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At This Hour

Search for Escaped Convicts; Parents Out "Black" NAACP Leader as White. Aired 11:00-11:30a ET.

Aired June 12, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: That an officer saw someone entering the woods on Wednesday near where the dogs picked up the scent prompting officers to set up a perimeter. Of course, we'll continue to follow the story throughout the day.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "At This Hour" with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news a swarm of activity being reported in the hunt for two escaped killers. This, as we learn the female prison worker gave the men hacksaw blades and more.

Plus, is she faking her race? The parents of an NAACP leader say their daughter is White though she says she's Black. I'm going to speak live with those parents about this growing controversy.

And fireworks right now on Capitol Hill. President Obama making a last minute push to save one of his top priorities. But angry democrats are asking, "Where have you been?

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. John Berman is off today. We are following breaking news in the manhunt for two convicted killers. They are now - there's now a word that they are probably still together which has been a huge question. And also this, sources telling CNN, female prison worker, Joyce Mitchell, she gave the fugitives hacksaw blades and even drill bits. The Clinton County District Attorney says, Mitchell will eventually face charges, that's for sure. But also now the search area for the two men appears to be narrowing.

One focus, sandwich shop not far from the prison. Investigators are looking at surveillance tapes from the store for further clues and right now, more than 500 law enforcement officials are scouring neighborhoods and the woody areas in a five-mile area near the prison.

Jason Carroll has been on the ground for us in upstate New York. Developments coming at almost every minute. Jason, what is the very latest that you're hearing from the ground?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Seems like there is a development every day when we're out here. In terms of where we are I know you know, the scene very well. We're right off of Route 374. This is the section that's been shut down. If you take a look behind me, still shut down. You can see a line of cars coming in and out. You've got officials out here checking residents who are coming

out not living, nonresidents into that particular area. Also the, the Saranac Central School District, that shut down classes for the second day in a row. This, as the search continues here in this area, and new information coming in about the possible trail of these two men, Richard Matt and David Sweat, thoughts that perhaps according to what we're hearing about with the dogs were able to find.

They are blood sniffing dogs, Bloodhounds, found a scent of these two men at the Maple fields, a gas station located just about a mile away from the prison. The theory is that perhaps they were there looking for supplies, looking for food, maybe went to the dumpster they are in the process of checking those security cameras to see if there are any new leads at that particular point.

In terms of what's happening here, searchers are continuing to narrow the perimeter just off of Route 374 in the rural area here hoping that perhaps they will be able to find a little bit more clues there. As you know yesterday they found that area where perhaps these two fugitives had been bedded down for a period of time where they found those wrappers, wrappers that seemed to be consistent with the type of wrappers used at the commissary at the prison.

Also finding that fresh boot print as well. So that might be helpful in terms of their investigation. In the meantime, residents very, very, wanting this to end. But authorities asking residents to remain vigilant. These two are very dangerous. The thought is that, the longer they're out there, Kate, the more desperate and dangerous they may become. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. It's an excellent point, Jason, as we're now into day seven here. Jason Carroll on the ground for us. Jason, thanks so much. Let's get some further insight on the tactics used in this manhunt how they are trying to find these men. Joining us now is Bounty Hunter Zeke Unger. Zeke, thank you so much.

As we are just hearing from our reporter on the ground, correspondent on the ground, Jason Carroll says that they strongly believe now that these two men are still together. To me that sounds like it's good news in terms of the chances of tracking them down, but from your perspective, what does it mean?

ZEKE UNGER, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, basically they were in prison together, and they're used to being together. They've escaped together, so, of course, they're going to stay together to have some form of unity together. You know, they didn't disappear, they relocated. I think that law enforcement will be successful probably within the next 72 hours to locate them, especially with the amount of manpower that they have out on this thing.

BOLDUAN: Now, in your experience as the days drag on, we're now into day seven, I mean, how much more dangerous do these guys get to the public? I mean, when you're brought in, you're dealing with them right away. [11:05:00] UNGER: Absolutely. The more time that goes by in

this particular matter, I think they're going to hunker down. They don't have - we believe they don't have resources, so they're going to try to get somewhere where they have food, where they have shelter for a minute so that they can think about what they're doing.

