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At This Hour

Violent Protests over St. Louis Police Shooting Teen; Will Israeli/Palestine Cease-Fire Last; Rep. Mike Turner Talks Obama's Foreign Policy

Aired August 11, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We have some live pictures to show you right now from Ferguson, Missouri, protests over the shooting death of a teenager by a police officer. The town woke up to this headline in the paper. Really says it all, hopefully. There it says, "Day of Protests, Night of Frenzy".

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: It certainly was. 32 people were arrested after protests turned violent on the outskirts of St. Louis. Police donned riot gear to try and calm dozens of people that were angry have a police officer shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown over the weekend.

I want to bring back in our George Howell who is live in Ferguson, Missouri.

We understand that you have with you the police chief from Ferguson, Chief Tom Jackson -- George?

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.

And Chief Jackson, thank you so much for taking time with us.

Look, we see people marching here in your city. Some people are accusing your police department of lying about what happened, because there are two different stories. What your department is saying and what witnesses say they saw. How do you account for the discrepancies between these two stories?

TOM JACKSON, CHIEF, FERGUSON, MISSOURI, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, what the police department is going to release is only what we know. And it's actually not my police department that's going to release that. We immediately turned this investigation over to St. Louis County Police Department, and they are going to be slow with their information. There's an autopsy. There's blood reports, you know, the pharmacology that has to come through, and there's going to be lots of witnesses to interview. The officer who did the shooting, had to be interviewed a couple of times. And so it's just a long drawn- out process. The county has assured me that they are expediting this investigation, but it's going to take time with the toxicology and everything.

HOWELL: Certainly, you can understand people -- the frustration as information is slowly released, but what can you tell us about the timeline? When will people get more answers about exactly what happened there from police?

JACKSON: As the information comes available, it will be released to the public. And honestly, I've asked to be so separated from the investigation so as to avoid even the appearance of impropriety that I'm only going to get the information that you get, the press gets. So from that standpoint, they are only going to release what they know and they are going to release it pretty much as they know it. But in the end, what's going to happen is they will have a complete investigation which they will present to the St. Louis County prosecuting attorneys office and he will make his determination on whether to charge and what to charge.

PEREIRA: John, Michaela, given that we have the police chief here, is there anything else that you guys would like to ask him while he's here?

Absolutely.

BERMAN: Chief Jackson, I understand there's a long way to go. Just to confirm, this young man, Michael Brown, he was unarmed, correct?

JACKSON: That's correct. There was only one weapon fired and that was the officer's weapon.

BERMAN: And what is the status right now of the demonstrations and the protests? I understand there were 32 arrests made overnight. Does your force feel like it has the situation under control? Do you think that we will see any more outbreaks of the violence that we saw overnight?

JACKSON: I hope that we don't have any more violence. I've been in touch with all the community leaders and they have promised me that they will do everything they can to keep this nonviolent, a peaceful protest, which is what we want. We want them to be able to air their grievances, to express their frustration, but we can't have another night like last night. So we hope it doesn't happen, but we're prepared for the worst.

PEREIRA: I think we can all agree with you that we can't have another night like last night. That was there in Ferguson. I think people all around the nation watched that with horror.

But, chief, you got an opportunity right now. The black community is angry as you've seen last night. They are hurting. You have an opportunity to speak to them right now. What would you like to hear from your mouth?

JACKSON: The healing started the moment this happened. This is a terrible tragedy. Nobody wanted this to happen but what we want to do is we want to heal. We want to build trust with the community, and part of that is to have a transparent, open investigation, conducted by an outside party, and then for me to engage and the police department to engage with the community leaders which has already started. I've had meeting over meeting over the last 48 hours with many of the community leaders and that's going to continue. We've promised to engage each other and we've already got meetings set up for the future. So what really needs to happen is communication. We need to understand each other's frustrations and each other's concerns and try to see things from each other's point of view. And when we can do that, we're going to be able to better provide safety and security for the community.

PEREIRA: You've got a grieving mother who is burying her son. He was supposed to start technical college today. I understand school classes have been canceled in the school district in light of all what happened there. Have you had a chance to speak to that mother and the father?

JACKSON: I spoke to the mother, actually, at the scene, just briefly, her and a couple of community leaders, and I. We had a very -- very hostile crowd and it was getting to be a tense situation and we did walk around together and she was able to get people to move back and to calm down. But she's a wonderful, gracious woman, and I will be speaking to her again.

BERMAN: What do you think needs to be addressed in terms of police practices here? Because the facts of this case, we don't know many of them, but we do know there was only one weapon. It was the police officer's weapon. This was a young man who was on the street. Do police forces around the country need to readdress how they use force in situations like this?

