Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Showdown Brewing in Boston Bombing Case; Pentagon Tries to Explain Employee Charge Card Misuse; How Many Americans Trying to Join ISIS; The Mimo Onesie, Wearable Baby Monitor; Interview Shows North Korea Threat to U.S. Aired 11:30-12p ET

Aired May 07, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:31:15] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Illegal showdown is brewing right now in the penalty phase for convicted Boston bomber -- Boston Marathon bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Prosecution is trying to prevent one of the final potential witnesses from the defense from taking the stand. That witness is a famous death penalty abolitionist known as Sister Prejean.

CNN ANCHOR: She's best known for writing the book "Dead Man Walking," adapted into 1995 film with Susan Sarandon.

Joining us to talk about this, CNN's Deborah Feyerick; also criminal defense attorney and CNN legal analyst, Danny Cevallos.

Prejean is well known. Why is she at the trial? What does the defense want with her?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The prosecutor doesn't want her to testify because she could create sympathy for Tsarnaev. They believe she could have an impact and convince jury Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's life is worth saving. We're hearing a long conversation about super max prison he'd likely be sent to. An eighth wing, terrorist house. Prosecution are splitting hairs about the difference between being in solitary confinement and general population. Really, the difference is you do get some additional sort of consideration. For example, you can have visitors a few times a month. It's really you're still locked in a cell 23 hours a day. Any time you leave, your hands are shackled, your feet are in leg irons. Have very little interaction with anybody outside. So it's interesting to be watching Dzhokhar Tsarnaev sitting in the courtroom listening to what his future is going to be, if he does get life in prison and if he is sentenced to that. Also, look, think about what's going through his head. You can't possibly imagine, but he really seems to have almost checked out. He's listened to this. He knows what his future is and neither option is particularly interesting.

BOLDUAN: Laid out, the reason the defense wants to bring in this nun, would create sympathy for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. I'm confused. Isn't that what they are trying to do all along? They called some 40 witnesses, called in relatives from Russia, classmates testifying he's impressionable and this was kind of brainwashing from his older brother, all trying to create sympathy. Why do you think there's so much being made about this one witness?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Because admitting her testimony would be a very close call under the rules. The federal rules of evidence do not apply in federal death penalty proceedings like this. Instead the judge is required to accept virtually any mitigating evidence. But that has limitations. It must relate to the character, circumstances or the facts about this particular offense.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: So the prosecution would have to know him or know something about him or be connected to him in some way?

CEVALLOS: Right. The prosecution will argue even under the relaxed rules in these proceedings, this should not be -- it has nothing at all to do with the defendant himself. She's just, I believe, going to talk about how bad the death penalty is, how she crusaded against it and not a particularly good thing in society. Those things are all interesting. But under the federal death penalty act do they relate to this particular defendant's character or the offense itself.

BOLDUAN: Deb -- is Deb still with us?

Deb, do you know when they are going to wrap this up? When they are going to have this decision?

FEYERICK: Initially, we thought that the defense was going to wrap today. Now it appears they may need some extra time. We don't know whether Sister Prejean is going to be called to testify. Right now we're hearing about restrictive measures. Unclear. The defense is doing everything they possibly can to spare Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's life, to convince a jury that, in fact, you can sentence him to death. It will be over. Sentence him to life. Given what we just heard in that courtroom, it's certainly not going to be a much better choice.

[11:35:24] BOLDUAN: Deborah Feyerick, Danny Cavallas, thanks so much for being with us.

We'll bring that decision if we get any time soon.

Ahead for us AT THIS HOUR, how many Americans radicalized by ISIS online? We have a number and it is startling.

Plus blackjack, escorts, hey, it's a Pentagon business trip, spending money on your credit card. There's a hearing right now trying to explain how this happened. We'll get an explanation and we'll see if you buy it. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Maybe they wanted the double awards that come with blackjack and escorts.

BOLDUAN: Maybe.

BERMAN: That's a stretch. In a "you can't make it up" category, a Defense Department audit found government employees charged gambling activities and, yes, adult entertainment to their government cards.

BOLDUAN: The good news, if there's good news here, appears a lot of charges reimbursed. At least we have what's called fiscally responsible escort-charging Pentagon employees. But there is something wrong obviously going on here, all fun aside. That raises a lot of concerns and a whole lot of questions.

Let's get into it. Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, has more on the report. And also joining us, Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa. He's the man behind the law that gets to the heart of this issue called the Government Charge Card Abuse Prevention Act.

Senator, we want to get your reaction in just a second.

But first, Barbara, lay out for us more about what this audit, what's in this report.

