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Search for Richard Matt and David Sweat Continues; Authorities on the Scent of Escaped Killers in New York; People Inside New York Search Perimeter Told Not to Leave Homes. Aired 11:30 a - 12:00 p ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, authorities, they seem to be on the scent of those two escaped killers in Upstate New York, Richard Matt and David Sweat.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And sources telling CNN just moments ago, it seems to be a strong scent, strong enough they have just set up a new

perimeter around an area, a large perimeter, and inside that perimeter, some kind of bedding or matted down area where they believe these men slept. So let's get right to that scene or near that scene. Our Jason Carroll standing by live up there with these developments just in. Good morning, Jason.

JASON CAROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. And we're right along, John, Route 374. As you know, this is the section that's been shut down. It's been shut down all morning long, and, again, authorities now somewhat confident that they have found enough material at that site that the dogs had keyed in on that these two men, Richard Matt and David Sweat, had, in fact, been there and may have been there recently. They found not only a boot or a shoe print but also a food wrappers, multiple food wrappers.

And based on the condition of the site where the dogs honed in on, they believe that the materials that were found were fresh and that perhaps that these two men were there recently. What leads them to that conclusion, we've been out here for the past several days and it's been raining each night, and so theoretically what they're looking at, the materials they have found, they said those materials are fresh so that leads them once again to believe that these men may have been there recently.

Now, what does recently mean? Could it have been Tuesday, could it have been Monday, could it have been Sunday or last night? That's still unknown. But what is known, this is a very significant lead for them. John? Kate?

BERMAN: All right. Jason Carroll standing by for us live in Upstate New York. Joining us in the studio is Jonathan Gilliam, he's a former FBI Special Agent, also an Air Marshall. Jonathan, this news we're just getting in right now, a new perimeter established. This scent picked up by the dog apparently a strong scent and information they found some kind of matted down area where they believe these men slept.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Right. You know, this is where all the individuals that you have out there looking for them, the hostage rescue team of the FBI. FBI agents, the state and local authorities, you have the Department of Corrections, S.E.R.T. team, almost like their SWAT team. All these people were out there. This is where they really do shine. They know how to quadrant these things off. This new perimeter and they can then go in and actually do a grid search. And locate these two individuals if this is where they at.

BOLDUAN: So we've heard about a grid search before. How does the search change? It seems an urgency maybe right now because they may have a good scent which means a good lead on where these guys were at least very recently. When they are now expanding the perimeter, what are they going to do? Describe that grid search what changes right now?

[11:35:00] GILLIAM: Well, so the good thing when you have a location where you think they may be, it's much easier to have the teams work and search smaller areas so you can do more efficient searches. That's where the grid searches come in. It's basically a large grid when you're searching a large parameter. But right now they're able to really just to a much more focused search.

So they may be trying to come in from 360 degrees in or they may be trying to get online and walk through the actual targeted area. I'm not sure which one that they're doing, but it will be very efficient and very just clean searches as they move through.

BERMAN: Look we don't know for sure if these guys are in this perimeter they have establish there. But it seems to be the strongest lead they have had yet, the strong scent, the matted down bed area. If they are inside here, these men are ruthless killers. I mean, one of them killed a sheriff, one of them dismembered, -

BOLDUAN: His boss.

BERMAN: - his victim, his elderly boss. So if you're one of the guys closing in on them if they're in there, how careful are you being? What are the procedures?

GILLIAM: Well, it's interesting because whereas other people would say careful, we look at a controlled aggression. I'm not saying these officers are going out there just ready to kill, but they know the capabilities of these two individuals. They know how dangerous they may be. So your level as you search through is that you're at a heightened state and you're ready for action.

So really more than careful, they're more aggressive as they move through almost though you're moving through a house where there's a hostage. You don't want to just kind of mosey through there and be careful when you go through. It's called controlled violence of action as they move through these areas. And if they come across these guys, it's like anything else, if they present a weapon, they will use the force that equals that weapon. But if - and the fact that they're willing to kill, you know, can amplify that force. But if the individuals raise their hand, there's no weapon, they can take them down in a peaceful scenario.

BOLDUAN: Well, we don't know exactly what the scenario is right now. We do know that it seems they've picked up urgency and that search has intensified as all the new leads are coming. Jonathan, stick with us. Thank you so much. We'll continue our coverage of this breaking news out of Upstate New York as the hunt is on for those two escaped inmates. We'll be right back.

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BOLDUAN: Breaking news on the manhunt in Upstate New York. The scent from the inmates, a highway shut down, schools closed. Hundreds of officers are on the hunt as the massive effort is under way to track down these two escaped inmates.

