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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Alito Nominated to Supreme Court; Frightened to Faith

Aired October 31, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAULA ZAHN, GUEST HOST: This is NEWSNIGHT.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, on NEWSNIGHT, if you can be frightened to death on a night like this, can you also be frightened to faith?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no gray, there's right and wrong. There's heaven and hell, there's Jesus and Satan.

ANNOUNCER: See how some churches are using the old hellish holiday of Halloween in a very, very new way.

Also, exit Harriet Miers, enter Samuel Alito.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He has participated in thousands of appeals.

He has a deep understanding of the proper role of judges in our society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Yes, but will Samuel Alito's "deep understanding" precipitate a knockdown, drag-out battle?

And a final tribute to a humble woman who made a great many people proud. Colin Powell bids farewell to Rosa Parks.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

ZAHN: And good evening again. Happy Halloween. We hope all the kids were out there making their candy-collecting rounds are done and home in bed by now, with their homework done.

As for the adult version of Halloween, it is still roaring. You are looking live at the scene of New York City's Greenwich Village, where the annual All Halloween Eve celebration still has a good many hours to go. We're going to check back here a little bit later on, and we'll also take a look at a very different use of Halloween, one that takes the terrors of hell quite seriously.

But first, here's what's happening at this moment.

The president reveals his new choice to replace retiring Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, federal judge Samuel Alito. Many see his selection as ringing the bell for what could turn into a bruising confirmation hearing. One key reason, the issue of abortion. Alito's views have angered liberal groups and could drive moderate Senate Republicans into an alliance with Democrats.

With worries increasing about a bird flu pandemic, President Bush is taking some action. Tomorrow, he is expected to reveal a national strategy for fighting the next superflu. A key focus will be on vaccines, getting enough stockpiled so health care workers and first responders, among others, are protected.

Troubled by the indictment of one top adviser in connection with the CIA leak investigation, and the continued scrutiny of another, the Bush administration is rebuffing calls for a staff shakeup and an apology, and they are keeping mum as long as the investigation and legal process moves ahead.

We begin tonight with a picture, the Supreme Court class photo, taken today, a picture that symbolizes the past, present, and the future ideological battles in our nation.

In the center, well, you will eventually see the new chief justice. There he is, John Roberts, a conservative, sworn in about a month ago. To his left, Sandra Day O'Connor, whose critical votes have determined of many of the court's split decisions, Justice O'Connor now preparing for retirement.

Which brings us to the battle that began today over this man that the president has chosen to take O'Connor's seat on the bench, Judge Samuel Alito, to your left there, Senator Frist. Tonight we'll examine how Judge Alito could shape the court and our lives should he be confirmed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): His reputation and credentials are impressive. President Bush introduced Judge Samuel Anthony Alito, Jr., as his nominee to the Supreme court today. He's now a federal judge in the Third Circuit.

BUSH: Judge Alito has served with distinction on that court for 15 years, and now has more prior judicial experience than any Supreme Court nominee in more than 70 years.

ZAHN: Judge Alito, 55, was born in Trenton, New Jersey, the son of an Italian immigrant. He graduated Princeton in 1972. His yearbook entry said he was off to law school, and would one day would warm a seat on the Supreme Court.

A graduate of Yale Law School, Alito's widely considered one of the sharpest conservative judges in the country today. Before serving on the federal bench, Alito argued 12 cases before the Supreme Court as an assistant U.S. solicitor general.

He and his wife have a son in college and a daughter in high school. Friends describe Alito as a gourmet cook, a voracious reader, and a passionate fan of the Philadelphia Phillies. The most candid comment about him today came from his 90-year-old mother, Rose, who still lives in his childhood home. She says she believes her son Sam disappointed when Harriet Miers was initially appointed.

HARRIET MIERS, SUPREME COURT NOMINATION: Thank you, Mr. President...

JUDGE SAMUEL ALITO, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: Mr. President, thank you once again for the confidence...

ZAHN: Asked about her son, a Catholic, felt about abortion, his mother told the Associated Press, quote, "Of course, he's against it."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: The Senate Judiciary Committee will certainly want to know more about Judge Alito than that. Unfortunately for those senators weighing the nomination, Judge Alito has a long paper trail. Here's chief national correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no. Alito will not save Roe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no. Alito will not save Roe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no. Alito will not save Roe.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Abortion is the first battle line in the nomination fight over Judge Samuel Alito, in part because of his record, in part because of where he would fit in this class photo.