They may change their appearance. The dogs have been semi successful at this point, but I think that the trail is going to go cold here and that we're going to have to wait for them to make a mistake. Law enforcement can make a lot of mistakes, they can only make one.

BOLDUAN: You know, that's an interesting question. You know, it's been seven days, and we're now into the seventh day that they've been on the hunt for these guys. This is much longer than really in at least especially in New York in recent history, that any fugitive has been out there. Is law enforcement doing something wrong do you think? Or are these guys just particularly good or lucky?

UNGER: I don't think that law enforcement is doing anything wrong. I think it's a difficult case. You know, as you can look at statistics, very rarely do people who escape from prison, they're caught relatively quick, but they are caught. So I think that the manhunt is successful. I think that they're doing everything in their power. I think that the means that they have at their disposal with all the sophisticated equipment will assist in this matter.

BOLDUAN: You mentioned the dogs and the fact that you know, that scent could go cold, if you will, at some point. They're also using thermal imaging cameras on helicopters. In your experience how precise and how helpful are those to a search?

UNGER: Well, if you can determine where a suspect is, a lot of times they can thermal image to see who is in there, how many people, but they have to have a location before they can actually use it. Just flying around - now in the wooded areas it helps because it's very sparse and any form of heat will absolutely show an image, but they're going to need to have a location before they can really pinpoint it.

BOLDUAN: And look - I mean you hunt guys like this, you hunt these guys down. Do you think in the end they will be caught?

UNGER: Absolutely. Now, the question will be will they have weapons or not. You know, a lot of times in these cases we see home invasion, we'll see carjacking's, we'll see different types of events where the fugitives are trying to escape. The question is going to be are they going to be able to facilitate weapons in order to shoot it out with law enforcement? That's going to be the question.

BOLDUAN: And you say that they're talking about how the perimeter is narrowing. They've got some strong leads clearly. To you does that indicate they are nearing the end? You said that you think this case could go cold very quickly. How much of a window do you think they have here in this initial kind of really huge effort by law enforcement to find these guys before they get away? UNGER: You know, a lot of times you think you have a perimeter,

and then more investigation, the perimeter seems to not be there as far as the fugitives being where you think they're going to be. So it's really hard to say in this particular matter. Until we get some solid leads. A lot of times we'll start getting phone calls or leads where a home has been broken into, a car has been taken. These are specific leads. Right now they believe they have a perimeter but we're just not sure.

BOLDUAN: Zeke Unger, thank you so much. The hunt is on. Thank you.

UNGER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: So President Obama, he right now is on Capitol Hill trying to save one of his legacy priorities, but the folks that he's trying to convince, democrats right now, and they seem pretty furious with him. You're going to hear why.

Plus, the story that's got everyone talking today. The parents of an NAACP leader say their daughter is White even though she says she's Black.

Next, this leader responds, and I'm going to speak with her parents live.

[11:10:10] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: A surprising controversy is brewing in Washington state about whether the leader of the Spokane Chapter of NAACP has been lying about her race, pretending to be Black when she's actually White. There's two photos of her. This is Rachel Dolezal as a girl. And now, she identifies herself on a city job application as being White, Black and American Indian and she has built a career on her racial identity as a Black woman.

She even teaches African-American culture at Eastern Washington University. But take a look at her birth certificate provided to us by her parents. They are both Caucasian. When a local TV reporter confronted Dolezal about her ethnicity, this is how she respondent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you African-American?

RACHEL DOLEZAL, HEAD OF THE LOCAL CHAPTER OF NAACP: I don't, I don't understand the question.

BOLDUAN: The city of Spokane, Washington, is now investigating Dolezal for possible ethics violations. Her parents, Ruthanne and Lawrence Dolezal, are joining me now from Troy, Montana.

Thank you very much for joining me. I think - I want to get your take on all of this. I mean, this story is strange. It just doesn't seem to make sense. You've provided us a birth certificate of Rachel's. You've given us family photos of Rachel. Why is your daughter then pretending to be Black? RUTHANNE DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL'S MOTHER: We can't answer that

question for her. She has not explained to us why she is doing what she's doing and being dishonest and deceptive with her identity.

BOLDUAN: Do you - I mean, this is your daughter though. Why do you think she's pretending?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL, RACHEL DOLEZAL'S FATHER: Well, basically bottom line, we're just saying that we are - we're confirming the truth. We are her birth parents, and we do not understand why she feels it's necessary to misrepresent her ethnicity.

