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At This Hour

Grand Jury Deciding Whether to Indict Officer; Alleged Victim Sues Bill Cosby; A Look Inside Kobani; Boy Hidden in Fake Wall Speaks Out

Aired December 03, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: So there is a national debate going on about excessive use of force. A new investigation by the "Wall Street Journal" finds it's almost impossible to determine just how many people are killed by police each year.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The report in the "Wall Street Journal" finds hundreds of police killings are not counted in certain federal statistics because local police agencies are not required to send the FBI these specific numbers. Police killings from 35 of the 105 largest police agencies contacted by the "Journal" did not appear in FBI records.

PEREIRA: So this controversial case we're watching this hour, a grand jury in Staten Island, New York, could decide any minute if an officer should be indicted in the July death of a black man. Officer Daniel Pantaleo suspected that Eric Garner was selling illegal cigarettes and put him in a choke hold as they were trying to arrest him. As you might know, that video went viral.

BERMAN: Eric Garner died. The medical examiner ruled it a homicide, which essentially means a man died because of something caused by another man. But you also noticed that Garner had health problems, including asthma and heart disease. This happened a few weeks before the incident in Ferguson and, like Ferguson, it sparked protests. The protests here have been peaceful. The question @THISHOUR is, what will the reaction be when the grand jury decision comes in this case? New York police say they're ready to keep the peace.

We want to bring in Mel Robbins to discuss this.

Mel, I'm wondering if you can explain based on the video that we've all seen now what exactly grand jury will be deciding. The New York Police Department has a rule against choke holds, but that doesn't necessarily mean choke holds in and of themselves are illegal.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR/LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it doesn't mean that they're illegal, John, in the sense that, you know, you could be charged with a crime. But here's what I think is an important legal issue to focus on. What the grand jury is going to be looking at is whether or not there was, quote, "reasonable or excessive force used." Because if there was excessive force used, then this officer could be guilty or could be charged with criminally negligent homicide because he's following a policy that is not reasonable because it's already been outlawed -- John?

PEREIRA: Talk to us about other things we know. He was 43 years old, a big guy, some 350 pounds. We also have learned he had some health problems. I believe there was asthma. There might have been a heart condition. Obviously, this is information that the jury, the grand jury, is given. How does all of that factor into them making their decision?

ROBBINS: Well, I don't think it should factor in. Because what we see on this video is we see him complaining that he can't breathe. We see him complaining he can't breathe multiple times and, frankly, that's why they've outlawed the choke hold.

But interestingly, what you're also going to see is the fact that the police are also going to focus on what they call the continuum of force. In this video, what you're looking at is you see the officers surrounding Eric Garner. He's a huge guy, obviously. They're talking to him and then suddenly this police officer comes behind him and gets in what we've been referring to as a choke hold. What some of the legal experts that are arguing on behalf of this officer may argue is that, look, as the situation was escalating, we've got a guy that's clearly resisting arrest, he's enormous, we've got to do something in order to subdue him. That's not a choke hold, what you saw, that's what we call a lateral vascular neck restraint where the elbow is pointed down and we're not putting any kind of pressure on the windpipe, we're only using this kind of restriction and this kind of pain compliance tool, as some of the language that they may be using, in order to subdue him. Clearly, we didn't intend to kill him.

And so this could come down to whether or not the grand jury sees what this officer did as an illegal choke hold, which makes it completely unreasonable, or if they see that it's some sort of pain compliance tool that is reasonable when you have somebody resisting arrest -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: Mel, we'll ask you to stay with us, we're getting our money's worth out of you today, girl.

(LAUGHTER)

ROBBINS: I love it.

PEREIRA: We love it, too.

Recently, there's been such a flood of allegations, but what is new now, Bill Cosby is now facing a lawsuit. He has an accuser who is alleging he sexually abused her when she was only 15 years old. The question is, is it time for him to speak out? We'll discuss it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEWEL ALLISON, SUING BILL COSBY FOR SEXUAL ASSAULT: I initially did come out and tell a lot of friends. The night it happened I told someone. I spoke about it but fear is what kept me silent. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, that was one of at least 18 women, 18 women, who have now come forward and accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault. But the latest accuser is different from them all. She has filed a lawsuit claiming the comedian molested her 40 years ago when she was 15 years old.

