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At This Hour

Dash Cam Video of Bland Arrest Raising Questions; Hillary Clinton Facing Problems in Swing States As Trump Heads to Texas Border; FBI's New Information on Chattanooga Shooter. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired July 22, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And on the border, with Donald Trump. The lightning rod candidate announcing a big trip as new polls surface that show Hillary Clinton has swing state problems.

And forget your bank password. Hackers now able to breach a Jeep on the highway, from the dashboard to the brakes. The man who is behind the wheel is joining us.

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. John Berman is off.

Tensions are high over the arrest and death of an Africa-American woman. Dramatic new video of a tense confrontation with an officer raising more questions than there are answers right now. Independent autopsy results could come at any time. Sandra Bland was found dead in a Texas jail three days after being arrested. The confrontation started after Bland refused to put out her cigarette during a traffic stop. That has many questioning whether the 28-year-old woman should have been arrested in the first place. Moments ago, Texas officials denying the footage was edited, that you're looking at here, after critics spotted jump cuts in the video.

We're going to tackle all of the questions raised by the dash cam video as well as surveillance video from the jail where police say Bland hanged herself.

But first, I want you to see how quickly the routine traffic stop spiraled out of control.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: You mind putting out your cigarette, please. If you don't mind.

SANDRA BLAND, DIED WHILE IN POLICE CUSTODY: I'm in my car. Why do I have to put out my cigarette?

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: You can step out now.

BLAND: I don't have to step out of my car.

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Step out of the car.

BLAND: No, you don't have the right. UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Step out or I will remove you.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Step out or I will remove you.

Get out of the car.

BLAND: Don't touch me. I'm not under arrest. You do not have the right to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: You are under arrest.

BLAND: I'm under arrest for what?

(CROSSTALK)

BLAND: For what? For what?

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Get out of the car. Get out of the car!

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: I will light you up! Get out! Now?

BLAND: Wow. Wow. For failure to signal? You're doing all of this for a failure to signal?

UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Get over there.

BLAND: Right, yeah. Let's take this to court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Texas State Senator Royce West joins us now.

State Senator, thank you very much for joining us.

You have been with Sandra Bland's family. You've seen this video. You saw it before it was even released. What do they think, what do you think when you see this arrest video?

STATE SEN. ROYCE WEST, (D), TEXAS: First, Kate, I want to make certain that we offer our condolences to Sandra's family and that America knows there will be transparency as it relates to this investigation.

When I look at the video, obviously, I'm disturbed about the arrest. And that is something that's currently under investigation by the Texas Rangers and other agencies.

BOLDUAN: The trooper involved in this arrest, he's been placed on administrative duty, pending the outcome of an investigation. What have you heard about him? What do you know about him? What do you know about his background?

WEST: I know that he's been with the agency for about a year. In terms of his background, other than that, I don't know a lot about it. And I do know that the agency is taking this serious. And obviously, they have some issues with what transpired there at the scene also as it relates to the, quote, unquote, "arrest."

BOLDUAN: Do you have issues with what happened --

(CROSSTALK)

WEST: Yes, I do. The reality is that -- we tell people all the time, you can't win it on the street. But the officer is supposed to be the professional. That's the person that's gone to class and we've entrusted with being able to be a peace officer and allowed to make decisions of life and death. So they should be in a position to de- escalate situations. The fact of the matter is Ms. Bland was not doing anything illegal when she was smoking a cigarette. And when the officer approached her, he was going to give her a warning ticket, not arrest her. The reality is I fail to see any probable cause or reasonable suspicion that a crime had been committed given the fact the officer made up his mind to give her a warning ticket.

BOLDUAN: We're talking about -- this is the arrest incident we're talking about here. And then there's the many unanswered questions of what happened three days later in her jail cell and why she ended up dead. What are the major questions you have? In everything that you've heard and how close you are now to this case, you've been with the family. What are the big questions that you have in your mind surrounding her death?

WEST: Well, again, I think the same questions of many people across America have. How could a person be in jail and then all of a sudden you have a videotape that showed that no one entered the cell, number one. You've got to make sure that you authenticate that videotape to make certain no one edited that tape. That will be done by the FBI. The question also is, is there any other DNA or physical therapies or fingerprints on that trash bag? Whether those prints anyone, any prints of the employees at that jail, or the DNA matches any employees of that jail. Make sure they explain that. There's obviously been some question raised as to her mental state. Let's make sure we keep the focus on her being in a good place at that time. She had just been told by a university that they were going to offer her a job. She was in a good place before her arrest. Given the fact that she was in a good place, the investigation concerning what took place in that jail needs to continue. And we need to make certain we leave no rock unturned to make certain there's complete transparency in the decision. And the other thing is the district attorney said he's taking this to the grand jury. I would want to make certain that that grand jury is a diverse grand jury made up of individuals of all ethnic groups.

