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At This Hour

Passengers Safe after Ferry Fire in Adriatic Sea; A Look at Overall Flight Safety; Did China Help North Korea Hack Sony?

Aired December 29, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A hundred passengers are safe right now after a dramatic rescue from a ferry that caught fire in the Adriatic Sea. Seven people died in the disaster. Survivors tell a harrowing story of the chaos and panic that broke out when this fire started yesterday.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Imagine this. The heat, according to one passenger, caused the rubber on people's shoes to melt. On the upper decks, passengers apparently waited in rain and hail and gale force winds to be rescued. One passenger says it was like they were on the "Titanic."

Our Nima Elbagir joins us now from Italy.

Nima, good to have you with us.

She's joining us by phone.

We understand that adding insult to injury that some of the passengers brought on to rescue boats, that the rescue boats were having troubles getting to port. Tell us what's happening there.

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, it is just the weather. It is absolutely extraordinarily difficult. The "San Gorgio," which is the rescue boat, has emptied the passengers. It's having trouble making its try port. They're trying to figure out which port it can dock in at. Just to give you a little description, just in the one day we've been here we've seen hail, gale force winds. It's been cold, sunny, rainy. And to try and maneuver through all of that has been really, really difficult. We are now at a hotel where some of the evacuated passengers have been brought and we've seen some of the female passengers because they were airlifted out ahead of many of the male passengers and that seems to have added to the tension and the fear and panic on board. One woman said that she feels she owes her life to a female crew member. She told me, "I only wish I knew her name." Because when the men began to panic they would be left behind she said this woman waded in and said, "This is how it's going to be. Women with children first, then the remaining women then the men are leave last and the crew will be here even if it means we go down with the ship." So amongst these tales of panic and sheer hell, some extraordinary stories we're hearing. BERMAN: Nima, one of the things we're hearing about is, at first, 150

people were able to get off in lifeboat, but then apparently the boat lost power and more lifeboats wouldn't deploy? How can that happen?

ELBAGIR: Well, it sounds like even the larger vessels, the merchant ships that were coming in, they were having difficulty maintaining their mooring close to the ship. So a lot of it was about the conditions at sea themselves. To be able to maintain that kind of a distance from a ship while being tossed on these huge waves. At the same time, you can imagine you're a helicopter pilot, part of the Italian naval marines trying to maintain position, and sometimes they were able to stay there for long enough to pick up two or three, maximum four people. Sometimes they'd have to go away empty handed. Sometimes they would leave with one and you are down there on the ship with nowhere to go because you can't jump into these frigid waters. You're being tossed afternoon. Below deck, the descriptions we're hearing, it sounds like an inferno.

Italian authorities are trying to unpick these conflicting threads, what could have happened differently, why did the fire start in the first place. That investigation has already started. Giving the number of different nationalities involved in this, you can appreciate the pressure the Italian government is under -- John?

PEREIRA: Such a different outcome from other ferry disasters we've seen. Seven dead but the rest of the passengers made it off that ferry burning on the Adriatic Sea.

Nima Elbagir, thank you for the latest update. We appreciate it.

BERMAN: Happening right now, the aerial search for missing AirAsia flight 8501 has been called off for the night. Tomorrow, we are told, that authorities will expand the search zone. That will happen at first light tomorrow.

PEREIRA: 162 people aboard that flight have vanished from radar. About 40 minutes after takeoff from the Indonesian city of Surabaya en route to Singapore. The pilot had requested a higher altitude due to weather. That request was denied apparently because there was other aircraft in the area. Communication with that jetliner was lost shortly thereafter.

I want to turn to our aviation correspondent, Richard Quest, who joins us right now.

You have been very busy watching this and we're so grateful to you for joining us.

What's the one thing in this mystery disappearance of this airliner that stands out to you the most, Richard?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Until we know more details about why the plane fell off the radar, what has happened to the plane, until we know the details of what was taking place in the cockpit in that climb that may or may not have happened, the one thing I want to know at the moment is just how much technology there was involved to track this plane in real time. Yes, the Java Sea is large, but we should have a good and better indication of where that plane is so that the boats and the aircraft can find wreckage, and survivors if such there be as fast as possible. That's the issue at this hour.

