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At This Hour

Pakistani Taliban Kills Schoolchildren; Manhunt in Pennsylvania for Mass Killer; Philly Police Commissioner Discusses Manhunt; John Crawford's Family to Sue Police, Walmart

Aired December 16, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Children killed for going school, a massacre in Pakistan, at least 137 people killed, even more wounded. New details behind the atrocity.

Manhunt in Pennsylvania, a Marine veteran goes on an alleged killing spree, then disappears. He is on the loose this morning. Communities on high alert, we have new information ahead.

And a 2016 bombshell, Jeb Bush takes a major step toward running for president. What this means and how this scrambles the race for the White House.

Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman. Michaela Pereira is on assignment today, and we do have breaking news at this hour, a bloodbath at a school in Pakistan. The Taliban gunned down children. They murdered teachers. They killed at least 137 people, so many of them children

The army-run school in Peshawar was a scene of sheer terror. Pakistani troops launched a huge operation to try and rescue hundreds of students trapped inside.

President Obama has been quick to condemn this attack. The White House issued a statement saying, quote, "By targeting students and teachers in this heinous attack, terrorists have once again shown their depravity."

Our Manisha Tank has the details of this attack. Manisha, thanks for being with us. What are we learning?

MANISHA TANK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, yes, we are getting latest numbers, 137 dead. We also have more than 180 injured.

And the really horrifying aspect of those numbers is that at one stage as we were beginning to get figures on the number of fatalities from this horrific attack, we also knew that between 300 and 400 students and teachers were still stuck inside in effectively what was a hostage situation that was later acted upon by the paramilitary services.

They ended up killing all six assailants. They now say the operation is over, but they are continuing with a sweep of the area. There were apparently devices planted that made it very difficult for them to actually get to students, for them to actually clear the area, so a really, really terrible and tragic scene that unfolded there, John. My big worry, and this is as we've seen these numbers tick up over the course of the day, is that we will hear of more fatalities. We have children right now in hospital in Peshawar who have just terrible injuries. There were accounts from at least one young boy, for example, who said the attackers came into the hall where he was studying. The kids -- they came in firing guns. The kids, they ducked underneath the benches and the attackers saw them and said, "They're under the benches. Kill them."

BERMAN: Kids. Remember we are talking about children here

As you were saying, the hospitals in the area are pleading for assistance, pleading for blood donations. The carnage so great they simply can't keep up with it.

Not that there could be any justification for an attack like this, but why is the Pakistani Taliban saying they did this?

TANL: Well, who are these people, and why did they do this in the first place? This is what is known colloquially as the Pakistani Taliban. They're called Tehrik-i-Taliban by Pakistan.

They've been very active in this area. In fact, perhaps too active. There's been a big military offensive by the Pakistani military against them.

The Pakistani Taliban say the act today, this atrocious act, was a response to that. It's retaliation for this military offensive that has been pushed on by the military over the last six months.

This was after peace talks with the Pakistanis between Pakistani Taliban and the government broke down and the military pushed ahead with this. So they're saying this was in somehow some way justified because it was a military -- it was a school that was frequented by the sons and daughters of military personnel. It was in an army compound. It's called the Army Public School.

But innocent civilians have been affected by this. Innocent children have been affected by this. I just want to point out it's a co- educational school, girls and boys. Most of those we're hearing so far are boys that have been killed and wounded.

I'm -- you know, it will be tragic if we see those numbers and fatalities tick up, John.

BERMAN: All we can do is hope. But killing children, nothing justifies that.

Manisha Tank, thank you so much for being with us.

We want to talk more now about the group behind this barbaric attack Manisha was talking about, the Pakistani Taliban. Joining me now is our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

And, Jim, you know, this group has a long history of actually targeting the United States and U.S. interests, so following this heinous act in Peshawar, how much of a direct threat is this group now seen against the United States?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, principally, the TTP, the Pakistani Taliban, its target is the Pakistani government. That's where their focus has been.

And, as you mentioned, this attack, retaliation for this massive offensive really that the Pakistani government has been under way in their stronghold up in the northwestern part of the country.

hat said, it's had a very direct effect on the U.S. interests. The 2010 failed Times Square bombing was inspired by this group. You've had a number of attacks on American forces in Afghanistan certainly, as well as an attack in 2009 that killed seven CIA agents there that was traced back to the Pakistani Taliban.

After the bin Laden raid, the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, you had the TTP, the Pakistani Taliban leader calling for retaliatory attacks against Americans, including overseas.

So they have -- while they're focused very much in Pakistan, they have expanded their ambitions somewhat to attack overseas, but, John, I have spoken to intelligence officials who say that, for instance, when that attack happened in 2010, the failed attack in Times Square, U.S. officials were frankly surprised that the TTP was behind it because it had been their impression that they were focused solely in Pakistan. That's generally been the case.