PEREIRA: So in this lawsuit, she says that Bill Cosby gave her and her young friend -- I think her friend was around the same age as she was -- a beer, and then assaulted the plaintiff at the Playboy mansion and told her to lie about her age if anyone asked. Cosby's lawyer has not responded to this case but you can be sure that they will. But they have repeatedly denied other allegations.

Let's bring back our analyst, Mel Robbins.

Mel, it's been interesting to see. We have watched as these allegations, we've spoken with many of the women here on CNN. They have been very serious allegations, the accusations, this is different. 15 years old. Does it take it to another level? The fact that they can file -- they are filing a lawsuit appears to me that it has taken another level.

ROBBINS: Absolutely. And she may be the only person based on the statute of limitations that can file a lawsuit. See, in the state of California, there's what they call the delayed discovery rule. Typically, if you have this kind of sexual battery or assault committed against you as a minor, you only have until your 26th birthday, Michaela, to come forward. But under the delayed discovery rule, that can be extended almost indefinitely.

BERMAN: Just to be clear, here, this is a lawsuit against Bill Cosby. But does he face any criminal jeopardy here because this woman has come forward, Mel?

ROBBINS: You know, the statute of limitations has already run in terms of California. They extended it well after this allegation took place. But this is certainly a civil claim that is a very, very strong one, just like we saw in the 2005 case where there were 13 Jane Does that were named as potential witnesses. I'm certain that you're going to see a long list of potential witnesses probably by name this time, not by Jane Doe, that will join in to testify in the lawsuit -- John?

PEREIRA: I want to give you a two-part question, Mel, because I want you to put your legal hat on and then maybe a bit more of your P.R. hat if you will, since you're here with us. What would you advise him legally to do going forward? And just from a P.R. angle, I'm curious how you think this has been handled by his people.

ROBBINS: Well, as his lawyer, I would tell him absolutely positively do not say a word right now to anyone about anything because in this particular case they've got a very strong first defense to try to get it thrown out based on it not meeting the requirements of the delayed discovery rule. And that would mean lawyers would be in hearings and Bill Cosby wouldn't even have to say a word about the merits of the case.

In terms of the P.R., two points here. I interviewed him about four years ago and he was uncontrollable during the interview. It lasted two and a half hours, it was supposed to last 30 minutes. And I think that his lawyers know that he's a loose cannon if they were to put him in front of a microphone and let him say anything. That's number one. Number two, he gains nothing by saying anything at this point. And now that there's been a lawsuit filed, they can do what we all know is likely to happen, there's a lawsuit pending, I can't comment -- Michaela?

BERMAN: So he's just got to sit and listen to this right now. And you think, from a legal perspective, his silence is really the only defense he has?

ROBBINS: Absolutely.

PEREIRA: All right, Mel Robbins, very interesting. We'll be talking about it more because this is not going away, it would seem.

BERMAN: Thanks so much, Mel.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, we are going to show you a look you have not seen before. On the ground inside the city that has been the center of the fight against ISIS, our reporter walks these streets and gives you a look. You'll be surprised.

COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: We have the extraordinary opportunity @THISHOUR to take you inside the Syrian city of Kobani where there has been intense fighting against ISIS militants. That city is in ruins. It's broken -- broken buildings, gutted structures that used to be people's homes, their workplaces, their schools.

BERMAN: This is an extraordinary look you have not seen before at the epicenter of the battle against ISIS.

Our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, walked the street. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We've been taken down this street towards the eastern front line. And behind those curtain there is put up to protect them from snipers. The two female YPG fighters escorting us down there. This is near the eastern front where there's been much more --

(GUNFIRE)

PATON WALSH: -- intense fighting in the past three or four days. While we get differing figures from whoever you speak to about quite how much of the city is controlled, and you see here quite remarkable devastation caused by the explosives used, what's quite clear is that ISIS is far from giving up on this fight. They've moved across the official border crossing three or four days ago. They were beaten back. But each night, particularly last night, we had very intense clashes further down this street towards the eastern front here. You can hear them.

You can see the absolute devastation here as we get closer towards ISIS positions here to the northeast of the city. Some of this caused by air strikes, but some, too, from daily constant, sometimes every five minutes, thump of mortars, some homemade by ISIS.

