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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
The Wal-Mart Debate; Some Democrats Willing to Give Supreme Court Nominee Samuel Alito a Chance?
Aired November 02, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, tonight, a Wal-Mart controversy.
Good evening. I'm Kyra Phillips.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Rick Sanchez.
NEWSNIGHT begins right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, every story has two sides. In Wal-Mart's case, both sides are being beamed on to big screens everywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One-point-three million people in America have decided it's in their best self-interests to work at Wal-Mart. Now, are they stupid? No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I keep saying, you can't buy small-town quality of life at a Wal-Mart, because they don't sell it. But, once they steal it from you, you can't get it back at any price.
ANNOUNCER: Attention, shoppers. Is Wal-Mart's way the wave of the future?
And it's a case of dueling realities -- a city brimming with hope in some places, devoid of it in others -- New Orleans, a tale of two cities.
Also, this man is a convicted murder. Why are there so many who want his life spared?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is NEWSNIGHT.
SANCHEZ: And we begin tonight with Wal-Mart, a place, no doubt, many of you are likely to shop.
When it comes to retail, Wal-Mart is the biggest of the big. And that makes it a big target as well. Its corporate policies, from buying cheap to selling cheap, to providing jobs for tens of thousands of people, while paying rock-bottom salaries, are also reasons it's a big target. In fact, right now, Wal-Mart is the subject of not one, but two documentaries about to be released, one for, one against -- two stories, one giant store. Here's a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You drive up, all the way up from New York City on Route 80 and you will see a Wal-Mart up on the hill. And then you will drive farther in to the town and you will see an -- an empty town. It looks like a neutron bomb hit it.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): It's an explosive documentary that alleges Wal-Mart has a take-no-prisoners business philosophy that is good for profits, but bad for America.
AL NORMAN: They don't get it. When we start talking about quality of life, they start talking about cheap underwear.
SANCHEZ (on camera): At this point, there's something I should tell you. When you do a story on a film that is as critical of a company as this one is about Wal-Mart, I want to talk to that company, Wal-Mart, to get their reaction.
(voice-over): Wal-Mart is not willing to go on camera. But it did provide us with a written statement saying -- quote -- "Like any company, we want to make sure our associates, customers and local community feel good about us. Wal-Mart makes life better for an awful lot of people by providing low prices and good jobs to those who need them. However, we are the first to admit we are not perfect and have worked hard to make substantive business changes in areas where we fall short."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wal-Mart, I think, doesn't do a good enough job telling its story.
SANCHEZ: So, who is speaking up for Wal-Mart? This man.
RON GALLOWAY, DOCUMENTARY PRODUCER: But Wal-Mart has closed some businesses down, but it has created others.
SANCHEZ: In fact Ron Galloway is not only speaking up for the retail giant. He's also producing a documentary in their defense, one that depicts Wal-Mart as an ingenious business plan that is good for America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many people have so many negative things to say about, but what about the positive things?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: While Galloway's pro-Wal-Mart film introduces us to grateful employees...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody did it at a time in my life where I was totally hopeless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: ... the anti-Wal-Mart film points out that, in 2001, according to court documents, workers made, on average, less than $14,000 a year. That Wal-Mart CEO made $27 million a year. It also reveals that the owners of Wal-Mart, the Walton family, has an average net worth at or near $100 billion, give or take a billion here or there, depending on the price of their stock at the time.
Now, as for the workers, or associates, as they're called by Wal- Mart, their average salary is below what the government considers the federal poverty line.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are people I see that didn't eat nothing. They would take an hour lunch and just sat there.
GALLOWAY: This young mother that I talked to in L.A. was on Medi-Cal. She got on the Wal-Mart plan and she saw a doctor for the first time.
SANCHEZ: The anti-Wal-Mart film depicts Wal-Mart as consumed with keeping wages and benefits down and unions out by flying in executives and installing cameras to monitor employees as soon as there's a hint that workers may be organizing.
The retail giant gets most of its merchandise from outside the United States in places like Honduras and Bangladesh, where, according to the film, workers make as little as 15 cents an hour and work seven days a week. But, by far, the largest provider of goods to Wal-Mart is China. How much does Wal-Mart depend on China? Company officials announced that, in 2004, they imported more than $18 billion in goods from the People's Republic.
GALLOWAY: I think Wal-Mart is a straw man for a set of issues that a certain group of people, special interest groups, have to deal in American society.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Now, this is important. Officials making the anti-Wal- Mart film say, the film is not paid for with union dues. We asked.
Also, Galloway, making the pro-Wal-Mart film, tells me that he has received no money and little support, in fact, from Wal-Mart itself. In fact, Wal-Mart has no plans at this time to even carry his video in the stores -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, whatever it does, Wal-Mart always seems to be under a microscope. Why? Because a company that big, that profitable is often imitated by other companies. And that may well affect your benefits and your career.