[11:05:53] BOLDUAN: Now, this county, for a lot of folks who don't now Waller County, it has had a long history of racial injustice. The district attorney said that to me last week when speaking with him about this case. Do you trust -- from your perspective, do you trust that the county and state officials can handle this case?

WEST: I trust that the whole team of investigators can handle it. I think you've got to have some duplication of investigation. That's why you allow the local officials to do the investigation. But you also make certain that the Texas Rangers are involved, that the FBI is involved. And that the Justice Department is involved. And then if you take it to a grand jury, you make sure the grand jury is reflective of the diversity of the county. By doing that and presenting the facts, most people will agree with the results of the investigation as determined by the grand jury. But if you have a grand jury that's all white, then people are going to continue to have questions. If you just have local law enforcement officials doing the investigation without some oversight from the FBI or the Justice Department, people are going to have questions. And the district attorney, the county judge, the lieutenant governor of the state of Texas, Sylvester Turner, the chair of the Black Caucus, have all agreed we need to make certain that we have as much transparency and as many agencies involved in this investigation as possible.

BOLDUAN: State Senator Royce West, thank you so much for your time, sir.

WEST: My pleasure.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

Let's continue this discussion. There's a lot to delve into.

I want to bring in former NYPD detective, Tom Verney; as well as "New York Times" columnist, CNN commentator, Charles Blow; and legal analyst, Paul Callan.

Three important aspects to get into what happened here. We heard the state Senator talking, there are a lot of questions still.

Let's start first with the new video out, the arrest video.

Paul, from your perspective, when you see this arrest video, what rights in this traffic stop does this woman have? The cigarette, that moment, that's the key moment. He tells her to put it out. Should she have? Did she have to?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The motto of the Texas state troopers is "Courtesy, service and protection." We don't see much courtesy and we certainly don't see a lot of protection going on in that encounter.

But from a legal standpoint, if she had violated traffic laws, he had the right to stop her. Once he stops her, the law says that for his own safety he has the right to make a subjective determination to have her get out of the vehicle. He may say he wanted her to put out the cigarette because he was afraid she might flick it at him. I don't know what his claim is going to be. But the law allows him to tell her to get out of the vehicle. After that, the situation is muddied. She winds up on the ground handcuffed and I think that's where the problem is going to be for the trooper. BOLDUAN: Tom, there's a lot of protocol questions here. This guy

seems like he's in some sort of trouble. The Texas Department of Public Safety put him on administrative leave. And they said protocol was not followed. What's the big thing that stands out to you? Is it how quickly he went from saying, put the cigarette out, to get out of the car? Another thing raising a lot of eyebrows is how quickly he says, "I'll light you up, I'm going to tase you."

TOM VERNEY, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: This is not your textbook car stop. That's one of the most dangerous jobs the police can do.

BOLDUAN: There's no routine traffic stop.

VERNEY: There's no routine traffic stop because there's a series of unknowns. You don't know if that person is wanted. You're out in the middle of the road. There's risk of being hit by a car --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Put yourself in his shoes as much as you can. What should have happened?

VERNEY: Again, it seems clear the officer was agitated and it also seems clear she was agitated. What I try to advocate to people, you've been pulled over for a traffic violation. Whether you feel the officer is acting professionally or not -- we expect him to act professionally and to act to a certain protocol. If they seem agitated or they're not acting professionally, by you attempting to go it with them is not going to go well for you. I advocate to people not to get in the middle of a wits matching contest with an officer who clearly seems agitated and if you're agitated with him, it's only going down from there. I understand where she's coming from. But I don't want to see someone get dragged out of a car for no reason at all when she could have gotten away with a warning or something.

[11:10:35] BOLDUAN: Charles, what do you make of it? Do you think Sandra Bland was at fault in how she acted in this traffic stop?

