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At This Hour

Louis Head Apologizes for Heated Words After Grand Jury Decision; Missouri Officials Say Head Probably Won't Be Charged; Charles Barkley Weighs In on Decision and Looters; Community Leaders Respond to Barkley

Aired December 03, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: New this morning. After more than a week, an apology for this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOUIS HEAD, STEPFATHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: Burn this bitch down! Burn this bitch down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Michael Brown's stepfather says he is sorry for those words as we get new word on whether officials will press charges for inciting a riot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: And this has just been an awful incident for everybody, and I just think that that just clouds the discussion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN CO-ANCHOR: And Charles weighs in, NBA great Charles Barkley talking about Ferguson. Why he says looters are, quote, "scumbags" and is siding with police.

BERMAN: And New York City on edge, any minute a grand jury could rule on a case that some people think is very similar to Ferguson.

Hello, everyone, I'm John Berman.

PEREIRA: And I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: We're going to begin with news developing over just the last couple of hours, an apology from Michael Brown's stepfather, Louis Head.

He is the man who is being investigated by many for what appeared to be a call for violence after last week's announcement that a grand jury would not indict the officer who shot and killed his stepson. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEAD: Burn this bitch down! Burn this bitch down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Some say this outburst sparked rioting in Ferguson; others say it was the gut-wrenching, emotional cries of a man whose stepson was killed. Local law enforcement officials say don't expect charges to come from this investigation.

We have all the angles covered. Our Don Lemon here. He has got the statement from Louis Head. Our justice correspondent Evan Perez has new information for us on the investigation. And of course Mel Robbins is here, putting us -- giving us some legal perspective on all of.

And, Don, I think we obviously should start with you. This statement came to you from a source very close to Louis Head. What is he saying?

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR, "CNN TONIGHT": Actually, after that, I spoke to him actually. I spoke to Louis Head this morning. And we got more clarification. He didn't want to talk long --

PEREIRA: I'll bet.

LEMON: Because -- yeah -- this is a tough time for him. He's not used to dealing with things like this. He just said, yes, those are my words in that statement. I didn't mean to cause any of this. I certainly didn't want to see my city burn.

So let's go to the statement now, and then I'll talk more about the conversation. So here's what he said. He said, "Something came over me as I watched and I listened to my wife, the mother of Michael Brown Jr., react to the gut-wrenching news that the cop who killed her son wouldn't be charged with a crime.

"My emotions admittedly got the best of me. This is my family. I was so angry and full of raw emotions as so many others were, and granted, I screamed out words that I should haven't screamed in the heat of the moment.

"It was wrong and I humbly apologize to all those who read my pain and anger as a true desire for what I want for our community. It wasn't."

And then he goes on to say, "The last thing I wanted to do is to see my community go up in flames."

But he also said, which I think is interesting, is that, "To place the blame solely on me for the conditions of our community and the country and the grand jury decision goes way too far and is wrong in itself as well."

So there's a bit of nuance here. It's not just I'm sorry, what I did was wrong, and I shouldn't have done it.

BERMAN: But he is saying he's sorry, which is something he did not say --

LEMON: Absolutely.

BERMAN: -- at all, this clearly, in the days that followed, and a lot of people are wondering why not.

LEMON: Why not? And he hadn't -- it appeared that he hadn't shown any remorse and through the mom, Michael Brown's mom, she said he spoke in anger.

Many people said, "Well, we haven't heard from him." He apologized to her, and he apologized to the people around, but we hadn't heard from him. And this is the apology.

And, again, what he said, no one can condone what he did or what he said. It's reprehensible.

PEREIRA: But we can understand the grief and how it affects us differently.

LEMON: You took the words out of my mouth. I don't know what it's like to lose a loved one in that manner. I certainly don't -- would hope that I wouldn't say what he said because -- but I'm a bit more savvy when it comes to media.

Even being in the media --

PEREIRA: I hope you would be.

