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At This Hour

Search Area Narrows in Java Sea; Thirty Bodies Recovered So Far; Was Water Landing Possible?; Remembering Mario Cuomo; Rubio Says He May Still Run

Aired January 02, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN CO-ANCHOR: And I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: We have major new developments in the search for the victims and wreckage from AirAsia Flight 8501. Search crews are focusing on an area of roughly 2,000 square miles. That's roughly the size of Delaware. A top Indonesian official says it's the most probable area in the Java Sea where the plane's fuselage might be.

Now, they have recovered more of the plane's wreckage, including what appears to be a window panel. This photo was posted online by the defense minister of Singapore.

PEREIRA: And of the 162 people on that plane, officials say 30 bodies have now been pulled from the sea, four of them have been identified so far. One victim has already been laid to rest.

In terms of the search, bad weather is proving once again seeming to be the biggest obstacle in the search.

I want to turn to Andrew Stevens in Surabaya, Indonesia, where the flight originated and where many, many of those families were from and where they are gathered awaiting news.

Andrew, can you update us? I know it's obviously nightfall there, but what is the latest on the search-and-rescue effort where it stands now.

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, on the search, Michaela, there is still bad weather across the search zone and that bad weather is expected to continue over the next couple days, so the frustrations are enormous.

But, as you point out, they've narrowed the probable location zone, they call it, down that 2,000 square miles. That's still a fair chunk of territory, but they're now moving into an underwater-search stage, basically because the weather is so bad that visibility is minimal, and they're not just getting anywhere with their visibility aerial checks. So they've got ships on station there. They've got sophisticated listening devices. They've got sonar there. More are coming. And the plan is really is to now grid that area, looking for this fuselage. This is the key to the whole mystery, if you like.

There's a large piece of fuselage, they think, with still many bodies inside, which also, they hope, contains the black boxes, the voice recorder, the data recorder. That's what they're looking for and, of course, still looking for bodies.

BERMAN: Along those lines, Andrew, what's the latest in the victim identification process?

STEVENS: Well, four have been identified now, John. Thirty bodies have been recovered, including 12 from the USS Sampson which was on sight today.

The bodies have -- most of the bodies have been brought back here. In fact, we've just come from outside the naval base at the international airport, very sad procession we saw there, too, ten ambulances leaving that naval base, coming down here to the police hospital for identification.

But at this stage, there has only been four of the 30 bodies recovered and identified. That identification process will continue over the next few days around the clock as well.

It's a painstaking process. They have to get it right. We don't know when the next i.d.s will be done, but it will be an ongoing process, obviously, over the next few days.

BERMAN: All right, Andrew Stevens for us in Surabaya, thanks so much.

I want to bring in our aviation analyst here. Les Abend is with us. He's a commercial pilot.

We also have our safety analyst and former FAA safety inspector David Soucie. He's written a new book "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, Why It Disappeared and Why It's Only a Matter of Time Before This Happens Again."

PEREIRA: David, we want to talk about this report we're getting from the local media in the region -- and it's very grim, obviously -- that there were three bodies located -- found floating with their seat belts on in a row. We have not been able to independently confirm that here at CNN.

If this turns out to be true, what does that tell you about what happened as the plane crashed.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: It's really not definitive because of the fact that whether it broke up in the air or whether it broke up on the CNN, which is what we're trying to determine at this point, it's would be the same. They would still be in the seats; they would still have seatbelts on. There's some other evidence that we won't talk about that's a little too gruesome here on television, but hopefully it will tell them one thing, which is the -- if it hit the water and broke up in a forward rate of speed, you'd be able to tell that by the damages that the seat belt does to the body.

If it was downed at a straight angle like this, which would indicate a flat spin or stall, deep stall, like Flight 447 that there are different types of injuries that you would see on those bodies, mostly internal type things as well.

So there's some information that can be gained by the investigators on scene. It's nothing we'll get information about out here. That's what they'd be able to fell from.

BERMAN: It so, Les among these same reports that people were found strapped in their seats, there are also reports saying they're seeing images of the tail underwater.

We haven't been able to confirm this, but if the tail separated from the rest of the fuselage, is that something you would normally see or sometimes see in situations like this and why would that happen? What does that indicate?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it indicates like Dave has been saying, did it break up in flight or impact? That will define how it impacted and the fact that it may have been -- is it inverted? Right side up? That answers questions in the kind of water and the depths they're talking about.