NAN ARON, ALLIANCE FOR JUSTICE: He is filling the seat of Sandra Day O'Connor, a moderate justice, a justice in favor of women's rights, civil rights. He is not the right one.

KING: Justice O'Connor is the high court's swing vote on abortion, affirmative action, and many other contentious issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, we commit this appointment into your care and keeping.

KING: And in Alito, many conservatives see a chance to realize their long-held goal of shifting the court more reliably to the right.

WENDY LONG, JUDICIAL CONFIRMATION NETWORK: Well, we have no idea how he'll vote in exact abortion cases that will come before the court. But we do know one thing, he will be faithful to the Constitution, and he'll respect the role of people to make laws for themselves, instead of having judges make it up.

KING: In 15 years as a federal judge, Alito has not ruled on a direct challenge to the landmark Roe versus Wade abortion rights case, but he did support a Pennsylvania law requiring women to notify their spouses before an abortion, suggesting he would grant states more powers than O'Connor in restricting abortion access.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (on phone): National Organization for Women.

KING: Which is why the National Organization of Women immediately announced its opposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (on phone): We're urging everybody to write their senators and express how they feel about this nominee that's anti-choice.

KING: Judge Alito has, however, joined rulings overturning state abortion restrictions for failing to meet Supreme Court tests, and declaring an unborn child is not recognized as a person under the law.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (on phone): Hey, General Meese, you're on with us? Very good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (on phone): Yes, I would just say that I think President Bush has made an outstanding decision in nominating Judge Alito...

KING: Many conservatives say Judge Alito had no choice but to follow precedent in those cases, but a former law clerk says anyone expecting an ideologue on social issues like abortion and gay rights is likely to be disappointed.

ADAM CIONGOLI, FORMER ALITO LAW CLERK: If they think that this is going to be an opportunity for someone to go in and wholesale change the culture, then they may be looking for somebody else. I mean, Judge Alito is going to be restrained judge.

KING (on camera): Even if Judge Alito wins Senate confirmation, it won't be in time for next month's arguments on a New Hampshire case involving abortion restrictions. But the issue of whether the states and the federal government can ban late-term abortions is likely to be on the high court docket next year, and could prove the first test of whether an Alito-for-O'Connor swap tilts the court balance in favor of abortion foes.

John King, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And we will have more on Judge Alito's record in just a minute.

But first, let's turn to Erica Hill from Headline News, who has some of the other stories we're following tonight. Happy Halloween, Erica.

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS: And happy Halloween to you, Paula.

Unfortunately, we are not starting the headlines on a very happy note, with news that we have reached finally the end of a very bloody month in Iraq, in fact, the deadliest since January. At least 92 troops lost their lives this month, including six U.S. soldiers today. The military also said today a U.S. colonel was killed on Thursday. He becomes the highest-ranking officer to die in combat. At least 2,025 U.S. troops have died since the war began.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says outside forces played a role in Saturday's bombings in New Delhi, which killed 59 people. He complained about those alleged foreign links during a phone conversation with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. He urged Musharraf to act against terrorism directed at India.

In Temperance Hill, South Carolina, a high -- a hayride turns deadly. Last night, an 18-wheeler hit a flatbed -- flatbed trailer and tractor which were being used for a hayride. Four people were killed, including a toddler. The driver of the 18-wheeler has been charged with drunk driving.

And in Washington, an emotional good-bye. Rosa Parks was celebrated today with a three-hour memorial service at a packed church in the nation's capital. Parks, who died last week at the age of 92, inspired the modern civil rights movement by refusing to give up her seat to a white man some 50 years ago.

Her funeral is scheduled for Wednesday, Paula. And just amazing, the outpouring of emotion and remembrances.

ZAHN: Yes, it's felt pretty universally. Thanks so much, Erica. See you a little bit later on.

And coming up, Joe Wilson speaks out -- he happens to be the husband of the outed CIA operative, Valerie Plame -- in an interview with Wolf Blitzer.

And hell hath no fury like the Hell House. How Christian ministers are scaring the hell out of their flocks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito may be the man many conservatives have been waiting for, and not just because he'd be the swing vote on abortion and other issues. In fact, many are looking forward to the battle over the nomination.

As CNN's senior political correspondent Candy Crowley reports, conservatives hope this battle will give them even more power in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Come home, George Bush, all is forgiven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There has been almost an instant healing process here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as we forgive those who trespass against us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... as we forgive those who trespass against us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as we forgive those who trespass against us.

