Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Elaborate Prison Break; Pool Party Erupts in Chaos. Aired 11:00-11:30a ET.

Aired June 08, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's coming up right now, At This Hour with "Berman and Bolduan." Starts right now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: An elaborate prison break a desperate manhunt under way right now for two killers. Now, a female prison worker is being questioned. We're going to speak live with two former inmates who spent years at this same maximum security prison.

BERMAN: Police say he had plans to kill cops and behead an activist. Just moments from now for the first time, the public will see the video of his confrontation with police. How close did he come to a kill?

BOLDUAN: And pool party erupts in chaos. An officer now under fire for pulling his gun and his take down of a teenage girl. What happened in the moments before the video started rolling.

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman. New York Governor calls it a crisis situation and you know what that might be an understatement. Right now two killers as savvy as they are ruthless are on the loose, and they have nothing to lose. And now word of a female prison worker, there is word that she is being questioned. The inmates pulled off an absolutely stunning escape from a maximum security prison near the Canadian border over the weekend, and at this moment Governor Cuomo says they could be anywhere.

BOLDUAN: Anywhere he says. Now, prison officials say that, David Sweat and Richard Matt used power tools to get out of their prison cell through the walls and then eventually popped up through a manhole on the other side after going through an elaborate labyrinth, if you will, of pipes and through the facility. There's now a $100,000 reward for their capture. Let's get the very latest on the manhunt and the stunning escape details. CNN's Polo Sandoval is outside the prison in Dannemora, New York. Polo, what's the latest?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John and Kate, good morning. As you just mentioned, these reports being confirmed by at least one law enforcement official to CNN that there is a female prison worker here at the Clinton Correctional Facility that is essentially being questioned as possibly being involved in this very elaborate prison escape that happened Friday into Saturday morning. Beyond that though not much is known, that that source not going

really into great detail about how this female prison worker could have potentially been involved. However, we look back at some of the reports from over the weekend, that these two individuals, David Sweat and Richard Mat used some form of power tools to basically cut their way out of their cell and then access this intricate network of pipes and drains eventually popping up in a manhole cover not far from where I'm standing in at this hour here in Dannemora, New York.

In the meantime, here on the ground I can tell you that what's interesting is that there seems to be a sense of normalcy on the streets of this tiny town. People are still going about their business, driving around, except there are plenty of checkpoints, plenty of road blocks. Police officers, correctional officers, heavily armed are taking a close look inside every vehicle that either makes their way in or out of the neighborhood surrounding the facility.

So clearly, there are reminders everywhere at this hour John and Kate that the search is far from over, from the street corners to the headlines at this hour. This massive search continues, and it's not just here. It's very important that officials really stress to the public at this point that these individuals could be anywhere. We know that Matt is potentially from southern New York, Sweat from western New York. So some of the search being focused on that particular part of the state here, but with the Canadian border only 25 to 30 miles from here, the reality for law enforcement is that these two individuals may have even left the country by now. Guys?

BERMAN: Polo, you bring up a great point. The governor made clear these guys could be anywhere in the country at this point. They could have moved very rapidly if they got their hands on any kind of vehicle, but I wonder if you can describe more what's going on, where you are in that town near that prison. I heard they were going to do some kind of grid search where they really comb over every square inch of territory they can to see if there are any more clues that were left behind.

SANDOVAL: John, yesterday afternoon we were just a few feet from that actual manhole cover that they popped up out of. We did see investigators there crawling into that manhole itself to take a look around to see if there was any evidence that was left behind. Pretty much retracing some of those steps that they made over the weekend, so that would be a very crucial question. What was found underground, what was found near the actual site itself, those pictures that were provided by New York Governor Cuomo's office tell much of the story.

You see the cuts that were made. So that will be extremely crucial. Back on the streets here, John, we have not seen a whole lot of law enforcement going door to door at this point. Many of the efforts are being focused on the streets of this tiny town making sure people are up to speed on the investigation, making sure that they are extra careful. Because as you mentioned, they are savvy, ruthless, and extremely dangerous.

[11:05:00] BOLDUAN: All right. Polo Sandoval, thank you so much. We'll get back to the story in just a few minutes. We've got a lot more to come on that prison break, but let's get you over to Boston. Right now, we've been waiting for a press conference where officials there will be giving us an update and they will be releasing the surveillance video that was been much talked about regarding the shooting, the take down of terror suspect Usaama Rahim. Let's get to that press conference now.