PEREIRA: These kind of searches are so painstaking and then you add the challenges of where they're searching. The weather has been impeding efforts, obviously.

But we know that now there's 30 bodies that have been recovered, David. It sort of feels as though that was a big jump in terms of recovery over the last few days, even progress is being made.

That's what it feels like from our end. Does that seem appropriate to you?

SOUCIE: It absolutely does because now we've got clues. Once the bodies are identified, it's going to be an enormous jump in the investigation because of the fact that they can place those bodies within a virtual model of the aircraft.

BERMAN: A seating chart.

SOUCIE: Exactly. And so then they'll know when the bodies came from. That will give them a lot of clues for the underwater search, because if they all came from the same area then you could say that's kind of where it broke up.

They may be able, as I mentioned before, from the bodies be able to determine if they broke up in the air. If they did, the search will grow significantly because, like with MH-370, it was about six or seven miles across.

BERMAN: That hadn't occurred to me. You can actually put together a seating chart, and once you put together a seating chart, you can backtrack and see perhaps where the different parts of the plane ended up.

Back to the tail for a second, aren't -- in A-320 aren't the black boxes in the tail?

ABEND: I think there is one of them that's in the tail and one is a little bit further forward, so that would be good news if indeed they found the tail. Now they can begin the process of recovering data from the cockpit voice recorder and the digital flight-data recorder.

BERMAN: Because that's what, in terms of the investigation, these are the holy grails in terms of the search. They want to get their hands on those. They'll find out all the information they want.

And, of course, as of now, we don't have any sense that they're actually hearing any pings.

SOUCIE: No indication of that at all at this point, no.

ABEND: It was indicated by David Gallo that there's a lot of shipping traffic so a lot of noise for those devices.

PEREIRA: And towed ping locators, as we mentioned for those of you that are sort of new to this, we've learned a lot, certainly with MH- 370. You've both taught us a lot.

So they have the side-scan sonars. They also have these towed ping locators, and it's important to talk about the acoustics of the ocean. It may not be very deep, only 100 feet. Comparatively to some other portions of the ocean, this is fairly shallow.

But there's still acoustic noise there that could be affecting search efforts.

SOUCIE: And the reason it was so sensitive to acoustic noise during the 370 search is because of the fact that we were kind of using it for what it's not to be designed for.

It's not really designed to locate the aircraft. It's designed to locate the box within the aircraft after it's under the water. So it's more of a proximate using the hydro phones to find it locally because it can be under silt, it can be under the aircraft. It's really difficult to find. It's not like it's sitting there on a shelf somewhere.

So that's the part that underwater locator beacon, if it's functioning normally, is used for proximate location, not for generalized search, necessarily.

BERMAN: Les, there's one other area. We talked about this morning. There were reports that there was a two-minute gap between when the captain or the copilot -- we don't know who asked -- but asked to increase their altitude, to fly up from 32,000 feet to 34,000 or 36,000 feet, maybe even higher.

There was a two-minute gap between when they asked permission and when air traffic control ultimately responded. Most of us aren't pilots, so we don't know. Is two minutes a long time to wait for an answer?

ABEND: It really isn't. When you make a request, you understand, depending upon what sector you're in -- in the United States, these controllers are busy with other airplanes going opposite directions, crossing your route perhaps. So they're -- and they're talking to other controllers in other sectors.

So two minutes isn't an incredibly long time for that kind of request. I don't know what the circumstance is. Apparently that corridor is like a red eye across the United States is for us. So I wouldn't find that very unusual at all.

PEREIRA: Les, David, we'll ask you to stick around, because ahead, we know there's several theories about how the flight ended up in the water or hit the water.

One Indonesian official believes the pilot could have perhaps landed on the surface kind of like Sully Sullenberger-style on the Hudson. We're going to examine that possibility ahead @THISHOUR.

BERMAN: And then, what a life. We're going to take a look at the life and legacy of former New York governor Mario Cuomo who passed away at 82.

PEREIRA: And we're going to give you a story of race and redemption. See this beautiful woman? Well, almost 60 years after being cut from the Rose Parade because she's African-American, Joan Williams led the annual parade.