PEREIRA: So many things for investigators to consider, Richard. We'll ask you to stay with us. I want to talk about overall airline safety. It seems as though this was a terribly tragic year for aviation. We'll look at it in terms of how it does compare to past years. That will happen ahead @THISHOUR.

BERMAN: Also for us, the United States keeps on pointing the finger at North Korea over the cyber attack on Sony, but now one U.S. Senator says it's not just North Korea that's to blame, China as well. Stay with us.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My fiance and his family was on that plane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're very devastated by what's happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: The grief beginning to set in for the families of the 162 people on board missing AirAsia flight 8501. The airbus disappeared off radar Sunday morning as it flew from Indonesia over the Java Sea to Singapore.

We want to bring back aviation correspondent, Richard Quest, who is with us once again.

We understand, Richard, that the authorities are going to expand the search area some 11 search zones will be incorporated Wednesday once daylight comes. How much more likely does it feel to you that they're going to find any evidence, debris, an oil slick, any evidence of this plane?

QUEST: They'll find evidence of it. I can hear the doubters saying "well, you said that about MH-370." But bearing in mind, I've covered an enormous number of crashes in my time and they always find something. Now 370 is the exception. If this were -- let me put it right on the table. If there were to be another 370 and there was nothing found and there was no trace, it would be extraordinary. It would be absolutely unthinkable. So will they -- will it take a day or two? Will it take a week or two? I'm not surprised that they haven't found anything yet. It does taken an element of time to get people there even though you know the coordinates, even though you know roughly where the plane may have come down. Now, that's still dozens of square miles that has to be carefully mowed, if you like, up and down in grid format.

BERMAN: Richard, I know you and our producers want to talk about the advances in air safety, but one area where there has been no advance is in this real-time satellite tracking, in this flow of information back and forth between the ground and aircrafts, nine months, 10 months after flight 370. We're in the same situation again. Yes, you're always right, Richard, so I know there will be some sign of this plane very soon but the fact that we're two days in and there's nothing, after what happened in 370, it doesn't have to be like this, does it?

QUEST: Not necessarily. Even if they'd nobody where the plane is, it's not like looking in a swimming pool but to the fundamental point you make, I was looking at the tracking task force that's been set up. This task force has reported, it's gone to council, they're going to think about it. The problem is airlines themselves have different needs and demands so the airline that only a little short haul airline going up and down on domestic flights in a country doesn't need the same tracking capability as say, for example, an oceanic jet it's getting that consensus. I'm not apologizing for industry because, frankly, I think they could have done more faster. But the fact that they can't find it within 36 hours doesn't surprise me. We're over water, they're searching.

PEREIRA: Richard, I think we're a flying world. So people have access now to airline flights. And I think when we hear that weather potentially played a factor in this, in an area that is rife with really intense thunderstorms it causes so many of us to fear, if we weren't nervous about flying, this will increase our anxiety. So talk to me about the safety of airline travel. Have we gotten better?

QUEST: Oh, absolutely. Let's look at the numbers, the number of incidents that have happened this year. Something like 111 crashes have taken place, not all of them fatal. On the incidents level, it's been, you know, a good year. Bearing in mind the size of the industry. Keep that in mind. You're not talking about one man with one plane. You're talking about a vast industry. In terms of the number of fatalities bearing in mind AirAsia it's not been so good. You're talking about the worst year since 2005, but the statistics are skewed because of three particular incidents, this AirAsia flight 8501, Malaysia 17 and Malaysia 370, which make up a large number of those fatalities.

And I'm going to put this in perspective. Let's say there's a thousand fatalities this year. Let's say a thousand fatalities. Now let me tell you that more than two, 2.5 billion people will fly during the course of the year, possibly up to three billion within a year or so. Take those statistics and start to see, yes, there's a risk but it is so small it is not even worth you and I contemplating it.

