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Interview with Former Clinton CI Inmate; Freddie Gray's Autopsy Leaked. Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET.

Aired June 24, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

BOLDUAN: Of course, you, too. Coming up for us, it's like diving into a shallow pool. The autopsy of Freddie Gray has been leaked. The Baltimore Sun has the details. The autopsy report says he suffered a high-energy injury to his neck and spine most likely in the police van. Ahead, we're going to show you exactly what those transport vans look like and the dangers inside.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And a prison closet with more than a few stories to tell. A former inmate joins us live to tell us what we saw go on between prison worker Joyce Mitchell and the killer David Sweat. Here's a hint, a lot.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: As the manhunt drags on into its 19th day now, the focus still remains on how were these killers able to pull off such a daring escape? Our next guest worked in the same prison shop where many say the elaborate scheme began.

BERMAN: Erik Jansen served nine months at Clinton Correctional Facility alongside David Sweat and Richard Matt and also prison worker Joyce Mitchell. Erik Jansen joins us right now. Thanks so much for being with us. You worked in tailor shop number 3, that was the shop that Joyce Mitchell worked in and that was the shop at the time inmate David Sweat was also working in.

[11:35:00]

ERIK JANSEN, FORMER CLINTON CORRECTION FACILITY INMATE: That's correct.

BERMAN: Describe their relationship.

JANSEN: Their relationship was in simple terms, it would be when the cute guy at high school asks, you know, the girl to the prom. And the look on her face every day when they would get together and they would talk and they would laugh, giggle, conversations all day long. And when they'd go in the back room at the end of the day to count the garments, you know, I never thought anything about it until after this whole thing took place.

BOLDUAN: Oh really? JANSEN: Yes

BOLDUAN: That relationship, the way you described that, was that unusual? Was this happening - were there a lot of interactions between inmates and workers that were like this?

JANSEN: There are interactions but not to that extent where someone would bring in the food for him, bring in tattoo supplies, art supplies, things of that nature. There are relationships in the prison where you get to know an officer...

BOLDUAN: Not like this?

JANSEN: Definitely not like this.

BERMAN: They went into the back room.

JANSEN: Correct.

BERMAN: That's the closet?

JANSEN: That's correct. Well it's where they keep the materials. It's not an actual closet. It's where you can walk in, there's a door on it. And they keep the materials that were completed and the materials that needed to be done.

BERMAN: And Joyce Mitchell and David Sweat were in there alone.

JANSEN: That's correct.

BERMAN: A lot.

JANSEN: Correct.

BERMAN: What did you think was going on?

JANSEN: It was a running joke inside the tailor shop that, you know, that was his boo.

BOLDUAN: His girlfriend?

JANSEN: His girlfriend. You know, she's to always treat him to things. And she always, you know - she had to interact with him because of her job and his job, him being the supervisor of the tailor shop below the civilian. So it was him that always went to the civilian, you know. So I don't know if that's how the relationship started between them just because of his position and him always having to go up and talk to her and then it became more friendly and as things progressed.

BOLDUAN: Look if - a lot of this seems, there's a little, it's a little confusing. And it's also complicated because as we now know Joyce Mitchell's husband has come out and says he does not believe at all that there's a sexual relationship including her and either of these inmates.

JANSEN: Right.

BOLDUAN: Do you think otherwise?

JANSEN: We all thought otherwise, you know. You know, you don't spend that much time with somebody. You don't go into the mess hall. When we went to the mess hall, he'd stay back with her and in the tailor shop, you know - there are certain things that you see and that you can perceive yourself if you were there. You know, I know now there's less speculation...

BOLDUAN: Did you ever ask him about it?

JANSEN: We all did. We all did...

BOLDUAN: What did he say?

JANSEN: He used to laugh. He would never confirm or deny it. Never confirm or deny it. And Dave wasn't one of many words in general. He never really was very outspoken person anyway. He was quiet. The reason me and him bonded so good together was because I'm an artist, he's an artist. And we used to share our artwork. Talk about artwork things. He was very intricate with his details. And that, as you can see, very intricate in the details with this as well.