But with these groups, they know that when they expand the reach of terror that their profile rises and it's something to keep in mind. And this group has shown great capability.

And remember, the U.S. also has taken out two of its leaders in the past four years, Hakimullah Mehsud in 2013 and his predecessor Baitullah Mehsud in 2009 with drone strikes up there.

BERMAN: Jim, I want to take a step back if I can for a minute here, because this broke overnight as I was on TV here, and I actually thought of you because this was reminiscent of the attack on the school in Beslan nearly ten years ago where hundreds and hundreds of kids were killed.

You covered that atrocity, and it just makes you wonder how could a group, no matter what group, think there's some kind of strategic advantage to a massacre like this?

SCIUTTO: John, you and I have covered a lot of difficult, horrible stories and terror attacks. That one is perhaps the most difficult assignment I had because the victims were principally -- more than 300 of them children. I can still remember seeing the tiny body bags lined up outside that school.

You know, it's sickening. It shows the depravity of these groups and that there really are no limits to the kinds of attacks that they will carry out.

Now, when you look at that attack in Beslan, though, it's interesting. What was the effect of it? Did it go too far? These were Chechen terrorists, a different group behind the attack in Beslan.

What's interesting about that attack -- it always struck me -- was that a lot of anger after Beslan was not directed at the group, although certainly there was, but at the Russian government because people felt that the government, the security forces, had not protected them.

There were allegations, you know, never proven by any means or substantiated, that the government knew about the attack before, but there were also substantial allegations that a lot of the deaths took place when Russian security forces went in, that they were responsible for killing the kids, not just the terrorists.

So it's something to think about going forward with this attack in Pakistan. Certainly Pakistanis and certain the parents of those children will be very angry at the Pakistani Taliban, but they'll also be disappointed in their government that they weren't able to prevent this attack.

This is a real question for the government going forward. It will be a real challenge for them.

BERMAN: There will be questions. Today, though, a day to grieve for all those lost.

Jim Sciutto, thanks so much for being with me. I really appreciate it.

And, of course, you can see more of Jim's terrific reporting. He'll be on "THE SITUATION ROOM" today at about 5:00 p.m. Eastern time.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, have you seen this man? An alleged mass killer on the loose in Pennsylvania. The latest information on this manhunt, an active manhunt, just ahead.

And a surprising development in the Bill Cosby saga. His wife jumps to his defense, her new attacks on the media and questions from her about the women accusing her husband of sexual assault.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RISA VETRI FERMAN, MONTGOMERY COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: As we stand here right now, we do not know where he is. We are -- we do not vehicle information. We actually recovered his vehicle and his personal cell phone. So we do not have information about how he might be traveling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We do not know where he is. Happening right now, a manhunt in Pennsylvania for a suspect who allegedly murdered six people and then disappeared.

To be clear, he is on the loose this morning. Police say 35-year-old Bradley William Stone, an Iraq War veteran, went on a shooting spree yesterday in three different towns near Philadelphia. The youngest victim was his 14-year-old niece.

There will be a press conference from officials in just a few minutes to give us new information about this search. We will cover that when it happens.

Meanwhile, Miguel Marquez has been covering this story. He joins us by phone. Also with us is Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey. Commissioner, thanks for being with us.

First, I want to check in with Miguel to get the latest on this search. Miguel?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yeah. John, they've moved the entire operation, for the media at least, to the Montgomery County emergency operations center where we expect to hear from the district attorney here who is the point person on all of this.

It sounded initially like there might be a major development in this case, but now it sounds like there probably isn't. This is more of a routine briefing on how they are going to continue to search this area.

Some schools have been shut down today, others are on modified schedule. There is great concern across a wide swath of this area northwest of Philadelphia because this individual is still on the loose.

Police telling us they will be going house to house, looking through basements, trying to figure out if he is hiding somewhere or perhaps has committed suicide somewhere and they need to find his body.

All of that against the backdrop of what happened starting yesterday at 4:30 in the morning. Police got a hang-up 911 call and then this just gruesome horror story unfolds, three different scenes, six people dead. The ex-wife of Mr. Stone, of Bradley Stone, his ex-grandmother- in-law, ex-mother-in-law, ex-sister-in-law, her husband, and their 14- year-old girl. Their 17-year-old son was shot, is in hospital.

They believe that possibly there was a sighting last night with somebody trying to steal a car and he was dressed in fatigues as he was an Iraq War veteran.

John?

BERMAN: Miguel, the details here are just chilling. You laid out some of them right there. But it's interesting. He did spare, apparently, his own two young daughters.