DANIEL CONLEY, SUFFOLK COUNTY MASSACHUSETTS DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Especially after events in other jurisdictions around the country, there's a growing public interest in transparency and accountability when local, state, and federal law enforcement officers use lethal force. As a result we in Suffolk county have put in place a series of policies that far exceed what's required by law.

Few of them are in place in other cities around the country, and, in fact, I'd put them up against any other jurisdiction in the United States. I have assigned this investigation to first assistant district attorney Patrick Hagan who will work closely with assistant district attorney Edmund Zaban, chief of our homicide unit, in directing the investigation.

Together they will work with the Boston police firearms discharge investigation team which draws senior investigators from the Boston Police Department Homicide unit and other specialized units as well as the shooting team from the FBI which came in from around the country after these events occurred. They also have similar specialized training.

All the exacting steps we take in a traditional homicide investigation are brought to bear when police in Boston and in Suffolk county use lethal force. Every scene is processed carefully and canvassed repeatedly. Every piece of evidence is documented and analyzed. Every witness is interviewed. Interviews are recorded. Every step investigators take is memorialized.

If, at the end of the investigation when we meet with the family of the deceased they believe that more witnesses need to be identified that we may have overlooked, we will go out and do that as well. The result is an investigative file that typically runs to more than 1,000 pages with hours of recorded interviews, radio transmissions, and video evidence.

As prosecutors, we then apply the relevant statues and case law to this evidence, and I determine whether criminal charges are warranted against any of the officers involved or whether their actions were justified as a matter of law. This determination is impartial and based solely on the facts and the law. I have nothing but great respect for Commissioner Evans and Special Agent in Charge Lissi, but they do not participate in my analysis or my charging decision in this case or any other.

My office is independent. The investigation is independent, and the charges decision is independent. In every fatal police shooting for more than a decade I have met with the family of the deceased to explain my charging decision in advance of it being released to the media and then release the entire investigative file to them and their attorneys. I will take that step in this case as well.

In addition, in the past as I have done in the past, I meet with leaders in Boston's clergy, youth working community, civil rights advocates, and other community leaders to explain the facts and evidence behind my charging decisions. Again, I expect to take that step in this case.

And finally, I have opened the entire investigative file after the case is resolved for review by you, the news media. I'll take that step in this case as well when this investigation is concluded. Every report, every recorded interview, every second of relevant video will be open for media inspection.

This policy of transparency is unparalleled elsewhere in the country. As those of you from Boston know, we have traditionally released this evidence at the conclusion of an investigation rather than doing so piecemeal, but media and technology have taken communication to an unprecedented level. It becomes easier than ever for rumor, speculation, and inaccurate information to fill the vacuum if reliable facts aren't put out rapidly.

For this reason, we have agreed to release certain video evidence earlier when it can help illuminate the facts and when doing so won't compromise the integrity of the investigation. Procedurally, we have already screened this video that you're about to see to a limited audience. Primarily limited to these folks up to this point for this reason.

[11:10:00] We prioritized the accuracy of interviews of witnesses and involved officers, and we want their accounts to reflect their direct observations. We also want to allow the family of the deceased the opportunity to view the footage at the time of their choosing, not suddenly and without warning on TV or on the Internet.

In this case the critical first witness interviews have been completed. We have also met with Mr. Rahim's family and their attorneys on Thursday evening here at our office, and the funeral as you know was on Friday. We agreed to hold release of this video until sometime over the weekend or on Monday, obviously today is Monday.

So today we're going to release this video to you publicly so that they had some time to process the loss that they have suffered. This sort of evidence may not be available in every single case, and even when it is available, its release may not be appropriate if critical witnesses have not yet been interviewed, if identification is a live issue, or if there is a strong likelihood that this evidence will go to a grand jury or a regular jury.

But making video evidence public is something that we have done in every police-involved fatality where it's been present for more than a decade. We've done that, as I mentioned, at the end of the case, but releasing it earlier reflects our intention to make best practices even better.

When it can inform the public about what happened and why, it's in everyone's best interest to share it as soon as it is possible to tamp down rumors and bad information.

Finally, I want to make this very clear. This video that you're about to see is simply one piece of evidence among many, and this investigation is very active. I haven't made any findings yet or nor have I come to any legal conclusions this is an exact thing process, and it requires careful analysis of all of the evidence in light of state and federal law.