BERMAN: Yes. A new perimeter has been set up where dogs are said to have picked up a strong scent of these two men, perhaps they have located an area where they slept. There's some matted down grass and they're investigating right now. It's been six days since Richard Matt and David Sweat broke out. Let's talk about these last six days. We're going to bring in Ted Conover, he was a former corrections officer in New York's Sing Sing prison. Currently a writer of New York Times magazine. Ted, thanks so much for being with us.

TED CONOVER, FORMER CORRECTIONS OFFICER: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: In addition to this flurry of information that's come in literally in the last minutes about the fact there's this new perimeter where they think these guys could, could be, we're also getting new information about Joyce Mitchell, the prison worker, who is now said to be extremely cooperative with investigators. She may have been tapped to drive the getaway car and then got cold feet at the last minute and didn't help out. I think initially a lot of people were surprised this woman, this prison worker would have any kind of relationship at all with convicted killers. But, look, you have worked at these prisons before. You say not so unusual.

CONOVER: Well, it's not. As you can imagine in an all-male institution, to be a woman is a very special thing, and even if you're an ordinary looking woman, you get so much attention, and there are people who will try to game you and take advantage of you. Prison is full of hustlers and make you feel like a beauty queen, and so it happens. It's most often it's men in a women's prison who are officers or women in a men's prison who get involved romantically and get caught.

So I worked at Sing Sing as a journalist actually. I started that way. Twice while I was there my fellow officers were caught and people lost their jobs for fraternizing with prisoners. Part of the training is be careful of this. You don't know these guys. You see them as ordinary people more or less and they're very charming, and some of them are actually attractive and can talk you up. You don't know what they did and, in fact, you're not supposed to know what they did but you have to keep in mind they probably did something really bad. And so you have to be on your guard all the time.

BOLDUAN: Yes, Ted. You talk about the training that they receive. It is like some of the details of how they pulled off this escape are really astonishing. There are some reports just out that they've had access to the cat walks and the catacombs of the facility for about month. They were able to cut through the steel wall of their cell disguising it during the day with a piece of spray painted cardboard. I would guess, and you tell us, the prison guards are trained to keep an eye out for this kind of stuff. How is that possible?

CONOVER: It's the very most basic stuff. The bed check at night, every couple hours you're supposed to tell if they're breathing. Maybe you're an officer who has been there a long time. Maybe you have a second job. Maybe you're a little tired at night and you don't do that all the time, but you'd hope that once in a while over many days or weeks that it must have taken this to happen somebody would have done that. And then all these other questions about simply escape can't happen with somebody attentive there. An attentive person hears steel being cut, smells it...

BOLDUAN: It's a failure on the part of the guards in some regard, you think?

CONOVER: Completely separate from the issue of did they have help, was somebody paying attention.

BERMAN: I was talking to a guy who had served time in Clinton. I talked to him last night. He said, yes you know, sometimes the guards just aren't looking. Sometimes guards get tired. And it just happens and that the inmates know it happens.

[11:45:00] CONOVER: So one of the things you have to guard against in prison is boredom. It's not like TV in the sense most of the time absolutely nothing happens, and so one of the challenges of the job is staying alert and remembering terrible things can happen very quickly. And people in extremely rare occasions can plan this elaborate kind of scheme and get out and so, yes, that's part of it is keeping on guard.

BOLDUAN: And Ted, you also write about the fact that prisons are full of snitches. That's one thing you kind of see in the movies, you see in TV, you hear everyone thinks about, and you say that's absolutely the case. With that in mind, how do you think it's possible these guys pulled this off with someone not snitching on them?

CONOVER: So the only thing I can imagine in that regard is they were in the honor block, and in the honor block are prisoners who regardless of what they've done on the outside have behaved well inside. They haven't been in fights, haven't been caught with contraband, and I can only imagine there's less surveillance in that space than in the general population where a lot of bad stuff is managed by snitches. I mean, that's just a commonplace. And you think where was this snitch during all these weeks when this plot was developing.

BERMAN: The could be victim I talked to last night said there could have been some fear involved, that one of these guys was incredibly scary and perhaps...

BOLDUAN: They both seem completely like lunatics.

BERMAN: Ted Conover, great to have you here with us. Really appreciate it. Fascinating.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Great perspective.

BERMAN: Next, coming up for us, the search for these two killers who escaped from prison. They've been on the loose for six days. Police tracking down a new scent discovered within the last few hours. Dogs picking this up. You're looking at live pictures right now. There is a new perimeter in that search area. We'll take you there next.

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[11:50:00] BOLDUAN: We continue to follow the breaking news out of Upstate, New York. The search for the two escaped inmates, Richard Matt, David Sweat intensifying as we speak. A lot of new information coming in. Some of the most important bullet points that are coming in from authorities to CNN from their sources that dogs have picked up what they believe is a strong scent of the inmates. In an area about three miles from the prison, they found what looks like shoe imprints. They've also found food wrappers in the area and what looks like matted down grass which could be where these men slept. That's all coming as strong clues where they're reorganizing the search area and looking for these men in west Plattsburgh, New York.