CROWLEY: Amen, and start stuffing the mailers. A group of Christian conservatives let bygones by bygones with the president as they prayed and rallied at the Supreme Court over the base-pleasing nomination of Samuel Alito.

ROB SCHENCK, THE NATIONAL CLERGY COUNCIL: If liberal senators want a fight over this nomination, they will have to install new phone lines, new fax machines, and new e-mail servers, because hundreds, thousands, and even millions of conscientious citizens are about to be unleashed.

CROWLEY: For the president's base, the beauty of Alito is not just that he's a conservative jurist, duly noted by Democrats.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D-NY), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: This is a nominee who could shift the balance of the court, and thus the laws of the nation, for decades to come.

CROWLEY: Well, exactly. For conservatives, the real beauty is that this nomination may produce the high-noon showdown they have wanted for decades, the kind of conservative-liberal smackdown that produces volunteers, money, and noise for the midterm election in '06, the kind of brawl that marks a pivotal moment, electrifying the president's base with a reason to keep Congress in Republican control.

BAY BUCHANAN, THE AMERICAN CAUSE: We have three and a half, almost three and half more years with President Bush. There's a chance president gives us somebody again like a Thomas and Scalia, then, then we will see enormous changes in the direction of the court in the next 30 years.

CROWLEY: Midterm elections have lower turnout than presidential years. They are basically a battle of the bases. Even a 2 percent difference in turnout can win or lose the day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had a very nice meeting in my...

CROWLEY: Democrats, who already have a base plenty energized by anti-Bush sentiment, don't stand to gain much ground on this issue, but the nomination may fit well into their working premise.

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPECIAL COUNSEL: We win if this goes to the American people, based on the religious right's agenda dictating private, individual behavior by families. That's a battle that the Democrats will win. If we frame the issue that way, I think we take back the country in '06 and in '08.

CROWLEY: For George Bush, the elections may seem like a year full of problems away, but his short-term goal was to stop the hemorrhaging of his most loyal supporters. And so far, so good, said one conservative backer, not even any scar tissue.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: So what else do we know about Judge Alito?

I'm joined now by CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Always good to see you.

We have heard conservatives today say how happy they are that he has been chosen, because they are hopeful that he will ultimately overturn Roe v. Wade if he's confirmed. But his record on abortion is not that black and white, is it?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's not, (INAUDIBLE), he's written two main opinions on abortion. One is this opinion in 1991, in the Casey case, where he said that a law that in Pennsylvania, where -- which required married women to inform their husbands before they got an abortion, was constitutional. The Supreme Court overturned that. So that was a decision in the pro-life direction, but it was far from indicating directly that he would overturn Roe v. Wade.

Then in 2001, he followed the Supreme Court, and, in fact, struck down a New Jersey law that was banning partial-birth abortion, which was, you know, a decision in the other direction. But he was more or less forced to do that.

ZAHN: By following Supreme Court precedent.

TOOBIN: By following Supreme Court precedent.

So there's not a lot that he has written indicating what his own views are about abortion. But somehow, in all these, you know, interest-group conversations...

ZAHN: They divine what they want to divine, right?

TOOBIN: ... they sort of know, they, they -- well, well, I mean, maybe they, maybe they have some inside information. But certainly, the public record is not entirely clear which direction he would go.

ZAHN: What can we glean from the public record on the issue of affirmative action?

TOOBIN: Almost nothing. I mean, that's one of those issues where he has not written, written a great deal. And there, you have Sandra Day O'Connor, in the University of Michigan case in 2003, she completely controlled the court. I mean, she was the swing vote. It is solely because of Sandra Day O'Connor that affirmative action surprise -- survives in American universities, because if a more conservative justice were on the court, it would be banned.

That's how important her vote is. And that's what we don't know about Sam Alito.

ZAHN: Very quickly, in closing, we heard a bunch of Democrats come out today and bash this man. Is there anything that they can like about this guy? Besides...

TOOBIN: Well...

ZAHN: ... I guess his credentials are pretty impeccable, right?

TOOBIN: That's their problem is that his (INAUDIBLE) his credentials are so good. You know, 15 years on the court of appeals. Their problem is, they've got to attack him entirely on the basis of his ideology, and his opinions are not that far out outside of the mainstream. So they need -- they need some raw material with which to work with, and they don't have it.

ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you for your perspective tonight. Appreciate it.

