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At This Hour

Change of strategy in Hunt for Escaped Killers; Plot to Attack Super Bowl; Donald Trump Is Running for President. Aired 11:00-11:30a ET.

Aired June 17, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "At This Hour" with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A sudden change of strategy in the hunt for two escaped killers. Plus, a former inmate tells us the do's and don'ts of sex in maximum security.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A plot to attack the Super Bowl, another one targeting New York city. Inside the government's aggressive crackdown now on home-grown terror.

BERMAN: And Donald Trump, presidential candidate and reality TV star, but how close is he to reality? The contentious, complicated relationship between Donald Trump and facts.

BOLDUAN: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman. Just a short time from now, we'll get more answers in the desperate search for two escaped inmate, a search that until now has gone cold. The prosecutor holds a news conference in just about an hour. One of the things that could be released, just seconds ago, we got new photos from the New York State police of what they believe Richard Matt and David Sweat look like now or could look like after ten days on the run. You see their beards more grown in. A little bit more run down. These are the men that the police want the public to be looking out for right now.

Again, these photos just in. As new questions surface concerning about who knew what about the prison break. A CNN source says alleged accomplice Joyce Mitchell told her husband about the inmates' plan and their plot to kill him.

BOLDUAN: But her husband, Lyle Mitchell, his attorney says that his client was kept in the dark and the manhunt now enters its 12th day. The search area for the prisoners is expanding. Polo Sandoval is in Upstate, New York where that news conference is set to be taking place in a just a few short minutes. So, Polo, what are we expecting to hear an update on? Because as we keep saying, the trail has gone cold.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, you know, that's been one of the main concerns here. There just is not enough physical evidence at this point to put investigators in any specific direction. We've seen investigators really take a good look at an area which is about seven to 10 miles away from the Clinton Correctional Facility.

However, yesterday we now learn that they've shift, focus closer to that prison itself. You mentioned those photographs that were just released a few moments ago, the snapshot progression photos that is perhaps the latest attempt by investigators to try to make sure that the public has as much information as they can. You'll see some of that facial hair that they've digitally added to those photographs of Richard Matt and David Sweat.

Again, investigators continue on the hunt. But the reality here, Kate and John, we still don't have any solid idea or at least these investigators don't have any solid idea where these two individuals could be. In a few moments, we do expect to hear from the Clinton County District Attorney, Andrew Wiley, as well as several other high level law enforcement officials.

Now, we do expect an update on the manhunt itself and where it's really focusing on now. But also what's next for Joyce Mitchell, that female prison employee, the only person who is behind bars in connection to this case at this point. The lingering question here, guys, is, how, how much was her husband aware of leading up to that very elaborate prison escape nearly two weeks ago or at least that we can have.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And what more they might be learning from Joyce Mitchell that can try to help as this trail has gone cold and they are now searching into their 12th day for these two fugitives. Polo, is there for us. Polo, thank you so much.

So as details are coming out about Joyce Mitchell and her relationship with the two inmates, there are new questions about how honestly close inmates and guards and prison employees they can really get in that prison environment.

BERMAN: We'll talk about that with one person who knows what life is like on the inside. Michael Alig served 17 years for manslaughter. Some of that time was inside the Clinton Correctional Facility. He was released last year and joins us now.

And Michael, I heard you say this, sometimes these liaisons take place in meat lockers, sometimes they take place in blind spots where other you know, correctional officers can't see what's going on. My question though, is if everyone knows this is happening and it seems like everyone knows this is happening, why isn't more being done to stop it?

MICHAEL ALIG, FORMER INMATE, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: You know, I suppose it's a money issue like everything else. You know, they could stop it if they wanted to. If they had enough money to hire probably more guards to maybe go closer than every, say hundred feet, they go over 50 feet. You know, then there wouldn't be any blindspots. But it's - again the kind of thing that everybody wants to stop it but nobody wants to pay the money to stop. BOLDUAN: From - in your experience, do guards turn a blind eye -

I mean, how much alone time do employee - do prison employees and inmates have?