BERMAN: Are you surprised he's pulled this off?

JANSEN: I'm very surprised. That place is like a fortress. It's a fortress. There's no way you can get out of there without help.

BERMAN: Do you think he was working it?

JANSEN: I believe so.

BERMAN: At that time?

BOLDUAN: You think that was the whole point of his relationship with...

JANSEN: I believe so. I believe so. We played a lot of chess together, me and Dave. And he always said that mentality to always think. He used to whip me on a chessboard.

BOLDUAN: What was his reputation behind bars?

JANSEN: He was respected.

BOLDUAN: You're the first person we really are speaking with that knows him.

JANSEN: Yes. He was respected. He was respected because in that environment, when you're in a prison environment, they judge you by your crime. When you come in, especially in...

BERMAN: He was a cop killer?

JANSEN: Yes.

BERMAN: He was respected?

JANSEN: In there, it's respect because you're all convicts. So that's like the highest level of respect you can get in a prison system. Is if you kill somebody who puts you in the prison system.

BOLDUAN: Did you know Richard Matt well?

JANSEN: I knew Rich, but I didn't know him well. I didn't actually interact with him like that. He was also in the tailor shop as well.

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

BERMAN: The closet, again or this back room...

JANSEN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: Had a view or has a view of the manhole.

JANSEN: Yes, it does.

BERMAN: Tell me about that.

JANSEN: It does. If you actually look - when I've seen it on the television, I got chills because you could see up in the back, the windows above the wall, all those windows that line that whole facility right there are tailor shop windows. And from that work closet, you can - there's a window that looks out over the wall into the street at Dannemore.

BOLDUAN: What went on in that closet? The relationship that you all said was a running joke that everyone kind of knew about, did you ever think about speaking up? Did you ever think about talking to a guard about it?

JANSEN: No.

BOLDUAN: Why not?

JANSEN: I did not think about that because that's in Clinton - Clinton is different. Clinton is - everyday something goes on. When you're outside at that yard, somebody's getting stabbed, somebody's getting cut, somebody's getting into a fight. And if you're a snitch in there...

BERMAN: You're scared?

JANSEN: Yes.

BERMAN: So the amount of information we're getting now about how they got some of the stuff they used to break out, hacksaws smuggled in in hamburger, glasses with flashlights somehow passed on to them. JANSEN: It's amazing how they got it from the tailor shop back

to their cell block.

[11:40:00]

BOLDUAN: Were you in the honor block?

JANSEN: No, I was not. I was in upper age.

BERMAN: Stuff was smuggled in. I'm sure you know, as prison stuff gets into a prison somehow. Are you surprised that that - I mean, a hacksaw in glasses with flashlights. There's really no alternative use for them other than trying to sneak out.

JANSEN: You're trying to escape. You're not going to go looking for something in the dark with those. When you leave the tailor shop, you have to actually go through a metal detector. That's like going when you're getting on an airplane, it's like TSA right there.

They run you through it. If you beep, you got to take your shoes off. If you beep more, you got to take your clothes off. So I don't see how you can get those items through that metal detector.

BOLDUAN: Well as we are learning, it sure sounds like they found a weakness. They found a vulnerability. And that was a person. That was Joyce Mitchell.

JANSEN: Correct.

BOLDUAN: What type of person is Joyce Mitchell? What kind of relationship did you have with her?

JANSEN: I have - I didn't really have a very personal relationship with Joyce. Like I said, she was the head of the tailor shop. David was right under her.

BOLDUAN: So Erik, was there only one person that she seemed to have a personal relationship with, then?

JANSEN: Well she would mingle with the whole - she'll come in, say hi. Sometimes she would bring doughnuts for the whole tailor shop. Stuff like that because we were allowed to bring our coffee down there. We'd bring our coffee down there, we have doughnuts on a break.