BOLDUAN: Now, this has clearly been going on for a while. When did it start?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: It started kind of gradually, maybe around 2007 or so, but we first heard about her claims to be African-American from a newspaper article from the Spokane, Washington area, and that was the first we knew she was doing it. She has never claimed to be biracial or African-American in our presence.

[11:15:00] BOLDUAN: She's risen to be a leader as we see. I mean, she's the president of a local chapter of the NAACP. She's supposed to be a leader in African-American community in Spokane. Why - you said that the first time you heard about her misrepresenting herself was from a newspaper - when a newspaper article came out. Is that why you haven't spoken out before?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: Well, this newspaper article that I'm referring to was some years ago, but Rachel has not wanted to have contact with us, and so we haven't communicated with her about this.

BOLDUAN: The thing is - go ahead, I'm sorry.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: And we've only - we've only recently been contacted as her birth parents to verify that she is our daughter. We've never been brought into the picture, we've never been asked these questions until now.

BOLDUAN: I mean, this seems to be quite a mess. Do you wish you would have spoken out sooner?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: Well, a lot of people knew that Rachel is White, and for a while, it seemed like she was just doing more of an artistic, expressive representation of her identifying with African- Americans by doing her hair in extensions and things like that.

But when it started to be claims that she was African-American, then as family we didn't, we didn't take the initiative to report her doing that, but there were many other people from her hometown and from the area that knew that she was not African-American, and no one of them spoke up either.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: And they were just puzzled.

BOLDUAN: I think a lot of folks are puzzled. This TV anchor included. When it comes to the family, you said, you haven't talked to her in a while. There's clearly some complicated family dynamics at play here and then you haven't talked to her in a long time. Why is that?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: It's at her request. That's because Rachel has chosen to distance herself from the family and be hostile toward us. She doesn't want us where she is. She doesn't want to be seen with us because that ruins her image.

BOLDUAN: So what's your reaction, Lawrence, when it first came to your attention that she was - that she says she was African-American? What was your reaction?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: We were just puzzled and didn't understand why she felt it was necessary to misstate her ethnicity.

BOLDUAN: Now, you haven't spoken to her by her - on her request. What would you like to say to her now?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: We would tell her that we love her, we care about her. Just be honest. Tell the truth.

BOLDUAN: Ruthanne, do you think she should remain the head of the NAACP there?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: That's certainly is not my decision. I pray that there will be sound judgment on that decision.

BOLDUAN: What do you think, Lawrence?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: Again, it's really the decision that whoever is in charge of the NAACP and the other positions that Rachel may hold, they are the ones that will be responsible to determine if there's any ethics violation, if there's been any gross misrepresentation on her part that warrants a change in her status.

BOLDUAN: Now, it's one thing to have a complicated family dynamic and one thing to have someone want to be different than they are when they were born. That goes without saying, but when someone rises to be a prominent civil rights activist in their state and they're your daughter, that must be tough. I don't want to put an emotion on you guys, but what's going through your mind today?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: It saddens us deeply and it hurts us deeply, yes.

BOLDUAN: Now, you had said when this started, it was back sometime in 2000. Is there any way that - she went to Howard University. Did she attempt to get any scholarships based on race or ethnicity?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: No.

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: No, and her application to Howard University, there was no designation for ethnicity, and because Rachel was coming from Jackson, Mississippi, college because her portfolio of art was all African-American portraiture, they assumed she was Black and only found out she was not after she awarded her a full right scholarship and she was not.

BOLDUAN: And what was - was there any reaction or follow-up to that?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: Well, the way we understood, eyes were popping and jaws were dropping when she walked in to finalize her registration in person.

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: But for that application I do not believe Rachel was deceptive as she has been more recently.

[11:20:00] BOLDUAN: Ruthanne and Lawrence - go ahead. I'm sorry.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: You need to understand that in '95 when she left to go to Bellhaven College in Jackson, Mississippi, she was there when she applied to Howard after graduating from Bellhaven. So they're talking to her from Howard in Jackson, Mississippi, and so she sounds - she's immersed in the American - African-American culture in the community there. She sounds African-American on the phone. She did to us as well, and it wasn't a deceptive thing at that time. That's just who she was.