LEMON: But we screw it up sometimes, even being in the media. And, again, I keep quoting our very own Jeffrey Toobin, and he has said it to me, and I'll keep repeating it.

He says these are ordinary people put in extraordinary circumstances.

PEREIRA: Sure.

BERMAN: They are. But there were other people who did not yell those things.

LEMON: The mother didn't yell them, and the mother and the father, Michael Brown Sr., have all along said no violence, no violence, no violence.

And this is -- you know, they're saying they can't control what he says. Now he's apologizing, so --

BERMAN: And Louis Head is owning it now. And the question is, what will happen to the legal investigation? He is responding now after word that police were investigating him possibly for inciting a riot.

Our Evan Perez has news this morning about the status of that investigation. Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: You know, the problem with bringing charges related to that video is simply that it's not clear that anyone who was within earshot of him went out and burned anything down and rioted, so that's the reason why I'm told by law enforcement officials that this is likely not to go anywhere.

Now, you know, you have to also wonder what's at play here. This issue has become a little politicized, and so you have the Ferguson police chief goes on Fox News and says that he's going to investigate this after the lieutenant governor down there, a Republican also, had brought this issue up.

So what you see is perhaps what's happening in Ferguson getting a little politicized, and you know, you had the police chief decided that he was going to make a mention of this as a way to respond to all of this.

And, you know, people down there have just had enough. They think that -- they'd like to quiet it down, they'd like to bring some peace rather than enflame things, and that's not what the chief there has done.

PEREIRA: And, Mel, we spoke about this yesterday, about the timing of this, of just how ill-timed, Mel, this could be.

But what about you? Are you surprised? You had sort of said I don't think this is going to be something that's going to stick to begin with.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, good morning, Michaela and everybody else. I'm not surprised. I think it's the right move.

And here's what I find interesting about this. I think Evan is absolutely right. This is more of a political conversation than a legal one. And under Section 574 of the Missouri criminal code, they could bring charges against him, and all they have to prove is that he made these statements with the intention that people do something, that they riot, that they burn things, and that that, in fact, happened.

And lots of people have pointed out that most of the buildings that went up in flames almost immediately happened a mile away, happened way out of earshot.

But there were police cars that had broken windows and that were ultimately lit on fire, so here's what I'm trying to make. The police could make a case, but one of the things we've talked about over and over in relation to Ferguson is prosecutorial discretion.

Prosecutors every day in America are faced with cases where they have to make a judgment call. Can I make a case out in criminal court? Can I prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? And this is an example of a case where, yes, they absolutely have a fact-scenario to charge.

However the prosecutors and the police are clearly using their discretion, and rightfully so, to say he's got a very believable reason. He was extremely distraught. None of us can understand what he's going through. And more importantly, do we really want as a matter of policy and politics to charge this man? And they've arrived at the right answer in my mind, which is no.

BERMAN: And, Evan, just to hit this point very hard. Your legal sources are telling you, law enforcement sources saying, that it is not likely. It is likely he will not be charged for inciting a riot.

Not only that, some of the people you're talking to, Evan, are kind of annoyed at this point that it was so publicly even discussed.

PEREZ: Right.

LEMON: And, Evan, isn't this coming from -- they believe this is coming from the chief, Chief Jackson and the Ferguson police department. The prosecutor doesn't know much about this, no one beyond that, except for the allegations made on another network?

PEREZ: That's right. This is really Tom Jackson, the police chief down there, who, frankly, there's been an effort to get him removed from there to help reform the police department. And so that's part of the issue.

They would really like to quiet things down. They'd like to -- certainly this prosecutor has no appetite to cause even more unrest in that city. So they'd like him to just quiet down and stop doing TV interviews and bring up these inflammatory things, you know?

PEREIRA: All right, Evan Perez, Don Lemon -- Mel, we'll ask you to stick around -- fellows, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. We'll continue to cover this story, obviously.

