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At This Hour

French Terror Suspects Cornered in Industrial Park; Other French Suspects Take Hostages in Kosher Market; Assaults Take Place at Both Hostage Standoff Locations

Aired January 09, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN CORESPONDENT: I don't know if you can see there's a little bit of commotion.

We are still, I would say, about 400 or 500 yards away from the actual site, away from that actual business park where all of this is going on.

So at this point in time, it's unclear whether or not shots were actually fired. We did hear something that did appear to sound like it might have been a shot that came from the direction of that business park where two suspects are holed up?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Fred? Fred?

FRED: Yeah?

COOPER: Fred, I want to bring in -- our Chris Cuomo has just been talking to me, and he's reporting based on the source he has that the assault has begun on this scene.

I want to bring in Chris to the live shot just to get us up to date on what he is hearing from his source. What are you hearing?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Just that the noise of the explosions is probable part of an assault being launched at that location, the industrial location, not the second one that's going on.

COOPER: This is the location where the two Kouachi brothers are believed to have been holding at least one hostage?

CUOMO: Yes. And all I'm being told is that there has been an assault launched on there. The surrounding conditions militated it is what I'm told. But I don't know what that means; we have to find out. But it goes along with what they're hearing.

COOPER: Fred, the small amount of smoke we're seeing from that industrial complex, that's the location of the printing shop?

PLEITGEN: That seems to be the location from where all that took place. Yeah, I mean, I can't see the smoke from here, but I did also hear, as I said, those two detonations. And it could have been that something was set off.

It's unclear whether or not the suspects that, of course, appear to be holed up there, whether or not they had explosives or whether or not the police itself is using some sort of stun or smoke grenades as part of some sort of siege as some sort of operation.

But certainly from the movement we're that seeing around here -- there's a lot more cars moving, there's a lot more police officers moving around as well -- it very well could be that some sort of siege has started, but it's impossible to confirm that from our position here.

However, if I were to describe the events that we've just heard, we heard one or two shots that were fired and then several what appeared to be large and somewhat dampened detonations. They sounded like they were coming from the inside of some sort of buildings. They didn't appear to be coming from out in the open.

Of course, we do know these two people there holed up in that printing center, as I said, about 400 yards away from where I am. And we also know the police over the past couple of hours has been evacuating the schools around here.

As we've said this area has been on lockdown, the schools have been on lockdown. They've been bussing children out of the schools around here, possibly to try and evacuate that area.

The actual print shop itself is inside a business park which is surrounded by a residential area. There's people who live in very close proximity to that, and that whole area is absolutely cordoned off by police.

We know that they were at least at the perimeter of that print shop. There were indications that perhaps they were going in and out of the business park.

So it's unclear whether or not the siege has started but there are indications from what we're hearing that it could be the case.

COOPER: Fred, again, Chris Cuomo here, what are -- you were just talking to a source here --

CUOMO: The smoke, we're being told, is from flash bangs, not a fire, not a massive explosion, but we know what they are. Flash bangs are for deception to provide cover.

There have been two rounds of fire so far between the men inside, the terrorist suspects, and forces outside. It's not over yet. It's in progress.

COOPER: And Atika Shubert joining us on the phone. Atika, you heard some of these blasts, yes?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): That's right. There were several volleys of what sounded like automatic weapons gunfire and then at least three explosions, two of them happening in the midst of the gunfire just a few seconds ago on its own.

We cannot see inside to the area. We can see the industrial site, but we can't see inside into the building where -- but it does seem to be possibly an assault under way at this moment, judging by the gunfire we heard earlier, Anderson.

COOPER: And the location, Chris, obviously this is this printing shop that the Kouachi brothers had apparently gone into earlier this morning, taken the owner, we believe, hostage.

What's interesting, and I know you've been reporting this as well, the suspect in the other hostage standoff has been demanding the release, the freedom, for the Kouachi brothers.

Of course now law enforcement will be concerned if this operation is undergoing, if the hostage taker has had any contact with the Kouachi brothers or is aware that the operation is now under way up near the Charles de Gaulle Airport, whether or not that's going to have blowback, whether that's going to have an impact on the hostage standoff taking place at the kosher supermarket.

CUOMO: Yeah. You raise the right issue. There are several variables that we've had described to us in this regard. One is if they are in direct contact, and the issue is exactly as you present it.

However, we have been told that at least at the industrial site that the assets in place would allow to create communication only with authorities, jamming any other communication, that that is very well likely.

However, the third variable would be that they may have access to media beyond the particular cell phone, and that may also be true at the standoff that's going on at the marketplace. So even if the cell phone is primarily jammed, they may be getting media information another way, and that could create a complication.

