Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Community Takes on Cleveland Police; 73 Aviation Workers Linked to Terrorism; Dennis Hastert Arraigned; Rumsfeld Expresses Past Concerns Over Iraq. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired June 09, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Rice was killed while playing in a park with a pellet gun. Officers responded to a 911 call and opened fire within seconds of arriving on the scene.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This video of - a surveillance video. Right there you can see the group of activists and clergy they say that they don't trust the criminal justice system there, so instead of waiting any longer for prosecutors to decide whether to file charges, they are going to go - they want to go directly now to a judge to request that murder charges be brought against the police involved. They are planning a news conference and it's set to get under way at any minute.

Our Martin Savidge has been following this story. CNN Legal Analyst Danny Cevallos is also here with us as well to kind of work through what this all means.

Martin, first to you, what are you hearing from community leaders and what they want to do?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, John. Hello Kate. Well, it's very interesting what they're trying to do here. The question is will it work in their favor and that's yet to be answered. Essentially it's this, that the family of Tamir Rice and those who support them are clearly frustrated that this investigation has been going on for over six months since the boy was shot and killed by Cleveland police, and they had not seen any prosecutorial action. They want to see the officers charged with murder, and they want to see them tried for the shooting death.

So they have found a rather obscure Ohio law that essentially says anyone, any private citizen who knows the facts of the case can go before a judge and argue, state, that there should be charges and that there should be an arrest. This way you go around the police and in some respects you go around the prosecutor. It can be done. Can it be done in a case of this high nature? No one is really sure at this particular point. That's why we're waiting to hear what the results of the press conference will be.

However, you won't totally circumvent the whole grand jury process because under the Ohio constitution, anybody charged with a felony has the right to have their case heard by a grand jury but you could speed a potential arrest of two Cleveland police officers, Kate and John.

BERMAN: So Danny, Ohio is one of the only states where you have sort of this alternative path. Is it likely to work? It seems unusual to say the least.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, people are calling this an unusual law. It's not that unusual in the sense that in most states a private citizen can go make a complaint, for example in Pennsylvania you can file a private citizen complaint. A D.A. then review it is and decides whether to prosecute. But almost every state allows for a citizen to walk in and make a complaint of some kind. What Ohio does that's a little different is it gives the citizen the power to submit an affidavit charging these facts and then it would be reviewed by either a judge, or a prosecuting attorney, or a magistrate.

So there are three options. But under Ohio law a judge does have the power to review that complaint and decide there is enough for charges to be instituted. So it's an interesting sort democratic way to allow a citizen to make a complaint but most states have some sort of mechanism in place to allow something like it.

BOLDUAN: No, and he could still be entitled to a grand jury which then obviously another step in the process. In general though, Danny, it's been more than six months, as Martin points out, that they have been looking into this case, since that young boy was killed. Does that seem like a reasonable amount of time for prosecutors to be still investigating whether charges should be brought against officers? They - three people involved in this. It was the young boy, two officers, and there's video camera. There - and there's footage of it. What's your take?

CEVALLOS: What we're learning about high-profile cases and that includes police-involved shootings, is there are a different set of rules about what is reasonable in terms of length of investigation and what is reasonable in the run of the mill case that is going through - a thousands of these cases going through criminal courthouses every day that go unnoticed by the media.

And generally what I'm finding is that it's more scrutiny that causes more time. Investigators in these cases want to make sure that they get things right and they want to make sure that whatever they conclude stands up to the inevitable scrutiny that will come as soon as it's released if they choose to charge or not to charge officers in these police-involved shootings.

BERMAN: Yes. Scrutiny is coming one way or the other. That is for sure.

CEVALLOS: No matter what.

BOLDUAN: And in that time period still is feeding into distrust that the community already has of the Cleveland police department. Danny, thanks so much. Martin, thank you as well.

Coming up for us, they have access to some of the most secure areas of an airport, planes, tarmacs, and your luggage. So how were more than 70 people

with links to terrorism able to get a job at the airport? How at risk is your security?

BERMAN: And then a statement from the former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that flat out shocked people about the invasion of Iraq sort of a strange second guessing right now in admission from one of the men who planned the invasion.

[11:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: AT THIS HOUR serious new concerns raised about airline safety. A new report reveals the TSA failed to discover 73 aviation employees had links to terrorism. These are employees who worked for major airlines as ramp workers, baggage handlers, and mechanics, and what's worse is the reason why.