BERMAN: All right, ahead for us @THISHOUR, NBA legend Charles Barkley, he weighs in on Ferguson and race and Louis Head. He says the time to talk is right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARKLEY: We've always had a racial issue in this country, and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Former NBA star Charles Barkley has jumped into the center of the Ferguson debate. He calls the looters "scumbags." He defends the grand jury's decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting of Michael Brown.

BERMAN: Yeah, and true to form, Mr. Barkley does not mince words in his, really, fascinating interview with our very own Brooke Baldwin.

Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR, "NEWSROOM": Let's just begin with the news of the day, that Michael Brown's stepdad is being investigated for saying, eight different times, "Burn this B down," the night the grand jury decision was made public.

HEAD: Burn this bitch down! Burn this bitch down!

BALDWIN: He's being investigated for inciting a riot. Do you think that is fair? Should police be pursuing that?

BARKLEY: No, I think under the circumstances this is has just been an awful incident for everybody, and I just think that that just clouds the discussion.

BALDWIN: What about the walkouts and protests in? And you've definitely caught some flack for calling some people --

BARKLEY: You know what? I haven't got any flack. I don't do social media.

BALDWIN: I know you don't.

BARKLEY: And I don't sit around and watch what everybody thinks about me. I have --

BALDWIN: The scumbag comment, respond to that.

BARKLEY: When you're looting people's property, that's what you are. That's against the law. It's not your property. You wouldn't want people to do it to your house.

BALDWIN: Do you think that we would be seeing all of that had this been a black police officer? Had Darren Wilson been black and all the facts remaining the same, we would still have a slain 18-year-old. Would the outrage be there?

BARKLEY: No, because we have a racial issue in this country. We've always had a racial issue in this country, and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens.

We never have meaningful dialogue over a cold beer when things are going good. But what happens is everybody -- when something bad happens, everybody has a tribe mentality. Everybody wants to protect their own tribe, whether they're right or wrong.

BALDWIN: When what do you mean when they're right or wrong?

BARKLEY: We all got bad characters in our group. We all got bad characters. So my grandmother taught me you judge everybody on their own individual merit. You don't care what any other jackass has to say. You don't put everybody together.

Black is not always right, and white is not always wrong. But let me say this. The notion that white cops are out there just killing black people, that's ridiculous. That's just flat-out ridiculous. And I challenge any black person to try to make that point. This notion that cops -- cops are actually awesome. You know, they're the only thing in the ghetto from -- between this place being the Wild Wild West.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Brooke Baldwin is here with us now. And Brooke, you know, Charles Barkley clearly thinking a lot about this over the last week.

BALDWIN: Yeah, it's pretty interesting, you know, he -- I think like a lot of people, he initially heard the first -- I don't even want to say facts, first rumors about what had happened in Ferguson back in August, and he initially, as many of us did, jumped to this conclusion, oh my gosh, this kid running away from a police officer must have obviously been shot in the back. So horrible for this family.

And as the facts, he talks a lot about the noise. Take the noise away. And he agreed to talk to me and only CNN after the grand jury made their decision and he actually has taken the time, and he encourages a lot of other people to take the time to read the testimony -- there's a lot there -- and to come to your own conclusion, and just the sheer force of people, whether, you know, he initially in that radio interview called them scumbags, those who were breaking the law and looting and setting businesses and cars on fire is wrong.

But he said a lot of people, they were ready to riot whether the officer had been indicted or not. They had made up their minds, not based upon the facts, not based upon what had happened. He said the process, people were calling on due process and wanted this whole thing to be played out publicly in a trial, he said the process is done. People just don't want to accept the outcome.

PEREIRA: It's interesting because, you know, this is not the first time, nor will it be the last time. I mean, one of the reasons we love Sir Charles is he is Sir Charles and he sounds off. But I also know that he is reticent to necessarily be seen as somebody that we should idolize or look up to as a role model, et. cera. He struggled with that in the past.