We'd all go, usually like six of us, seven of us, at a time, we would go into that back room. You're not supposed to smoke cigarettes inside. But we smoked cigarettes inside, drank coffee, you know, on our breaks.

BERMAN: Would you have ever thought she would be the type of person to facilitate this?

JANSEN: No, never. Never. Never. She was like - she was reminding me, of like a - this was a couple of years ago. But she was still like, like a older, like a grandmother kind of figure. You know, she was older. You know, she was married. I never thought that she would.

BOLDUAN: So in your gut when you hear about this breakout and then you learn that she has confessed to smuggling this stuff in in frozen hamburger meat, what's your reaction?

JANSEN: Wow. Wow. He must have really sold her. He sold her. I don't know with what, but he sold her.

BERMAN: Erik Jensen, a lot of information right there, we appreciate you helping us understand what's going on.

BOLDUAN: Thanks for coming in.

JANSEN: You're very welcome.

BOLDUAN: Thanks Erik.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: OK. A leaked autopsy report says the injury to Freddie Gray was like diving into the shallow end of a pool. Up next, we'll show you the inside of a police transport van and the dangers of not having a seat belt on while inside.

BOLDUAN: And it is a crowded field. But somehow the Donald, Donald Trump, managed to take second place in a new poll in New Hampshire. Is he a more serious candidate than people are giving him credit for?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:45:00]

BERMAN: New information this morning on the death of Freddie Gray. The Baltimore Sun is reporting that his autopsy shows he suffered a high-energy injury, possibly caused by a sudden slowing of the police van that was holding him, sort of kind of what can happen during a shallow water diving accident.

BOLDUAN: Gray's death has been declared a homicide because officers allegedly failed to follow safety guidelines in how they put him into that police transport van. They allegedly put Gray on his belly in the back of the van, did not belt him down and left his ankles and wrists still shackled. All six Baltimore police officers involved have pleaded not guilty to all the charges that they face.

Let's find out what is supposed to happen in these transport vans. What does this all mean? Let's bring in Lieutenant Anton Snead of the DeKalb county police department near Atlanta. Lieutenant, thank you very much. As we've said, this van, this is the focus of what happened to Freddie Gray. This is at the center, really, of the case against these officers.

And the van that you have there, it's the same type of van that Freddie Gray was put into. If you could, give us an idea - and you know how to do this properly - give us an idea of what is supposed to happen when you put someone in the transport van. How are they supposed to be buckled down?

LIEUTENANT ANTON SNEAD, DEKALD COUNTY GEORGIA POLICE DEPARTMENT: Generally when we arrest someone, we put them in handcuffs, we handcuff them in the back, put them in the transport van. Once we get them inside the transport van, we buckle them up. There are five seat belts on each side. So each person that's in the back of the van is actually seat belted that way hopefully there will be no injuries to that person. By seat belting them in, they should be secure.

BERMAN: And if you are not buckled up and if this van somehow stops short, what can happen?

SNEAD: Well, if the van stops, if the person is properly secured, then they should not be able to move around. We do have a subject that we can't buckle in because maybe they're being violent or something like that, what we'll do is generally have a supervisor ride in the back with him to make sure if that person needs any type of medical attention or if that person starts moving around, we got someone to monitor that person so we don't have situations such as that.

BOLDUAN: Really it struck me, lieutenant, that when you were in there, it's a tight fit. This is not a spacious area that you're sitting. It's suggested that Freddie Gray because he was not buckled in may have stood up. If you're buckled properly when you're in there, can you stand up? Can you get yourself in that very fragile position of standing up in the van?

SNEAD: Well, the height of the vehicle is about four feet high. So you're not going to be able to stand up that much at all. But, once again, as I stated, if you are seat belted inside, you will not be able to stand up. But it's only - it's about four feet high, five feet wide and ten feet deep.

BERMAN: When you're driving, when you're driving this van, are you aware of being careful so as not to jostle the people in the back?

SNEAD: Yes. Like I said, basically because the vehicle is not soundproof, if there's any movement, any loud talking, if there's a disturbance in the back, the driver will be able to hear pretty much anything that's going on in the back.