Meanwhile, Judge Samuel Alito's nomination may help the president kill two birds with one stone. With everyone focusing on the new nominee, the president has a chance to regroup after several difficult months. Latest CNN-"U.S.A. Today"-Gallup poll shows the president's approval rating down to 41 percent. A "Washington Post" poll has it dipping even lower, to 39 percent.

Some say the president needs a back-to-basics approach to get his second term back on track.

Here's Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): If you listen carefully, at just about this moment...

JUDGE SAMUEL ALITO, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: ... and for honoring me with this nomination.

BASH: ... you may be able to hear a collective sigh of relief inside the White House. With that announcement, they changed the subject, step one in the post-Harriet Miers, post-indictment White House recovery plan.

ALITO: I really look forward to working with the Senate during the confirmation process.

BASH: With Samuel Alito, the political planets realigned. Beleaguered Bush aides say they can fight who they're supposed to, Democrats, not fellow Republicans revolting against their leader.

But Mr. Bush still faces a long list of problems. Just Monday, six more troops were killed in the increasingly unpopular Iraq war. And he still has problems in his own party. While conservatives like Alito, they have other complaints.

TERRY JEFFREY, EDITOR, "HUMAN EVENTS": President Bush has not done a good job restraining the growth of government. He has not done a good job securing our borders. BASH: Then there's the question of the CIA leak investigation, one aide indicted, another still in legal limbo. But the White House would not, said they could not, answer credibility questions stemming from past statements by the president and his spokesman, who told reporters former Cheney chief of staff Scooter Libby and top Bush aide Karl Rove had no role in the leaks.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: If we were to get into that, we would -- could be (INAUDIBLE) -- prejudicing the opportunity for there to be a fair and impartial hearing.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: On this day, Mr. Bush determined not to step on his new Alito message, would not answer questions about Democratic calls to fire Rove, who, sources say, did talk to reporters about classified information.

But Republican strategists, especially those familiar with second-term slumps, say the president still must consider replacing some of his tired, insular staff.

KEN DUBERSTEIN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: That doesn't mean a wholesale change, or any changing of the guard. But it does mean some new energy and some fresh ideas and fresh faces.

BASH: One Bush adviser tells CNN the president is disappointed in his staff for missteps, and aides say he will likely make changes at the top as soon as the end of the year.

NICK CALIO, FORMER SENIOR BUSH WHITE HOUSE AIDE: If people have to leave, they will leave. They will be replaced. The president will move on. There's a lot more that he wants to get done.

BASH (on camera): Ten months into the president's second term, no one here disputes the Bush agenda is largely stalled. But aides hope in the near term to regain their footing by pushing less-partisan issues, like a plan to fight the bird flu pandemic.

Dana Bash, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And some heated words today from Joe Wilson. I'm sure you remember him, the former U.S. ambassador, who's married to Valerie Plame, the covert agent whose blown cover sparked the CIA leak investigation.

Wilson accuses the president's top adviser, Karl Rove, of abusing the public's trust and revealing classified information.

He sat down today with Wolf Blitzer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You were quoted as saying this, And I believe you did say this, because we've talked about it, "At the end of the day, it's of keen interest to me to see whether or not we can Karl Rove frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs." Well, he's still working at the White House. He's the deputy White House chief of staff.

JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR: And I think that Karl Rove should be fired. I think that this idea that you can with impunity call journalists and leak national security information is repugnant. It is not fitting for a senior White House official. It is below any standard of ethical comportment, even if it is not technically illegal, because of the high standard of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Jim Marcinkowski was outraged when Plame's identity was exposed. He too is a former CIA agent. He once trained with Valerie Plame, and is now a deputy city attorney in Royal Oak, Michigan.

Good to have you with us tonight, sir.

We should make it clear that the CIA has done no formal damage assessment yet. But in your estimation, what has been the fallout so far?

JIM MARCINKOWSKI, FORMER CIA AGENT: Well, I think the fallout so far, and I agree with Joe Wilson, it's a matter of a broken trust here. And that broken trust has been transmitted around the world, and (INAUDIBLE) talk about securing the security of people that work on behalf of the United States around the world.

ZAHN: So let's talk about, then, what you think the immediate impact has been on some of these CIA agents who are now covert agents operating in all over the world.

MARCINKOWSKI: By the White House exposing one of our own CIA officers, the question becomes, from a perspective of a foreign intelligence asset, the question is, Can you protect my identity if you can't protect the identity of the home team? So it reaches around the world in all those relationships that the CIA builds with people that will commit espionage in their own countries.

