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At This Hour

Interview with Boston Police Commissioner; Duggars Admit Josh Molested Four of His Sisters; ISIS Captures Major Dam. Aired 11:00- 11:30a ET.

Aired June 04, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: He's just saying I'm out of here. So am I, actually. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello, At This Hour, Berman and Bolduan starts now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: ISIS is here and this is war. That from the woman officials say was one of the targets of a Boston terror network. Boston's police commissioner is joining us live. How close did the suspects come to attacking police?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking their silence, the Duggars admitting their son molested four of his sisters. So did they do everything they could to stop him? What questions remain unanswered?

BOLDUAN: Water as a weapon of war. ISIS captures and cuts off a major dam hoping to kill people with thirst. Now families there are leaving everything behind to escape a massacre. Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman. New details this morning on what officials call an ISIS inspired plot to kill police in Boston. One suspect is dead, another in custody. But could more people have been involved? Boston police and a member of a joint terrorism task force shot and killed Usaamah Rahim Tuesday in a parking lot. They said he had military fighting knives and a plan to, in his words, go after those boys in blue.

BOLDUAN: The FBI had been watching Rahim for years. Authorities believe that ISIS radicalized him and initially wanted to behead conservative activist Pamela Geller but he changed his mind because his jihad couldn't wait. Geller spoke earlier to CNN. Listen.

PAMELA GELLER, TARGET OF ALLEGED TERROR PLOT: They are coming after me for violating Shia, for violating the Blasphemy laws and they mean to come after to everyone. That doesn't abide by voluntarily. The Blasphemy laws under Islamic law.

BOLDUAN: Never been fair because we've been following the investigation, she's here with the very latest. So what more are we learning about the plot, about the time line? And where do things go from here?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this is home grown violent extremist who radicalized online by the ISIS propaganda that he may have in touch with somebody from ISIS, that's according to Congressman Mike McCall who spoke yesterday about the topic. One man dead, another arrested. A third man being investigated as well as a group of three people who all met over the weekend to discuss this plot against a prominent individual who we have now learned is Pamela Geller.

Now, it appears that Usaamah Rahim was really the driver of this. That second man that you're seeing David Wright he was arrested - he's been charged with obstruction of justice because he supported the plot. And he also told Rahim once he went operational he needed essentially to destroy his cell phone, and destroy his computer, get rid of a digital footprint whatsoever.

The third man right now, there's very little information coming out of him except that he's from Rhode Island. That now under investigation. Rahim bought three large knives, more than a foot long on amazon.com. One of those knives arrived, it was intercepted by the FBI who x-rayed the package and then had that knife delivered under video surveillance to Rahim.

Rahim for some reason decided very early Tuesday morning that he was not going to come to New York to carry out his plot but instead go after police officers simply because there's so many and so many readily available. When he was confronted by the JTTF just hours after he changed his mind, as speaking to David Wright by phone the officers effectively told him, drop your weapon. He allegedly applied to them, you drop yours.

So right now they are trying to see how big it is. You know, they are calling it ad hoc network, short of different than Al Qaeda conspiracy, but it plays to what ISIS s trying to do what they are trying to accomplish, they are going after people most susceptible and most readily available to carry out these plots which don't require a lot, especially when you think you can order menacing knives.

BOLDUAN: On line. Ad hoc or not, unbelieverable dangerous.

BERMAN: A cell is a cell.

FEYERICK: A cell is a cell and its crazy people how to want to carry out something in the name of terror.

BERMAN: All right.

BOLDUAN: All right. Thank you so much. And coming up at 11:30, a little later this hour, we're going to talk to Boston's police commissioner about really questions about what it stands, where it goes, how serious the threats and how officers knew they had to make their move when they did. Let's continue this discussion.

Let's bring in Robert Spencer, he was with the American Freedom defense initiative as well as the director of Jihad. Robert, you work hand in hand with Pamela Geller. Tell us, when did you become aware of the threat?

[11:05:00] ROBERT SPENCER, AMERICAN FREEDOM DEFENSE INITIATIVE: Well, the way we found out about it as a matter of fact was through CNN. When they contacted Pamela Geller for comment asking her what she thought about being the target of this Jihad terror plot. This was the first she had learned about it. FBI officials had said something was afoot but had not been specific.

However, it has to be said to their credit, they were obviously on the case and they knew this was coming down. And they stopped it from happening. And so even if they didn't fully inform us of all that was going on, they did their job.

BERMAN: The Boston police commissioner essentially said that the thoughts of going after Pamela Geller that was wishful thinking of the real target did intend to be police officers. Nevertheless Robert, you know, you're appearing right now on an undisclosed location but do you fear for your safety?