[11:40:02] BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Here is how it's supposed to work. You go on a trip, Pentagon employee person. You use your government credit card. You're supposed to file for reimbursement for legitimate government expenses, not supposed to use it for personal expenses. Just like CNN when employees travel. They have had this problem before. I'm sure the Senator will address it. Has more aggressive oversight. This time this audit showing a very small percentage but still some people still putting those personal charges on their government credit card. What needs to be found out is how many of them tried to get government reimbursement for it. Many of them we've learned have already paid back the charges or paid for it themselves. Why do people do this sort of thing? One of the theories is when they have these expenses, if they put it on their government card, the bill doesn't come to the House. Their spouses don't see these questionable charges, and they go ahead and reimburse the government. It's not supposed to happen this way. A short time ago, a Pentagon spokesman told me we are going back through all of this, getting the money back from people and that there have been some disciplinary actions. But still, after all these years, people still trying to hide those charges -- Kate?

BERMAN: Barbara, thanks so much.

Senator, Barbara Starr calls them personal charges. I guess there are personal charges and then there are personal charges here. It pains me you had to write a law to stop this. What's the cost, Senator, to U.S. taxpayers here in how are we paying for this sort of embarrassing accounting?

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY, (R), IOWA: Well, first of all, the charge card is a government document. Whether it's paid back or not, they are using government official, let's say, a kitty card to get it done. It says official business only at the bottom of the card. Everybody knows you don't use prostitutes or gambling for it. We used to get this information from whistleblowers. Hopefully a lot less abuse now than there was 10 years ago when we first brought it up. The purpose was inspector general and official ride herd on this. He's going to issue the report. We're going to have to read the report to know whether further action has to be taken. But this sort of shenanigan should stop because every federal employee knows, common sense, you don't use a government credit card to pay for prostitution.

BOLDUAN: Every government employee should at least know what common sense is if they are going to abide by it. That's clearly a whole other question. Senator, from your experience, you've looked at how bad this problem is. You've been looking into this, dealing with it for 10 years. You get this law passed. Are you confident or has it been guaranteed to you that taxpayers are not on the hook for any of these charges yet?

GRASSLEY: Well, I can tell you in the past sometimes they have been on the hook and people haven't been fired and sometimes people haven't even been charged for the fraudulent use of taxpayers' money. In some instances there has been some prosecution. I can't give you a figure on it. But it lacks oversight by the department of defense. Listen, we've run into other departments, too, that have done the same thing. The purpose now is to make sure we got official oversight, rather than just relying on whistleblowers to tell us what the information is, whether it's being abused or not. That's what this report is all about. Now, whether something else needs to be done, we'll wait until we go all the way through this report.

BOLDUAN: What should happen to these employees in light of this, that will come out obviously in light of the report comes out. Thank goodness for your work in getting the law passed. These audits are happening on periodic basis.

Senator Grassley, thank you so much. We know you jumped out of a hearing to come speak with us. We really appreciate it, Senator.

GRASSLEY: Thank you. Thank you.

BERMAN: Seems a safe standard for government employees, every employee should know you don't use your government credit card for prostitution.

BOLDUAN: That's what he was getting at, they were using their card to get their stuff done and I think they should not be doing that.

BERMAN: Right.

Quarter to the hour, ahead for us, ISIS trying to radicalize kids online. Biggest target group, teens. New statistics that are surprising.

CNN gets an interview with a top-ranking North Korea. His stunning threats to the United States involving nuclear weapons. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:48:21] As investigators look into the two gunmen who tried to attack a cartoon contest in Texas, breaking this morning, dozens of Americans, 62 to be exact, in nearly 22 states have tried to join ISIS and other terror groups. They are young, active on social media, and a surprising number of them are women.

BOLDUAN: CNN's national security analyst, Peter Bergen, is testifying in a hearing on terror right now about really this exact topic, how ISIS is using social media to recruit Americans.

Let's bring in David Sterman. He and Bergen researched all this at the New America Foundation and came up with this really striking research.

David, thank you so much for joining us.

What I was really struck by, the fact that the people that have been recruited come from really diverse backgrounds. Have you seen a profile in your research, though, emerging of who is drawn or susceptible to being drawn to this type of radicalism.

DAVID STERMAN, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: Thanks for having me on.

Our key finding, or one of them, is there does not appear to be a single profile. They're Americans, as American as anyone else. They're from across the country. We found cases in 19 different states. A variety of ethnic communities that they come from. They're mostly men, which isn't surprising, but an unprecedented number of women. Large age range, but a quarter of them are teenagers. So this wide diversity makes it very difficult to find who to communicate with and to engage in a single strategy.

[11:50:14] BERMAN: You know, we keep hearing that so many of these young people that recruit online, on social media, that phrase is tossed around so casually, it makes it seem as if something is easy and you would think that it might be possible to stop it. Why is it so difficult for counterterrorism people to get in the way of that communication, the social media recruitment?