We're going to talk to her about this significance of this, especially now when we're having this discussion about race in America.

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PEREIRA: As crews find more bodies and hone in on what could be the AirAsia plane's resting place, there's an interesting theory, conjecture, perhaps, about the jet and how it could have ended up on the sea floor.

Now CNN has not been able to confirm this report. There's obviously not going to be any definitive answers until the flight data recorders or the black boxes are found.

However, a former transport minister in Indonesia, he seems to believe the pilot made a successful water landing.

BERMAN: Yeah, think of what happened here in New York with the so- called "Miracle on the Hudson" almost six years ago.

This official goes on to theorize that maybe once this flight, 8501, somehow managed to get down in the Java Sea, a huge wave or waves hit it before the people on board could get out, and that's what ultimately sank it.

I want to bring back Les and David to weigh in on this. This minister, one of the theories -- one of the reasons he has come up with this theory is because the pinger or one of the alarms didn't go off that's designed to go off on impact if you crash into the sea and they didn't get any indication of that so he is saying that might lend itself to the idea that there was a soft or controlled landing.

SOUCIE: I think he's referring to the emergency locator transmitter, which is a deceleration indicator. So if the ELT decelerates quickly, which would be if the aircraft went in at a steep angle, that it would then send out a signal to the satellite system that monitors it that says, hey, you've had this deep impact.

So he's then surmising that therefore the aircraft must have made a soft landing and didn't have a rapid deceleration.

The problem with these emergency locator transmitters, they're made for land. They're really made for when the aircraft crashes on land. The antenna is external to the aircraft. As soon as that external antenna touches water, it can't transmit. It's done. It grounds it out.

So that signal is going into the water not into the air, and the satellites can't pick it up. So it's really not a great indicator.

Another reason I don't believe that this theory is true is the fact that we have seats and we have seat belts that are separated from the aircraft. Had it been a successful ditching, the bodies and then subsequently flooded or sunk.

ABEND: And some of those ELTs are inside the life rafts in case there's a ditching situation that you can - they're deportable, you can deploy them, but when they're immersed in water, just like David described for the aircraft one, they're immersed in water, they won't transmit.

PEREIRA: Apparently Captain Sullenberger spoke to CNN about the kind of training that pilots get for emergency landing. So let's play that sound.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SULLY SULLENGERGER, FORMER USAIRWAYS CAPTAIN: In the United States and our flight simulators, it's not possible to practice a water landing. Before our water landing, the only training we'd ever gotten for a water landing was a theoretical classroom discussion. Of course, there was a checklist, there was a protocol, but we'd never done it. So again, we had one chance to get right something we'd never anticipated, never specifically trained for and being in the open ocean would be a much more challenging situation. But over water in general, its featureless terrain where depth perception is inherently difficult, you're descending without engine thrust much steeper and much more rapidly than for a normal approach to a landing on a runway where you have thrust to make it a more gradual approach. It would be a very challenging thing to do. But it's possible. It's theoretically possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Theoretically possible. Let's remember, it is called the miracle on the Hudson. I mean, what he did was essentially miraculous, but is this even reasonable for them? And I almost wonder about the damage of even putting out a theory like this.

SOUCIE: I had even been talking about that theory during that same interview with Sully that I felt that it was, as well, because the fact that the only thing we knew we had at the time was the emergency exit door and the slide which is associated with that door, and then we had three bodies. None of that points towards anything other than a successful ditching, really, but now as evidence comes in, which is typical of any investigation, the riddles start to unfold and you start to get these answers. And now, to me, it's far less likely than I had thought it was.

BERMAN: And Les, you know, you saw the pictures there of the miracle on the Hudson. The water on the Hudson River was pretty flat, pretty calm. A lot different than it theoretically would be in the Java Sea. What kind of things do you train for as a pilot? Or how much do you train for these types of situations?

ABEND: Well like Captain Sullenberger said, I mean, it's such an unlikely event. We read about it, we have classroom discussion about it. Part of the classroom discussion would involve landing parallel to the waves, and you have to time it. It really takes a lot of talent, you know, to make it work out successfully. Now, there's been a lot -- there has been successful ditchings over airplanes, but you know, it's certainly a plausible scenario, but doesn't seem a likely scenario.