BOLDUAN: Well, talk to me about your family dynamic a little bit more. As far as I understand it, you can correct me if I'm wrong, you adopted four children, two of those children are Black. You had said, I believe I read in one newspaper account, that you think that that diversity in your family is part of what sparked her interest in speaking out for the African-American community. Do you think that's part of it?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: Yes, I believe that's part of it, although Rachel has always been interested in ethnicity and diversity and we had many friends of different ethnicities when she was growing up. So it didn't start with the four adopted children of color. It was probably that added to her passion.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: And if you see the picture that we've provided at Rachel and Kevin's wedding reception in Mississippi in 2000, you'll see that we actually have all four of our adopted children are Black. Three of them are African-American, one is from Haiti.

BOLDUAN: It is. I'm looking at the picture right now. It is a beautiful family and it looks like you guys have a lot to work through to say the very least while you're daughter is now under investigation for ethics violation because she rose to prominence and maybe very likely according to you guys absolutely misrepresenting who she really is. Ruthanne and Lawrence Dolezal, thank you very much for joining me.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: Thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: Thanks. That is an amazing story. We're going to continue this conversation, and coming up next, we're going to discuss this interview and this controversy and the question, do you need to be African-American to be a leader in the NAACP?

Plus, more on our breaking news. Sources tell CNN the two escaped inmates they are still together and an officer spotted someone entering the woods. We're going to have much more on the massive manhunt in Upstate, New York coming up next.

[11:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Before the break we were talking to the parents of Rachel Dolezal, President of the Spokane Chapter of the NAACP. She is under fire right now for claiming she is Black. You see her here on the left as a girl and on the right the way she looks right now.

The 37-year-old has identified herself on an application with the city as being White, Black, and American Indian. But her parents, as you can clearly see in the interview we just conducted, they're both White and they say she is White as well. I want to broaden the conversation though. Let's bring in Legal Analyst, Sunny Hostin right now for much more on this.

Sunny, this is such a strange story to say the very least. I mean, the parents of Rachel Dolezal themselves say they don't understand it. When they first heard that she was misrepresenting herself, they were puzzled, and they don't even know really - really didn't know about her going forward other than it saddens them. But this is a woman who has risen to prominence as a civil rights activist in Washington based on the fact that she says that she's African- American. What do you make of this?

SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL ANALYST: It's really remarkable, Kate. I mean, I was watching the NBA finals last night, and on Twitter and what we call Black Twitter was just fired up over this story, and I stopped watching the game to get on Twitter and figure out what was going on. So it's something people are talking about all over the country, and I think what's remarkable about it is given the history of African-Americans in this country, what you typically used to see in the '20s, in the '30s, in the '40s were African-Americans who could pass for being White distancing themselves from their families and sort of crossing the line and pretending to be White so that they could get further in this society.

So this is something that is just almost in my view unheard of where you have a White person sort of taking on the struggles of the Black community and self-identifying and acting as African-American. So I think it's pretty remarkable given what's going on in our country today with African-Americans, and it sort of reminds me of the story of Walter White who was the executive secretary of the NAACP in 1931.

He was blond haired and blue eyed. He was African-American or part African-American, and he typically passed for White so that he could sort of go undercover with the KKK and do undercover work and prevent lynching's. And so this is sort of a full circle moment for many people in the civil rights movement that I have spoken to, and many people are talking about Walter you know, White and this sort of passing that's going on. So it's just fascinating. BOLDUAN: Well, look, I think we can all agree that you don't

need to be Black to speak out for African-American community in support of the African-American - African-American. You don't need to be just as much as you don't need to be gay to be able to speak out for gay rights. You don't need to be a woman to speak out for women's rights. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, but the fact that the lengths this person seems to have gone to misrepresent who she is and risen to prominence in the community in that situation, she's now under investigation by the city because of it because she may very likely lied on her application. I mean, so clearly she could be in trouble for this, right?

HOSTIN: That's right. To be part of this sort of I think it's a police oversight board - account board in Washington. And so she very well may be in trouble for that, and I think to your point which is so interesting, you know, all races, creeds, religions, colors, ethnicities have been part of the civil rights movement from the very beginning, and there are members of the NAACP, important members, that are White.