The district attorney says he took the girls from his ex-wife's home after killing the ex-wife and left the children with a neighbor. It's just one of the issues that's got to be rattling that area right now.

How's the community reacting. How are they doing?

MARQUEZ (via telephone): Look, this is not the first time that Pennsylvania has been through this. They went through it for months with Eric Frein mot too far from where we are right now.

People are in shock. It's a little depressing and hard to believe it's happening again here. They are hoping this is less thought out as Eric Frein, and that this person will be brought into custody very, very soon, but certainly people are concerned and a little shocked that this would happen this close to the Frein incident just a few months ago.

John?

BERMAN: Miguel, thanks so much.

I want to bring in Commissioner Charles Ramsey right now. Commissioner, thanks so much for being with us. This is happening not far from you. How do you handle a situation like this? This is the second manhunt, high publicity manhunt, in that area in just a few months.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES RAMSEY, PHILADELPHIA POLICE: Well, listen, it's very, very difficult and the authorities in Montgomery County are doing a good job of trying to control the scene and deal with trying to find the person responsible for those horrible murders, and at the same time keep the public informed. You know, I was Police Chief in Washington, D.C. in 2002 during the D.C. sniper situation. This is a very, very tough position to be in. You want to pass along information that's helpful in finding the individual and kind of alleviate some fear, but at the same time you don't want to compromise the investigation. So they'll stay focused and keep at it until they eventually locate this guy.

BERMAN: Do you think they have learned anything from the Eric Frein manhunt, perhaps about how to go about this? Because as you say, it's hard to tell people to remain calm and go about their lives when there is a killer on the loose.

RAMSEY: Well I mean, you know, you learn something every time an incident occurs, whether it's in your jurisdiction or elsewhere. But those are different situations. Eric Frein, for the most part, was in a very, very rural area of Pennsylvania. A lot of the searching took place, and most of the searching took place in heavily wooded areas. This is a more urban setting trying to find this particular individual. So there are some differences, but I guess there are some similarities, as well. But you know, you have to do everything you possibly can to locate this person before he's able to hurt anyone else.

BERMAN: The people he's alleged to have killed are people that he knows. Family members. Does that change how you go about searching for him? Does that make you perhaps less worried that he would therefore go after people in the public at large?

RAMSEY: No, you really don't know exactly the lengths this person will go to in order to avoid capture, if he has not already taken his life. Often times when you have a situation where you have multiple murders, especially a domestic situation, a person winds up taking their own life. At this point in time, you don't know whether or not this person is alive, is dead, whether or not sightings of individuals that may resemble this person, if this is actually the person or not. So you're following a lot of different leads, but the bottom line is until you have him in custody or find a body, you have to assume the worst and that means he could hurt others beyond his own family.

BERMAN: Assume the worst. Commissioner Charles Ramsey, please stay with us because we have an important discussion we want to have with you just ahead. Thanks so much.

And just ahead, shocking video of a police interrogation. Did they go too far, questioning the girlfriend of a man killed by police? There are new questions this morning about race and justice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: New questions swirling this morning about an African-American man killed by police. This happened in Ohio. John Crawford was holding an air rifle that he picked up from a shelf inside a Wal-Mart when he was shot by a white police officer. A grand jury did not indict the officer who killed him. Now the Crawford family is announcing plans to file a federal lawsuit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL WRIGHT, CRAWFORD FAMILY ATTORNEY: He came in and shot Mr. Crawford on sight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about the timing of it now, three months after the grand jury but before the Department of Justice is done. Why now? Why file this today?

WRIGHT: Well, we're still hoping that the Department of Justice will get involved and indict the officers for shooting and killing Mr. Crawford.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, that lawsuit announced just moments ago. Our Ana Cabrera is covering this story. Ana, what's the latest?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, John. So this is a federal civil suit that is being filed against the police department, against the officers involved in the shooting, against their police chief, as well as Wal-Mart. And basically, their attorneys are saying that they believe John Crawford III was shot unjustifiably, that these officers responded to the scene and that in their minds this man was dangerous, in part, because he was African-American so they never gave him the benefit of the doubt and they didn't do their due diligence to really justify the shooting, to know what the circumstances were. This all happened on August 5, and we have surveillance video inside the Wal- Mart on that day where you see John Crawford talking on his phone, walking around, carrying what appears to be a rifle.

But we now know that that was not an actual rifle, it was a BB gun that looked like a rifle that he had picked up off one of the store shelves inside the store. Now, police say they responded to a 911 call in which the caller said that somebody was carrying a rifle and was apparently pointing it at customers in the store, so they say that was their mind-set going in and that they say they opened fire only after Crawford failed to comply with their commands to drop the weapon. But the family says he never even had a chance to comply with those commands and so they want accountability, that's why they have filed this lawsuit.