We're also being told, Anderson, about this operation that's in progress. One of the reasons that the authorities liked this particular setup was that not only is it blind to the outside -- as you see, there aren't many windows -- but that there could be a chance for a multiple points of entry.

And the flash bangs are obviously a telltale sign of a deceptive operation, and you see men climbing around. There could be two different angles of assault going on at the same time within that building.

But, again, I'm being told it's not over.

COOPER: And, Tom Fuentes, obviously you would want as many entries as possible to try to come at this from as many different entries as possible, as many different vantage points as possible.

TOM FUENTES: Yes, you would, Anderson. What's worrisome to me is that the reports of gunshots preceding the loud bangs, the loud noises.

Normally in a SWAT rescue operation, dynamic assault, those grenades are used because they're so loud, and especially inside a building or a confined room that they stun the central nervous system of everybody, including the hostage taker, allowing the rescuers at least one second free time to run in and hopefully neutralize the hostage taker.

If you heard gunshots first, that's a possible sign that this thing went bad and that the hostage takers shot first, and then they used the grenades afterward and did the rescue.

So normally the loud bang should have preceded small gun fire.

COOPER: And, simply, we don't know at this point what the status of these two brothers is.

They're telling me what this is, new video taken from just moments ago. There you can clearly see a greater amount of smoke than we had seen in some of the other video. We're taking video from a number of different local media sources, so this is why we're seeing this for the first time.

That would most likely be from the flash bangs. You can also clearly see -- and, again, this is from a short time ago, so this is not live pictures. We're not giving away operational details here. You see some individuals. It looks like law enforcement or paramilitary forces on the roof of at least one building.

CUOMO: The color of that smoke, obviously, Anderson, familiar to you, consistent with being a flash bang, not that dark or acrid smoke that would be somewhat more symbolic of an actual fire that's going on.

We're also told that a medic helicopter is arriving on scene. The supposition there would be there's a need to evacuate wounded.

There's an early indication that the operation may be finished because they're moving in that helicopter. We're awaiting further information.

COOPER: There you clearly saw one of the flashes going off, again, Atika Shubert saying shots before she heard some of the explosions or the flash bangs.

Earlier, local police, local law enforcement had said that they had been in contact with -- actually, this is from a local lawmaker -- that law enforcement had been in contact with at least one of the hostage takers, one of the Kouachi brothers, who said that they were willing to die and wanted to die as martyrs.

Again, we do not know if -- what the status of these two suspects is at this point, and we should point out there is still this other hostage standoff happening not all that far away, about 25 or so miles away in a kosher supermarket, at least one hostage taker holding what we believe may be as many as six hostages.

There have been some wounded, some reports, local media reports, of at least one or two fatalities earlier in the day, in the initial -- in the start of that hostage-taking incident, but we don't know if -- we cannot independently confirm whether or not there have been fatalities in that incident. That standoff, though, still ongoing but it seems like this standoff in this industrial park at this printing shop has ended or is very close to ending. Exactly how it's ended, we do not know the details of that.

CUOMO: You have to remember that even though they're dealing with two suspects and potentially a hostage, assuming that they're all located together, the flash bang provides very good cover. It disorients in sound. There's the flash of light, there's the smoke that will remain there for cover.

But it also winds up complicating outcome in terms of us assessing and understanding what's going on. That's obviously going to be balanced with the fact that they're just dealing with two men, and hopefully for the authorities, they were together.

And that medic helicopter coming in means that somebody has done an assessment from inside, communicating need and bringing in that helicopter. I don't know if that's what it is. We're showing footage. It may current. It may be lapsed footage.

COOPER: This is from earlier this morning, we should point out. Again, at least three blasts at this suspects -- the magazine suspects' siege site, these are the two suspects, according to French law enforcement, who were involved in the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks.

They now also believe this third suspect does have relationship with the Kouachi brothers, the third suspect holding hostages at the kosher supermarket.

CUOMO: So the question there is, as you've been raising -- the most important issue is are the two related in terms of what happened here at "Hebdo?"

Secondarily, are they connected now in terms of communication. It's a much more complex situation that's going on in the marketplace because you have more hostages, and there's a presumption that there are children involved. And there's also been a threat of using those hostages to gain the release.

So you have what the main ingredients of what they'll call a high-risk operation are, which is that the man has hostages -- the suspect has hostages, and they're planning to use them.

That is something that flies in the face of what the two people in the industrial park, those terror suspects, had promised, that civilians weren't supposed to be hurt. They wouldn't hurt women and children, and obviously it makes that promise ring hollow, given what's happening in the location closer to us here.

COOPER: And, frankly, the two brothers said they wouldn't shoot women in the office of "Charlie Hebdo." At least one woman was killed in those offices, so they've talked about a lot of different things, all of which have not come to pass.

Obviously, we are also now learning more about these two brothers and, again, whether or not they are in custody, whether they are dead, whether they are still alive, we do not know their status.

CUOMO: They are also evacuating children from the school that was very near to the industrial park. That is another sign that whatever happened inside side has reached a point of finality, that they feel comfortable doing that. And we're waiting on more information now.

But you had a medic helicopter called in. You have kids that are being evacuated. Both of those are indications that someone inside the building from the French authorities made the assessment that it was safe to move, safe to call someone in.

The question is what happened inside? We're waiting on that.

COOPER: And, if you are just joining us, watching on CNN INTERNATIONAL "AROUND THE WORLD" or the United States, I want to bring you all up to date on these fast-moving developments.

Jim Sciutto is standing by. Jim, what are you hearing? You're at the supermarket. What's going on?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, in the last 30 seconds, we heard four possibly five large explosions. This is just over my right shoulder here.

If you could see that blue blinking police light there beyond these two armed officers, that's the scene where the kosher market is.

And we heard those explosions come in very fast succession, and they were loud. They sounded louder than flash-bang grenades, which often are a first step before you might have tactical units move into a hostage situation.

They were very loud, reverberating off the buildings around here. As you may remember, earlier, just a little less than an hour -- now I'm hearing gunfire. Multiple shots. Automatic fire.

I'm going to stop speaking there, just so you can hear it as well as I am. It's continuing. Another explosion, this all happening about 300 yards from where we are at this kosher market. You can see it just behind us.

These officers here are the ones who, earlier in the day, had been moving us back to a safer distance. We can now understand why they were taking those steps.

Again, multiple explosions. As I were saying a bit earlier, as we heard them, oftentimes you will hear flash-bang grenades when tactical units move into hostage situations like that. That's designed to stun the attacker, clear some space for them to go in and then neutralize the attacker here.

We did hear that gunfire, hard to distinguish from this point whether the gunfire was coming from the outside, tactical units moving in, or the possibility, of course, Anderson and Chris, from the inside where we know that the hostage taker holding the hostages inside there, perhaps as many as six, was heavily armed and is believed to be the same man who killed a female police officer yesterday.

So, again, this all unfolding just in the last couple minutes here about 300, 400 yards away. We believe we're at a safe distance, but the gunfire continued for a bit. It has since stopped, and we're going to be listening for more details as it goes on.

COOPER: Jim, I'm wondering how many explosions did you hear? And did you hear gunshots before the explosions or were the explosions first?

SCIUTTO: It started, Anderson, with a group of four or five explosions then a pause of a couple minutes, then we heard gunfire, multiple shots, at least two dozen shots. Some of them, I could tell, were not single shots, but that the weapons were on automatic fire, bursts of shots, and then we heard a second round of explosions, one or two that were smaller. Those first explosions, Anderson, were much bigger. And again, they sounded, to me, like they were larger explosions than you might hear with a flash bang grenade, which is a typical method used by tactical units as they move in to stun the attacker, get some space, they might even throw smoke grenades to conceal their movement as they come in. You can hear me now - you can hear over my voice now a siren heading closer to the scene and just throughout this, I'll remind our viewers, there's been a helicopter often over the top and it's been equipped with a video that allows them to give a live stream from the air of the situation on the ground. Anderson?

COOPER: Jim, I want to bring in Chris Cuomo. Chris, you're hearing from your sources?

CUOMO: That both of these assaults were simultaneous. They were launched as operations at about the same time. Jim, do you have something you need us to know?

SCIUTTO: I just want to say, we've been seeing now across the bridge there, there's a bridge going over the highway, and you might be able to see them on camera, dark silhouettes of men, tactical units, advancing towards the kosher market. These are the men we saw staging before. Picture them, all in black, body armor, black ski masks, heavily armed. They were the ones we saw staging before. Just after this gunfire and these explosions, we've seen them streaming across this bridge going over this highway there. Again, towards that kosher market.

CUOMO: Thanks, Jim. So what we understand from the sources close to the investigation is that both of these assaults were contemporaneous. They went off at the same time, they obviously used similar deceptive methods. I am being told that the one in Paris, I guess they're meaning there the marketplace, was a very violent assault. I'm asking for follow-up, you know, who was hurt and how. I'm waiting for that information. And I've just been told it was a cleaner operation at the industrial center, but we're waiting on more details and obviously why they decided to do them at the same time, could be for a hundred reasons that don't really matter to us right now. It's all about the outcome, and hopefully that the hostages, certainly in the marketplace and the woman in the industrial center, are all okay.