SPENCER: There's no doubt about it. This is not a joke. This was not wishful thinking in the case of Pamela Geller plot. I can tell you FBI met with her last week and they told her that something serious was a foot. But they didn't give her specifics, now we know what it was. But this was never a joke, was never wishful thinking. He only changed his mind Tuesday morning.

He was actually going to go to New York until the morning he was killed when he attacked the police officers. This was a very real plot. And of course, there are - there's every reason to take seriously threats against Pamela Geller and they said everyone is associated with her. So I take that seriously and take precautions as well.

BOLDUAN: So Pamela said one thing that has stuck out recently I wanted to ask you about. She said that ISIS is here, ISIS is in America and this is war. With that in mind, especially in light of this threat, and the threat you guys have been under, from your perspective, how do you wage that war? How do you fight that enemy? What's your description, if you will?

SPENCER: That we are doing is trying to show what needs to be done in order to win this war, that is show we will not kowtow violent intimidation. They are trying to frighten America into violent submission. They are trying to say you have to do what we say, you have to no do what we want, and if you do not we will kill you. And the main thing is CNN is going along.

BOLDUAN: You have not changed - going forward in light of this threat, you don't change what you guys are doing.

SPENCER: We're never going to surrender and never going to submit. The media is submitting by not showing cartoons and kowtowing to this violent threats and intimidation. That's just the wrong thing to do, because it's only going to encourage more violent threats and intimidation.

BERMAN: Well, we the media side, for example, the media didn't target Pamela Geller. The media didn't attack that conference you had in Garland, Texas. SPENCER: The media targets Pamela Geller all the time, are you

kidding?

BERMAN: The media has Pamela Geller on this morning to talk about this. We are having you on to discuss this today, let's continue to discuss rather than pointing fingers. Pamela Geller, one of the things did is, you have a couple more initiatives in the works. I'm wondering if that's realized here what you were planning going forward.

SPENCER: Well, we're going to be announcing those very soon. And they do involve the cartoons of Mohammed that the media refuses out of fear to show. We are the only ones who are willing to stand and say, we are not going to be frightened and cowed into silence and submission. The Jihadist made the cartoons the flash point. We didn't. The Jihadist made the cartoons the point freedom of speech is being challenged. We do not meet them on that point, freedom of speech as a whole will be lost.

BOLDUAN: Robert, this plot, most recent plot, originated in Boston. Have you guys reached out to the Muslim community in Boston to work on how to engage, gain a better understanding, how to work together to fight extremist views?

SPENCER: The Islamic society of Boston that Usaamah Rahim was a member was also the mosque that was attended by the Tsarnaev brothers, by Aafia Sadiqi, who is doing 86 years in prison for an Al Qaeda plot, by Tarek Mehanna who was doing 17 years for an Al Qaeda plot, by Ahmad Abousamra who was the Islamic state propagandist, who was just recently reportedly killed. It was founded by...

BOLDUAN: Right. But that's not every - every person in the Muslim community is part of that. Right.

SPENCER: The response society needs to be investigated, doesn't need to be partnered with. It needs to be investigated.

BERMAN: You're talking about one group though here just to be clear. You're not saying every Muslim.

SPENCER: That is the group.

BERMAN: That is a group.

SPENCER: But the question is, yes, the question is where are the Muslims in Boston protesting against Islamic society of Boston? Where are the Muslims in Boston saying not in my name, the ISB doesn't represent me. I don't stand for the kinds of things that are obviously being taught in those mosques.

BERMAN: Robert Spencer, we wish you continued safety. We thank you for coming on and we look forward to future discussions with you. Thanks so much sir.

BOLDUAN: Thanks Robert.

SPENCER: Thanks very much.

BERMAN: Coming up for us, other news, the Duggars admit their son molested five girls including his sisters. Why the parents say they held off on reporting it and who they say committed the real crime.

[11:10:00] BOLDUAN: Plus fierce of a massacre forcing dozens of people to leave town as ISIS cuts off a dam. Also now the water supply, cutting off water level, the water level blowing up for terrorist who attack.

And also crime is so bad in Baltimore, police there are asking federal government for help. Police commissioner said there are now enough pills on the streets to keep the city high for a year. But is there more to this crime wave? That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Breaking their silence, the Jim Bob and Michelle Duggars appeared on TV for the first since the story broke that their son Josh confessed to molestation claims. The couple revealed that four of his victims were their daughters, the fifth was a family friend.

BERMAN: They defended their response when they learned of what went on and explained why they ultimately decided to do a reality TV show despite the family's past.

BOB DUGGAR, REALITY TV STAR: This was not rape or anything like that. This was like touching somebody over the clothes. There were a couple of incidents where he touched them under Their clothes. But it was like a few seconds. And then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened.

