Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Search for Escaped Killers Intensifies in New York; Disturbing Video Shows Officers Kicking Man as He Sits on Sidewalk. Aired 11:00- 11:30a ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND BOLDUAN" starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news in the hunt for two ruthless killers. Dogs may have picked up their scent. New information just in about where they slept and where they might be right now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, also breaking, new clues about their health. And reports a taxi driver may have spotted them. We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. This is CNN special live coverage.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

BOLDUAN: And I'm Kate Bolduan. We're following breaking news right now. Happening right now, the search for two escaped killers in Upstate New York intensifies as new leads have authorities on the hunt. Sources tell CNN, dogs have picked up the scent of the fugitives, Richard Matt and David Sweat, about three miles from the prison.

BERMAN: Police are urging people to stay inside, they closed schools in the area. There's also new information just in about these men. A source indicates they are no fans of the outdoors, and one might have back problems that potentially requires medication and could affect his movements. Our Jason Carroll is just a few miles from the prison in West Plattsburgh, New York. Good morning, Jason. Give us the latest.

JASON CAROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you. This search well under way. This section of Route 374 has been closed off ever since last night. That is when the suspicious activity was reported. A state official and another source confident that these dogs have keyed in on a particular site where these two men, Richard Matt and David Sweat, may have been holed up and bedding down for a period of time in this rural section near Route 374.

But they believe they found a spot where they were hiding at some point. They believe they found either a boot or a shoe print, food wrappers as well. The big question, of course, John and Kate, how long were they there, when were they there? We can also tell you it is also believed that the material that was found there at the site was material that was there recently, which seems to indicate that perhaps, I say perhaps, Richard Matt and David Sweat were recently at that particular location.

As for now, Route 374 still shut down. It's been shut down ever since last night. That's when New York State Police told residents who are here in this area to stay inside their homes, to keep their doors locked. This is the most significant lead it seems that investigators have had within the coming days, but for now the search for Richard Matt and David Sweat continues. John, Kate?

BERMAN: All right. Jason Carroll for us in West Plattsburgh. Obviously police honing in on that area right now. We will check back in with you, Jason, as developments warrants.

BOLDUAN: And the developments are really coming in. Let's talk more about this and what all is happening here with CNN's National Correspondent Deborah Feyerick she's joining us along with Jonathan Gilliam, former FBI Special Agent as well as an Air Marshal and really had done pretty much everything in law enforcement. A lot to discuss here.

So Deborah, you're talking to your sources, you're picking up some more information. Jason talking about some of that detail, dogs picking up a scent. How serious does this lead?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, it's a good lead. Hundreds of leads are coming in, and what authorities are trying to do, is they're really trying to look for patterns in some of these leads because they're trying to isolate those that could pay off.

What we do know is that authorities are working on information that the men - they're not outdoorsmen. They're not trained wilderness survivors. In fact, they don't like the outdoors. We do know that one of them, David Sweat, was taking pain medication for what appears to be some sort of a back problem. That could also be hampering him.

Part of this plot, which was so detailed, so elaborate as you know, was that there was going to be a getaway driver, this civilian prison worker. That woman failed to show up. That means these two are on their own. But think about the area of New York and I just spoke to the former commissioner for Homeland Security in that area who said the problem is these guys got a seven to eight-hour jump. It is a huge area of transit. You've got freight trains that go through. You have truck stops. You've tractor-trailers that could be passing by. They could have jumped on any of those once they realized they had to get out and get away.

So that's one of the big frustrations. While these are really good leads that they found, these wrappers, these guys would have taken whatever evidence they had with them. They wouldn't have left a trail. You could correct me if I'm wrong, but they wouldn't have left that kind of trail, that kind of obvious marker. They don't know when that's from. And so also don't forget, you're dealing with extreme temperatures. The rain that's been so problematic has been wiping away a lot of those little small - small - the footprints, things like that.

So would you head north where you're going to experience a drop in temperature or would you start going south where at least it's going to be warmer and so that's why this is a good clue, but it is not by far, you know, the only.

[11:05:00] BERMAN: Jonathan, let's pick up on some of the other information that Deb and our reporters are getting right now. The idea that one of these men, David Sweat, suffered from back pain, had back problems that may have required medication perhaps, could limit his movements.

Also the information that these are not guys who were outdoorsman or frontier people. I mean, they're not necessarily the type who are rough and ready for the outdoors. How does this - this pieces of information affect the search?