And it's also worth noting, John, that there is a federal investigation. The Justice Department is also looking into this case.

BERMAN: And Ana, this is not the only news surfacing this week because a video, a new video is out there, surprised a lot of people, that shows police interrogating Crawford's girlfriend for 90 minutes, just a short time after he was killed. They didn't even tell her that he was dead.

CABRERA: That's right. In fact, you look at the video and you mentioned 90 minutes and she doesn't even know that he's dead. They whisked her away from the scene shortly after the shooting and immediately started asking her questions about why John Crawford had the gun, why did he bring it into the store? I mean, you look at the video and this detective really just hammers this woman, Tasha Thomas, asking her over and over and over again as if she's lying to him and her response when she says, I didn't know he had a gun. I don't know he carries a weapon. He never brought it into the store. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DETECTIVE RODNEY CURD, BEAVERCREEK POLICE: That man had the weapon when you picked him up. He had it in your car or something. You understand that we're investigating a serious incident. You lie to me and you might be on your way to jail. So I'm going to be very clear --

TASHA THOMAS, GIRLFRIEND OF JOHN CRAWFORD: I swear to God, I swear to God on my kids, on my job and my family, on everything I love --

CURD: Where did he get this gun?

THOMAS: Sir, I don't know. I swear to God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Now, the detective in his report says he was asking her these questions over and over again and not believing her because at the time he did not know that Crawford had picked up the gun inside the store, nor did he know that it was actually a BB gun. However, the family attorney on Crawford's side says they believe this is evidence that the detective and that the police department was trying to coerce John Crawford's girlfriend into telling them a reason and to justify the killing. John?

BERMAN: All right, Ana Cabrera, thanks so much. Of course this does raise new questions about race and justice. Over the weekend, tens of thousands of people crowded the streets of cities all across the country calling for justice for Michael Brown, Tamir Race, Eric Garner, other African-American men and boys killed by police.

I want to bring back in Commissioner Charles Ramsey, the Commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department, former Washington, D.C. Police Chief, and perhaps most importantly now, one of the co-chairs of the Task Force just set up by President Obama to look into policing, 21st century policing as it's called, to build trust between police and the community out there. And commissioner, I know you're just getting started with this report, but can you give us any details about where you are right now?

RAMSEY: Well, the remaining members of the Task Force are just being selected by the administration. I have an idea of who that will be, I'm not at liberty to say, but we're ready to start working. I mean, we've already given an great deal of thought of some of the areas we need to look into. Establishing trust, in some cases rebuilding trust, if we had it to begin with and lost it. Training and education of police officers, use of force policies. A lot of the things that have been highlighted with recent events stemming from Michael Brown, Garner, this case now that you just talked about in Ohio, but there are numerous others, as well. Clearly, there's an issue that has to be addressed. Change needs to happen, has to happen, and we actually think this is an opportunity to really put forward some ideas and recommendations for implementation that will improve relationships greatly.

BERMAN: You know, it's interesting because it does appears that so much does need to change from the street level all the way up. You look at the case of John Crawford, also Tamir Rice, both in Ohio, and it was a split-second decision. In this case, both the now dead men and boy, in the case of Tamir Rice, they were carrying pellet guns or air guns or BB guns and the officers did not know it, it seems, and they shot and killed these men. How do you change or how do you train officers to approach these situations differently?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, reality-based training, but I think there's one important thing to keep in mind, these replica firearms look very, very real and you've only got split seconds to make a decision. Now I'm not defending one way or another, because I don't know enough about the facts in either of those cases, but these weapons look very, very real. And in fact, when you show it on television, unless you really know in hindsight that it's a pellet gun and what have you, in reality you would be hard-pressed to really tell the difference.

So I can't say that there's any training that will help you make that kind of distinction, but I do think that there's a lot of training that can take place, that officers can take advantage of to improve tactics to try to buy more time to find more out about what's going on before they resort to deadly force, and we'll be focusing an awful lot on that kind of training, judgment, decision making, use of cover, things of that nature, de-escalation techniques, in order to avoid resorting to deadly force, if we can avoid it.

BERMAN: Commissioner Charles Ramsey, we appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being with us, and we wish you the best of luck as you go forward with this report. It's important work and I think the country is all waiting to hear what you have to say, so thanks. RAMSEY: Thank you. Thank you.

BERMAN: After the death of Michael Brown and the grand jury's decision not to indict the police officer who shot him, some of the protests in Ferguson did become violent. Some of the protesters set fires to cars and businesses. You can help restore that community. To find out how you can help, visit CNN.com/impact.

Ahead for us, big news, Jeb Bush announces, yes, he announces he is getting in -- getting into exploring running for president. This is a huge political development. We will explain next.

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