ZAHN: But as you know, Jim, there are those out there who don't think the damage is as deep as you're suggesting.

Let's listen to what a guest had to say to Wolf Blitzer earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's talk about Joe DiGenova, former U.S. attorney, Republican. He was on this program, as you well know, he among others suggesting, Well, she had a desk job, she was an analyst in the counterproliferation division at the CIA. She was no longer really a -- what they call a NOC, someone working nonofficial cover overseas, and that it was really no big deal. WILSON: Well, I don't think Mr. DiGenova knows what he's talking about in this particular matter. I would go back to the indictment and Mr. Fitzgerald's preamble in which he's made very clear, she was a classified officer, she was covered by the various statutes related to the handling of classified information. So simple as that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: So Jim, what is your understanding of what her status was at the time of her outing?

MARCINKOWSKI: Well, it wouldn't gone to -- from the CIA to the Justice Department, and the Justice Department wouldn't have set up Mr. -- the special prosecutor to look into the matter, if, in fact, they didn't believe initially that she fit under the requirements of the statutes. So I don't think that's even a question at this point.

ZAHN: We have to leave it there. Jim Marcinkowski, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

MARCINKOWSKI: You're welcome.

And coming up, it's a literal hell on earth, the fundamentalist Christian phenomenon designed to scare people back to God.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Yes, indeed, it is still Halloween. Live pictures once again from Greenwich Village here in New York, Halloween revelers in full swing, the annual All Hallow Eve celebration still has a few hours to go, the evening very young.

It seems fair to say that for many, if not most people, the fright in Halloween is all in fun. But for others, the fright factor is real, very real. Across the country in every state, haunted houses like nothing you've ever seen before are scaring people into salvation.

Tom Foreman has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Out on the pancake- flat Texas plains in the small town of Plainview, a crowd is gathering at a local church, getting as close to heaven as they can before the sun sets and hell rises.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hell House.

FOREMAN: This is Hell House, a shocking, rocking, roaring attempt to transform the horrors of Halloween into the fear of God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Racism!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hell House is not timid, is it? Hell House is aggressive. We're very aggressive in the name of Jesus.

FOREMAN: And the man leading the prayers before the scares tonight is the one who has turned Hell House into a national phenomenon, Pastor Keenan Roberts.

(on camera): How many churches have you seen this done in?

PASTOR KEENAN ROBERTS, HELL HOUSE CREATOR: Well, this year across the United States, there'll be probably about 3,000.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help me. Help me. Please. Help me. No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

ROBERTS: This is absolutely a modern-day parable. It is helping portray and color and bring to life, to reach the sight-and-sound generation. It is using the tools that are attractive to this culture to help them understand spiritual principles of Christ.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Certainly learning about sin and salvation is why many came here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it is a fair reflection of what's going on in the world today, you know, some of the scenes.

FOREMAN: Odelia Ortiz (ph) brought her daughter Erisele (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you can't trust anybody nowadays. I mean, you have to be careful with everybody, anybody. So I want her to have an open eye out for it.

FOREMAN (on camera): What are you scared of? What do you think you're going to see?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Things that I might go through later on during life.

FOREMAN (voice-over): But in the very first room, on the 45- minute free tour, it is clear this is not Sunday school.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's have ourselves a little gay pride.

FOREMAN: This is part of what makes Hell House so controversial. A mock gay wedding presided over by a demon who doesn't just say this is wrong, but quite literally, damns homosexuals to death by AIDS and eternity in hell.

Room after room, the sins roll by: domestic violence; Internet porn; drinking and driving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any time is Miller time!

FOREMAN: And the centerpiece since the first Hell House opened its doors 10 years ago: abortion. This one depicted inside a woman's womb.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mommy, can you see me?

ROBERTS: My philosophy of reaching people really boils down to creatively package the message of the Gospel. Make it palatable. Make it interesting.

FOREMAN (on camera): Palatable? What do you mean by palatable? Because, you know, a lot of people would look at this and say, this ain't palatable.

ROBERTS: It's palatable because it's understandable. There's no gray. There's right and wrong. There's heaven and hell. There's Jesus and Satan. There's forgiveness and unforgiveness. And, this makes the message of the Gospel, it packages it in a contemporary format that young people will come and see.

FOREMAN (voice-over): The final scenes are bookends. The devil raving in hell, his demons tormenting sinful souls and just when all seems lost, Jesus appears, in this case, local Pastor Randy Santiago, beckoning the audience to accept faith and afterward, as visitors arrange with follow-up meetings with church leaders...