And it was after that third time he came to us is where we really felt like, you know what, we have done everything we can as parents to handle this in house, we need to get help. We had nothing to hide. We had taken care of all that years before. And when they asked us to do the reality TV show, all this had been taken care of five years before. And we had had a clean bill of health from the state. We had sent them through counseling, he had told the police.

[11:15:00] BERMAN: Joining us now to discuss this is CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin, also with us is Charles Blow, columnist from "New York Times" and survivor of childhood sexual abuse. Charles, I want to start with you.

There is a lot to discuss here. They went to great ends to talk about what didn't happen in their minds. They said it wasn't rape, just touching over the clothes except for a few times when it wasn't, it was under the clothes. Is this important? What do you make of that?

CHARLES BLOW, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: Well, it is important to understand the kind of contours sexual abuse looks like in America. I think that we don't always register the way it happens most often. So forcible fondling, which is what they call what this is technically called is more prevalent than actual rape in childhood sexual abuse cases, slightly more prevalent, in the high 40s, rape in the low 40s in this regard.

But it is also an assault. I don't think people always understand that is also an assault. The other thing that's happening is that, very often it is happening by a family member and happening in the home. Of the people - who - we often think about it being an adult happening to a child, very often an older child. When you look at the data, the one age with the most offenders is not an adult, it's a 14-year-old.

BOLDUAN: That's shocking. That throws me back.

BLOW: Exactly. Half of all victims are under the age of 12. And of that cohort, the one age group with the most victims is 4 years old. And so if this is happening in the home, it is happening minor to minor and the parent is then - in this case in particular is put in the position of saying I have to people that I love. One is a victim and one is an offender. How do I deal with both these people because I love both of them.

That is a very difficult thing for parents. And people don't - and still today we're still talking about this and still not - what should the parent do specifically in this...

BERMAN: So, what is the answer?

BOLDUAN: The difference legal and maybe...

BLOW: Right. I mean, well, one thing, which I think Dr. Drew made a very important point, is professional assessment.

BERMAN: Right away. Not a year later.

BLOW: Not a year later. But parents don't always know that. People think - maybe a lot of people are saying the first step is to call the cops. I would believe - I believe that parents don't always acknowledge the first thing they would do is call the cops.

BOLDUAN: What is the legal discretion and legal responsibility of a parent in a situation like this?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, it is a very hard question to tell you the truth, because it is a crime, a separate crime to know of child abuse and fail to report it. Now, it is rarely prosecuted. It is very rarely prosecuted against parents. But that's indicative of how the law tries to takes it seriously, it is also a crime even for a 14-year-old to abuse a child.

So my instinctual reaction is, you've got to get the cops involved. Certainly you have to get outside professionals, not people who are part of their church. People who have an interest in the daughters and the friends who were victims. I mean, the thing that so offended me about this whole interview was it would seem to me that the parents' concern was all about Josh. How can we help Josh recover. They have crime victims in their family and they seem much less concerned.

BOLDUAN: Let's change that focus then. Let's focus on the daughters, two of the victims, the survivors that have spoken out. We have heard a lot from them but they did speak out and they seemed to share exactly what the parents are saying. They didn't want this report to be released. They are very upset about it. Let's listen to what they say and let's discuss.

JILL DUGGAR, SISTER OF JOSH DUGGAR: People don't have a right to do this. We're victims. They can't do this to us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And yet they did.

DUGGAR: And they did.

DUGGAR: The system was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life and the ones that are affected by those choices. It's just - it's greatly failed.

BERMAN: Once again, we're faced with the legal question here and moral question as well, split into two things. Jeffrey, someone leaked this information. Was it illegal to do so? Can someone get in trouble for putting this information out there to begin with? And then Charles, you are in that position. Do you empathize with the kids, not wanting this to come out.

[11:20:00] BLOW: Right. And I think they are adults now. I'm treading very carefully about how we talk about this in general. Because to some degree they become revictimized every time their name is mentioned on television, every time the case is mentioned on television. And it's not them having the agency over their own story and deciding this is something I want to talk about, something I want to disclose. They may - any victim may or may not want to have a path to legal remedy. That is their choice, though. I think each person who has a sexual assault in their lives deals with that very differently. Some need less and some need more. Some can forgive and (inaudible)some do not. Some will still love the person who did it and hate the thing that they did, and that is a very complicated mix of emotions.

BLOW: It's not entirely up to the victims, though. It reminds me of domestic violence in that we often see the wife, it's usually the wife, saying don't prosecute, don't prosecute. He loves me, I love him. We can work this out. It's worth remembering that domestic violence and child abuse is not just a crime against the individual, it's a crime against society.