COOPER: Right. And we don't know the status of the hostages both in the supermarket --

CUOMO: Do not know.

COOPER: -- nor in the industrial center. As Chris pointed out, there were as many as six hostages believed to be held in the supermarket. There was one hostage believed to be held. Jim, what are you seeing now?

SCIUTTO: Well, I just wanted to make a point that there was actually some time between the operation that took place northeast of Paris and the operation here. At least five or ten minutes, because we heard those reports, we heard our colleagues reporting northeast of Paris before we heard the gunfire here. Not far apart, but there was a few minutes between them. But I would expect, as Chris is hearing, that they would do these in conjunction, at least, particularly mindful of the fact that the shooter here had demanded the freedom of the two gunmen held northeast of Paris.

They would, of course, be concerned that if we were to hear news reports, see something, hear something on his telephone, get a call from a friend or a contact that that raid was underway, that he might do something here. It would make sense that those two would happen very close to each other. But there was some daylight between them. And again, if I could just add, Anderson and Chris, again, in these last few minutes we continue to see those black silhouettes of the tactical police crossing the bridge there flooding the zone, once again, around this hostage standoff at this kosher market here. The tension here, incredible. I'll tell you, the sound of those booms when the explosions first happened here, they were big. They sounded bigger to our ears than flash bang grenades and a number of shots, perhaps two dozen shots, automatic gunfire.

COOPER: Jim Sciutto, we should point out, Jim Bittermann telling me or saying he's gotten a report that people, civilians, have been seen leaving the scene of the store - leaving the scene of the supermarket. Again, we don't know the status of what was believed to be as many as six hostages. Atika Shubert is standing by at the industrial park near the Charles De Gaulle Airport where the two Kouachi brothers had been hold up. Atika, what are you seeing there now?

SHUBERT: We have heard explosions now that started with the volley of gunfire. We've heard two explosions and -- the initial explosions, actually, were quite loud - (INAUDIBLE) - expected to see a flash grenade - there was a bit of -

COOPER: We're having a problem with Atika Shubert's --

SHUBERT: And then a solitary explosion. Since then, there have been - activity that we can see, just a little bit of smoke. I can -- I did see a (INAUDIBLE) coming in, and actually, I'm just now seeing another helicopter take off quite close to the industrial park. It looks like a police helicopter. Doesn't look like a medical helicopter that I can see at this point. I don't know if they're evacuating people or if they're just getting a better look at aerial for the site, but there are helicopters in the area. I also spoke to a resident whose home is right behind the building. He did not see it. The police have told him to shutter all the windows, draw his curtains. He said it was very scary, very loud explosions all around him, everyone just hunkering down hoping that the assault will end soon.

COOPER: We obviously lost contact there with Atika Shubert. On the timing of these assaults, clearly, the assault on the industrial park is the one that took place first, that Jim Sciutto pointed out, with a several minute gap in between. The question, of course, is was it a planned assault.? Did they plan to go in at that time, or were they responding to something that was taking place inside this printing shop that they feel that they have to go in at that particular time? Atika Shubert had reported she had heard gunshots prior to the flash bangs going off. Tom Fuentes had raised the concerns about that, as did -- were there gunshots inside that somehow the police felt they had to go in and then was the follow-up operation, the other operation at the supermarket, was that because the operation at the industrial park had undertaken and they were afraid of what the ramifications of that might be in the supermarket? We simply do not know. That's something we'll be learning --

CUOMO: We're staying away from the reporting, obviously, until we can get it right. There's certainly no reason to be early and wrong in a situation like this. However, we do know this much, sources close to the investigation have been told that both operations were being called satisfactory and that police coming out of the marketplace were saying that they had a successful operation. We don't know what that means in terms of hostages and who's alive and who isn't, in terms of the suspects. So hopefully it means, at a minimum, that everybody is safe.

COOPER: Obviously, we will find out more in the coming minutes, and obviously throughout the day we'll learn more about the details of this. Clearly, though, both situations seem to be resolved. Seem to be -- well, let's wait on that, actually. Jim Sciutto is standing by. Jim, any more developments you're hearing?

SCIUTTO: Just some more, Anderson. Of course, this is happening, unfolding as we stand here, over the minutes. We've just seen one, two, three ambulances and you've heard that gunshot just there, as well. We've seen those ambulances cross that bridge, you can see there behind me where the blue blinking light is of the police van. We've also seen those tactical units that we saw go in before, some of them moving back still with their weapons drawn. Still with their bulletproof shields. But of course, most concerning development just in these last few seconds here, really, are those three ambulances going in there indicating the possibility of casualties on the scene? Remember, I reported earlier in the day, as we were first coming to this scene, a couple of hours ago, we saw other ambulances leaving. I saw someone put on a stretcher at that point, because there were early reports of casualties. But signs here that there may have been casualties in this attack, as well.