PASTOR RANDY SANTIAGO, FIRST ASSEMBLY OF GOD CHURCH: We see changed lives. I see that they are experiencing the love of Jesus. When it's all said and done, they're experiencing the love of God.

FOREMAN: Certainly, many people experience something powerful. The exit is a parade of emotion. Remember Erisele Ortiz and her mother?

(on camera): You are pretty upset. What's so upsetting about this? Was this good to bring her here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably -- in a way, I would say yes. In a way, no.

FOREMAN: On this night, officials of Planned Parenthood show up.

TONY THORNTON, CEO, PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF LUBBOCK: I think that the material that they depicted is not accurate.

FOREMAN: So, too, are representatives of a gay rights group.

RICKY WAITE, PRES., PFLAG: They are preaching bigotry and hate.

FOREMAN: But Hell House organizers say 75 percent of their visitors are people who don't regularly go to church. And that's who they're after, people like Gracie Velasquez (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The best thing they could ever happen to me.

FOREMAN (on camera): Why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I need the lord in my life.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Keenan Roberts has seen it all, tens of thousands of times, and nothing seems to faze him.

(on camera): Do you ever worry about hurting people with this?

ROBERTS: When you're pointing people to the direction of the cross, when you're helping them understand that they can walk away from the pain and the guilt and the heaviness of sin, you're not hurting them, you're helping them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help me!

ROBERTS: Sometimes you have got to shake 'em to wake 'em.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Hellfire and brimstone preaching has been a hallmark of fundamentalists Christians for generations, but only 45 minutes away from Plainview, Pastor Philip Wise, that wrote a book on fundamentalism is troubled by the uniquely pointed impact of Hell House.

PASTOR PHILIP WISE, SENIOR PASTOR, SECOND BAPTIST CHURCH: It's really, I think, the message that is being conveyed and the way that it's being conveyed. I have problems with both of those. They say, we abhor this violent culture we live in, but they present a program that is extremely violent. They say, we abhor the occult, but they have a program that I think actually encourages interest in the occult.

FOREMAN (on camera): But they would also say we believe something and we're acting on it. Isn't that what any person of faith should do?

WISE: Well, I would just say if you believe that, then you believe the people who flew the planes into the Twin Towers were doing God's work.

ROBERTS: To compare us to terrorists is just absurd. This outreach is a blessing all across this country. It is helping people find hope. It is not the problem. Those people that point fingers at this as the problem are pointing in the wrong direction. We are giving people -- we are giving people the answer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, he also says that scaring children in the name of Jesus, bringing kids face to face with hell's fury is for the greater good. But is that same pastor you already met profiting in cold hard cash from their terror?

And getting it wrong, "Dead Wrong," on a matter of national security. How the White House spun the facts about weapons of mass destruction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: On this Halloween night, there are some very different haunted houses that are scaring kids, but these houses are not filled with usual frights: corpses popping up, and coffins, screams slicing through the dark. But as you just saw, the horrors that await kids in what is called the Hell House are meant to terrify, to literally scare people back to Jesus.

We continue with Tom Foreman's report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am your worst nightmare.

FOREMAN (voice-over): It is impossible to overstate how powerfully Hell House resonates with fundamentalist Christians. This documentary film from a couple of years ago gives a hint and it includes some more examples sit interpretations of the Hell House script.

Churches stage about 3,000 Hell Houses each autumn in every state. A big change from a decade ago when I covered the phenomenon from one Pastor Keenan Roberts had just started in Denver.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT," OCTOBER 27TH, 1995)

FOREMAN (on camera): Church leaders say across the country there are more than 200 Hell Houses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: That first year, we had a total of 5,000 people in six nights and turned away probably half that many more.

FOREMAN: What did you think at that moment? Did you think, we have got a hit?

ROBERTS: Yes. It was something that was getting -- it was something that was working and because it was working, we were very excited about that.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Although the original notion for Bible- based haunted houses is widely attributed to Jerry Falwell, Pastor Roberts, a former college basketball player turned youth minister, was running with the idea.

ROBERTS: I have talked to radio stations across the country: L.A., San Diego, Kansas City, Philadelphia.

FOREMAN: And soon, he was selling Hell House kits to churches that wanted to join the movement. Today, his ministry offers casting advice, recommendations for good, fake weapons, and, of course, that ever evolving script that Pastor Roberts still writes.