BOLDUAN: The community.

BERMAN: Society has a right to say we are not going to tolerate this kind of abuse. So the decision is not entirely always in the hands of the victims.

BLOW: But I advocate for the agency for this reason alone because I am very much advocating for more children coming forth to tell. When people believe that a person they love is going to be dragged out in public, they are less likely to tell. A lot of people do not tell about sexual abuse because they actually have a relationship with the person who abused them and they are afraid of what will happen to them.

BOLDUAN: Wire that in mind, this family chose to do the reality show. So do you think...

BLOW: I don't think you know, the reality - I don't like reality TV at all in general, I just think it's all exploitive. But that said, this idea - those girls didn't necessarily make the decision to be on the reality show. The parents did, whatever. I think that, you know, what I just want to just constantly make space for people to feel comfortable saying this happened to me. There is a way it will be dealt with and I will be respected in the way it is dealt with. I understand what could happen to everyone involved once it is talked about.

BERMAN: Charles Blow, Jeffrey Toobin, thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: Its sad right now.

BERMAN: I have to really deeply uncomfortable discussion to have.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And it's so public right now is why we're having it. Thank you, guys, very much.

BERMAN: Coming up for us, is the United States measuring success against ISIS on a body count. The new back and forth as terrorists take over a dam and start promising to kill people of thirst.

BOLDUAN: Plus is a serial sniper on the loose now. Folks in Colorado are on edge after a third shooting that may be linked to the other. Much more on this ahead.

[11:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. Happening now Iraqis fleeing three towns on the banks of the Euphrates river. The water level is so low that ISIS fighters can walk across and watch attacks.

BOLDUAN: That's right. ISIS militants shut off the gates of the Ramadi dam. This strategy is presenting a major security and humanity threat. Let's bring in CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour. Also the host of CNN International Amanpour, Christiane, always great to have you, especially here. The issue of this dam, it's fascinating and terrifying. Seems an unconventional war and seems an unconventional strategy. What does this say about the evolving methods of ISIS.

CHRISTIANE AMANOUR, CHEIF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ISIS is incredibly adaptable. Obviously a truism. But look what it's doing, every time it does one more thing, all like amazed. It tries to do the dam thing in Mosul, now it's doing it around Ramadi. They want to win by any which Way and they are using this as a military strategy, as you say, perhaps to try to get across dry red. You just hope there's a mosses red sea situation and potentially somehow maybe the dam can then be opened or flooded or whatever.

But it is a two-pronged whammy. One in military terms, one in human terms. Because if indeed, the drought persists after that, there are people downstream affected by the lack of water.

BERMAN: The key word there is strategy. The mere fact ISIS has a long-term strategy and acting it out is interesting and significant.

AMANPOUR: You know, John, this is an absolute thing that we really need to focus on right now. Because there's a lot of rhetoric and a lot of words about who is fighting, who is losing, what about the body count, percentage of territory. ISIS has a strategy and by a lot now of conventional wisdom and accepted consensus, unfortunately the United States strategy and western strategy is not working, no matter what the administration says, there is more and more territory gobbled up. It is true they are pushed back in certain areas. But at the same time they are moving forward with alarming force and alarming rapidity and speed.

You saw what they have done in obviously in Iraq, the Ramadi thing. The United States has not been able to get this Sunni awakening to happen, in that part which is the only thing that saved Iraq from Al Qaeda extremism back in 2007.

BERMAN: But they have been in Mosul for a year.

AMANPOUR: Well, there's no strategy yet and no plan yet to push them out of Mosul.

BOLDUAN: They are confident so they can do it.

AMANPOUR: There wasn't. It was in Ramadi. What's not happened is Iraqi forces, which are supposedly trained for the last year by the United States replenish, rearm, are not ready to take Mosul will the only people on the ground who have been able to do anything in Iraq, of course in Syria a total disaster.

BOLDUAN: A total disaster. On this body count, back and forth on the body count, secretary of state out this morning on CNN defending the fact talking about the 10,000 number. Listen to how he defended and then let's talk about it. Here is Antony Blinken.

ANTONY BLINKEN, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: We had the setback in Ramadi, but it's also very important that people understand that over the course of the last nine months with this coalition coming together, we have inflicted serious damage on ISIS. Keep in mind, part of their strategy is a propaganda strategy. They are trying to tell young impressionable people around the world recruited as foreign fighters they are on the march, they are succeeding, moving forward and we're not. In fact, it's just the opposite.

BOLDUAN: I mean, the body count aside, Antony's reasoning where the fight stands right now. What do you make of it? AMANPOUR: Well, the body count was obviously a mistake and it

was really to bring out and we don't know about it yet and the body count of what assumed kind of thing.