Take health care, for example. A Wal-Mart internal memo recently leaked spelled out just how far the retail giant may be willing to go to keep its health costs low. The question is, will other companies follow suit? And how might that affect you?
Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Out in the morning rush of Washington, D.C., like six out of 10 Americans, Tim Kane gets health insurance through his job.
TIM KANE, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: I -- I think my hands are tied. I -- I have to go through my employer.
FOREMAN: But, as an economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation, Tim supports an idea that might put other commuters into shock. Workplace health plans can be, should be and may be going away.
KANE: Americans should understand that they would be much better off if businesses weren't providing them health care, if they could buy it on the free market cheaply.
FOREMAN: This is controversial stuff. Wal-Mart, with more than 1.2 million American workers, is being criticized right now over a leaked company memo that suggests health care costs should be better contained.
Wal-Mart Watch is a new advocacy group, funded in part by labor unions, to keep an eye on how the economic giant is shaping American life.
ANDY GROSSMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WAL-MART WATCH: I think that Wal-Mart today, as we speak, is attempting to change health care for the American worker to the worst.
FOREMAN (on camera): And you're saying that affects all of us, whether or not we work for Wal-Mart?
GROSSMAN: When Wal-Mart makes a change in the way their do their business, then other businesses follow.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Wal-Mart told us in a written statement, it is expanding and improving its health insurance program. But it adds: "Every business is asking the question. How do we balance the genuine desire to provide the best benefits, while remaining competitive in the global economy?"
That's the catch. The United States is a rarity among nations in firmly tying health insurance to jobs, making it a cost of doing business. So, how did it get that way? Blame it on World War II, when fear of inflation prompted president Roosevelt to freeze wages. With so many Americans going to battle, businesses were frantic for workers. So, instead of more money, they offered health insurance.
Healthy employees are undeniably better for business, better for society, but is that Wal-Mart's responsibility?
(on camera): Well, this is a private company. What business is it of yours how they do their business?
GROSSMAN: We, the taxpayers, are paying for Wal-Mart to profit. And -- and -- and, so, therefore...
FOREMAN: And you believe that gives you a say?
GROSSMAN: Therefore, we have a say. We're stockholders. We are shareholders in the company.
FOREMAN (voice-over): A study before Congress last year said less than half of Wal-Mart employees were fully covered by the company insurance and that a significant number secure their health care from publicly subsidized programs.
George Miller from California authored that report.
REP. GEORGE MILLER (D), CALIFORNIA: I don't think that Wal-Mart either has built an acceptable system for health care for employees and they haven't really provided much to the national debate on how we can accomplish this as a -- as a nation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New at Wal-Mart...
FOREMAN: The debate over how workplace health insurance might fade and what might replace it is not just about Wal-Mart.
KANE: And Wal-Mart's trying to stay out of that mess. And it is a very tricky problem.
FOREMAN: But, when a company that big even whispers change, these days, everyone listens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: That was CNN's Tom Foreman reporting.
SANCHEZ: And we...
PHILLIPS: Rick.
SANCHEZ: We -- we continue the theme now.
Andy Serwer works for us here at CNN and for "Fortune" magazine. And he's one of the few journalists who has profiled the Walton family. That's why he's the perfect guest to talk about Wal-Mart.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Andy, thanks -- thanks so much for being with us again.
ANDY SERWER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good to see you.
SANCHEZ: You wonder, you know the Waltons. At what level will this affect them? They're about to get hit with a whole lot of bad pub.
SERWER: Well, you know, in some senses, Rick, they're used to it by now. I mean, this is a company that has come under attack for really the past 10 years in a big way, from labor unions, from people in small towns, from people in big towns.
SANCHEZ: But, this time, it is going to be in churches; it is going to be in small gather places in Middle America, with people saying some pretty horrible things. Don't your feelings get hurt -- Or are they at a different level? -- if your employees come out and say, I can't feed my kids; I'm not making enough money; you're not giving me enough benefits; you're -- you're not paying me for my overtime work?
SERWER: Well, I think the Walton family does take it personally.
I mean, their name is on the door. Their father, Sam Walton, started this company. They don't like the bad publicity, but they also feel wronged. They don't believe a lot of the charges are true. And they're really starting to fight back. And we're seeing articles describing how they have really rallied and brought tremendous efforts to bear, opening up offices in Washington and state capitals. They have a war room where they review all the criticism and they try to respond now.
SANCHEZ: But let me ask you this, as I'm sure people at home are sitting there, thinking right now about their own job. If Wal-Mart is right and if their model is right, is this the way we're going to go? Will other workers feel like, perhaps, their compensation packages, their wages are going to be perhaps either trimmed down or worse, as they allude to in this documentary?