BALDWIN: Remember the role model ad?

PEREIRA: I remember that. But you also asked him about the case that's going on that we're waiting on a verdict -- well, a decision from a grand jury, like it seems like we're rewinding the story here. You asked him about the Eric Garner case.

BALDWIN: Yes, because we were talking a lot about police force, and so I almost, in an aside, just very aware of what we're all waiting for with this grand jury -- let me just back up in case you're not as familiar. Eric Garner, this was back in July, he was accused of selling loose cigarettes, right? And that's illegal. And so you see, unlike in Ferguson where there's audio, you see videotape from someone standing by with his cell phone, multiple police officers jump on Eric Garner. You see the man on him, and this is the guy, we're waiting to see if he is indicted from this grand jury, ultimately Eric Garner dies. And the question is, you know, the medical examiner ruled it a homicide, you hear me push Charles about that. This is what Charles Barkley said about this upcoming decision in Staten Island.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me go back to the notion of white cops killing black people. What about the case we're waiting for, the results to come down the grand jury for Eric Garner here in New York? I mean, it's one thing in Ferguson there's some audio, but you see the video, you see these cops surround him.

BARKLEY: Yes, yes.

BALDWIN: And he ultimately -- it was a homicide. He dies.

BARKLEY: I don't think that was a homicide. I don't think that was a homicide, I think --

BALDWIN: What was that? It was a chokehold, you see it.

BARKLEY: Well, I think the cops were trying to arrest him and they got a little aggressive. I think excessive force, something like that. But to go right to murder -- when the cops are trying to arrest you, if you fight back things go wrong. That doesn't mean -- I don't think they were trying to kill Mr. Garner. You know? He was a bag man and they tried to get him down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So his whole point, don't resist arrest. He doesn't believe that that officer you see with his arm around Eric Garner's neck was actually thinking, I want to murder this man, and that's part of Charles's whole point.

BERMAN: So a grand jury is discussing right now, at this moment, in Staten Island. So stay tuned for that because that decision could come at any minute. Brooke Baldwin, thank you so much.

PEREIRA: Full interview today, right?

BALDWIN: Full interview.

BERMAN: You're going to hear much more, including parts that have not - and are so provocative that you saved them for your own show --

PEREIRA: Which we respect.

BERMAN: -- at 2 P.M., and we respect that. That's 2 P.M. right here on CNN. Do not miss it.

PEREIRA: Here's a question, do the comments from Charles Barkley ring true within the black community? We're going to debate it next @THISHOUR.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARKLEY: First of all, we as black people, we've got a lot of crooks. We can't just wait until something like this happens. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror. There's a reason they racially profile us at times. Sometimes it's wrong, but sometimes it's right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: That was NBA legend Charles Barkley, as if he needed introduction, speaking with our colleague Brooke Baldwin about the situation in Ferguson, Missouri and beyond. Making some comments that some are seeing as controversial about how police deal with potential criminal suspects.

BERMAN: And not just that, but also about how African-Americans discuss race.

PEREIRA: How we all discuss race, even.

BERMAN: Indeed. Joining us now to talk about this, Joe Hicks, Vice President of Community Advocates Inc. and Ashley Yates, the co-creator of Millennial Activists United.

And Ashley, I want to start with you here. Charles Barkley, he said a lot. He called the people who rioted in Ferguson scumbags, those were his words. He talked about police being necessary all over the country, and he talked about sometimes the attitudes within the African-American community about discussions of race. I'm wondering what you made of his comments?

ASHLEY YATES, FERGUSON YOUTH ORGANIZER: I think he said it all when he said that you cannot judge one group of people based on one person's actions or comments. Therefore, I would be -- I find it incredulous that people would try to gauge the black community by Charles Barkley's comments. He definitely does not speak from a community in which I exist. He definitely has not been to Ferguson. He has not reached out or spoken to protesters or organizers who are actively working to change our community and actively working to help heal after this trauma that we've experienced for last 117 days. I think you'd also be hard pressed to find anyone whose comments on this issue are less valid than Charles Barkley's.