JACKSON: We actually do continuously readdress our practices and our procedures, our weapons, our less lethal weapons, our hand-to-hand tactics, but things happen. And in this case, I know it seems like it's similar to other cases. But what I would really hope is that we can allow the investigation to play out because there's lots of physical evidence. There's lots of witness testimony, and there's a lot of information that can be pulled together. And I really believe that we can get to the truth of what happened here. And, of course, we will learn from that, and that shooting situation always create training situations, and police tactic get better and better and the weapons and the tactics available to us are constantly improving.

HOWELL: Chief, I wanted to ask you, as well, we just saw this crowd come back behind us. What do you think about that? I mean, this march in your city, people are demanding an answer for what happened. For you, living here as a resident and as the police chief, what does it mean to you to see this happening on your streets?

JACKSON: It breaks my heart. Last night was the worst night of my life. I've never seen anything like it. And I hope that I never see anything like it again. Right now, this is peaceful. And they are telling me and they are telling the city that they are not happy with what happened, the way things are, and they want answers. And I understand that fully. But, yeah, we're neighbors, and we're a community.

HOWELL: Chief Jackson, thank you so much for your time.

JACKSON: My pleasure. HOWELL: And again, we understand, guys, that this march will continue

here in front of the police department. The mayor has told me that it was allowed. It will be allowed to continue, but just so long as it remains peaceful. We know that police are nearby. Some with batons, we saw earlier, just in case to prevent what we saw the other night, guys.

PEREIRA: Well, it's early in the day. We know how things can escalate with night. Hopefully, community leaders can urge calm and they can begin the process of healing.

I don't believe it's begun yet, John. It has a long way to go to gain back the trust of the police department. Don't just in that community but in other communities.

BERMAN: I appreciate George Howell being with us, and the police chief as well.

He said, last night was the worst night of his life. I think there are others in the community who feel the same way, including the family of that young boy who was now dead.

PEREIRA: 18 years old.

BERMAN: Healing not even begun there.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, it has been quiet for several hours in Gaza. The question about this cease-fire, will it hold? We'll discuss the Arab community's reaction to the latest truce in this conflict.

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PEREIRA: The latest cease-fire between Israel and then Hamas appears to be holding. Both sides have agreed to halt attacks for three days while talks for a lasting peace continue in Egypt.

BERMAN: I want to bring in by Shibley Telhami, professor at the University of Maryland, and the author of the book "The World Through Arab Eyes.

Professor, thanks so much for being with us.

This is the second 72-hour cease-fire we've had, the second time these two sides have sat down at the table for discussions here. But these are not small issues at play here. In some ways, these are very big issues that have kept peace from being there for a long time. Israel wants a demilitarized Hamas. Hamas wants an open port and open borders there. How likely is it to make any significant progress at the table?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND & AUTHOR: I would say that chance of renewal of violence is really higher than a deal. In large part because I don't see a win-win and I don't think that each side has explored the limit of the other enough. So these cease- fires are partly tactical, partly for humanitarian reasons, but partly because Israel says I'm not going to negotiate under fire. Hamas think that's the only leverage it has. They go for these short-term cease-fires without getting some concessions so they go for these short-term cease-fires, but the gap remains wide. If Hamas doesn't get a port out of it and is still dependent on Israel and Egypt for opening, it's going to be seen to have lost politically. The Israelis are not going to allow that in part because they think it could be used for violence and it might strengthen Hamas. They are both testing each other, which leads me to believe the chances we're going to have an escalation are higher than the chance for a deal.

PEREIRA: We've seen the numbers. If you look at the casualties on either side, the Israelis seem to have more fire power. They have the Iron Dome. They are not suffering as many casualties as on the other side. But at the same time, you talk about the fact that this might just be a chance to just take a breath and continue on. Are we destined to be reliving this forever? Every couple of years, we're going to see this escalation renew?

TELHAMI: You know what, as long as you don't have a real comprehensive peace that ends the occupation and brings security to Israel, yes, you are going to have this, cyclical. We've had it. We've had it, 2006 a war with Hezbollah, 2008, 2009, with Hamas, 2012, now, 2014, and likely another two years if we don't have it. Yes, people who look at this, like me -- analysts have been studying this for years -- understand these fixes aren't going to work. In the short term, you've got to save lives and you got to find a way to get to the table for broadest negotiations. That's where we are now but the gap is so wide.

You say the losses. They are huge on both sides, but especially on the Palestinian side. Obvious devastation, death, destruction. That's why Hamas, having just lost the economic losses, 300 to 400 percent of the GDP, they can't deal with that. If you go to square one, where they were before, they are much worse off. And that would be considered a loss for them. That's why I think they want to get something out of it, if they are going to agree to a long term cease- fire. So, yes, they are prepared to pay a heavier price I think to try to get some more out of it.

BERMAN: Professor Telhami, thanks so much for being with us. We'll watch these negotiations and discussions. Sobering that you think a chance for violence is greater than a chance for peace.

TELHAMI: And I hope I'm wrong.

PEREIRA: We do, too. We really do.