ROBERTS: The seven original scenes that we have and a 15-track soundtrack that goes with those scenes, it's all digital, it comes all on disk and they can purchase this...

FOREMAN (on camera): Once again, starting to sound like a producer here. ROBERTS: Well, I am a producer.

FOREMAN (voice-over): He makes no apology for the show biz sensibilities.

ROBERTS: I mean, it is cold in this room, brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want it that way.

ROBERTS: They do. All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want it cold.

ROBERTS: Yes, well, don't let this -- don't let it get this way in scene 6.

FOREMAN: Nor does he give an inch when questioned about the ethics of scaring people to salvation.

ROBERTS: Heaven is real. Hell is also real. Jesus is real. Satan and demonic forces are also real.

FOREMAN (on camera): It still has a little feel, though, of, who would Jesus terrorize?

ROBERTS: Well, if the response happens to be that fear is generated, we still, as the church, have an obligation to reach them.

FOREMAN: Is this something Jesus would do?

ROBERTS: I believe Jesus is doing it.

FOREMAN (voice-over): He even questions whether people who are overcome by Hell House, like 12-year-old Amelia McElroy (ph), are suffering at all.

ROBERTS: How do you know that just because you see tears that that's an adverse effect?

FOREMAN (on camera): Well, it certainly looks that way.

ROBERTS: Long term, maybe temporarily, maybe, maybe not.

FOREMAN (voice-over): You saw Amelia a moment ago like this. Ten minutes later, she is dry-eyed, calm, thoughtful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It just touched me, really bad, because I know people that drink and I don't want that to happen to them any day. It touched me.

FOREMAN: This is a core Hell House belief, even if people are shocked, angry, appalled, it can be for good in the long run.

ELISABETH NIXON, INSTRUCTOR, FRANKLIN UNIVERSITY: I think I was in shock initially. FOREMAN: Elisabeth Nixon teaches popular culture and wrote a book about Hell House. She says she often heard a familiar story from audience members.

NIXON: And they said that, you know, at first they have gone through as a skeptic or as somebody who's mocked the play. And they'll say that because of some sort of trauma in their life, they'll think back to something that they saw in Hell House, received some sort of comfort or some sort of guidance.

FOREMAN: Still, after the Columbine school shootings, near my former home, some Hell Houses included school shooting scenes and Pastor Roberts was fine with that.

ROBERTS: It heals. It heals because you're exposing where it comes from, what it's all about. You're dealing with the sin issue.

FOREMAN (on camera): But I'm telling you as somebody who lived four miles from Columbine High School and as a Christian, I don't find that healing. I find it unbelievably insensitive and mean.

ROBERTS: But what's the heart behind it, what's the heart behind it, though?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hell is your destiny.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Not everyone has as much faith in the good-hearted nature of Hell Houses. In Hollywood, a satirical version of Hell House brought huge crowds and gales of laughter for months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will burn in hell forever with me.

FOREMAN: But Pastor Roberts is getting the last laugh.

ROBERTS: This past June, we signed a deal -- we signed a movie deal for Hell House the movie.

FOREMAN (on camera): Is the movie deal going to be a financial windfall for your church or for you?

ROBERTS: Hopefully both. Hopefully both.

FOREMAN (voice-over): He says so far, his ministry has made money from Hell House. And thousands of local churches, most of which charge admission have, too. But...

ROBERTS: The movie deal will be a little bit different because they have bought the play, the rights to the play from the playwright.

FOREMAN: That's him.

ROBERTS: And there's nothing wrong with that.

FOREMAN: Just like he says there's nothing wrong with Hell House. ROBERTS: The cookies and milk approach isn't going to reach everyone. Sometimes you have got to have a little bit of a rock 'n; roll gospel to get it done.

FOREMAN: Preaching, playwriting, praying, for Keenan Roberts, life is good raising hell each autumn.

ROBERTS: Somebody say, amen.

GROUP: Amen!

FOREMAN: Tom Foreman, CNN, Plainview, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And just ahead, former Secretary of State Colin Powell reflects on Rosa Parks and racism in his own life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And we are moving up on 12 minutes before the hour. Time now to check the headlines with Erica Hill in Atlanta.

Hi, Erica.

HILL: Hi, again, Paula.

Iraq has asked the United Nations to let international forces stay for another year because its troops cannot provide security. The current mandate expires at the end of the year.

The Labor Department inspector general says there were serious breakdowns in a government settlement with Wal-Mart over child labor. That report, now the corporation received, quote, "significant concessions," including advance notice of Labor Department investigations. The settlement involved 25 stores where teenage workers were allegedly using hazardous equipment.