CHARLES BLOW, COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK TIMES" & CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it's a bigger question about the incredible amount of discretion that officers have, that you can choose many different directions when you encounter a person that you are encountering and that can be to give a lot of leeway and to be lenient and it can be to be incredibly harsh and all of that can be legally justified. I think the question that we have to ask is, can we get to a point where we stop making excuses for escalation and look for opportunities for de- escalation. And what is afforded the kind of leeway of de-escalation more often than not? The Internet is polluted with videos of people arguing, being hostile, even finding officers who do not take aggressive action back to those people. And that is a discretionary -- they will never get in trouble for not escalating that situation, for not returning that same sort of aggression in kind. And I think that if we are not equally applying that sort of discretion, then it raises questions that people have, particularly in cases like this, where there is a racial discrepancy between the officer and the person who is being encountered. BOLDUAN: Paul, when he says, get out of the car, I'm just hearing

that happen in my ear, as we're looking at this video, he says get out of the car. At that point, does she have to comply? Is that where there is --

(CROSSTALK)

CALLAN: There's been a lot of law in this area where an officer because of the vagaries of stopping a stranger on an open street, if the officer feels for any reason that safety would require the person getting out of the car, he can order the person out of the car. That was a legitimate legal order for him to give. And it appears that she resisted that order.

BOLDUAN: Appropriate to threaten her while she's in the car, with what is assumed is, when he says, I'm going to light you up, he means, I'm going to tase you?

VERNEY: Ideally, you would want the officers to use language that doesn't seem so harsh and threatening. Sometimes people don't listen to that. They listen to what they want to hear or what will trigger them to act. So the officer threatening to use a higher level of force than perhaps physical force by using his taser is what I'm guessing he was getting at, I'm going to light you up, that will get somebody's attention. Maybe I should comply before I get lit up like a Christmas tree.

BOLDUAN: And we're talking -- this is the escalating moment. We're not even talking about really what happened in the jail cell, how this woman ended up dead. There are so many questions surrounding that as well.

BLOW: But there are also questions before you get to that. There are questions about where is the assault on the officer which is the accusation --

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: Because we don't see that part. There's some fumbling in the car. You can see movement in the car when he reaches into the car. I can't figure out exactly what that is. But this is a woman wearing a maxi dress. I have a daughter. Those things are very thin. There's nowhere to hide anything.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BLOW: The level of threat that one could kind of garner from that seems to be -- although there's always the possibility of a physical threat that you can use your hands or the cigarette in some sort of way. We have to get first to the idea of like, where is the assault happening on the officer?

CALLAN: That's the biggest problematic part of this whole thing.

BOLDUAN: Where the assault happened?

CALLAN: Well, where's the arrest? Why is she under arrest and being put in this cell in the first place? I think that's where the officer is going to have his biggest problem in this.

BOLDUAN: And then three days later, this woman ends up dead. This story --

(CROSSTALK)

CALLAN: Now you have a murder investigation. That's a whole different cup of tea. That's very, very different.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

Paul, Charles, Tom, thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

[11:14:38] BOLDUAN: We'll continue to wade through all these details as they come out. Coming up for us, just moments ago, Ferguson announcing a new police

chief as the city continues to deal with racial tensions. Will his background help?

Plus, bad news for Hillary Clinton. New polls showing that she has some issues in some key states. And this isn't even talking about with Democrats but Republicans. This, as Donald Trump gets ready to make a very big trip.

And it's the carjacking of the future. At least that's what a lot of folks fear. Hackers able to take over a Jeep, everything from the engine to the dashboard. I'm going to speak live with a guy who is behind the wheel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Some brand-new polls this morning are giving us a whole lot to talk about in the presidential race. Hillary Clinton is facing some problems in head-to-head match-ups in key swing states. A Quinnipiac poll in the swing state of Colorado showing her trailing Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush and Scott Walker. Just look at those numbers. The same poll in another swing state, Iowa, similar results. And take a look at Virginia. Clinton trailing all three, again, of these Republicans.

But what about the non-establishment Republican, if you will? That would be Mr. Trump. Quinnipiac found that Donald Trump's negative rating in those three states is double his unfavorable rating. He's taken a huge hit. In other words, a lot of people don't like Donald Trump in these polls.

Tomorrow, he's set to go to the border with Mexico after making immigration a fiery part of his campaign. Trump taking a Twitter shot at one of his presidential rivals, former Texas Governor Rick Perry, tweeting, tht "Perry did an absolutely horrible job of securing the border. He should be ashamed of himself," says Trump.

Let's talk about all this with our politics reporter, Jeremy Diamond.

Great to see you, Jeremy.

Let's start first with the polls. Then we'll get to the Trump, if you will. When you look at these swing states, Clinton trailing in these head-to-head match-ups in these key three swing states. What does that tell you and what does the Clinton campaign see in this?

[11:20:04] JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yeah. The key number is the fact that people don't find her honest and trustworthy. The majority of people thought she was not honest and trustworthy. That continues to raise questions after e-mails, after the server issue, after multiple issues that Republicans have raised, even going back to Benghazi. The Republicans are going to quickly seize on these numbers. And I think if there's any takeaway from the Quinnipiac poll we saw today, these numbers are good for Republicans, and bad for Democrats. Not just with regards to Hillary Clinton but with regards to Donald Trump, tough hit for him as well in this poll. And Republicans are going to be happy to see that, most of them at least.