Thanks so much.

Ahead @THISHOUR, Hillary Clinton bashing the president's foreign policy, calling him too cautious in dealing with the Middle East. We're going to talk to a U.S. congressman from Ohio about what he thinks the president should be doing.

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PEREIRA: We have people in the Middle East and around the world, Hillary Clinton took a bit of a shot at the president's foreign policy this weekend. The former secretary of state told "The Atlantic," quote, "Great nations need organizing principles and 'don't do stupid stuff' is not an organizing principle."

Clinton is just the latest voice to criticize the president for being too cautious on foreign policy.

BERMAN: The political dictionary defines that as distance, creating distance between herself and President Obama.

Joining us now is Republican U.S. Congressman Mike Turner. Thanks so much for being with us. Senior member of the House Armed Services Committee.

Congressman, what we know what's happening today, the United States, we're told, by the Associated Press, providing weapons directly to the Kurds in the north. You've seen the air strikes in several locations against the ISIS militants. Aid drops of aid to the Yazidis trapped on that mountain. Is the president doing enough with the situation in Iraq?

REP. MIKE TURNER, (R), OHIO: Absolutely not. The president continues to talk about small steps of basically military strategy, what should he do and how should it be done. We're really talking policy. The president has stepped away from Iraq. After he looked at the military strategy of withdrawing U.S. troops, he left there without having a policy. We see the same in Egypt, Syria. Where the president of the United States has left a vacuum, we've seen this type of disarray.

And we know one thing. ISIS didn't just show up out of thin air. ISIS was being organized. And it was absolutely a threat that the president should have been responding to.

PEREIRA: What do you say to the parents of young men and women who are reluctant to have their young men and women be sent back? The president has said he's not going to put more boots on the ground, that the air strikes will be enough, and they'll probably go on for a number of months. Do they need to be gearing up for another war in Iraq?

TURNER: Well, I think this has to be measured in approach of what's done. Obviously, this gets to the issue of military which follows policy. But the real issue is this. This is a threat to the United States, and our national security. It's the same thing that every men and women who has served in our armed forces know, is they serve to make sure we're safe here at home and our country is safe. But nobody is saying we should march troops into Iraq. What they're saying is the president has allowed this situation to degrade. The situation we have today is because he walked away from Iraq and has not executed a policy. He's not paid attention to the situation emerging. This did not develop overnight. Yet, he's trying to look at it to see what a small measured response might be to turn it around and that's certainly not enough.

BERMAN: But he's walked away from a country right now that's been in a degree of political upheaval for some time, that, up until this point, has been run by somebody, the U.S. and a lot of people in Iraq don't trust. I'm talking about Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki. Today, a new prime minister has been named. But doesn't this just bolster the administration's case that they didn't want to be connected to a guy who was, for lack of a better word, a shady operator there? There's been a new prime minister appointed. And he's hinted strongly over the last several hours that he doesn't plan to go.

TURNER: Well, completely walking away is not the answer to being concerned with who the leader is. If there was an issue the administration had as it was developing, they should have been at the table. They should have been actively working. The president has been hands-off in a number of conflicts with no post strategy, no plan, no policy. Whether it's Libya, where he actively worked to remove Moammar Gadhafi and has no post-Gadhafi plan. Whether it's Egypt, where, again, he worked there to actively look to Mubarak being moved and no post-Mubarak plan. And then Syria with his issues of, you know, calling for Assad to be removed but then no plan. And then Iraq, same thing. Military action, where he removed U.S. troops but did not continue U.S. influence while ISIS in Syria was allowed to become emboldened and strengthened. Again, no action from the president as the threat occurred. For him now to say we didn't like the guy in charge is a little bit too late. They should have been actively working and influencing the outcome in Iraq.

BERMAN: Of course, you know there are plenty of Democrats and war critics who will say that all of this is a result of an invasion of Iraq with no post-invasion plan, mirroring, I think, your criticism of Obama over the last few years.

TURNER: Certainly, there was a plan. That plan was being executed in an area which is tumultuous, dangerous. What isn't a plan is withdrawing and withdrawing American influence. We're seeing it all across the world as the United States' influence is diminished by the president's inaction and lack of a policy, whether it be Ukraine or the Middle East. The president has diminished the overall effectiveness of U.S. policy, which has resulted in increased conflict.

To look at this situation merely through the glass of what's happening today and not look at what should have been being done, both as the threat with ISIS was evolving and as, you know, the problems with the government in Iraq were being evident, is, you know, not really a full assessment of what we needed to do and what we should do now.

PEREIRA: Congressman Mike Turner, thank you so much for joining us @THISHOUR. We appreciate it. Hopefully, you'll join us again to speak about other topics --

TURNER: Thank you.

PEREIRA: -- in the future.

That's it @THISHOUR. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman.

"LEGAL VIEW" will start after a quick break.

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