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, it does tell us a lot. Because my biggest fear was that of course they had somebody out there to help them because then that eight hours they had was really - they could have gone anywhere if they had a car. So but the fact that they did not have that help and that the dogs have picked back up on the scent tells - it's a good clue for these cops that are out there searching for these guys because if they are not, as being reported, they're not good in the woods, it's an instant trap then they get out into that area because I said this before, if you don't have help, you have to turn to crime. If you have to steal to food, steal a car, that's going to leave more clues, and if they get themselves too far into the woods they're not going to be able to steal anything because there's nothing there.

BOLDUAN: And this whole - this bit about the dogs picking up the scent I think is so fascinating. Is there a range of - when a dog picks up a scent in your experience, when a dog picks up a scent it means they've been there in the last 24, 48 hours or less and how does the rain as Deb is pointing out. How does rain play into that?

GILLIAM: Well, I think it can go a lot longer with these dogs. The scent can stay there for a long time. In fact, I'm just talking to some guys that are up there, and they are telling me that these dogs are invaluable. And it's interesting how it goes back to the old- school techniques but that's the way a lot of the times that you work these scenes.

BERMAN: And Jonathan, once they have the scent, what can they do with it? If they picked it up can they then follow it? What are the limits to how far they can follow it?

GILLIAM: One of the first things I was told after this occurred is that they didn't have a scent. That really alarmed me because that gave me a little bit of a clue they might have had a car to get in and then disappeared. But the fact they've reacquired the scent tells me that they didn't have a car, and that right there in itself a big thing because that narrows the search base.

BOLDUAN: It does seem there's a bit of two conflicting theories those coming in play. Maybe that just shows how difficult the search is. You have some information coming from your sources that there's been no crimes committed, no burglaries, no break-ins, no carjacking's. That could mean they're still in the area. But you also well point out there are lots of other modes of transportation. They could have jumped on any of them to get out of the area. Does that just show you they don't know yet?

FEYERICK: All of those questions are questions that authorities are dealing with right now. We do know that the woman, the getaway driver, she is cooperating with authorities. No charges have been pressed so far, and one of the reasons is because, look, as long as she cooperates, she's the main link to these individuals.

So the information she's able to provide will hopefully help the authorities. If they arrest her, if they press charges against her, she will obviously get a lawyer. She's in a whole heap of trouble right now because of the help she provided, but we do know that these men are on foot because she didn't show up and they have some supplies, but we don't know how many supplies.

And even though that they found wrappers, we don't know whether it's from the prison commissary. There's no indication of that. So the scent is really good. The other stuff, you know, they've got to drill it down and vet it to see just what it means.

GILLIAM: I'm sure law enforcement is still concentrating outside like in Vermont, and that's the thing. Law enforcement is smart enough to know not to stop looking as soon as they get a better clue, and I would even say double that search size or that search quadrant and make everybody aware in those areas. Because if this doesn't pan out and they're moving you need to be aware in those areas.

BOLDUAN: Comes down to the public then.

FEYERICK: And you have multiple agencies, police in Vermont, the police in New York, you got the Canadian Police. So everybody in that whole area, in that radius, is on high alert. The question is, if they slipped away, that radius is meaningless.

BOLDUAN: That's amazing stuff. Deb, great to see you. Thank you so much. Deb will be coming back with a lot more of your reporting. Jonathan, it's always great to have you. Thank you so much.

Coming up next for us, we're going to speak live with a former co- executive producer of "America's Most Wanted." He knows the finger to and both trying to pick up fugitives who's been on the land for a very long time. Why he says though that these guys won't last long.

BERMAN: Plus, we're going to speak to a former guard from one of the U.S.' Most Notorious Prisons about how these inmates, how were they able to pull off this escape while all those guards were supposed to be doing their jobs.

Also, what about this alleged relationship these two men had with the female prison worker? [11:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. breaking news in the manhunt For two ruthless killers on the loose in Upstate, New York. Investigators tell CNN that dogs have now picked up the scent of Richard Matt and David Sweat within a three-mile radius of the Clinton Correctional Facility where they broke out of six days ago. Dogs have picked up the scent. Investigators have also found food wrappers and maybe even some kind of footprint in that area.

BOLDUAN: It does seem this search is intensifying as we speak. We're also learning more about the men themselves. Sources telling CNN that David Sweat, he was actually taking pain medication for back problems. That could be great information for authorities as they're trying to hunt them down and also that these two killers, that they did not like the outdoors. That's some of the information just coming in to us.

Let's discuss this and much more because they still, though they have more information, they still have not found these fugitives. Our next guest knows a thing or two about hunting down some of the most elusive fugitives. Phil Lerman, former co-executive producer of "America's Most Wanted." Phil, thank you so much for coming on. There is a lot of new information.