ALIG: I wouldn't go so far as to say they turn a blind eye. If they saw something like that happening, they would absolutely stop it. But there's just - it's just not possible to be everywhere at all times.

[11:05:05] So there are, you know, there are hundreds of rooms around the facility, a facility the size of Clinton has you know, lots of places to go, meat freezers, storage areas, linen closets, you know, hallways, unused rooms. The counselor's office has you know, unused rooms filled of boxes they used for storage. I mean, it could be anywhere.

BERMAN: Now, we're learning more details about the relationship that Joyce Mitchell eleventh - allegedly had with both of these inmates. And it was over some time. I mean, how complicated - what were the complications be in a prison worker carrying out a relationship over time with a convict?

ALIG: Well, actually, over time, it's going to get easier because you will get - little - learn the, the whereabouts of the inmate and you can even kind of orchestrate things to happen. Like you can have the inmate's schedule changed so that they are doing you know, they have a program at a certain time that's more convenient for you or you know, whatever. I mean, the more time you have, the easier it will be to make happen.

BOLDUAN: And Michael, one thing you said, they can't be watched at all times. But in a maximum security prison, when you're looking - when you're talking about some of the worst of the worst in there, I think a lot of folks would think that inmates are being monitored constantly, 100 percent of the time. No?

ALIG: Well, they're not. I mean, if you - I, I don't know what the ratio is. I think it's something like 100 to 1, you know, officers - inmates to officers. If you're in a super max, it's something like 2 to 1. But Clinton isn't a super max. So you know, they have a little bit more freedom.

BERMAN: Michael, I want to shift gears now to how these guys got out because now there's some discussion about whether there were some kind of distractions that were going on. Maybe other prisoners knew or were banging things, were doing something - does it make sense to you that there were other people inside, other prisoners who would help two guys get out?

ALIG: I mean, it does if they're going to get something out of it. People in prison are generally pretty selfish. And if there's nothing enough for them, they're not going to risk you know, getting in trouble for no reason. So if maybe they made a deal with them, that they are going to go home and maybe smuggle drugs in for them or money or give money to one of their relatives or a friend out in the street, then maybe that would happen. But otherwise, I don't see it happening.

BOLDUAN: What - I mean, you obviously can't know exactly, but what kind of distraction could we be talking about, what kind of distraction could an inmate create if they have?

ALIG: Honestly, it could be anything from pretending - depending on the time of day, if they're out of their cells pretending to fall down the stairs or pretending to have a heart attack, chest pains, chest pains are the one thing that everything stops when an inmate says they have chest pains. Everything stops. They halt all movement and call the infirmary and they come with a stretcher and that's a huge commotion. It takes a lot of officers to you know, make this happen. And it would take 10 or 20 officers off of their - out of their shifts, out of wherever they're standing.

BERMAN: Michael, how much trust is there would you say between inmates?

ALIG: Not a lot. Not a whole lot. Again, it's sort of like you know, the what can I get out of it thing. Generally, people in prison are not very trustworthy. I mean, they're there for a reason, you know. So they know that and they don't trust themselves and so they don't trust other people. You know, it's really kind of "what can you do for me" kind of thing.

BOLDUAN: In terms of the escape, they were warned that they were able to - believed they were able to get out multiple nights, to rehearse their escape. That, that surprises me, the fact that they were able to get out and that they weren't caught by guards. They know that guards...

ALIG: After hours, you mean?

BOLDUAN: Yeah, during the night, they were able to get out, go into these...

ALIG: Well, that surprises me unless they crawled through the hole. Is that what you're talking about?

BOLDUAN: Yes. Exactly.

ALIG: Well, that doesn't surprise me, I mean, if the hole is open. And you know, they would test it. You know, that doesn't surprise me.

BOLDUAN: But still those bed checks, they're clearly not 100 percent...

ALIG: No, they don't. The bed checks, I don't know what they're supposed to be. I think the rule book says every 15 minutes. Not even close.

BERMAN: Did you ever skip a bed check?