SERWER: Well, you're talking about a race to the bottom in terms of compensation and benefits for American workers. And you're seeing this happening at Wal-Mart.
But you're also seeing it happening at big manufacturing companies. Don't forget, people at Delta, people at GM, people at Delphi are getting their wages and salaries cut, too. And that doesn't have anything to do with Wal-Mart. Having said that, Wal-Mart is the biggest employer in the country. So, they're sort of the benchmark company, the company that other companies look to, like GM in the past, and like a U.S. Steel.
So, I think other companies are looking at what Wal-Mart is doing and saying, you know, what is the new wage and pay scale in this country?
SANCHEZ: But Wal-Mart is really the king of the bottom line, aren't they?
SERWER: Sure.
SANCHEZ: They really know how to make things out of nothing. And the person who is really benefiting is the consumer, who goes in there and gets a sweater for -- for -- for $4. SERWER: Well, that -- and that is what they would say, Rick.
I mean, 1.3 million Americans work at Wal-Mart. A lot of people like working there. We have to remember that. I mean, it's not all these people who work there are unhappy. That's number one. Number two, the Wal-Mart people say, look, we are paying people, 1.3 million Americans, but hundreds of millions of Americans are benefiting from low prices. They're able to buy a VCR they might not be able to buy because we are keeping our costs low. That's their response.
SERWER: If their message is right, why aren't they putting one of their big kahunas out there to talk to Rick Sanchez, to talk to Andy and say, look, this is all wrong? Right now, they're not talking. They're -- they're not willing to go on camera.
SERWER: Well, they're just starting to.
You have to remember, this company was a very closed culture, really. It was founded by Sam Walton. He passed away in 1992. He didn't believe in talking to the press. He didn't believe in P.R. He said, all we need to do was open stores up and offer goods at low prices.
They're starting to realize that they need to respond more and more. So, they're just getting up to speed. But I think you are right. They should get out there and tell their side of the story.
SANCHEZ: Is this going to be a big hit for them?
SERWER: No. I don't think it is going to be a big hit, because there are other things out there.
You know, there's a negative documentary film about Wal-Mart. There's maybe a positive film out there as well. They are going to marshal their forces and they're going to fight back. And a lot of people like to shop at Wal-Mart.
I mean, they wouldn't be a problem to some people if they weren't so successful. People like to shop there.
SANCHEZ: They certainly do. Time will tell.
Andy, thanks so much for being with us.
SERWER: You're welcome, Rick.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: There you have it -- dueling documentaries out this month.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, the Big Easy suddenly split in two -- how people in the same city are living different lives two months after Katrina. We will take you there.
PHILLIPS: Plus, he's a convicted killer, a co-founder of a violent street gang. Now he's on death row. So, why are so many people trying to save his life?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: It is time now to check on some of the other stories that are happening tonight. And, for that, we go to Erica Hill from Headline News.
Hello, Erica.
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Rick. Good to see you.
We begin tonight in Iraq with a bloody end to the Muslim holy month of Ramadan -- 27 people killed in three separate attacks today, the worst in a town 45 miles south of Baghdad, where a suicide bomber blew up a mini-bus in a busy shopping area. Elsewhere, a U.S. soldier was killed in attack near Balad, and two Marines died in a helicopter crash near Ramadi.
Bagram, Afghanistan, now, where a senior al Qaeda operative is apparently on the loose. Pentagon officials say Omar al-Farouq escaped from U.S. custody back in July. Al-Farouq had set up the first al Qaeda camps in Southeast Asia. He was captured in Indonesia in 2002, then turned over to U.S. officials, who brought him to Afghanistan.
In Detroit, Michigan, thousands paying tribute today at the funeral of Rosa Parks -- many prominent figures were in attendance, including the Reverends Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, as well as former President Bill Clinton. Parks inspired the civil rights movement, of course, when she refused to give up her bus -- her seat on a bus to a white man in 1955. She died last week at the age of 92.
And, in Los Angeles, a massive protest against the Bush administration shuts down parts of the city. The afternoon, then evening demonstrations organized by the group The World Can't Wait led police to close many streets around a federal building in West L.A. There were some confrontations with police. One officer's uniform caught fire after a molotov cocktail was thrown his way.
Quite the demonstration there, Rick.
SANCHEZ: It certainly looks like it. Erica, thanks so much. We will look for you in just a little bit -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, for more than two months, we have seen the havoc that Mother Nature can cause. We have watched, from our homes, Katrina's destructive force and people struggling in its aftermath.
Even now, it is impossible to grasp the tragedy along the Gulf Coast. There are so many parts to it.
So, tonight, CNN's Dan Simon shows us a different angle, a new divide forming in the Big Easy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times," the famous words of Charles Dickens in "A Tale of Two Cities." Here in New Orleans, that 19th century text resonates, as it feels, literally, like two cities have emerged since Hurricane Katrina, one filled with anger and desperation.