BERMAN: Have you done flight simulations? Have you ever tried it?

ABEND: No, we have not. We do not -- We don't practice those types of simulations. It's just not a practical thing, because you get to that point, you know how to land an airplane so this is a matter of landing it in an unusual surface area.

PEREIRA: David, you and I were talking off camera one day and I was sort of needing some comfort from you, given the title of your book and the fact that we all fly, and I was talking to you because there's been some notions, did this plane just fall out of the sky? And they don't just drop, they don't just fall. The way they are designed is -- what was the statistic you were saying? That the rate a plane would come down?

SOUCIE: There's a -- as Les can tell us, there's a lot of different kinds of stall. And with this situation we're talking about a wing -- over-the-wing air stall, almost like what you saw in "Top Gun" with the flat spin. You know, that's the kind of thing as a reference that it might be. Wouldn't it be --

ABEND: Well, you got to remember the airplane, you know, a commercial jet, almost like the "Top Gun" scenario, it's a swept wing airplane so it has different characteristics than, say, your average Piper Cub or your Cessna. And that has its own challenges and difficulties in recovery process.

SOUCIE: But in the certification of the airplanes we talk about the egress and that the pilots may not be trained for ditching. However, in the certification of the aircraft when I was in Toulouse about the Airbus 380, the egress of the aircraft is well-tested, they do it in the water, they take that huge aircraft, put in the water, they literally put people in the airplane, try the slides, test the slides, and it took two or three tries before they could get everybody out in the limited amount of time that you had so the egress of -- that part of that is very well-tested. The aircraft wings are very well-tested. It's really good. Really good system and good airplane.

PEREIRA: A little more comforting. Thanks to both of you. David, we're going to ask you to stick around. Obviously, we have some more things that we want to look @THISHOUR.

BERMAN: Ahead for us, we're going to talk more about the black boxes. How they work and what information they will offer when they are found in this investigation.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PETER KING, (R) NEW YORK: Mario Cuomo was a giant. He really personified the American mosaic, certainly the New York mosaic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That was Congressman Peter King, a Republican, paying tribute to liberal icon Mario Cuomo who passed away yesterday at the age of 82.

PEREIRA: A three-term governor, Cuomo was indeed a giant of New York politics, but he never ever forgot his humble roots. In a statement, President Obama said Cuomo's, quote, "own story taught him that as Americans, we are bound together as one people, and our country's success rests on the success of all of us, not just a fortunate few."

BERMAN: Mario Cuomo liked to say, "You campaign in poetry, you govern in prose." He did both.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voiceover): Simply it was the American dream. The son of Italian immigrants, Mario Cuomo, rose from the basement of this grocery store in South Jamaica Queens where he slept on the floor and spoke no English to the highest office in New York State. Along the way, creating a political legacy and dynasty that spanned generations. His life driven by a passion for learning, his Catholic faith, and a determination to simply work harder than the other guy.

MARIO CUOMO, THREE-TERM GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: One of the simple things I wanted to achieve is I want to be governor, I want to be the hardest working there ever was.

BERMAN: After more than a decade of the full-contact politics of New York, Cuomo catapulted to national prominence with the keynote address at the 1984 Democratic National Convention.

CUOMO: Let me thank you for the great privilege of being able to address this convention.

BERMAN: He challenged head-on Ronald Reagan's notion of a shining city on a hill, instead calling America a tale of two cities.

CUOMO: We must get the American public to look past the glitter, beyond the showmanship to the reality, the hard substance of things, and we'll do it not so much with speeches that sound good, as with speeches that are good and sound.

BERMAN: It cemented him as one of his generation's greatest orators. A defender of the have-nots and the little guys. It also made him the choice of many Democratic leaders to run for president.

CUOMO: He said will you think about it? I said I have been thinking about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But are you going to think about it anymore?

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: He was considered a favorite for the Democratic nomination in both 1988 and 1992, but in both cases he demurred. His seeming inability to decide on higher office frustrated Democratic party faithful and became something of a punch line in itself.

JAY LENO, LATE NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST: And Mario Cuomo, and no one knows what he's going to do. I don't know if you've seen his new public service commercial for New York City, it says, "A mind is a terrible thing to make up."