Now, this afternoon I'm speaking to you on board a ship at the moment. In a few hours, I will be in the air heading back to New York. Am I concerned on the safety question? No.

PEREIRA: Richard Guest always manages to put it in perspective for us.

We appreciate that. Safe travels to you, my friend.

BERMAN: Nevertheless, despite your complete lack of concern, safe travels.

Stick around, everyone. We want to answer questions you all may be having about this missing AirAsia flight.

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BERMAN: Investigators trying to piece together the flight of AirAsia flight 8501. Right now, it remains a mystery as to just what happened to that plane and the 162 people on board.

PEREIRA: As with Malaysia Airlines flight 370, it has some of you asking pretty smart questions. We'll post them to our safety analysts, David Soucie, Mary Schiavo, and or aviation analyst, Richard Guest.

We won't let you go too far, Richard.

David, we'll put the first question to you. Really interesting question. We've mulled it over here as well. Could the brand have landed safely on water like the U.S. Airways plane did on the Hudson River?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. If you look at the Hudson River and what occurred there, it was calm, the waters were calm. After the fact even if he was able to successfully ditch the aircraft, after the fact it's the waves and things that upset the aircraft and flood the aircraft.

BERMAN: If he had, if the flight landed on the water wouldn't something have put off a beacon at some point?

SOUCIE: Exactly. The procedure at that point is once you ditch the aircraft, you manually arm the emergency locator transmitter. So if you do that and if you put the rafts out which have similar type of transmitter they probably cast at a 400 megahertz area frequency and that's monitored by satellites 24/7. Within minutes you'd know where the aircraft was.

BERMAN: Mary Schiavo, we have a question for you. A lot of people asking this, "Why didn't the pilot make a mayday call?"

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: You know, what's so interesting is they didn't make a mayday call to air traffic control but when I work investigations, what's amazing is when we get the recordings from the cockpit and the pilots are so busy and in all the crashes I've worked they're almost so calm and in so many of them they did not get off a mayday call. In a couple of them, Air France 447, they weren't really aware of how dire a situation they were in. Others it is a battle. You hear the pilots fighting and straining and trying to save the plane. It's an unbelievable series of sounds but they're busy and fighting and that is what I'm guessing in this case is why there was no mayday. They were working to save the lives.

PEREIRA: My goodness, Mary, you've heard tough stuff.

All right, let's put a question to Richard. A viewer writes in because we've been talking about the weather in these areas, these intense thunderstorms. Could lightning have brought this plane down? Richard?

QUEST: Very unlikely. Very unlikely. And the aircraft is designed with lightning receivers on board, conductors on board. I've been on a plane that's been hit by lightning a couple of times. What happens is you sometimes feel a jolt, maybe a small smell on the aircraft but the lightning travels through the plane and out the back of it. Yes it could short out electrics if they weren't properly wired or if there was something wrong but aircraft being hit by lightning is an everyday occurrence and it happens completely safely.

BERMAN: It does. It's very disconcerting.

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BERMAN: Richard, I want to ask you a question about the news today. This radar image that people are talking about, which shows that perhaps the flight, as it was ascending to 36,000 feet, that it was going too slow. The necessity of doing it at a robust speed.

QUEST: Yeah. Basically, when you're doing a high-altitude climb, your margin for error on the strip or tape going into the red zone becomes a lot tighter than it does elsewhere because you've got less air pressure, the aircraft is flying much faster to start with. Everything about the aerodynamics becomes more sensitive. And that's why pilots, when they do make this climb, often it's done with auto throttle, often done with the autopilot. But when they make these high-altitude climbs and they are maneuvering the dramatic maneuvering of the aircraft at altitude, then they have to be much more careful. Now, what seems to be here, we don't know why. First off all, we didn't know if this was an accurate and true diagram or pick picture. But if it is true, why did the speed bleed off so dangerously? Was it because the pilots, the way they were flying and they didn't notice it, or was there an updraft or downdraft which literally took away the lift from the air? Because they were now in such a violent storm.