DAISY PETERS, RESIDENT OF NINTH WARD: Nobody's trying to help. Nobody's trying to do nothing.
SIMON: But here, across the river, on what locals call the west bank, they have different problems, the kind you don't mind having, like where to get coffee or go shopping. Here, it is about progress and optimism.
DON PAOLO, RESIDENT OF ALGIERS POINT: The biggest complaint we have is, we never know when the garbage is being picked up.
JOY PAOLO, RESIDENT OF ALGIERS POINT: Big deal, right?
SIMON (on camera): Yes.
J. PAOLO: I mean, you know. So, it's all relative.
SIMON (voice-over): Don and Joy Paolo live across the river from the devastation in a place called Algiers Point. We found the retired couple relaxing on their porch.
J. PAOLO: The play on words, this is the West Bank. But the people here call it the blessed bank.
SIMON: They Paolos bounced back quickly after evacuating to Ohio. While they came back to mold and a busted heater, their problems seem minuscule.
D. PAOLO: One of the biggest problems we have over here, truthfully, is traffic.
SIMON: There is no traffic in other parts of town. This is the devastated Lower Ninth Ward, restaurants, gas stations closed, neighborhoods vacant, filled with trash. Contrast that with Algiers, where carved pumpkins dot the landscape and most of the stores, even little cafes, are open for business.
PETERS: We are just isolated. We are like an island over here. We are isolated from the whole city.
SIMON: Daisy Peters' feelings are understandable -- her house in ruins. Other than the help of a few family members clearing away debris, she is on her own.
PETERS: I am very, very, very disgusted with this place.
SIMON (on camera): Who are your disgusted with?
PETERS: The governor and mayor and FEMA and all of them.
SIMON: You feel like they just don't care?
PETERS: I feel like they do not care.
SIMON (voice-over): Government officials say they do care, but the magnitude of destruction makes rebuilding very difficult. There's no drinkable water and little, if any, electricity here, and no plan yet for restoring the neighborhood.
PETERS: I'm not giving this house away. If somebody -- they don't want to rebuild down here, somebody need to see me about this house, because I'm not giving it to nobody.
SIMON: Daisy decides to take a rest. They're also resting at the Paolo house, but in a different way.
Dan Simon, CNN, New Orleans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, whether you have lost your entire home or just a few things, a loss hurts. And one of our own here at CNN has felt the pain of Katrina.
"AMERICAN MORNING" executive producer Kim Bondy has a house in New Orleans. "AMERICAN MORNING" anchor Miles O'Brien was with Kim today as she got some expert opinions on the damage to her home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIM BONDY, CNN, MORNING PROGRAMMING: This room was an addition to the house. It originally had paneling, and then when I bought the house in 2001, I had new walls put in. So this is all new drywall in here. So the mold growth is pretty substantial.
O'BRIEN (voice-over): The sunroom at Kim Bondy's house in New Orleans sure could use a little sun. Perhaps it might bake away the multilayered mold that covers the walls and fouls the air.
RUSTY AMARANTE, PROPERTY RESTORATION EXPERT: You've got so much moisture in here. So much damage. This -- the mold just feeds off of itself.
O'BRIEN: Kim invited veteran property restoration expert Rusty Amarante to tour her once upon a dream home, which sat in standing fetid water for two-and-a-half weeks after the levees broke. Not a pretty picture, but Rusty Amarante has seen it all before.
BONDY: Would you recommend that a room like this be sort of torn down and start all over?
AMARANTE: I don't think you need to tear it down. I think you need to thoroughly gut it.
O'BRIEN: Gutting a house, stripping it to the bones like a Thanksgiving turkey, seems like a bitter pill for the average homeowner. But Rusty has a way of putting things in perspective. AMARANTE: Really you're just talking about redoing the interior building envelope here. So as devastating as it is, you're really kind of fortunate, because once you take out the plaster, once you take out the insulation, make sure that the inside of the building is dry, the foundation is dry, you can really start the rebuilding process.
O'BRIEN: But what about the structure of the house? Any osteoporosis in those bones?
BONDY: From what I can see of the brick from the outside, it looks very solid.
O'BRIEN: For some answers Kim called in another expert, Elizabeth English, a professor who studies how buildings weather hurricanes.
ELIZABETH ENGLISH, PROFESSOR, LSU HURRICANE CENTER: Crawl space.
BONDY: Crawl space.
I've never even looked underneath there.
O'BRIEN: But Elizabeth did, and it looks pretty good.
ENGLISH: Still a little damp down here, and that needs to dry out. But, you know, you don't have a problem with rot at this point.
O'BRIEN: It was a cursory inspection, a few pokes and peeks.