And once again, if the person is secured, then the person should not be able to move around, because not only are they secured with a seat belt, but they're handcuffed in the back. So there's really no way for that person to move if they're properly secured.

BOLDUAN: Lieutenant, thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate your help, for showing us what's supposed to be happening in this police transport vans. And we also want to thank the...

SNEAD: Thank you guys.

[11:50:00] BOLDUAN: Thank you. And we also wanted to thank the DeKalb

county police department for helping us out and helping us understand. That's really an interesting take and shows us what they're looking at in the center of that case against those officers right now. Coming up for us, the power of Donald Trump. The new candidate jumps in popularity, but he says he hates it. Why? We'll talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: This morning, fascinating new information coming out of a key primary state. Did anyone see this coming? Yes?

BERMAN: A little.

BOLDUAN: A little bit. A brand new poll of likely New Hampshire republican voters shows that Donald Trump is rocketing up the presidential field, barely a week after he declared his candidacy.

BERMAN: In New Hampshire, Trump is running second right now. So why? Let's talk with our national political reporter Maeve Reston who is in Manchester New Hampshire. Maeve...

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Hey babe.

BERMAN: Explain this to us.

RESTON: Well, basically Donald Trump is a celebrity, everyone knows who he is and there are a lot of people out there who like his bluntness. They like what he has to say about immigration, they like the idea that you would have a businessman come in and really turn around the economy. And that's the message that he's been trying to send.

But I don't know how real this is, to be honest. That's what we're here to do today is to find the Trump voter in New Hampshire. But it may just be name recognition and this huge splash of publicity. I don't think we know yet how well the Donald wears on people over time.

BERMAN: Interesting. I have been to New Hampshire with Donald Trump and they do seem to like him there, at least a little bit.

BOLDUAN: But also he's keeps - he is the most disliked, unliked candidate in other polls. So.

BERMAN: Let us know what you find out. Maeve Reston, thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: Thanks Maeve.

RESTON: All right. Thanks.

BERMAN: Any minute now we'll get some new answers in the search for the two escaped killers. Police will hold a press conference. A lot of new information just this morning. We'll bring you that news conference live. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: The last painful days of a defining event for the baby boom generation, the Vietnam War, that is the subject of CNN's The Seventies tomorrow night.

BOLDUAN: Vietnam was America's first war broadcast into Americans' homes every night. We talked with the legendary newsman, Dan Rather about his reporting during the conflict and asked if he realized at the time the impact those news reports would have on public opinion of the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN RATHER, FORMER NEWS ANCHOR CBS EVENING NEWS: Early in the war, no. It didn't really dawn on me what impact it was having. But having covered the war and then come back to coverage of the white house and the contrast between what the president of the United States and the white house were saying about the war and what I knew myself having walked the ground and seen the war. It was such a gap that I said to myself, public opinion is beginning to come around and one reason they're beginning to come around is because people do see the war up close and personal.

BERMAN: It's so fascinating, too, because when you talk about Vietnam, particularly as you move on into the '70s, what Americans watched on their TV was withdrawal, retreat, almost, and failure, the vivid images of the helicopters leaving Saigon. Emotionally that was something that America had never had to deal with before.

RATHER: The pictures of the chaos in Saigon, it wasn't just the retreat. This was a disorderly retreat. It was a common thought about this is the United States of America. Perhaps we've lost, but we shouldn't be losing this way. It made a deep imprint on people.

BOLDUAN: And what was the impact on you in seeing that after covering the war and then in '75 with the fall of Saigon. What do you remember thinking at that moment, at that time?

RATHER: I was thinking all those lives lost, all those young men coming back without their limbs or unable to see, all those flag- draped coffins. For what? And I don't think mine was an uncommon thought.

BERMAN: So watch The Seventies Peace With Honor in Vietnam tomorrow night at 9:00 right here on CNN.

BOLDUAN: Thank you all for joining us at this hour.

BERMAN: Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)