BOLDUAN: I would say so. But how do you square that with the other national poll, sticking with Clinton, you talk about this trust deficit. The unfavorable rating, the trust deficit she has. This is a problem we've seen in past polls for her. This really does seem a trend and a trend means a real problem they need to overcome.

DIAMOND: Absolutely. She's going to need to find a way to convince voters to trust her again. That's always a key question in every election, especially presidential elections. Can I trust this person? Would I want to have a beer with this person? Would I want to -- do I believe that this person is going to do a good job for the country ultimately? That comes down to trust. We saw in her interview earlier with Brianna Keilar that she was not as forthcoming as a lot of people expected. A lot of people thought she would really come up and own up to what happened with the e-mails, with her private e-mail server which she protected and released the information that she essentially wanted to, so that's continuing to go to this question of trust. And we're seeing that the Clinton campaign isn't making much of a dent there so far, as far as these numbers are concerned.

BOLDUAN: Jeremy, when we talk about the Trump factor here, you've got two things that are diametrically opposed here. You have the poll where Trump is topping the Republican presidential field amongst Republicans, 24 percent. But then in this Quinnipiac poll, he's the one that really, they describe it as, the biggest losers in the fact that people don't like him and people have not decided how they feel about him yet. His campaign carries on and he's now heading to the border. What can you tell us about that?

DIAMOND: Yeah, I'm going to be with Trump tomorrow at the border. We're going to be checking out what's going on there. He's going to be with some border patrol agents who are going to be showing him the boots on the ground perspective. That's how the border patrol agent who invited him described it to me. But if you want to look at the one thing that is in common between these two polls that is we saw, it's that a lot of people, even though there is a base of support for Trump, there's a lot of people who say they definitely would not support Donald Trump for president. And that's something that he's going to have to overcome, something he says he will overcome. But it's not clear how he can exactly do that.

BOLDUAN: He also says he's going to win the Latino vote. That's something that a lot of folks wonder how he's going to be able to overcome that as well.

Jeremy, thank you very much.

DIAMOND: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us very, very soon, the FBI will be holding a news conference on developments involving the Chattanooga shooter. We're now getting word of new text messages his friends received and also that his uncle is currently in custody.

Plus, Ferguson announcing a new police chief as the city continues to deal with racial tensions. What's his background and, more importantly, what's his first move?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:27:15] BOLDUAN: In moments, the FBI and the U.S. attorney's office are going to be holding a news conference for an update on the Tennessee shooting. This, as we are getting more information on the gunman, Mohammad Abdulazeez. Jordanian authorities are now holding his uncle for questioning. Abdulazeez stayed with his uncle when he visited Jordan back in 2014. Also sources tell CNN that investigators have found writings that show he was unhappy with the U.S. government and its war on terror. Investigators also say they found Abdulazeez conducted Internet searches on martyrdom. Four Marines and a sailor were killed in that attack.

Republican Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn, from Tennessee, joins me from Capitol Hill to discuss.

Thank you so much for coming on, Congresswoman.

REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN, (R), TENNESSEE: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: We are waiting for an update from federal officials. What's the latest that you can tell us that you are hearing about this investigation?

BLACKBURN: What we are hearing is that there was a process of radicalization online. And through the visits to Jordan that probably was taking place. We are hearing about the unhappiness in the writings. We also know that as he had lost jobs and then found new employment, he came to my home county, Williamson County, and worked with a company there. And while there, it is being reported that he found a room on craigslist. And so he knows all of this is helping to piece together the investigation. And what I think is so important about this is that as the American people are watching this investigation unfold, they are saying, you know, this can happen anytime anywhere. This war on terror and these terrorist cells, these individuals that are participating in the terrorist teachings online, they are in communities all across this country.

BOLDUAN: And also, as you mentioned, Congresswoman, the things that are turning up, they're all pointing to a possible motive of terrorism.

BLACKBURN: That's right.

BOLDUAN: And you talk about a process of radicalization. You hear more than a lot of folks do, especially in terms of what's going on, on the ground in Tennessee. Do you think -- are you very confident -- what do you think the motive if there is one clear motive yet behind this horrible attack?

[11:29:38]BLACKBURN: Well, we need to allow the FBI and law enforcement to make that determination. Anecdotally, as you look at this and you read some of the things that were written, you find out about the uncle, enough information there for the uncle to be held in Jordan. And you know that there was a process that was taking place. He was moving to these radicalized ideas. This is all part of the goal of terrorist organizations.