ENGLISH: This is very good solid construction here.
O'BRIEN: But enough to make Elizabeth a big believer in the Bondy bungalow.
(on camera) If this were you your house, what would you do?
ENGLISH: I'd fix it up.
O'BRIEN: Yes?
ENGLISH: Absolutely. Absolutely. This house is not -- is not a goner. This house -- this house can be repaired and brought back to life, and it's bringing the individual houses back to life that will bring the neighborhood back to life. And bringing the New Orleans neighborhoods back to life is what will bring the city back to life.
Miles O'Brien, CNN, New Orleans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: And you can catch "AMERICAN MORNING"'s Miles O'Brien and Soledad O'Brien every morning on "AMERICAN MORNING" beginning at 7:00 a.m. Eastern.
And, you know, just watching that piece, I talked to friends of mine living in New Orleans, saying, they're getting contractors to come out and give them estimates. One friend had three contractors come out. And the difference in prices...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes. It is amazing.
PHILLIPS: It is amazing. You have got to be really careful who you pick to take on the job.
SANCHEZ: The waters have receded, but the problems haven't.
PHILLIPS: Keep rising.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, politics makes strange bedfellows. Would you believe that some liberal Democrats might support President Bush's Supreme Court nominee, Samuel Alito? We are going to explain this one to you.
PHILLIPS: And why are so many people trying to keep a convicted killer from getting the death penalty -- that story straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Ever since President Bush said the name Samuel Alito, we have been hearing from both extremes of the political spectrum. The far right loves the Supreme Court nominee, as you might imagine. The far left can't stand him.
We're learning, though, that some Democrats, liberal Democrats, are willing to give Alito a chance.
CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meet Jeffrey Wasserstein, former law clerk for Judge Sam Alito.
JEFFREY WASSERSTEIN, FORMER LAW CLERK FOR JUDGE SAMUEL ALITO: I think you look at the totality of his career and what you see is a judge squarely within the mainstream.
CROWLEY: Wasserstein is a liberal Democrat, except when he votes Green Party. And he is not alone.
WASSERSTEIN: He's hired liberals, conservatives, libertarians, independents. And all I know is that we're all unanimously supporting the judge for his -- in his nomination.
CROWLEY: The kind of testimony that may make it easier for people like Senator Ben Nelson, the third Democrat to get an up-close- and-personal look at the president's Supreme Court nominee. A Democrat from Nebraska, a state that went Bush in '04, Nelson is one of five red-state Democrats up for reelection in '06 who would rather vote than fight.
SEN. BEN NELSON (D), NEBRASKA: I just hope that we're able to work our way through and -- and make an up-or-down decision on this judge.
CROWLEY: He's not even a member of the Judiciary Committee, but Nelson and other Democrats are targets of opportunity for the White House, which hopes to pad Republican support for Alito with enough Democrats to discourage and, if needed, defeat a filibuster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALES AND FEMALES: No, no, no. Alito will not save Roe. No, no, no.
CROWLEY: Here's the Democrats' problem: The party's base support, liberal women's group, civil rights groups, environmental groups, the foot soldiers that raise money, knock on doors and vote, come rain or shine, want to fight over Alito, an argument that finds sympathy in blue-state Democrats, like Illinois Dick Durbin.
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: It could tip the balance for a generation in another direction on critical issues, women's rights and workers' rights, the right of privacy, protecting the environment, human rights, civil rights. All of these things are at stake in this nomination.
CROWLEY: The filibuster fight to please Democratic activists could alienate the kind of centrists who vote for both George Bush and Ben Nelson in the same state, which is why the word filibuster makes Ben Nelson dance.
NELSON: You know, the word filibuster keeps coming up in the questions, rather than in the answers. But you don't rule it out. But nobody is ruling it in.
CROWLEY: While Democrats still hold out the possibility of a filibuster, the competing need to please the base and reach to the center makes it hard to find consensus, all of which could bode well for Sam Alito, who may get by with a little help from his friends.
WASSERSTEIN: There was never an ideological or political consideration in how he viewed cases.
CROWLEY (on camera): So, a judge's judge?
WASSERSTEIN: A judge's judge, absolutely.
CROWLEY (voice-over): Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: (INAUDIBLE) of one of the nation's most notorious street gangs is facing a death penalty. Coming up, who's trying to save his life and why? Also, the survivors of that massive South Asian earthquake are facing a new and even deadlier, if you can believe it, threat. From around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: In a few weeks, the state of California is planning to execute Tookie Williams, the man who co-founded one of the country's most notorious street gangs. You may have seen the Crips or seen them portrayed in the movies. Well, Williams is a convicted killer, but people all over the country are trying to save his life.