PEREIRA: So many questions to be answered.

Richard Quest, our thanks.

Mary Schiavo and David Soucie, we appreciate your expertise.

Another story we're watching, the U.S. blames North Korea, but is another county possibly behind that cyber attack on Sony entertainment?

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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You can't talk about North Korea without talking about China. You need to have a heart-to-heart with the Chinese. I can't imagine anything this massive happening in North Korea without China being involved.

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BERMAN: There you have it. Senator Lindsey Graham flat-out accusing China of being part of the cyber attack on Sony. The U.S. blames North Korea saying that this stems from Sony's plans to release "The Interview" in theaters.

PEREIRA: But whoever is responsible for the hack, one thing for sure is the movie has earned more than $115 million through online sales in the first four days of the release. Sony says it was rented or purchased more than two million times.

Joining us to discuss this is former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, a familiar face on our program.

Good to have you. Hope you had a wonderful holiday season, sir.

What do you make of the idea that China could be behind the Sony hack?

BILL RICHARDSON, FORMER NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR: Well, I disagree with that assessment. China does have a lot of leverage over North Korea. They give them food, financial assistance, fuel. But North Korea's very independent. They've told China to stay out of pressuring them on nuclear negotiations with the U.S. I think China could be helpful here because a lot of the telecommunications infrastructure of North Korea goes through China. There are a lot of North Korean hackers stationed in China. But I don't -- I don't think North Korea needs China to make the decision they made perhaps on this hacking. So China could be helpful but I don't see the plot of China being behind this.

BERMAN: Ambassador, you've been to North Korea. You've spoken to North Korean officials. Perhaps you can lend some insight into their thinking. Over the weekend they blamed the United States of being behind Internet outages in North Korea. And in the process, they called President Obama a monkey. A monkey in a jungle. A flat-out racist comment about President Obama. This is North Korea, a country so upset about a film that perhaps they attacked an entire company and shut down the Internet company, and yet they are willing to make a racist comment about another leader.

RICHARDSON: This is consistent with their unpredictability, rationality. Nothing seems to have changed between the father and now Kim Jong-Un in terms of their tactics of using profanity and racism. They have made these comments about the president and others before. These kinds of racist comments. So they are in a coon. Their whole existence is based on a cult personality. So anything insult like "The Interview" to the personality is almost like a military attack on them. So when you're talking about North Korea, I've dealt with them for years. They don't think like years. They think in a different phase and what has happened there is fairly consistent with their unpredictability, their irrationality, with their reproach to solving problems. They just don't seem to abide by international norms of standard and good behavior.

PEREIRA: So given all of that, sir, what is the best course of action in terms of response? We know the president has vowed to respond. Is sanctions, increased sanctions, increased pressure on that nation, is that the best course?

RICHARDSON: Well, I believe the president has been measured in his response. I don't know if we're responsible@ for the Internet problem in North Korea. It's possible. But I don't know I saw the Internet system in North Korea. It's very weak. It's almost nonexistent. Maybe 3 percent of the government can use it. But I think the response is good. I think stay, find a way to have what are proportional sanctions. I would say putting them on the terrorism is one option. Another is banking sanctions that attack and deal with the North Korean leadership, trying to move money around. That is another option that we used before that was taken off. But I think, right now, a steady course is, don't give them much attention. Don't give them the kind of attention that they want to get by a very response.

BERMAN: Governor Richardson, we have about 30 seconds left. Will you see the film, "The Interview"?

RICHARDSON: I will see it. I will see it. It was shown here in Santa Fe at George Martin. You know the guy from game of thrones had it and I tried to get it but there was such a demand, I couldn't get in. So, yeah, I will see it.

BERMAN: All right. Hopefully, your computers stay safe after making that announcement.

PEREIRA: And we look forward to hearing your review of the film, as well.

Thank you so much for joining us.

BERMAN: All right. That is all for us today.

"LEGAL VIEW" today with a special guest star, Jake Tapper, begins right after this.

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