BERMAN: Yes. The agency says it does not have access to certain terror information when it carries out criminal background checks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER GROVER, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE, HOMELAND SECURITY AND JUSTICE TEAM: We found in December 2011 that TSA and airports were conducting background checks based on limited criminal history information, specifically TSA's level of access to FBI criminal history records was excluding many state records.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now is CNN Aviation correspondent Rene Marsh. Rene, it's just an outrageous headline. 70 airport workers, TSA workers with links to terrorism. They don't even screen for terror- related issues there. It's crazy.

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, so the problem is that most of these agencies don't open up their entire database to the TSA, so the TSA has to make sure that they are requesting very specific information because their goal is essentially to look for anyone who could be a threat to aviation, and that is all they're concerned with.

So they have to make sure they're asking the right questions of these agencies, and it turns out they were not. Of course, that will be changing, but I'll tell you as we speak, TSA's really taking a beating on Capitol Hill. The Department of Homeland Security Inspector General testifying as we speak, and he said just a short time ago, I'm quoting, although nearly 14 years have passed since TSA's inception, we remain deeply concerned about its ability to execute its important mission, and that's from the inspector general who did this report.

[11:40:00] Of course, this is all on the heels just yesterday a government audit revealed this agency, TSA, cleared more than 70 people with links to terrorism to work at airports across the country, and we're talking about people who had access to commercial planes, to the tarmac, to luggage. This really speaks to the issue of the potential insider threat, and that's why this is so concerning.

BOLDUAN: So concerning, absolutely. I mean, that goes without saying. I mean, it is absolutely scary.

BERMAN: Rene Marsh, thanks so much. There are so many people who glibly know you have to take your shoes off at security but they're hiring people with links to terrorism to TSA, you know, what's the point of taking your shoes off?

BOLDUAN: The left hand doesn't talk to the right from the background check, it's amazing.

BERMAN: Right. 20 minutes off the hour right now. Coming up, democracy in Iraq was unrealistic. You will be shocked who just said that. Donald Rumsfeld, one of the key architects of the Iraq war now questions one of the key decisions made in its aftermath.

BOLDUAN: And allegations of sexual abuse, hush money, and lying to the FBI. The former speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert, is about to make his first appearance in a federal courtroom. What is his legal play? What does everyone expect?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:45:00] BOLDUAN: Former house speaker Dennis Hastert will be arraigned in a federal courtroom today on charges of violating banking laws and lying to the FBI about it. He's hired a high powered attorney also to represent him. Federal prosecutors, they accuse Hastert of agreeing to pay an unnamed person, Individual A, as was described in the indictment $3.5 million to hide past misconduct.

BERMAN: Yes. That conduct is said to be sexual abuse of a former student or students. Now, he's not charged with that exactly. Again, as Kate said, he's charged with lying to investigators about those payments.

Want to bring in CNN's Chris Frates who was at the courthouse in Chicago. Where Dennis Hastert getting a high priced, high profile scandal lawyer.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John and Kate. This is going to be the first time we're seeing Hastert since he was indicted almost two weeks ago. He's made no public statements yet, hasn't been seen publicly and there's a lot of interesting at the federal building in Chicago.

Now, he's hired a high priced Washington lawyer by the name of Thomas Green. He's a guy who has been involved in scandals and investigations in government that you would recognize, Watergate, whitewater, the Iran contra. So he's brought in somebody who understands how to deal with government investigations. And what we're expecting is that this is a pretty short hearing today. It's an arraignment. He will be advised of the charges against him, and he will be expected to plea, to not guilty, guilty, or no contest.

Most of the experts I have talked to, John and Kate, expect that he will probably plead not guilty. That gives him and his team more time to decide how they want to move forward. Are they going to structure a plea agreement. Do they want to take this to trial? So this is the first time we will see Dennis Hastert, see if he or his lawyers have anything to say about the charges against him, which are that he was hiding money, hush money he was paying, ad lying to the FBI about it.

And, of course, law enforcement sources telling CNN that that hush money was paid to a former male student who was alleging sexual abuse. See if he has anything to say on that front as well, guys.

BERMAN: All right, Chris Frates. We should make clear just because he pleads not guilty today, it does not mean that this will end up in open arguments in a courtroom at some point. This is the opening position for Hastert and his team. Chris Frates in Chicago, thank you so much.

All right. Surprising remarks from one of the men who helped lead the United States into war in Iraq. Donald Rumsfeld now says that democracy there was unrealistic.

[11:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We have a stunning comment to tell you about this morning from one of the architects of the U.S. war in Iraq. Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, one of the world's most vocal advocates told the "Times" of London that quote, the idea that we could fashion democracy in Iraq seemed to me unrealistic. I was concerned about it when I first heard those words.