A great deal of work still needs to be done and it will be done, and this process is simply too important to rush. I know that Commissioner Evans and Special Agent Lissi agree on that point, and I'll ask them to say a few words. We'll then play the video and afterwards we'll provide you a link so you can all take it and broadcast it as you wish.

So with that, I turn it over to Special Agent Lissi.

VINCENT LISSI, FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Thank you. Good morning, everybody. As I had noted earlier, Mr. Rahim had been under 24 hours surveillance by the FBI for some period of time. Last Tuesday morning we intercepted a communication that indicated he was about to carry out an attack that day. Not long after that communication was intercepted, Mr. Rahim left his house and proceeded towards a bus stop.

Our agents and the agent and the BPD officers working with us decided for public safety they had to approach him and talk to him before he got on that bus and unfortunately you saw what unfolded from there.

As the district attorney said, the FBI is also carrying out a separate independent investigation of his shooting that day. Beginning last Tuesday we had a team led by our FBI headquarters arrive here and I think 13 people in total showed up to conduct the investigation. Their investigation is geared toward looking at the use of deadly force on the part of our agent and whether or not that deadly force was in conjunction with the Department of Justice policy.

They will complete their report and provide that report to the FBI, the Department of Justice, and the Department of Justice Civil Rights section to determine whether or not the use of deadly force was within the policy and whether or not our agent violated any civil rights.

Again, as the district attorney said, his investigation is completely separate and we respect that. Our agents are cooperating fully with both his investigation and with our investigation. Thank you.

WILLIAM EVANS, BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, and I just want to thank FBI agent in charge Lissi and the district attorney Dan Conley, for all their work. As special agent in charge has said, you know, this was 24/7 surveillance by the joint terrorism task force.

We were continually kept in the loop as far as communication goes leading up to this, and all of us knew, you know, the plot as far as what was unfolding. I think no one could have anticipated what happened that particular morning. Obviously, you know, our officers when you watch the video, obviously you will see and keep in mind they know in their minds the intent of the individual proceeding across the parking lot.

[11:15:00] When they approach him with having no guns, you're going to see the video unfold and quickly see how they are backing up, how the threat became imminent and the results are necessary. So there's obviously a double intent here. You know, there's questions asked about why didn't the officers use any other force? You know, this guy had a malicious intent, and our officers were really faced with that, both the FBI and the Boston.

And the video will speak for itself but I think we averted a serious tragedy on that day and I can't say enough for the great work that the FBI agents and the Boston police did that day to prevent a tragedy and keeping the city of Boston safe. So at this point I'm going turn it over to Pat to show the video, and I'm sure we'll answer some questions afterward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to give some perspective or context as to what we're looking at here. This is a surveillance camera that's a Burger King it's affixed to the Burger King that's next to (Stoney).

BERMAN: Still need to be down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Washington Street. Just again to give you some context and perspective, this is headed inbound on Washington Street towards the Force Hills station up this to this direction is Washington Street headed outbound. The next cross section or cross street is West Roxbury Parkway. We're going to show two separate videos and we can play them back and at a slower pace if necessary, but the first video that you see up on the screen now that I have not yet pressed play, this is the actual original view of the surveillance camera itself.

So there's a significant distance. The second video that we will play for you is an enlarged zoomed invert version of the sequence of events but this time we have a circle as well around Mr. Rahim so you can focus on where he is. Keep in mind when we show the second enlarged zoomed in video, it will become somewhat pixilated. So right now, I'm about to press play, but the individual that you see in the parking lot coming across towards Washington Street circled by the yellow circled that is Mr. Rahim.

So I'm going to hit play and you'll see home come across towards a bus stop area on Washington Street. I'm just pausing the video here just so you're prepared what you will next see is a series of law enforcement officers, FBI agents as well as one Boston police detective, who will come from this area of parked cars here and approach Mr. Rahim.

Just to clarify, the yellow circle is Rahim. I just stopped the video just to clarify the yellow circle is around Mr. Rahim, the yellow circle at least in this video will remain until Mr. Rahim, until the actual shooting takes place and at this point the circle will disappear and reappear after Mr. Rahim is shot.

[11:20:00] I'm going to play the video one more time all the way through without any commentary. At least from the part of Mr. Rahim comes out from behind where the bus stop is. I'll stop the video at a certain part and this is just to point out one clarifying factor.