PEREIRA: Less valid. You seem upset by his comments.

YATES: I wouldn't say upset. I just find it very curious that people are now wanting to comment on something that we have been experiencing for 117 days, and I find it very curious that people who want to comment on a social political climate that has occurred, to comment on why that actually happened. No one is commenting on the infringing of our civil liberties, no one's commenting on the fact that hundreds of people were rounded up and had their first amendment rights violated, as well as other rights. No one's commenting on the responsibility of the police for the tear gas that they've been enacting upon our communities. No one is commenting on their violations of not wearing their name tags and not wearing their badges and refusing to identify who is head of command and all people want to do is focus on burning buildings, and I find that just incredulous.

BERMAN: Joe, you heard what Ashley has to say, you heard what Charles Barkley has to say. I wonder if you want to weigh in.

JOE HICKS, VICE PRESIDENT, COMMUNITY ADVOCATES, INC.: Well, I think it's interesting that Ashley seemed to think that Charles Barkley has no right to comment on what is actually a national conversation that's spun out of the issues that took place in Ferguson. I'm right here in Los Angeles. We had people protesting and marching right here. People interrupting traffic on freeways right here. So Charles Barkley had every right to make a comment about what he sees as the different kind of issues are taking place spinning out of the killing of Michael Brown. I thought his comments -- you know, Charles Barkley's known to be a brutally honest guy. It might run counter to what Ashley and many people who have a racial orthodoxy would like to have him say and disagree with what he's saying. So it's a political disagreement here. She simply doesn't like what the man said because it doesn't, in fact, line up with what we hear. And when we hear - you know, Ashley saying well we've got to understand all these things. Well, there are differing opinions about what, in fact, causes those conditions in places like Ferguson and Los Angeles and New York.

PEREIRA: And, Ashley, you know, your very point brings up a very fair point is that even the four of us probably all have differing thoughts and differing opinions and different circumstances that led us to those opinions. What -- it is a national discussion because we all are watching what's happening in Ferguson. Ferguson is a mirror for many people of what's happening in their own communities.

YATES: Definitely so. And I'm glad that this conversation is happening now. And I think Charles Barkley is entirely right that we shouldn't wait until something tragic happens to have this conversation.

PEREIRA: Agreed.

YATES: But I definitely -- we definitely know that this is a nationwide problem, like you said. This isn't just Ferguson. People are watching Ferguson particularly close because of the reaction of the state on people who were trying to peacefully protest and say, we don't want to see any more black bloodshed in the streets at those who are supposed to protect and serve us. But as we speak right now, we're waiting on a decision in the Eric Garner case. We also just saw, not too long ago, the officers who killed a seven-year-old child with military weapons, Aiyana Jones in Detroit, were just recently relieved from any repercussions for their actions. We've seen Darrien Hunt's officers get a non-indictment. We're waiting on the case of Tamir Rice to see what that's going to turn into. So we know this is definitely not just about Michael Brown. We know this is not just about Ferguson. We know this is a national issue, and we know this is a conversation that needs to be had and that there are going to be differing opinions that are brought to the table. But I think as long as we do that in a respectful manner we'll be all okay.

PEREIRA: Agreed.

BERMAN: Hear, hear. I think we all agree on that.

PEREIRA: We are down with that.

BERMAN: And for that, Joe Hicks and Ashley Yates, I thank you both for being here, part of the respectful conversation.

PEREIRA: Yeah, and we can continue it again. We'd love that.

Ahead here, as Ashley was mentioning, Eric Garner died after an officer put him in a chokehold while trying to arrest him. We know that protests erupted and we also know a grand jury is deciding right now whether or not to indict that officer. What is going to come out of this? And is New York ready?

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