COOPER: Again, whether or not the casualties in the final operation were of hostages or were, in fact, of the hostage-taker, not clear at this point. We want to be very careful in the reporting on this. Jim, as far as you can tell, have you seen any -- we got a report earlier from -- that civilians were seen leaving the supermarket. Have you seen any of that? Have you heard any reports on that?

SCIUTTO: From where we are here, it's too far to distinguish among the silhouettes we're seeing as they cross that bridge, as nightfall comes to Paris, whether they were civilians. Several of them were clearly tactical units, because we could see their weapons drawn, we could see their body armor. We haven't been able to make out any civilians who have left in the opposite direction at this point. At least from this vantage point. Doesn't mean that they didn't escape safely, but we haven't been able to see them from here.

COOPER: Alright. I want to bring you up to date just on the situation again. This is moving very quickly. It's about 5:25 here in Paris. For the last several hours, two simultaneous hostage standoffs have been taking place. Just in the last several minutes. Starting with the -- an operation in the town of Dammartin, which is near the Charles De Gaulle Airport, where the two Kouachi brothers, suspects in the "Charlie Hebdo" attack, had been hold up for the last several hours with one hostage, shots rang out, flash bang grenades going off, smoke rising from that industrial park from a printing shop where the two brothers had been hold up with what is believed to be the printing shop owner.

That operation appears to be over. The exact status of these brothers and the hostage, we simply don't know. According to a source of Chris Cuomo's, close to law enforcement here in France, some of the officers leaving the scene said the operation was satisfactory. Exactly how to interpret that, we leave that up to you. We'll try to gather more information on that. The other operation that's been taking place, the supermarket standoff that's been going on for several hours, a kosher supermarket in the east of Paris, that operation, that standoff also now appears to have been resolved. Jim Sciutto on the scene reported hearing a number of explosions, blasts, gunshots, also at that supermarket site. One report of civilians leaving that supermarket. The status of the hostage-taker, we don't know. Believed only one hostage-taker in that location. There is a female suspect involved, according to French law enforcement, in the shooting death of a French policewoman yesterday morning. If -- she is believed to be still at large. If she was not in that supermarket, police have not said that they had apprehended her in any other location, so she would still be at large.

Questions remain, if, in fact, these hostage takers have been either apprehended or killed, those are the only two options at this point, if the situation with these three male hostage takers has been resolved, one way or the other, the question now for law enforcement is, are there other members of this cell, what is believed to be some sort of a cell, are there other members of the cell out there? Are there more people involved in the attack on "Charlie Hebdo?" Where is the female suspect whose photo we have been showing? Though these two standoffs may have been resolved, and exactly how they were resolved and the full details, we don't yet have, but is this operational cell - is it finished? Or is there more to come from this group? We don't know, Chris.

CUOMO: That is going to be a very difficult question to answer, that's for sure ,because it seemed to have extended itself just from what we thought we knew from the beginning of what happened here at "Charlie Hebdo." This cell grew in its number and in its intentionality. I'm hearing that at the industrial park that both -- what they're saying is -- both terrorists are accounted for and that the hostage is accounted for. They said, obviously, that the terrorists did not escape. The hostage is okay, they're saying, it's an initial assessment. They're going back in now and that there have been wounded involved with both operations. The breakdown of where that happened is still unclear. There were special forces who were wounded in this, but in which assault and how many, that information is still coming.

COOPER: You're getting this from a source who has good connections to French law enforcement, so you're hearing from this source that the hostage is still alive.

CUOMO: The industrial park hostage has been accounted for. They did not say that they are dead and that they said it was a satisfactory result.

COOPER: And if you're confused about - our viewers -- by suddenly seeing a fancy French television studio, we're taking these images from French television from a variety of different sources, as well as our own cameras, which are on the scene, so that's why, occasionally, you'll see other reporters you may not identify or actually be hearing from.

Obviously now, the smoke has cleared at the industrial park, a printing shop, which really was, as far as we can tell, just some place the Kouachi brothers ended up. This was not any predetermined plan on their part. You know, they basically have been, it seems, on the run and reacting to events, allegedly robbing a gas station to try to get some gas, try to get some food and supplies, stealing another vehicle this morning. More unclear, though, is what the other two suspects in the shooting of the French policewoman have been up to really over the last 24 hours.