We can see Turkey literally just behind us. But they're edging through the wreckage, closer and closer to the places to try to push forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Our Nick Paton Walsh is now safely back in Turkey. We are very glad for that.

Nick, walking the streets there, you get a sense of what it's like for the people who have lived through this siege?

PATON WALSH: Unbelievably difficult. Of course, when you see there, every time you open your eyes in Kobani, there's devastation literally everywhere. There are people still living there. I don't know really to say how many. You get the feeling of a town not deserted but certainly with many less people than would normally be in it. And they are trying to get food, fuel to stay warm in the oncoming winter.

But the major problem is the bombardment by ISIS. They use homemade device, mortars, gas canisters filled with shrapnel. And the sheer vibrations you feel when a coalition air strike goes in. Many of them are aware, when it comes in, they know what's coming afterwards. The loud explosions that shake the walls and windows are most likely known by the Kurds there to be from a friendly force. But a nerve- shattering experience, too. When you go on the roofs of some of these buildings at night, the sheer volume of heavy machine gun fire that whizzes overhead has to land somewhere. It must be terrifying for those civilians still there who don't want to leave their homes. Children we spoke to show us how they hide from bombings. They scuttle under a room and hide under cushions. No protection there but a really sense of panic, frankly -- John?

PEREIRA: Nick, we're so glad you're back to safety. Thank you so much to you and your team for bringing the images to us and showing them to us. It's important for us to remember the humans that are at the center of this as well as you mentioned winter is coming, supplies are scarce. We don't know what kind of aid is getting to them at all.

Nick Paton Walsh, tremendous work. Thank you so much. Be safe.

Ahead @THISHOUR, he was missing for years. You heard about this story, this young boy that was found hidden behind a fake wall in his father's home. Now he's home with his mother and he's speaking out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PEREIRA: A 13-year-old boy hidden behind a fake wall in Georgia is speaking out. Gregory Jean's father and stepmother have been arrested and charged with false imprisonment, cruelty to children and obstruction. The judge has denied them bond. Police were able to rescue that boy after he managed to contact his mother and tell her where he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREGORY JEAN, RESCUED FROM FALSE WALL: It was harsh. It felt like it was not even punishment. I wouldn't call it punishment. I call that torture or something. I seen my mom and I started crying. And my mom's crying harder, something vibrated in me like, this is really tough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: That young man was reunited with his mother last weekend.

BERMAN: So conjoined twins, now there are ways to separate them. But a long time ago, there wasn't much anyone could do.

Mike Rowe went to a museum that knows all about the first conjoined twins and found out they share a whole lot more than just their looks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how the name Siamese twins are called that?

MIKE ROWE, CNN ANCHOR: I would. Is that Chang and Eng Bunker?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.

ROWE: I know those guys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chang and Eng Bunker, they were called the first Siamese twins and they were born in Siam. There have been records of conjoined twins now and we know there have been records of conjoined twins going on since recorded history. They toured with a lot of different sideshows and circuses. They were very popular. But they did eventually retire from this profession. They bought adjoining farms in North Carolina.

ROWE: Conjoining farms?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conjoining farms.

They married sisters and had 21 children between them.

ROWE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They spent a couple of days at one brother's house, a couple of days at the other brother's hour. Whoever's house they were at, they were the boss. That's whose wife they were with.

ROWE: Ah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chang liked alcoholic beverages. Eng was a teetotaler. But Eng liked to stay up late at night playing poker. That's why they had the situation to accommodate each other's needs.

They were born conjoined and died conjoined. But at the time of the autopsy, they found they had conjoined livers. Had they tried to get separated in life, it would not have been successful.

ROWE: Because?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They would have died. The liver is highly vascular. You can die just from blood loss. They would have died.

ROWE: And honestly, the sex, I just don't --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's where your imagination can take you because I'm not taking you there.

(LAUGHTER)

ROWE: You can't show me this and then say they had 21 kids and let's move on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I can.

ROWE: I'm not ready to move on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You realize you're in the fetal position right now.

ROWE: I am. I'm a ball of horror.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My work here is done. Peace out.

ROWE: You're so weird. Show me something else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: Will Mike Rowe recover? Find out on "Somebody's Gotta Do It," airs Wednesday at 9:00 eastern, on CNN.

That's it for us. Thanks for joining us. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.