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: He said it wasn't indecisiveness that kept him in New York instead of Washington, it was his commitment to the state.

CUOMO: It has nothing to do with my chances. It has everything to do with my job as governor and I don't see that I can do both, therefore I will not pursue the presidency.

BERMAN: He said it was that same commitment that led them to pass on a nomination to the Supreme Court, deciding instead to run for a fourth term as governor. But 12 years was enough for New York. He was defeated by George Pataki in the Republican revolution of 1994. Cuomo returned to the private sector to restart his law practice, host a radio show, and become a prolific author and public speaker. And in 2010, came a brand new title, former or first Governor Cuomo, a word he would be forced to use because he was suddenly no longer the only one. In a bittersweet irony, his eldest son, Andrew, the current governor of New York, was sworn in to a second term just hours before his father's death.

ANDREW CUOMO, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: He couldn't be here physically today, my father, but my father is in this room. He's in the heart and mind of every person who is here. He's here and he's here. And his inspiration and his legacy and his experience is what has brought this state to this point. So let's give him a round of applause

(APPLAUSE)

BERMAN: Governor Mario Cuomo, a true American giant, was 82. He is survived by his wife of more than 60 years, Matilda Cuomo, his five children, including our CNN "NEW DAY" anchor, Chris, and 14 grandchildren. The constants of his life, "Always faith and family."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: You saw a much younger Chris Cuomo in that family image right there. And obviously, you know, our condolences go out to the entire family and our friend who loved his pop.

PEREIRA: I love, though, that he called his dad his, "Pop." I had a chance to spend time with his dad and his mom and Chris a few months ago and it was really amazing how even at this advanced age and in struggling health, he was still that orator. He and Chris talked about a number of world issues. They talked baseball, they talked football. And he still just loved conversation and thought and words. It was really, really tremendous.

BERMAN: And the one thing I do want to say is, you know that Mario Cuomo was proud of his son. Chris, also.

PEREIRA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

BERMAN: All right. Let's move on and check some other news now.

PEREIRA: Here's a look at our other headlines. Outgoing Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid spending the new year in the hospital. His office says that he broke a number of ribs and bones in his face. Apparently he was exercising at his home with a resistance band, it snapped and caused him to fall. Doctors do expect him to make a full recovery, though, and he'll be back in D.C. next week when the Senate reconvenes.

BERMAN: I think as a former boxer, he'll bounce back.

Former -- I mean Florida Senator Marco Rubio says he could decide to run for president even if former Florida Governor Jeb Bush is in the race. The two men were closely together when Bush was the governor of Florida and Rubio was a rising star in state politics.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FLORIDA: If I decide to run for president, then that's what I'm going to do irrespective of who else might be running.

(END AUDIO CLIP) BERMAN: Rubio is a favorite of the party's conservative wing.

PEREIRA: In a new video, two young women in Islamic garb are seen begging their government to rescue them saying, quote, "We are in big danger and we could be killed." The father of one of the two Italian girls who disappeared in Syria in July says it is indeed them. One of the girls is seen holding a paper suggesting the video was shot in December. Some online postings say the video was from an al Qaeda affiliate.

BERMAN: The new year not starting off well for General Motors. The company has announced yet another recall. This one is affecting more than 92,000 trucks and SUVs. Once again, ignition defects are the problem, although a different problem, apparently, in earlier recalls. It could affect braking, steering, power, and airbag deployment. GM says no injuries or deaths have been caused by the defect and it expects fewer than 500 vehicles to actually have the condition.

PEREIRA: President Obama is enjoying some time with his family this new year in Hawaii. His first outing of 2015 found him enjoying a colorful shaved ice with daughters Malia and Sasha. Apparently the president ordered a yellow, green, and red concoction. No word on what that flavor is.

The president apparently told a couple dozen people that he hopes that they are having a good time and wished them happy new year. Even asked a toddler for a little fistbump. When he received the fistbump, he said, "Boom."

BERMAN: Because that is what you say.

PEREIRA: It is. Only actual response you can give a fistbump.

BERMAN: All right, 30 minutes after the hour. Thirteen-foot waves and monsoon conditions, the search has stalled day after day. Ahead, how weather right now is really the biggest obstacle in recovering Flight 8501.

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