CNN's Chris Lawrence looks into why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS LAWERNCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Actor Jamie Foxx is asking California's governor to spare the life of the man he played on screen. Stanley "Tookie" Williams co-founded the Crips street gang. He robbed and murdered, he was convicted of his crimes in 1981. But from his cell on death row, Williams spent years writing children's books and preaching against gang violence.
EDGAR MEDINA, HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT: And if he dies, some people are not going to have the opportunity to learn from his mistakes.
LAWRENCE: Edgar Medina read the books and says Williams convinced him to stay in school.
MEDINA: If I would have been in a gang right now, I would probably be in jail, dead.
LAWRENCE: Instead, he's 15, on track to graduate and go to college.
WESLEY MCBRIDE, FORMER L.A. COUNTY SHERIFF: I heard one report where they say he saved 150,000 kids from joining gangs. That's absurd. How do you know that?
LAWRENCE: Retired sergeant Wes McBride worked the gang detail for 26 years in L.A. County.
MCBRIDE: It's not against the law to be a gang member. It's against the law to kill people and that's what he's convicted of.
LAWRENCE: A witness says Williams robbed and executed a 7-Eleven employee, then made fun of the man as he died. He was also convicted of gunning down an entire family, father, mother and daughter.
MCBRIDE: Writing a few books doesn't exonerate you from your crimes.
LAWRENCE: In Williams' case, it won't. On December 13th, he's scheduled to die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I am at this time signing a warrant of execution.
LAWRENCE (on camera): Williams' books are part of his legacy. So are the Crips. In 30 years the gang has spread from California to just about every state in the country.
(voice-over): Fred Jackson works with kids who grow up surrounded by gangs. He says they really listen to Williams. Don't tune him out like cops or counselors.
FRED JACKSON, YOUTH INSTRUCTOR: To kill Stan will be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
LAWRENCE: Jackson says executing Williams sends the wrong message.
JACKSON: You would be telling gang members or those wannabe gang members, don't care how you turn your life around, watch, you are stuck. You are stuck.
LAWRENCE: No condemned murder has been granted clemency in California since 1967. The odds are against any man, even one like Tookie Williams who was nominated for a Nobel Peace prize.
MCBRIDE: But he didn't win it. You know? And even if he did, does that mean you're forgiven for murdering a whole family? No, I don't think so.
LAWRENCE: Like his life, Tookie Williams' legacy will be complicated.
Chris Lawrence, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well, among those who believe Tookie Williams' life should be spared is Lewis Yablonsky, a criminologist, expert in gang behavior, and author of the book "Gangsters," he joins us now live.
Sir, let me ask you, why do you think Tookie should not die?
DR. LEWIS YABLONSKY, CRIMINALOGIST: Well, I've been studying gangs for 50 years. And we're always looking for solutions. Here's a man who has changed his lifestyle. I've read all his books. He was significant in contributing some theories to my book, "Gangsters." And I think he can be a positive force in turning around young gangsters.
In fact, there are several programs in the California Department of Corrections where ex-offenders, some lifers, are working with young offenders very effectively: the Amity program in several prisons, Phoenix program in several prisons. And I've seen the impact of lifers, individuals who are what I would refer to as experienced therapists. These are individuals who have been there like Tookie. They have gone through a transformation as he has over a period of 20 years. And they can have a real impact on some of the younger offenders to not go down their path and end up in the -- being executed. PHILLIPS: Well, you know, he writes in his memoir, it was -- he says, daily, he spent studying and questioning and soul searching. He said he began to develop a sense of critical reasoning from which sprang the first stirrings of conscience. "This was the moment when redemption infused itself into my life." You read this writing and you think, wow, this is somebody who killed three people? Do you believe that murderers can be reformed? Is this man healthy? If he were to walk the streets again, would he never kill again?
YABLONSKY: We are not talking about letting him out of prison. We are talking about clemency to give him life without parole where we don't kill him. And I have already made some efforts to put him into a particular program where he would be effective.
One of the major gang problems -- of the insanity of gang problems is young black men killing young black men and Hispanic kids killing Hispanic kids. Tookie...
PHILLIPS: He talks a lot about black-on-black crime.
YABLONSKY: Right. And Tookie has come up with some interesting observations about why this goes on. They're good enough to put him in my theoretical book on "Gangsters," and I think he could be very effective in a program. And as I have indicated I have already talked to the director of a program in the California prison system.
And if Governor Schwarzenegger really means what he says about the California Department of Corrections with emphasis on corrections and rehabilitation, he should spare his life. He's really the only one that can do it. And as I...
PHILLIPS: Well, Lewis, let me ask you, let's say he is granted clemency, what do you say to the victims' families?
YABLONSKY: Well, we talk about redemption. We talk about forgiveness. Let's put it this way, 25 years ago, I was a different person than I am now. I think Tookie Williams, from my communications with him, is a different person today than when he was convicted of these crimes.