ALIG: Did I want?

BERMAN: Did you ever skip a bed check?

ALIG: Are you kidding me? I mean, sometimes they don't check all night long. But generally it's once every three hours or something like that. But I think it's supposed to be at least once every hour, maybe once every 15 minutes if they're really following the guidelines.

BERMAN: OK. Michael Alig, great to have you here with us. We appreciate the insight.

ALIG: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Michael.

BERMAN: All right. Donald Trump in Iowa and New Hampshire. Will these states ever be the same again? He's throwing out more pearls of wisdom. But where does Donald Trump end and the truth begin?

BOLDUAN: Plus, plots against the Super Bowl, against New York City busted. The chairman of the house homeland security committee is joining us on how the U.S. is now getting more aggressive in cracking down on home-grown terror.

And while animals are still terrorizing a city after escaping from a zoo there during catastrophic flooding. Now getting word of a deadly attack by a tiger. We're going to take you there.

[11:10:10] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: His announcement was vintage Donald Trump. But now Trump is doing what presidential candidates do, trying to take his message to the key primary states.

BERMAN: Voters in Iowa and New Hampshire are getting to hear the circumspect, nuanced and delicate proclamations like these.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created, I'll tell you that. Nobody would be tougher on ISIS than Donald Trump. I would build a great wall and nobody build great walls better than me believe me. And I will have Mexico pay for that wall, mark my words.

BERMAN: Mark his words, Donald Trump is almost single-handedly exploding the world of fact-checking. Should those words and Trump in fact even if you're in the same sentence. Glenn Kessler is truly one of the world's best political fact-checkers he joins us from "The Washington Post."

Glenn, thank so much. Let's talk about the larger issues of Trump and fact. Let's rifle through some of the statements he made. Number one, a lot of people up there get jobs, they can't get jobs because here are no jobs, he says. True or false?

GLENN KESSLER, DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT: No, that's false. Actually, the number of job openings hit the highest point since 2000 in the most recent report issued by the labor department.

BOLDUAN: And you went through a lot of other things. Then the other one that stuck out to most everyone including you guys was when he talked about Japan. When did we beat Japan at anything, he asks? They send their cars over by the millions. What do we do? When was the last time you saw a Chevrolet in Tokyo. It doesn't exist, folks. They beat us all the time. Do Chevrolets exist in Tokyo?

KESSLER: Yes, they do. You can see the Tokyo Chevrolet Twitter account, Facebook page. There's - you can see pictures of the store where they sell it. And there were lots of people yesterday tweeting pictures of the Chevrolets they saw in Tokyo.

BERMAN: All right. Let's throw is out there that maybe helps Mr. Trump a little bit. Last week, he said, I read 2300 Humvees, these are big vehicles, he says. They were left behind for the enemy. 2000, you would say maybe two, maybe four, 2300 sophisticated vehicles, they ran, means, the Iraqis, and the enemy ISIS took them.

[11:15:00] KESSLER: Yes, and in that case, he read that article correctly. The Iraqi prime minister said that's how many Humvees they lost in the city of Mosul when ISIS took it over.

BOLDUAN: Now, Glenn, this was a 45-minute kind of rambling speech, everyone can agree on that fact. You guys went through a lot of that. But going forward, you say that Donald Trump is a fact- checker's dream and nightmare. What does that mean to you?

KESSLER: Well, it means that - he's a dream because you know, it's fun to have juicy, interesting facts to, to examine. The nightmare is that his speech was so latent with assertions you know, we were up late last night just going through everything that needed to be fact-checked. So it's certainly going to increase the workload.

BERMAN: It's loose talk. I mean, you know, we have someone here yesterday said it was sort of like the ramblings of someone as they're leaving a bar late at night after a late night of partying. He just says stuff. Do you think he cares whether it's true or not?

KESSLER: Well, I can't get into Donald Trump's mind. I think he - he is certainly a man that likes to make - as seen from your selection there, a lot of statements you know, that promote himself and his brand. And he's used to making these very exaggerated claims.