We were just laying out these new details from your experience in hunting down fugitives, when you start getting these types of leads, the dogs start picking up the scent, what does that tell you about how close they could be to finding these guys?

PHIL LERMAN, FORMER CO-EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED": Well, we've been saying all along we don't think these guys have the ability to stay out for a very long time. Let's face it, fugitives are not the smartest people in the world. That's how they got to be fugitives in the first place. These two guys, it's not Davy Crockett and the lone ranger you got out there. These are not survivalists. They are going to be in the urban areas.

That means they are going to have to find food, they are going to have to find water and somebody is going to pick them up, somebody is going to see them, they're going to make a mistake if they steal a car, they are going to run a red light, they are going to stop sign, they are not going to wear a seat belt. They're going to make a mistake and the more desperate they get, the more likely they are to make that mistakes. And all we can do is they make it soon enough before somebody gets hurt. That's our big fear.

[11:15:00] BERMAN: Maybe the food wrappers, maybe the food prints, and maybe the fact they left their scent behind, maybe that could be the mistake that ultimately catches them. Let me ask you this Phil, over the last 24 hours there's also been a flurry of leads purer pouring in, as many as 500 as of last night coming in. They maybe took a canoe, there may be a taxi driver in Philadelphia who says he gave a ride to two men. Do leads like this help or do they pull focus from where it might need to be? LERMAN: No. Absolutely. If you're talking to the public, you got to

tell everybody, if you think you saw something, it doesn't matter what it is, you should let the police know. They're professionals. They know how to sort these things out. They are going to check out every lead but obviously they will focus on the best leads first.

The thing the media can do to help here that I'm not seeing enough of is getting those two ugly mugs up there, getting the tattoos up there. Those are the things that will help us Sweat has letters IFB on his right hand. And that's the kind of thing that can give him away. He's going to go steal rob a liquor store or he's going to go buy a hotdog in 7-11 that's a visible tattoo, IFB.

Somebody is going to see that. That's the mistakes they're going to make. Every lead is important, we have hundreds and hundreds of police officers running down these leads. They can run down every one. Anybody who even thinks they saw something should make that call right now.

BOLDUAN: And what do you think? Do you think this at some point - at this point do you think these two men are still together? From all the information coming in from sources, it seems to suggest authorities may believe they're still together though a lot of folks we talked to say the first thing you want to do is separate because it's easier to get away by yourself. What do you think?

LERMAN: I think that it's possible that could go either way. The last sighting we heard was that the two of them were together. I don't think these are the smartest guys in the world. I don't think they're going to make the best decisions. If I had a guess I would think it's very possible they stay together because they can help each other do the robberies, the kind of things they may have to do to stay out there if they can. Our biggest fear, everybody's biggest fear is that they've taken somebody hostage, they've gone into a house, they've harmed somebody to take a car. Those are things that they might be doing together and let's just pray that isn't what's happened so far but that's why this is such an urgent moment.

BERMAN: All right. Phil Lerman, for us, again, that has not happened yet as far as we know let's hope that doesn't happen. And perhaps, they are closing in on these two gentleman, Phil, thanks very much.

LERMAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: The breaking news, of course, is the search perhaps narrowing in on the hunt for these two fugitives. We have new details about the female prison worker who may have had a relationship with these men, who may have backed out of a getaway plan. We're going to speak with a former prison guard who may have information about what goes on behind bars.

BOLDUAN: And also ahead, disturbing video showing officers kicking a man as he sits on a sidewalk. Police say it's what happened moments before that video that may justify the violent takedown. That man and his attorney think otherwise. We're going to show you both videos.

[11:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New allegations of excessive force by police. This time in Orlando, Florida. And once again it is captured on cell phone video. Take a look at this. The video is showing an officer kicking a man repeatedly as he sits on the sidewalk.

BERMAN: The man on the ground is 30-year-old Noel Carter, a Miami area banker. Apparently he had been arguing with a woman outside a nightclub. Now, what he says happened, he says that off-duty cops showed up and escalated the situation. The video here shows him running.

Carter says he was running for his life as police he says pepper sprayed and teased him. Then he told CNN he came to his senses and sat down.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

NOEL CARTER, ALLEGED VICTIM OF POLICE VIOLENCE: And you can clearly see that I sat on the curb. He hovers over me for two seconds and waits for the other officers to approach before he literally stomps me in the head. The other cop comes up and stomps me in the head again and they continue to brutalize me at that point. And literally beat me like a dog in the street.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BERMAN: Beat me like a dog in the street. That's his side of the story. Let's get the other side from Orlando Police Chief John Mina, who is joining us now live. Chief, why don't you tell us what you think happened and why you have chosen not to discipline your officers because you apparently think they did nothing wrong.