I'm not excusing the crimes and I'm not necessarily against the death penalty. Some individuals, perhaps, should get the death penalty, but this is a man who can contribute to our society, and he can be effective. I know how police officers -- I know how police officers feel about it, but...
PHILLIPS: I know. And you've been studying this for more than 30 years. Lewis Yablonsky, I thank you, sir, so much for your time.
And we talked about family members and Lora Owens is the stepmother of Albert Owens, the convenience store worker that Tookie Williams was convicted of killing. She joins us now by phone.
And I appreciate your time, Laura. I want to take a moment to talk about Albert, if you don't mind, and just remind us about his life. LORA OWENS, STEPMOTHER OF VICTIM: OK.
PHILLIPS: Go ahead, Laura.
OWENS: Thank you for having me on. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to even speak about Albert. He seems to be the forgotten one. Unfortunately, the Owens family studied gangs, specifically the gang that Williams had because it affected our life. Do you have any idea the impact that it has had on the Owens family? See the picture of my son?
PHILLIPS: We see him.
OWENS: That's a man that went out, he wanted to make a honest living, where Williams goes out to take whatever he wants.
PHILLIPS: You want...
OWENS: Now we have a major impact, life is different now because of what Williams did to the Owens family. Life is a lot different. I don't have to study gangs. I only have to study what Williams did, a big difference.
PHILLIPS: Lora, is death the answer? Does Tookie Williams need to die? Is that what would make you feel better, would make your family feel better?
OWENS: It's called closure, Ms. Phillips, that's what it's called, because when someone like Williams can do all of these things, what has he paid? He doesn't even say he's guilty. He says he's innocent. All right. So you have to do that with all of the appeals. He says he is sorry, for what? That he didn't get away with it?
He could do so much to stop gangs. Is he? No. He doesn't do any of that. What he does is find somebody who's willing to write for him, somebody who's out there with the cause. Williams isn't the important one in this right-to-life cause, it is the fact that it's a cause and he has got all of these people behind him. They haven't walked where the Owens family has walked. They haven't had to take someone who's been murdered and try to build a life without him.
PHILLIPS: Lora, Tookie has this apology that he's written that of course he wants everybody to hear. Part of it says: "I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering caused by gang violence will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others. I vow to spend the rest of my life working towards solutions." Does that give you sense of peace?
OWENS: He didn't write it to us. That's not who he wrote that to. He wrote that to further his gang connections. That's who he's writing that to. He didn't write that to the Owens family.
PHILLIPS: Lora Owens, stepmother of Albert Owen, we sure appreciate your time. I know this is difficult a period for you and your family. Thank you, Lora. OWENS: Thank you very much.
SANCHEZ: A different perspective. We brought you the tale of two cities and now we bring you the tale of two families.
PHILLIPS: And it will be interesting to see what happens. There are a lot of people protesting, and a lot of people that want to see him die.
SANCHEZ: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, winter is coming to the mountains of Pakistan, will millions of those who survived last month's massive earthquake now succumb to something else, bitter cold?
Also...
PHILLIPS: The City of Lights is aflame with torched cars. A frightening week of violence continues in Paris.
NEWSNIGHT will return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Here's a follow-up. High in the Himalaya Mountains, tragedy is ready to strike once again. First it came in the form of a massive earthquake. Soon, though, it may be the freezing temperatures and the snow of a bitter winter that's going to take a terrible toll, the numbers already brutal. Death toll 80,000 by some counts and climbing. Another 800,000 without shelter. Not even a tent in some cases. More than 2 million in need of food, many in mountain regions where relief trucks or even helicopters can't seem to get to.
Now ITV's Bill Neely reports, this is from the Kashmir region, that's the area right between India and Pakistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL NEELY, ITV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The helicopters are still busy here. But the weather is worsening. There are days they won't fly and places they won't go. Into one of these today came Save the Children, driving a convoy of 200 tents, 6,000 feet up into one of Kashmir's most remote corners. There waiting, hundreds of villagers, this aid, the difference between life and death.
One man at least has suffered enough death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven kids, one mom and one wife. >> reporter: lost seven children.
NEELY (on camera): He lost his seven children?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven children. He lost his seven children, plus his wife and his mom.
NEELY: Even the blind walked for hours across a mountain to get here. The tents, blankets and clothes, their only protection against a brutal winter. It's a race here against time and against the heavy snows that are on their way.
(on camera): In about two weeks' time, these mountains and this valley will be covered in snow. And the logic of survival then is brutally simple. Anyone without shelter will die. The problem is there aren't enough tents here or anywhere else, so a second disaster that the U.N. says could kill thousands isn't just looming, it's highly likely.
(voice-over): These children survived the earthquake, 20,000 didn't. The common cold and hunger could carry off thousands more. So they struggle away with their tents and even the aid workers who have been through the tsunami struggle to cope here.