BOLDUAN: Rumsfeld also raised concern that western leaders aren't doing enough to combat extremism like ISIS. His remarks come amid a fierce debate about U.S. and Iraqi efforts to pull together some sort of a strategy to fight ISIS. Joining us to discuss this and much more is Philip Mudd,CNN counterterrorism analyst, former cia counter terrorism official. He advises the National Intelligence Council and the National Counter Terrorism Center.

Phil, it's always great to have you. When you see that headline, it definitely raises your eyebrows. When you hear that from Donald Rumsfeld specifically, it makes you raise your eyebrows even more. So, what do you think?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, you've got to look at what's happened since the so-called Arab spring in 2011. Look at the places where we're struggling with instability - Libya, Yemen, a little bit in Egypt and Iraq. In every one of those situations before the ouster of Saddam Hussein, before the Arab spring. You had strong men who kept society together through strong-arm tactics.

In every one of those situations, when you transition with revolution and try to impose democracy, it exposes divides in society. Sunni versus Shi'a in Iraq. Sunni versus Shi'a in Yemen. There are geographic and tribal divides in Libya.

So I think we had a view in the United States in some ways because we're naive that there' s a quick transition between revolution and democracy and what we didn't understand because in some ways we're an isolated country is that between

revolution and democracy is going to be a huge time period of instability while these people who

don't share common ideas fight it out.

BERMAN: I don't think it's naive to believe in democracy, perhaps, Phil, as you suggest. It's naive to suggest you can implement it very, very quickly.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: But I have to ask you, Phil. You know you were there. You spent time in Iraq. You risked your life in that country. So what do you think when you hear one of the people who helped lead the country into war in Iraq essentially second-guessing a big part of the policy?

MUDD: Well, my first response is, "It's too late now." Humpty-dumpty broke. We're partly responsible for breaking that country so we're partly responsible for helping the Iraqis put it back together.

But you know I was there. Let me step back and say the law of unintended consequences when you're invading countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, you can't assume that the White House regardless of how good the advice they get from people like me or people at the Defense Department or people at State Department, you can't assume that they can look down the road 12 years and say, "We have a crystal ball about how this is going to work out."

I think he's right. I think it was not right to assume that democracy would be a quick solution in a place like Iraq. But I don't blame policy makers. I've been at that table for not figuring out what's going to happen 12 years down the road. That doesn't excuse us. So for today, we have to figure a way out of it today because we're in it with the Iraqis.

BOLDUAN: Now, let's look at a little bit of today. One of the most fascinating things coming out right now is just following last month's raid in Eastern Syria that killed an ISIS figure...

MUDD: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Led to the capture of his wife. They've been interrogating or interviewing her in Iraq since then. One thing U.S. officials are now looking into - U.S intelligence is looking into is the greater role that the wives of ISIS militants are playing in operations and communications than they previously thought because they don't think U.S. intelligence pays as much attention to them.

[11:55:00] BOLDUAN: I find that fascinating. What do you think?

MUDD: I agree with you. When I started after /911 returns CIA from the White House when we're chasing the Al Qaeda guys in Pakistan, they would not have done this. When you have the cat that is Americans chasing the mouse, now for 14 years after that the mouse learns about how to avoid the mouse trap. And in this case, I find it fascinating as well that these guys are

starting to say, "Hey, the Americans don't look at women." This is going to put a lot of pressure on American operations, though, because culturally...

MUDD: Yes.

BERMAN: To bring a woman into detention and interrogation is not entirely acceptable in the Arab world. But they're sending us a signal, that is ISIS saying, "If you want to learn about what we're up to, you have to start questioning the women in the household." We're going to have to figure out how to do that.

BERMAN: And quickly just a few seconds left.

MUDD: Yes.

BERMAN: Do you think it's a reasonable assumption if this intelligence is right that these wives know what's going on?

MUDD: They know something. For example, they might know about hostage operations. When ISIS is holding hostages that are women, they might know who's visiting the household. I don't think they know everything but they know enough to talk to them.

BOLDUAN: That's fascinating.

MUDD: Yes.

BOLDUAN: And what that means especially and how they - we're going to have to adjust...

MUDD: Yes.

BOLDUAN: How the intelligence gather the fascinating concept. Phil, it's great to see you. Thank you so much.

MUDD: Thank you. Take care.

BOLDUAN: All right. Thanks, everybody, for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANSLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: CNN breaking news and Straight to Washington, D.C. to the Catholic Health Association conference where the president is addressing Obamacare.