15 years ago, 20 years ago, I was looking into his claims about his financials. And there wasn't as much there as he always claimed. So, yes, he's like that guy at the art who he's making pontifications. Except, this time, he's actually running for president.

BOLDUAN: Yes. I mean, and what do you do about some of the facts that are just simply uncheckable? The one I keep going back to is, when he says, I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created.

KESSLER: Oh no, that's true. BOLDUAN: Oh, that's the true one? Exactly. That's the true

one. But when you're looking and you've done this for years, and fact-checking political rhetoric, is this - is the Donald Trump addition to the Republican, the Republican presidential race good, helpful or hurtful, do you think?

KESSLER: Well, I think he's going to have to - if he wants to you know, contribute to the debate on the Republican side, he's going to have to be much more factually based. Otherwise, he's going to become a laughingstock. I mean,

that's what you saw and that's what happened with Michele Bachmann who repeatedly ended up with four Pinocchio statements. Even to a point where she asserted I have never made factually inaccurate statement. So you know, for which I gave her four Pinocchio's. So Mr. Trump is going to have careful that he grounds his rhetoric - and you know, closer to reality.

BERMAN: I don't want to disagree with you, because again you can fact check me and say, I'm wrong but I'm not so sure there is a consequence for Donald Trump. I'm not so sure, I mean, he's already being called the most hated presidential candidate ever. People already don't believe him. So how does it matter whether or not these fact checks come out and say he's wrong?

KESSLER: Well, I, I guess so. I was looking at it from the context of what he's contributing to the Republican party. I do think Republicans - the other candidates that are on the stage who might deem themselves as more serious would not be happy to have those kinds of comments or rhetoric associated with the brand they're promoting, the Republican party. So that's, that's the question of whether he contributes.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: That's a good point. They may not like it but they may have to live with it because...

BOLDUAN: And because right now, he would be making it on that debate stage. That's for sure. We'll see. Glenn Kessler, we always follow your work, thanks so much.

KESSLER: You're welcome.

BOLDUAN: Of course. He has got a hard job ahead of him, that's for sure. Coming up for us, a plot to attack the Super Bowl, another one targeting New York City. Inside the government's aggressive crackdown now on homegrown terror.

BERMAN: And then, the psychiatrist who listened to James Holmes before he shot up the movie theater. That psychiatrist takes the stand and reveals what that man told her and why she didn't feel she could stop him from carrying out his attack.

[11:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New this morning, an alleged plot to attack the Super Bowl. And an FBI agent says one of the men connected to the attack on the drama attack in Texas last month also discussed a plot to take on the Super Bowl. This allegation comes out - came out during a court hearing for Abdul Malik Abdul Kareem, he is charged with arming the two men involved.

BERMAN: Michael McCaul, Chairman of the house committee on Homeland Security joins us now from Washington. Mr. Chairman, thanks so much for being with us. And I know this investigation is in its early stages. I know there's not a tremendous amount of information yet. But is there any reason to believe that you've seen that this was a serious threat?

MICHAEL MCCAUL, HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Yes. I believe the suspect had aspirational goals to attack the Super Bowl when it took place in Arizona. He was tied to the two other gunmen in the Garland case. And this is kind of a new threat we're seeing. I just got briefed by the FBI, a new sort of generation of terrorists over the Internet that are being inspired by ISIS out of Syria.

And then they have Twitter followers in the United States that they can activate at any given time with a call to arms to either attack the Super Bowl, to attack a cartoon contest, military installations or in the Boston case, cut the head off of policemen. So this is more, I think, a pervasive threat that's very difficult to stop. I will give FBI and homeland a lot of credit for stopping a lot of these plots.

BOLDUAN: And Mr. Chairman, along those lines when you're listing out those plots, another one the FBI just uncovered, a student arrested for plotting an ISIS-inspired attack on New York City. There were some reports that this student could be trying to plan to bomb the George Washington Bridge. But as you're saying, you give credit to the FBI for stopping these plots. This is also as - we are getting a sense this is part of a larger - aggressive push by the U.S. government to crack down on home-grown terror. But how do they do that?

