have that there's a different standard for a high official, that this is somehow singling out obstruction of justice and perjury, is upside down. If we -- if these facts are true, if we were to walk away from this and not charge obstruction of justice and perjury, we might as well just hand in our jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that's Scooter -- Scooter Libby arriving at his home -- these pictures just in -- being driven to his home in McLean, Virginia, on what is, as he put it, a very sad day for him and his family. He issued a statement saying he expects to be exonerated, but he's no doubt got a long and difficult year ahead.
His name is James McCord Jr. And for those of you who are Watergate history buffs old enough to remember, he was the Watergate burglar who first broke. Facing a long prison term and a tough-as- nails judge, Mr. McCord spilled the beans, as they say in the B- movies. But will Scooter Libby? Are there even more beans to spill?
Here to take us through some of the knowns and unknowns in the indictment today and the investigation, our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Do you think that they will try and deal with Mr. Libby or is he a high enough fish or a high enough -- some animal?
(LAUGHTER)
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: No.
I think this case will go to trial. I think, if there was a plea bargain to be made, it would have been made before indictment. He would have come in and plea. I think the chance -- the time for dealing was before.
BROWN: Yes.
TOOBIN: I think this case is going to trial.
BROWN: I -- I was in a conversation you may or may not heard with John Sununu, the senator earlier. And I said, you know, I would really like to hear from the vice president. There's a few questions of the vice president. Are there questions you wouldn't mind asking the vice president of the United States about his relationship to this and his right-hand man?
TOOBIN: Oh, it's astonishing.
I mean, but, you know, President Bush answers questions all the time. I don't -- I mean, Vice President Cheney lives in a bubble, like no public official I have ever seen. Here he is involved in a very serious criminal case. He has never answered questions on this subject. He barely ever appears in public, except reading -- reading speeches. But, you know, he's been president for five -- vice president for five years. And he's been...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Some will accuse you of a Freudian slip there.
TOOBIN: It could -- could be.
BROWN: What would you ask him, if you could ask him one good one?
TOOBIN: Describe your role in -- when did you know about Victoria -- Valerie Wilson...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Valerie Plame.
BROWN: ... Valerie Plame, Valerie Plame Wilson's identity? And, describe all your conversations with Scooter Libby about that.
BROWN: We -- we think we sort of know that he calls George Tenet and gets this information. And I forget the date. But don't -- I think the thing I want to know is, did you say, let's go out and trash the guy? I mean, you probably say it more elegantly, but something like that.
TOOBIN: And that's -- and -- and that's what is interesting -- important about his role, his -- well, the -- the actions described in the indictment are not improper or illegal.
And it's certainly -- certainly makes a certain amount of sense. He says, this guy Wilson surface in the -- in the press.
BROWN: Yes.
TOOBIN: He calls the CIA, says, who's this guy? What's the story?
And then he tells his chief of staff about him. The question, though, is, what did he tell him to do about it? And what did Scooter Libby think about that?
BROWN: All right. I -- I almost want to apologize for this question, because I don't think it's knowable, but I am going to it anyway, because I want it on the table. Here you have got a guy, Mr. Libby, who is a lawyer, I think Yale-educated lawyer.
TOOBIN: Yes, indeed.
BROWN: Very smart.
TOOBIN: Columbia Law School.
BROWN: OK -- very smart guy, in any case.
He's got to know that there are notes in these conversations. There are records of meetings. Why do you go in front of the grand jury and life?
TOOBIN: It -- it is unbelievable, isn't it? I -- I -- I -- but -- but in white-collar cases, that is almost always the defense, which is...
BROWN: What, I wouldn't be that stupid?
TOOBIN: Yes, he couldn't be that stupid. It was the defense in the Martha Stewart case. How could she be so stupid, this intelligent woman?
You know what? People do stupid things all the time. And that -- that -- that's usually the prosecutor's response. And a lot of people get convicted. They hope they don't get caught.
BROWN: Thank you. You have had a long day.
TOOBIN: It's been a long day.
BROWN: I know it has. Thank you very much.
Coming up, from failed intelligence to indictments and the war in Iraq, how they all may tie together to lead us to this day and this program, which is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We learned today that a Marine from Ohio was killed in Iraq on Thursday. Lance Corporal Robert Eckfield Jr. was 23 years old.
As the war continues, so, of course, do the questions. Today, the presidential counsel Patrick Fitzgerald was asked if the indictment was a vindication that the Bush administration took the country to war on a false premise. This is how he answered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FITZGERALD: This indictment is not about the war. This indictment's not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I don't think there was a more interesting person today, by the way, than Mr. Fitzgerald. Democrats disagree with him. They believe the indictment has everything to do with the war, how we got to war, partisan, yes, but it is part of the national debate.
Our national security correspondent, David Ensor, has been doing an incredible amount of work, and good work, on the intelligence that led up to the war and how it came to be.
And David joins us now.
David, I think the -- people's perspective on this is, you know, of people who are opposed to the war, say that it wasn't just that the intelligence was wrong. It's that the intelligence was cooked.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
BROWN: Do we know? Can we answer that for them?
ENSOR: Cooked is probably a little too strong a word.
You know, people in the intelligence community -- and I -- let's be honest. I also thought that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. They had used them on their own -- Saddam had used them on the people. He had used them against Iran. There were chemical weapons that were unaccounted for after the war. So, there was lots of good, logical reason to think there were weapons of mass destruction there.
The amazing thing is, there were not. And, you know, I have tried to -- to find out why, how this could go so badly wrong, which is part of what, I guess, we're going to be -- be showing people in the next hour, this -- this -- this look at how this could go so badly wrong. But I was also today at the press conference that you just mentioned, Mr. Fitzgerald's press conference.
And there were -- what was so striking there was, there were lots of questions about, well, isn't this really about Iraq? Isn't this really about the -- the WMD? And he -- he, of course, it is in his interests to be as narrow as possible, to say, no, it is just about lying. That's about all it is about. I don't want to go there.
BROWN: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
ENSOR: But, for most of the people in the country, whether they're for or against the war, that's what this is really about, in political terms.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Right.
At some level, this is about Joe Wilson saying -- I'm not -- I'm not saying he's right about this -- I'm just saying what he said -- is that they took the country to war, when they knew the evidence was at least ambiguous and they never framed it in an ambiguous way.
ENSOR: Right.
But they did believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And, as I say, a lot of people did, myself included. Now, that turned out to be wrong. And that may not have been the real main motivation for going to Iraq in the first place, which is yet another question.
BROWN: David, as you mentioned, we will take a deeper look at this in the hour ahead. We appreciate your spending a few minutes with us in -- in anticipation of that to sort of set the stage.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Thank you very much.
ENSOR: My pleasure.
BROWN: David Ensor tonight.
We will take a break and we will continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, good evening again.
In a moment, "CNN PRESENTS: Dead Wrong."
First, here's what making news at this moment.
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