BERMAN: Now, people inside this perimeter have been told not to leave their homes. On the phone with us now, Thomas Lasalle, a resident of the west Plattsburgh, New York, area. Thomas, thanks so much for being with us, I understand it has been a very long night for you. A very tense night for you. Describe to us what you've seen and what's going on.

THOMAS LASALLE, TOLD BY POLICE TO STAY INSIDE HOME: Well, right now we have officers placed all down our road about every 100 feet. And they've been here since about 9:00 P.M. last night.

BOLDUAN: And what have they told you?

LASALLE: Last night they told us to go inside and to keep everything locked and that's when my wife left with my two children, and all night these officers sat out in the rain, just every 100 feet watching and this morning he told me that basically this is the end of the search grid and they're pushing this way. This is the only road after all the wilderness with where they're kind of hoping they're going to run out to.

BERMAN: So, Thomas, we understand over the last few minutes we've learned investigators believe the dogs have picked up the scent of these men, a strong scent. They believe there's some indication that perhaps they slept in the area. There was some matted down grass this in that area. Describe to me what is around you. Is this the woods? Is this an easy place to hide if you want to hide? LASALLE: Well, I can tell you right now we went out yesterday

morning. There were three of us. We covered about two square miles back behind my property just peace of mind, you know. We went out there and it took us about five hours just to navigate through that. It is fallen trees, boulders covered in moss. There's no quick way to run through this kind of wilderness.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely not. And I mean, I'm sure it's pretty hard to believe that this is happening at all especially happening with what seems like in your backyard. Are you afraid?

LASALLE: It's very unnerving. I got the shakes. It's a lot of excitement. I imagine so many people must be terrified. They were letting people out this morning early and then it just was locked right down. I've seen a couple civilian cars go by but they've been escorted by state police out of the area. It's a lockdown. There's helicopters everywhere. It's just quite the scene.

BERMAN: Well, hang in there and be safe, Thomas. One of the things we've been told by authorities, they understand the men are not outdoorsmen. These are not people who are campers. Could you survive in that area with where you live right now in the woods if you didn't know how to handle yourself outside?

LASALLE: Boy, out there is pretty tough. You could probably last a couple days but, I mean, like you said, if there's food wrappers and stuff - and there are places shelter. It's a lot of area but there are a lot of camps out there, a lot of, like, lean-tos and some the foliage is so thick that water can't even really get through. There are many downed it's out there they could easily sleep under and be somewhat comfortable. But the mosquitos, the black flies, you know, and the ticks, it's got to wear you down. It's rough stuff. Even as a scout when I was younger. We never even tackled country like that for more than a day or two at a time. And they've been out there five days on the lam, six days now. I can't imagine they've got much left in them.

BERMAN: Thomas Lasalle, we hear a little bit of the tension in your voice. Hang in there. Be safe. Thank you for joining us.

BOLDUAN: Stuck you in the middle it all. His wife and two kids were able to leave before it all locked down and he is stuck right there in the middle of the search.

[11:55:00] BERMAN: All right. The breaking news is that the dogs have picked up the scent, we believe, of the two men, the he escaped killers from the Clinton Correctional Facility. There's been a perimeter set up not far from west Plattsburgh, New York. We'll bring you in the very latest next, including how weather may be affecting the search.

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BERMAN: All right. New developments in the hunt for two escaped killers in Upstate New York. One of these developments the weather could be playing a factor. Let's bring in Chad Myers for the very latest on that. Chad?

CHAD MYERS, METEOROLOGIST: Hey guys. The weather certainly has played a factor. Played a factor in how heavy the rain was at times likely washing the scent away for a while, but now it's been dry for a few hours and that's why they're probably picking up that scent as we speak. Back you up to Tuesday morning. It's raining. It's raining and it's 60. It does stop Tuesday afternoon but then starts again, very heavy rainfall Tuesday afternoon into Tuesday night. Notice the morning low only 62. I know that's cold when you're wet, but a dry day yesterday and then more showers came in overnight. There they are right now 6:00 P.M. tonight into tomorrow and things have drag out. Now 64 currently this hour and the showers have really tapered off. That may be good news in the hunt. Guys, back to you.

BOLDUAN: They could use the help. They're on the scent right now. Chad Myers, thank you so much, Chad. Thank you all for joining us at this hour.

BERMAN: CNN's live breaking coverage of the manhunt for two convicted killers it continues with Ashleigh Banfield right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN's Breaking News.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield.