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At This Hour

Breaking Developments in Germanwings Investigation; Bloody Siege at Kenyan University; Fix for Indiana Law Under Way. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired April 02, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:40] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Terror in Kenya, 15 dead and hundred unaccounted for after gunmen storm a college campus. The hostage situation still unfolding AT THIS HOUR.

Breaking new developments the Germanwings air disaster. The second black box found at the crash site. And a tablet appears to be filled with clues found in the co-pilot's home. What does it tell investigators about the possible motivation behind the crash?

And California running dry, the governor's drastic water measures. Residents being forced to use much less. The state in the grip of an unprecedented drought.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Kate Bolduan. John Berman is off today. We have a lot to get to, including breaking news on the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525. A lot of new developments happening in just the last few minutes. Officials now say they have found a tablet used by co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, and they found his search history from the days leading up to the crash and say he searched for methods of suicide and for information on cockpit doors and their security measures. Officials also tell CNN Lubitz was, quote, "very afraid" he would lose his license to fly because of his medical issues.

A lot to get to for that and also new findings at the crash site, the second black box has been located. Let's bring in justice correspondent Pamela Brown, who's in Dusseldorf, Germany. Pamela, so many threads now into the possible motivation of Andreas Lubitz. What more are you learning?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Kate. A dramatic new development today from the Dusseldorf prosecutor. He provided evidence that's really the first indication of just how premeditated Andreas Lubitz's actions were. As you point out, from March 16 to the day before the plane crash, he had been searching on his tablet about methods of how to commit suicide, also searching for various medical treatments. And we also learned according to the prosecutor that on at least one day for several minutes he searched terms relating to cockpit doors and their security measures. That news coming from the Dusseldorf prosecutor today. We also learned, according to a source close to this investigation,

that Lubitz apparently had a severe depression relapse in late 2014. We know he had depression in 2008, that he self-reported in 2009. And this source says he was desperately seeking help from doctors, basically doctor shopping. He was seeing at least five or six doctors leading up to the plane crash. We know at least a neuropsychologist, an eye doctor for vision problems that turned out to be psychosomatic, according to this doctor, as well as a sleep specialist. Apparently, Kate, he was having a lot of trouble sleeping.

But I'm also told that investigators have interviewed a pilot that he flew with the day before the plane crash. And that pilot told investigators that he acted normal, that there was nothing out of the ordinary, no problem whatsoever. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Pamela, also tell us what you're hearing about finally that second black box, the flight data recorder, being located. What's the latest on that? What are they hoping to get out of it?

BROWN: I think they're hoping to get the full picture from this flight data recorder and make sure that all their "i"s are dotted, "t"s are crossed. I think they have a clear picture on the criminal investigation side, but they want to make sure that there wasn't something else happening with the plane, some malfunction with the cockpit door locks, or something like that. So this flight data recorder will give them that reassurance, that peace of mind, that whatever conclusion they reach is the accurate conclusion. Kate?

BOLDUAN: And, real quick, Pamela, back to all the information that you're getting from your sources. Are they making the leap yet -- or maybe it's not so much of a leap at this point, unfortunately -- that this was a premeditated action taken by the co-pilot?

BROWN: The prosecutor stopped short of saying premeditated today, Kate. But when he's saying, look, in the days leading up to the crash, even the day before, he's searching suicide methods, he's searching how cockpit door security -- I think that he all but relayed the message that Andreas Lubitz was thinking about committing suicide and also, you know, looking into cockpit door security right up to the crash.

[11:05:11] It would be very coincidental if he was searching that without having some intention in mind as far as what he did. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Horrific and tragic and gets to the big question -- I know you're asking the same, as many other people, all of our analysts are -- how did this person slip through the cracks? That's the big question going forward obviously as they continue to investigate Andreas Lubitz.

Pamela, thank you so much, doing amazing work with her sources in Dusseldorf, Germany, for us.

Now let's turn our attention to another situation that is unfolding as we speak. A bloody siege at a university in Kenya. Officials say at least 15 people are dead. But then there is this -- 500-plus others still unaccounted for, if you can believe it. A chaotic scene that's still unfolding at Garissa University College. It's near the Somalia border with Kenya.

Some reports saying gunmen are separating Christians from Muslims, killing or capturing the Christian students and setting the Muslims free. Important to note though on that, as with most developing situations where we don't have really good eyes and ears on the ground, CNN has not verified those witness accounts quite yet. But those are some of the reports that we're getting.

The attackers are holding hostages in one of the dormitories. Hundreds of students running for their lives at the very same time, some on their hands and knees trying to crawl to safety. The al Qaeda-linked al Shabaab is claiming responsibility. U.S. officials clearly watching this situation very, very closely.

Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has taken a look at that. So Barbara, what are you hearing from the Pentagon at this hour?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, the Pentagon, the U.S. intelligence community, has been watching al Shabaab for years. This is their latest attack. Again, this group out of Somalia, moving against the so-called soft targets. They have attacked shopping malls in the past, attacking this university, areas that are simply not practical for anyone to fully protect.

So they moved against this university, and the situation on the ground, as you say, still unfolding, still very unclear as to exactly the casualties, the wounded, how many are being held hostage. Kenyan authorities trying to move against this but this is a big task for them.

Al Shabaab, their stronghold has been Somalia and they've been rooted out of some of those areas of Somalia because African Union troops have moved in and conducted a long campaign against them. Many people say that al Shabaab is on the run, if you will. But, look, they still have demonstrated today they can move against these soft targets.

Why is the U.S. continuing to be so concerned? Not just because of what has unfolded here, as terrible as it is for these people in Kenya -- that's certainly a priority concern today -- but watching al Shabaab because it was just several weeks ago that group issued a video claiming they were going to attack U.S. and European shopping malls, again another soft target. And they have demonstrated an ability to try and recruit Somali-Americans to travel to Somalia to join their cause, potentially launching lone wolf attacks. So this group may be down and out from their traditional type of attack, but they still pose a very serious threat. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Especially, Barbara, when you still have 500-plus unaccounted for or missing, and this has been going on for hours upon hours. You got to think there's going to be some update, you hope, from Kenyan officials sometime very soon to figure out exactly what's going on and how bad it is, if it's still ongoing.

Barbara Starr, thank you so much, at the Pentagon for us. AT THIS HOUR as well, lawmakers in Indiana have a fix, but will it

fly? Right now in the state's capital lawmakers are debating the new language for the controversial religious freedom law that we've spoken so much about. This comes after the enormous backlash and political pressure that forced Indiana's governor Mike Pence to ask lawmakers to change the law to "clarify", in his words, what they had -- their intent of the original law was not to discriminate. And now they say they're going to clarify it does not discriminate against anyone, including gay and lesbian -- members of the gay and lesbian community.

Let's bring in Miguel Marquez, who is in Indianapolis. So Miguel, exactly what does the new wording say and what exactly does it mean?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The clarification seems to be, in another light, a full reversal of where the law was before. Look, before it defined entities as private individuals, corporations, anyone who applied their religious freedoms when it came to serving anyone else, whether it was a baker, or a florist, or a photographic studio.

The new law, this new report -- or this new language they're debating right back here in this committee -- is for the first time in Indiana history, amazingly enough, it includes the words sexual orientation and gender identity in the language of the bill itself.

[11:10:03] If this becomes law, it would be a history making bill for the state of Indiana, something that many gays and lesbians here want, but certainly the business community as well just sees it as bad business, they said, to create special classes of citizens and who can serve who and who can assert what rights in order to not serve others.

So this bill -- this fix, as they've called it -- goes well beyond a clarification and essentially nullifies that part of the original bill that they had -- that the governor signed into law. We expect they'll pass it here in committee, then both houses, and could have it, after a very late night, on the governor's desk much later today. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Pretty amazing, pretty astonishing how it really the change of events -- the chain of events that have led to this, as you say, kind of a full reversal of where things were, especially when the governor went to the Sunday shows to say that it didn't discriminate at all, just less than a week ago at this point.

Miguel Marquez in Indianapolis for us. Miguel, thank you so much. We'll get back to Miguel when things change there.

Nuclear talks with Iran are now also in double over time, if you want to continue the metaphor. We're two days past the initial deadline to reach a framework agreement on Tehran's nuclear program. There's no deal yet. But negotiators are still in Switzerland and still at the table. Iran 's foreign minister saying this, that we have made significant progress. His French counterpart saying that they're just a few meters from the finish line. Iran wants quick relief from sanctions, especially U.N. sanctions, while western nations want to ensure a deal won't let the nation develop a nuclear weapon. Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, millions of Californians forced to change

their ways because of a dry spell that has turned into a massive crisis. We're going to show you how serious the problem has become and what the new water restrictions will mean.

And also coming up next, much more on this tablet found in co-pilot Andreas Lubitz's home. What does the information on this tablet tell us about the mind of the man that was behind the controls in the days before he killed himself and 149 others on board that flight?

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[11:15:39] BOLDUAN: Major new developments on crashed Germanwings Flight 9525. Authorities there have analyzed a tablet found in the co-pilot's home and say he was researching in the days leading up to the crash, information on suicide and cock-pit doors and their security. Officials also tell CNN that Lubitz, Andreas Lubitz, was seeing at least five doctors recently, and was afraid that he would lose his license to fly, because of the medical issues he was facing.

Let's bring in David Soucie, CNN Safety Analyst and former FAA Inspector, and Mary Schiavo, CNN Aviation Analyst and former Inspector General for The U.S. Department for Transportation.

So Mary, we're getting a lot of new threats coming from investigators from the prosecutor's offices, starting to paint, I would say, as a layman, a pretty clear picture of someone who is dealing with quite a lot and should not have been flying. When you're looking at the tablet seized, Mary, search terms, he was searching medical treatments, searching methods of suicide, searching cock-pit doors, information about the cock-pit doors and their security measures, without trying to jump, you don't want to jump too far ahead, but what does that tell you?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, sadly it tells me that some of the safeguards already in place, in other countries, including the United States, might have prevented him as using the plane as his vehicle for suicide. He obviously was concerned about the cock-pit door and keeping anyone else out of the cock-pit.

And had they had the two-person rule in place, in other words, if a pilot goes out, a flight attendant comes in, he might very well have selected some other method. But he was researching suicide and knew he had to keep anyone else out of that cock-pit and different procedures at the airline might have spelled a different end to his life and, certainly, to the lives of the planes on board.

BOLDUAN: You mean-

SCHIAVO: Persons on board.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And David, what do you gather from this? It seems pretty, pretty shocking. As Pamela Brown was saying at the top of the show, they stopped short of saying this was premeditate. But do you think shows-- does this show you someone, as a Safety Analyst, someone who's gone through and has been investigating these crashes, does this tell you that he was planning this?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it does in a couple of ways. One from the psychological aspect of being able to go to all of these other doctors, and there's reports now the fact that some of these doctors actually knew that he was a pilot, knew he was worried about this, and yet, there was no mechanism for them to be required to report that. He relied on him -- on the co-pilot himself to take this note back and report it to the authorities.

So, this is a real problem. And Mary brings it up well that there's a two cock-pit, or two-person in the cock-pit rule. But, I'm not sure that that's far enough. I think it is something that would prevent it from happening right away, but there's something deeper going, here, going on and there needs to be improvement in the regulatory reporting requirements for the medical psychological part of the medical certification process.

BOULDAN: Yes, I mean, because, when you get down to it, Mary, we've talked about it in many different ways, but this is just one more example when you look at -- he was doctor shopping. He was seeing five, maybe six doctors at the time. He had told, according to sources tell Pamela Brown, that he had told one of the doctors he was afraid he was going to lose his license because of medical issues.

He was required, according to this doctor, to inform his employer he was not fit to fly. He clearly did not do that. It all comes together with this big question of how did he slip through the cracks? There seems to be a glaring crack/cabernous (sp) divide and how people can make it through the system.

SCHIAVO: There is and that divide exist in the United States and pretty much around the world and David is exactly right. The problem is that the, it's the self-reporting. It's the, it's the fessing up, if you will, and it's all in the shoulders of the pilots. But, you know, we need to trust, but verify part of that.

And one of the ways you can do it is, of course, is require a medical disclosure, medical records disclosure, to your flight medical examiner. They're called flight surgeons, but their just docs that give you your medical certificate. And that way the doctor wouldn't be at the mercy of just whatever the person told you. In the United States it's question. Question 47: have you had any psychological problems? And if the pilot says no and doesn't have outward appearance of problems, then the doctor is free to just talk to him and then move on. So, I think, there has to be more help on the doctor's end, as well, for disclosure of conditions.

[11:20:05] BOLDUAN: Now, the other thing coming out is that they've located the flight data recorder, the second black box, David. I mean, they seem to be pretty certain in, from the flight, the cock-pit voice recorder, what direction, obviously where we are in terms of the motivation and why the plane went down. What would you be looking for in, the flight data recorder, at this point?

SOUCIE: The very first thing I'd be looking for is to find out if it recorded the fact that the switch for overriding the lock and locking that back door, had been pushed down and/or held down. Because if we remember the recordings, there's no report of the fact that there's a warning sign or buzzer that goes off. So if it was proper done, where the pilot entered the code and tried to get into the cock-pit, there would be a 30-second buzzer. Unless, the co-pilot --

BOULDAN: And that information, if he pushed that lock button, that's in the flight data recorder?

SOUCIE: It is in current aircraft. The question is, with this retrofit, this is a type two door in the airbus, it may well be in there, but I'm not certain if it would be. It's the first thing I'd look to see though.

BOLDUAN: Mary, what would you be looking for. What do you think is important to get from the flight data recorder right now?

SCHIAVO: Well, I think that David is right. That's in the first and foremost thing. And you might be able to hear that on the -- now that they know exactly what to look for, they might be able to hear that possibly on the flight cock-pit voice recorder. But, David's right, you have to find out if that door functioned as it should because we have to make sure that the doors function properly in the future.

Because the worst thing is copy cats. Whenever you have an event like this, you have others thinking about using it in the future and you don't want anyone to be able to copy cat this, particularly not terrorists. Do David's right on the second thing they'll do is just make sure there was no plane malfunction, that it was truly this person just doing it all.

BOLDUAN: Mary, David, excellent points all around. Thank you so much. A lot to look through today. Every day developments in this investigation, this tragic story unfolding before us. Thank you both.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, adding clarity. In an updated version of the religious freedom bill is now in the hands of Indiana lawmakers. Will they send it to the governor's desk and when? We're going to talk to the mayor of Indianapolis about the controversial measure and see if he thinks this is a fix.

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[11:25:43] BOLDUAN: "Hoosier hospitality had to be restored." Those are the words from Indiana's House Speaker, who announced new language to Indiana's religious freedom law. Lawmakers in Indiana state capital now are debating the amended version of this measure. In the update, it specifically now states, and it's pretty historic in that state, that the measure does not authorize a provider to refuse services to any member of the public on the basis of, among other things, sexual orientation or gender identity. Is this the fix that folks were looking for? Does it go far enough? You can definitely be sure that some say it goes way too far. Let's discuss this with Indianapolis Republican Mayor Greg Ballard. Mayor, thank you so much for coming in.

MAYOR GREG BALLARD, INDIANA (R): Thank you. I appreciate it. BOLDUAN: What do you make of this fix, if you will. What's your first initial thought.

BALLARD: Well, as we work through this week, it became clear to the General Assembly, that some strong language had to be there. I think they finally came to the conclusion about 48 hours ago. And so, the language actually got strengthened in the last 24 hours, which I was very much appreciative of. And the words you mentioned, sexual orientation and gender identity, being in the Indiana law for the first time, I think is really a great moment. But, I was a marine for 23 years. I want results. They've got a timetable to get this through today and signed today. And so, I want to see those results.

BOLDUAN: A couple things on that, Mayor. Would you describe this as a cave on the part of the Republican legislature?

BALLARD: I don't really think in terms of like that. I think most of the people who voted for this bill probably did not understand the ramifications of it all, so I give them credit for that. And I give them credit for admitting they did not foresee the backlash. Even though some people told them, but I don't think they understood just the volume of it that was coming forward.

So, I think they wanted to make it right. I always tell people there's a reason that so many conventions and so many sporting events and so many people come to the city of Indianapolis. It's a huge industry, here in our city, and because of the special relationships that we've built over the years. And so this was interpreted otherwise and that's why I've been so vocal about it. They have to fix this. In the meantime, they have to get these other protections in there.

BOLDUAN: I have to tell you Mayor, I am a Hoosier, I grew up in Northern Indiana. I mean, no one wants the Hoosier state to lose, I will say very biasly, I don't want to see the Hoosier state losing any tourism dollars. That's for sure. And I have family living in Indianapolis. So be nice to my sister, if you will Mayor. Thanks so much. But looking forward, you say want to see results. Do you think that, at all in question, that this fix is going to pass?

BALLARD: No, I'm not questioning that. But, I just want to see it done by the end of the day and then we can move forward. I think that will be a great result, for the day, and then we can go and have a great Final Four this weekend. We're going to have a great Final Four regardless, but I think we can concentrate solely on the game going forward if we can do that..

BOLDUAN: But, Mayor, really specifically, there are some lobbyists and social conservatives who were with the Governor in this private signing. They were there and made the statement about the florist not wanting to serve gay couples or take part in same sex wedding ceremonies.

Eric Miller has already spoken out, saying that now, this is exactly what folks are going to have to do. That's not right. What are you going to say to social conservatives? Because well you think, you don't want Indiana to be painted this way, as discriminating against the gay and lesbian community, you have social conservatives, who are behind this, backing this, pushing this bill, who are also now not happy.

BALLARD: Everybody has a different opinion on this and I would suggest that they're on the wrong side of history on this. As the years go forward, it's very clear where this is going to wind up. But, I would tell you even in the last week, when we were asking the question ourselves, can certain people be denied services, we were not getting an answer.

We couldn't get an answer on does the state law trump the city law? Because our city law has been very clear on this for a long time. And we wanted to make sure that clarification was there, so I give the General Assembly credit for adopting very strong language to that effect, but I want to see it at the end of the day.

[11:30:00] BOLDUAN: All right. Everyone is going to be watching. We'll also being watching your city with Final Four this weekend.

Mayor Ballard, thank you so much for your time.

BALLARD: Thank you.