STERMAN: Well, to begin with, I think we should definitely recognize that law enforcement has been doing a pretty good job of this. There has been only one attack by a returning foreign fighter in the entire West -- or one successful attack four years into the Syrian conflict. The real challenge is these inspired cases like what appears to have occurred in Texas, which skirts the line of the level of information or activity that can trigger government investigation.

BOLDUAN: Well, David Sterman, thank you so much for your time.

Really impressive research. You can read more about it, he and Peter Bergen, they wrote a piece for us on CNN.com. Everybody take a look at that.

Thanks so much.

STERMAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Next for us, an exclusive interview with CNN. A North Korean official, a high-ranking member of the inner circle there, lays out that country's nuclear plan and perhaps ambitions against the United States, amazing detail.

First, a 21st century onesie. CNN.com's Samuel Burke is showing us a new way for parents to keep an eye and an ear on their newborns while they sleep. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

DULCIE MADDEN, CO-FOUNDER & CEO, MIMO: The Mimo is a wearable baby monitor. It has two sensors on the front. It shows a mom or dad their baby's breathing, skin temp, body position. Are they on their tummy, are they on their back, awake or asleep. You can set alerts to let you know if the baby rolls over, if they wake up, if there's a pause in breathing, if they're unusually warm or cool. We can show you a time line of what the baby's sleep is looking like and how it's developing over time.

SAMUEL BURKE, CNN.COM: Why would I possibly want to know all of that?

MADDEN: Our actual goal is to help be able to figure out how to help households sleep more and to sleep better.

SAMUEL BURKE, CNN.COM: Households?

MADDEN: Households. If a baby's sleeping, then usually parents are sleeping.

BURKE: When I told people about this story, the first reaction everybody has is my god, where is it going to stop, wearables and putting technology on children. So why would you be slapping technology on your kid?

MADDEN: I think that's a great question. When I first heard about Mimo, I thought the same thing. Then I had a kid. And as a first- time parent, you come home from the hospital and the fear and the paranoia set in and you say, oh, my gosh, I have no idea what I'm doing. Having the Mimo to give you feedback on critical pieces of data is, if nothing else, reassuring you, you're keeping your kid happy and alive and healthy.

BURKE: Understood. So like it may be better for parents than it is for babies.

MADDEN: I think it's just as good for parents as it is for babies.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:57:14] BOLDUAN: To North Korea now. CNN's Will Ripley got an exclusive interview with a member of the North Korean regime's inner circle.

BERMAN: The headline, "North Korea plans to pursue its nuclear weapons program despite all the sanctions." It allegedly has nuclear missile capability to strike the U.S. And this inner-circle guy says North Korea would do so if needed.

I want to bring in CNN's chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

Jim, listening to this interview Will had this official seemed to indicate there was a trigger with which North Korea would use its nuclear weapons here. What is that? Do we have any indication?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Any time you hear a threat like this, it's alarming. First all, there are questions whether North Korea has the technology to successfully miniaturize a warhead, put it on top a missile and get that missile successfully across the ocean to the U.S. coastline. There's questions there. Two, although they have certainly made advances, two, would they actually do so, knowing the likely U.S. response, which would in effect be suicidal, right. That said, there is still strategic concerns here because what does this give North Korea cover for. This is a country that sank a South Korean navy ship a couple of years ago, killed 40-some odd sailors. So by having that threat of the nuclear option, literally and figuratively, does it give them cover to carry out other threatening military steps in the region and it is truly destabilizing. This is something that China, for all of our disagreements with them, have come around on much closer to the U.S. view on nr North Korea now. It is unsettling. As you look at the Iran nuclear deal, it's a model going forward there. Because a lot have concerns about Iran's nuclear potential. They look to North Korea and say, listen, you've made deals in the past before and look what happened under cover. So, you know, it's alarming whether it's something that they would follow through on, that's more in the category of bluster, but it does change the calculus on the ground in that region in a threatening way.

BOLDUAN: Of course, as has to be said a lot with North Korea, is this more saber rattling and when does it reach that level. The question now is, is the administration responding to what this North Korea, what this guy is really kind of laying out there?

SCIUTTO: I doubt that they'll respond specifically to that comment, they'll put it more in the category of bluster. In terms of the threat from North Korea, it's something they take seriously.

BERMAN: Jim, last question, Will has amazing access in North Korea. The North Koreans are letting him in for some reason. Any sense of why?

SCIUTTO: When they want to get a message out, and this is clearly a message they want to get out there on this nuclear threat, they want to respond to the charges for instance of the assassinations or the executions, rather, of senior officials, so they want to get a message out, that's what they'll do.

BERMAN: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you for joining us.

And thank you, all, for joining us.

[12:00:06] BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

"Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.