The two law enforcement officers who discharged is the officer here who appears to be backing up towards the light post and the officer to that immediate left of that officer right here. Mr. Rahim at this point is partially covered by the light post. What you're going to see here as I mentioned is a second video that will be made available for all of you.

This is an enlarged version, a zoomed in version. It will also have a yellow circle that will show you where Mr. Rahim is during the encounter. The video, as you mentioned to you, when you zoom in, it does become somewhat pixilated. That is Mr. Rahim walking now towards the area of the bus stop. This is the approach of law enforcement officers now.

You will also notice a marked Boston police cruiser that also arrives at about the same time to assist in the stop. Just going to play it a little slower now. About a frame at a time. Again, the discharging officers, law enforcement officers are there individual here and this individual here.

Now I'll play the encounter once more in its entirety. You see the officers converging on this one area. You will see the officers retreat back in this direction and I will just play it all the way through.

[11:25:00] EVANS: Lights back on. Someone from the office. Thank you. So that's the video obviously. It speaks for itself. Pat obviously was able to walk you through it so you get a better understanding of exactly what you're seeing. We've viewed it many, many times, as you can imagine.

We can take a few questions now. If you have anything about the lead up into the stop, that would be for Special Agent Lissi, if you talk about the investigation into the death, that would be myself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Evans and Mr. Lissi, was nonlethal force available to these officers and was it ever considered given that you knew he was dangerous but you had him out numbered and you knew he probably only had knives?

EVANS: Well, knowing the intent that we had previous knowledge of, you know, we approached this individual just to question him. No one could have foreseen what unraveled at that point. As you can see, he had shown, a large military knife. Put that in your mind and knowing the prior intent, you know, I don't think at this point we could have. It really came about real quick. I think he was intent as the affidavit says on getting a boy in blue, and I don't think at this point he was going to go down very easy. There were multiple, multiple requests for him to put down that weapon. He was given every chance, and, you know, taking a life is the

hardest thing we do, and that's a decision we'll always have to live with, but I don't believe nonlethal force in this case given what you have seen - you know, it looks like he was well within striking distance of one of the officers with that large military, so, you know, again, that's the D.A.'s final call but I'm very confident, I'm very thankful that none of the agents or my officers were hurt. But you can second guess this, but this unraveled so quickly that, you know, I believe my officers acted responsibly and really done a really dangerous step.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the officers have nonlethal force available to them or not?

EVANS: Well, again, that's part of our investigation, and we don't carry teasers just for the record. You know, that's very controversial issue across the country. There's been some deaths involved in that and whether we go to them or not after this, that's something for discussion, but, you know, again, this unraveled very quickly and I think they made the right call very well. He was intent on taking out somebody and it was either us or them, and thank god none of us were hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commissioner, could they see the knife...

BERMAN: It was either us or them. Those words from Boston Police Commissioner William Evans. He is there with prosecutors and federal law enforcement, too, for the first time the public has seen the video of the takedown last week when law enforcement shot and ultimately killed a man they consider a terror suspect, Usaama Rahim, 26 years old. They say he was plotting to kill police officers, also at one point behead social activist Pamela Geller.

I want to bring in Juliette Kayyem, she's a CNN security analyst for us. She was also a former Homeland Security Official both at a federal level and the Massachusetts level. You are from Boston. We just all saw that video for first time together. We saw this man crossing the street. We saw law enforcement close in on him, then retreat, and then shoot him.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right.

BERMAN: What did you see?

KAYYEM: So there was no retreat. In other words, that the altercation as described by the police, at least what we know so far, is accurate. That there was a lunge. We can't hear anything so I don't know what was being spoken to and that Rahim wasn't shot in the back. Some of the allegations made last week, he wasn't running away.

BERMAN: That was clear. That's the one thing that was clear.

KAYYEM: That is the one thing. The second question which you saw some of the reporters pushing Commissioner Evans on was whether the use of deadly force was justified. I don't think the video answers that. That's why we'll have separate investigations by the FBI and then by DA Conley. There's a second question having to do with lethal force, and there will be separate investigations on the federal and the local level.

BOLDUAN: One thing we had heard when the small - there had been a selected group where we had seen this video 24 hours after it had happened and one thing the folks who had seen it said which we all see ourselves now is that it was very far away. You don't get a very clear look.

BERMAN: You don't even see the knife, right?

BOLDUAN: The only video that they say they have available at this moment, but does something stick out to you in this video? What is striking about it that people need to learn from the law enforcement perspective? What do you see?