JOHN MINA, ORLANDO POLICE CHIEF: Well, first of all, the reason - that's one of the reasons I brought in the Florida Department of law enforcement. In an abundance of caution and to show transparency, we're going to have a third party, independent organization investigate the entire incident from start to finish.

BOLDUAN: So...

BERMAN: Start to finish. Sorry. I mean, you know, investigating start to finish. So does it matter what happened before? The video we see is of these officers kicking a man who doesn't appear to be moving. Does it matter what happened before?

MINA: Well, absolutely. There's a lot more to the story beginning at the nightclub when Mr. Carter was intoxicated, put his hands on a woman. Our officers tried to intervene. There's video and witness statements who say he resisted our officers' efforts, fled the scene, and beyond that he was at one point on top of one of our officers and punched another officer.

BOLDUAN: So what we see in one of these videos is him sitting on the curb. That's the video that obviously a lot of people are pointing to when the officer kicks him while he's sitting on the curb. As Carter's attorney said pretty clearly, said this, the police department is not trained to beat, punch, kick, tease people who are in a passive position. There's nowhere in the training matrix that you will ever see that.

So is it ever OK to kick someone when they're passively - seemingly passively sitting on its curb? Explain why - explain that moment to us from our perspective.

MINA: Well, like I said, that's only a small piece of the picture, and I'm not going to comment until I have the full and complete investigation.

BOLDUAN: The attorney though says you don't need to know the totality of the situation to understand in that moment what was happening right there is wrong. Do you disagree?

MINA: Of course you need the totality of the circumstances. Like I said, this individual - the incident didn't start right there. The individual, Mr. Carter, had fought with officers, punched one of our officers, was on top of one of our officers, fled, had tried to pull out teaser prongs when he was teased. So there's a lot more to the story, but like I said, let's let the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, a third-party, independent do the entire investigation, and all those findings will be made public.

[11:25:00] BERMAN: And, again, I think the totality of the situation here clearly is of interest. People want to know what led up to all of these moments here. Help us understand then in a hypothetical sense, remove it from this case in particular, Because people see videos now and they're all different. It is OK

sometimes you're saying for police to kick a guy like that when he's on a sidewalk or kick a guy who may not be moving?

MINA: It's hard to judge an officer just based on that small snapshot of that video. There's a lot more that goes into it. The officers in this case were extremely exhausted, affected by the pepper spray as well. So like I say, I'm not going not going to comment on that specific situation until the entire investigation is completed.

BOLDUAN: There's clearly a lot of interest now in what comes of that investigation, chief. We hope to discuss it with you.

BERMAN: John Mina, thanks so much, Chief. Appreciate you being with us.

MINA: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. We also have breaking news in the manhunt right now in New York as police authorities from around the country really are searching for two escaped killers. CNN learned this morning that dogs have picked up the scent of these men. They have found clues within a three-mile radius of the prison. Our Jason Carroll is standing by just a few miles from that prison. We're looking at live pictures of it right now. We'll have a report in a few seconds.

BOLDUAN: But first a new high-tech tools is helping Americans with Parkinson's disease. It's changed one woman's life. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Parkinson's is a movement disorder. I was diagnosed in 2003 with Parkinson's. All of your movements and, in fact, everything about your body becomes constricted. For me everything slows down. When I would be walking on the sidewalk, I would feel like I was walking through mud or quicksand.

They have developed an app for Google glass and it consists of a screen and a plastic piece that you put on and they give you visuals to follow. The person who is demonstrating the walk, she's walking in and you walk along with her and then the screen disappears and the music keeps looping while you're walking because walking to music is very helpful because it keeps you in a certain gait and you don't slow down.

DAVID LEVENTHAL, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, DANCE FOR PD: Dance for PD offers free specialized dance classes for people with Parkinson's. All the strategies dancers use to move and to control their movement and maintain balance and control their flexibility, all of those tools can be useful for people with Parkinson's.

As a teacher it's impossible for me to be with each individual student once they leave the studio. Google Glass is in many ways the perfect technology for translating the information that we try to get across in class into people's everyday lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The exercises really are imperative to combat any type of ill health. But with Parkinson's it's literally necessary because of the tendency of the body to constrict, just kind of twist in on itself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)