And the government is now investigating nearly 500,000 Dodge Durango SUVs and Dodge Dakota pickup trucks because of a possible loss of steering control. Traffic safety authorities say they have had several complaints of looseness in the steering shaft but they don't believe the problem has caused any accidents luckily. But a little bit scary for drivers of those vehicles probably to hear that.

ZAHN: I can imagine that. Coming up -- thank you, Erica.

How small actions can lead to some great change and some great opportunities for others. The legacy of Rosa Parks in the words of Colin Powell and Oprah Winfrey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And the pictures say it all. They came by the thousands, starting yesterday evening until well past sunrise today, came to pay their respects to civil rights pioneer Rosa Parks. Her body lying in honor in the Capitol Rotunda, the first woman to ever have that honor.

Later at a memorial service, hundreds celebrated her life and her legacy.

(MUSIC PLAYING "WE SHALL OVERCOME")

ZAHN: Rosa Parks died last Monday. She was 92 years old. Fifty years ago when she refused to give up the seat on a bus in Alabama, her arrest helped set in motion the civil rights movement. She was just 42 years old, a seamstress, living proof that ordinary people can and often do accomplish the extraordinary.

What Rosa Parks and so many other ordinary people fought for made it possible for others to break ground. Pioneers like Colin Powell, the first African-American secretary of state. A few days ago Aaron Brown talked with Mr. Powell about Rosa Parks and about the world he encountered as a young soldier sent to the South.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: You were a New York kid. You grew up in an environment very different from the kids in Montgomery, Alabama, or Selma or Birmingham or any of those places. Did it all connect still to you?

COLIN POWELL, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes. We knew what the rest of the country was like or other parts of the country were like. And, in few years' time, three years after this, I was entering the Army and having to go to the South. And I knew what to expect.

My commanders at my ROTC unit in New York City said, now, look, Colin, you are going to be going down to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and then the next year you're going to go to Fort Benning, Georgia. And we need to explain to you that it's very, very different down there.

And so I knew what was going on down there. You couldn't be immune to what was happening in the rest of the country, what the rest of the country was like. We lived in a Jim Crow nation, in a nation where separate but equal was the law of the land, said the Supreme Court, and where things were starting to change.

BROWN: What did this young soldier who finds himself in the South think of this -- what must have been an unbelievable cultural change?

POWELL: I was ready for it. And I knew that when you left New York City, driving to either Fort Bragg or Fort Benning, you didn't plan to stop anywhere, because there really were no motels in those early days. And you had to drive all the way through.

I knew that I could go on post at Fort Bragg and Fort Benning and be treated like anyone else because of federal law. But I also knew that when I went off post, I could only go to segregated facilities. If I wanted to go to a hamburger joint I had to go to the back window and hope they would serve me, but I couldn't go inside and sit down. That was the country that I was serving and that was the country I swore to defend.

BROWN: And did that make you angry? I mean...

POWELL: Sure. Yes. I mean, it made you angry. It made you disappointed in your own country. But at the time that I came into the Army, the country was starting to change. Truman had desegregated the armed forces a few years earlier. I was really one of the first generations of black officers to come in the post-segregation period of the Army. And I knew when I came in the Army that notwithstanding what was going on in the South, if within the Army I worked hard and I performed, I would be promoted on the basis of my performance and not on the basis of the color of my skin.

BROWN: And finally, I know a couple of your kids have been -- they've grown up in the kind of rarefied atmosphere of your life and your successes and your extraordinary career. Do you think that Rosa Parks and what she did resonates with them?

POWELL: Yes. The key thing here though is that with each new generation coming along, my children and now my grandchildren, they really don't know those days that well. And so there will be a fading memory in the years ahead. We have to memorialize what was done. That's why the memorial for Dr. Martin Luther King here in Washington is such an important project. And I'm sure that Rosa Parks will be memorialized in many, many ways.

It is important that we not forget the sacrifices of those who came before us and that we keep passing it down to future generations. But it won't be as relevant to future generations. And I'm glad that is the case. I'm glad the future generations do not have real-time memories of a time in this country when you were considered a second class or third class citizen merely by the color of your skin.

I hope it is nothing but a memory for my great-grandchildren and their children.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Colin Powell.

Still ahead, was the war in Iraq built on a scaffold of lies? "Dead Wrong," the real story of why the U.S. went to war.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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