SAM RUSH, SAVE THE CHILDREN: Logistically it's the worst without a doubt. It's getting high in mountains, the roads that we came up now were pretty perilous to say the least. But we could get vehicles up. We're talking about a lot of places that have got no vehicular access whatsoever. Then we're talking meal trains and helicopters and we're really running out of time. It's quite a serious situation.
NEELY (on camera): The tsunami was much easier to deal with than this?
RUSH: The tsunami didn't have winter coming. I mean, here, we have just got this hammer blow that's going to come down very, very shortly.
NEELY (voice-over): The first disaster was an act of God. A second can be prevented but time and aid money is running out. As we left, night fell and the first snow fell, too. It didn't settle but it will soon. Pakistan's mountain people are braced for another terrible test.
Bill Neely, ITV News, Naganari, Kashmir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIPS: Well in a moment, how sweet it is "On the Rise." But first we turn to Erica Hill in Atlanta with some other stories making headlines right now.
Hi, Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hey, Kyra, good to see you tonight.
We start off with a question many asking tonight, could there have been a way out of the Iraq war before it started? A senior official from the United Arab Emirates tells CNN Saddam Hussein was ready to accept exile there to avoid war. But then just days before war broke out, Saddam's demands were not met and the deal fell through.
In the troubled suburbs of Paris, a seventh straight night of violence sparked by the accidental deaths of two teens. About 180 cars have been torched at this point. Police are hesitant to venture into the largely African and Muslim neighborhoods, but they have fired rubber bullets and teargas and gangs of young people throwing stones.
And finally tonight, the world famous Radio City Rockettes not kicking up their heels tonight. The precision dancers walked off the job at an evening dress rehearsal for the annual Christmas spectacular to support striking musicians. No word on whether or not they walked off in step, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Oh, have you seen the costumes, by the way?
HILL: They're amazing.
PHILLIPS: Oh, I had to interview two of these beautiful women. And first of all, they're like 6'2" and the feathers are taller than fitting into this box.
HILL: And heavy, too.
PHILLIPS: Exactly.
HILL: I don't think I can be a show girl. I can't pull it off.
PHILLIPS: No, you stick with what you're doing. Thank you, Erica.
HILL: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: You two stop.
PHILLIPS: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, a sweeter than average story, much, much sweeter as we belly up to the bar, the candy bar. Don't get any ideas.
SANCHEZ: Got it. Got it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: With Halloween on our minds, you know what we thought of? We thought of Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Duh, dad, as my daughter would say. To Dylan Lauren, though, who inherited business smarts from her father, that would be Ralph Lauren. The film was a big screen candy-coated business plan. That's why she as you will see is now "On the Rise."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DYLAN LAUREN, DYLAN'S CANDY BAR: Hi, I'm Dylan Lauren and I am a candy lover. So I decided to take my passion and create the world's largest candy store and fill it with candy and anything candy related. That's what Dylan's Candy Bar is. It's (INAUDIBLE) candy. I was inspired when I was younger by "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory."
And just a bunch of stores that have a sort of entertainment philosophy and I just thought there's not anything like that in the candy business that, you know, FAO had it with toys, or Niketown has it with sneakers.
I thought, wouldn't be fun for even me as a candy freak to just walk in and have this like oversized -- emporium of oversized lollipops.
I have four stores at the moment. I'm hoping to open a good 20 more. The flagship's in New York City. The other Dylan's Candy Bars are in Houston, Orlando and Roosevelt Field.
Well, this is my office. I have always loved candy. The first was about the taste. I loved Gummi bears and Gummi fish.
I just always started to look at candy packaging and as an art history major, also was influenced by a lot of pop artists.
This is our stripe which are on our bags and logos.
I really loved the art and candy.
Did you like the ones that we were talking about for the malls though?
Our theme is to basically merge pop culture, art, fashion with candy and also to have like the largest assortment of colors and flavors.
This is our body shake. It is a milk bubble bath chocolate.
You know, just carry candy, per se, to eat. We have a spa product, like chocolate bath powders and vanilla body moisturizers. We're expanding into our own Dylan's Candy Bar spa line.
Our customer is really the kid in the adult and it's anyone.
I think the candy store brings out the kid in everyone and I definitely am -- I don't know, people don't know how old I am. And people think I'm 15 because I love candy and I love colors. But I have a mature sensibility about it, too. But I think you have to have a sort of attitude of creativity and fun and anything is possible.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Coming up, a special hour of NEWSNIGHT, "Winning the War on Terror," how other nations are fighting terrorism and what we in the U.S. are learning from them. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And we move now into the next hour of NEWSNIGHT, "Winning the War on Terror."
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: From secret prisons to target assassinations, a special edition of NEWSNIGHT begins right now.
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