MCCAUL: Well, through monitoring these Twitter accounts to the extent we can. Kate, a lot of times they will talk on these Twitter accounts and then go into what's called dark space, a secure communication that even if we have a court order, we can't monitor these communications. We've been very lucky so far to stop these plots.

[11:25:00] The one in New York, very serious one. Where - you know, you can learn over the Internet how to make an IED or a non- metallic IED explosive device. That was the case here. And we believe the target was either the bridge as you mentioned or the subway system. And fortunately, we stopped it. There are many of these followers in the United States. We are trying to monitor their communications. But as I point out earlier, a lot of times, they go into a different space that we cannot see.

BOLDUAN: Also, Mr. Chairman, when you talk about national security, one area that you're extremely concerned about is the TSA, is airport and airline and plane security. This, of course, coming in the face of reports that more than 70 employees of airlines and airports had been cleared for work despite the fact that they had connections to terrorism.

You just held a hearing held on this, and in the hearing, the inspector general said that the vetting process for the TSA is akin to Walmart. Nothing against Walmart here but that does seem - that does not inspire confidence. What does that mean?

MCCAUL: Well, no. I mean, this comes on the heels of the 96 percent failure rate with respect to screening. Now we find out there's 73 airport workers that potentially had ties to terrorism and yet they're sort of cleared in the process. But the problem is the sharing of information from the FBI to TSA and the national counterterrorism center. We need to integrate that. We marked up a bill that's going to go to the floor to help secure this gap. But I looked at these ties. I'm getting a further briefing on it. I have personally serious concerns about what these ties are. And I'm going to continue to investigate and look at this issue.

BERMAN: There's one other thing I want to get to. It's not homeland security, per se, it's national security. Getting word that Russia is adding to its nuclear arsenal, 40 sophisticated weapons at least. Are you concerned there's a

new arm's race brewing between the United States and Russia?

MCCAUL: Well, I think Mr. Putin is going back to the good old days, in his words, of the soviet empire. He's trying to reclaim the glory of the soviet empire. And that includes trying to annex Crimea, Ukraine, Baltic States, also a step-up in their nuclear arsenal. And John, actually, we have nuclear - these Russian subs now off the coast of the United States. After the cold war, they left. But under Mr. Putin's regime, they're now back. And that greatly concerns a lot of us in the national security space.

BERMAN: All right. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for being with us. Always great to have your insight at this hour.

BOLDUAN: Thanks so much.

MCCAUL: Thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: Well, let's stay in Washington right now. Let's get over to a live event happening as we speak at the Warner theater in Washington. President Obama speaking at the ceremonial swearing-in for Attorney General Loretta Lynch. Let's listen in.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: So the agent later told Loretta that she probably weren't a threat to America because if she were, her parents would have documented it in some way. That's something I can appreciate as a father.

So Loretta sees the opportunities that her family gave her to build a distinguished life in public service. After Harvard College and Harvard Law School, she rose to become a strong independent prosecutor. Loretta spent years in the trenches, battling terrorism and financial fraud and cybercrime. She went from the Assistant U.S. Attorney's office in the eastern district of New York to Chief of the Long Island, Chief Assistant U.S. Attorney, Long Island in the house. And then U.S. Attorney.

She chased public corruption. She helps secure billions in settlements from some of the world's biggest banks accused of fraud. She jailed some of New York's most notorious and violent mobsters and gang members. She pursued some of the world's most dangerous terrorists and cybercrimes. The law is her matte, justice her compass. She is tough but she is fair, she is firm but kind. Her intelligence and her judgment, her grace under fire have earned the trust and admiration of those she works with and those she serves. And even those she goes up against.

In fact, it's funny that we are installing Loretta today. It's not like she's been waiting around to - you know, for the - for the embossed invitation. She hit the ground running from day one. She's already made her mark here at home and abroad because of her laser focus on the core mission of the justice department. The protection of the American people.