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Dentists Says Deeply Regrets Role in Lion's Death; Confessions from Former Prison Worker Joyce Mitchell; Request Filed to Oust House Speaker John Boehner. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired July 29, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:03] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, outrage growing against the American dentist who killed a beloved lion while trophy hunting in Zimbabwe. Walter Palmer, from Minnesota, says that he deeply regrets his actions.

He says that he didn't know that Cecil was a famous resident and that he was relying on local guides for their expertise as they hunted. People are now flooding Palmer's dental practice -- the Yelp page for his dental practice with bad reviews. And even celebrities are tweeting at him angrily. And it's also spurring renewed calls to ban trophy hunting.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Cecil was a major tourist draw. The African lion was wearing a GPS collar as part of a study. Palmer allegedly paid more than $50,000 for the hunt. He used a bow and arrow to shoot the lion. That didn't kill him. The lion survived another 40 hours until the hunters tracked him down, shot him, decapitated him and skinned him.

Carole Baskin is the CEO and founder of Big Cat Rescue.

Carole, let's start by differentiating trophy hunting and poaching because they are two different things. Explain the difference to us and why that may or may not be a good thing.

CAROLE BASKIN, CEO & FOUNDER, BIG CAT RESCUE: Whenever hunters hunt for a trophy, they always want the biggest, most beautiful lions they can take. That decimates the entire rest of the pride when they do that.

BOLDUAN: When it comes to trophy hunting, there's an argument -- the advocates of it make the argument that big game hunting with this high price that we've laid out that Palmer paid and sometimes the price tag is even higher, hundreds of thousands of dollars for certain types of animals, they say it helps the endangered species, it helps fund conservation efforts. Do you see that evidence? Where do you see that?

BASKIN: No, it's only an excuse that people make in order to justify killing these magnificent animals. It's -- less than 3 percent of that hunting fee ends up in the local economy.

BERMAN: In this case, there seems to be some issue about whether it was really legal trophy hunting. There seems to be a case that these guys may have lured the lion out of the boundaries where it was protected, putting bait on a cart, putting killed meat on a cart, dragging the lion out and shooting it when it was out of the protected territory. If that is, in fact, the case, that would be tantamount, Carole, to poaching.

BASKIN: At least 30 percent of the animals who are shot on legal hunting grounds have been lured out of the illegal areas where these animals live. They can't determine where that lion is. The animals don't know where they're safe. And if food is involved, they're going to go to an easy meal. So the whole idea of trophy hunting is just wrong, whether it's poaching or not.

BOLDUAN: This dentist, he's put out a couple of statements and one of them -- we read it in part -- he says, "I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity that I love and practice responsibly and legally results in the taking of this lion." He said he had no idea that this was the lion that they were hunting. What do you think is the appropriate punishment? What do you say to the doctor?

BASKIN: I just shudder that anybody could point a bow and arrow or a gun at a beautiful animal like Cecil and take that animal's life and try to justify it by saying that they're operating ethically or that it was a mistake that they did that. I think he should face the Zimbabwe courts and be held responsible for his actions. And I think the public has every right to be absolutely outraged that this happened. But the bigger thing is this is happening every day. Cecil was just very well known. And I'm glad that his awful, awful plight has made this so well known.

BOLDUAN: Right now, as it stands, trophy hunting continues to be legal in Zimbabwe. The conversation obviously that's being renewed right now.

Carole Baskin, thanks so much.

BASKIN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Confessions of a prison worker, stunning and sometimes X- rated details from Joyce Mitchell as she explains how she fell for an escaped killer, including the racy pictures and sexual letters she sent.

BOLDUAN: And they've been sitting behind their son in court every day. Now the parents of the Colorado theater movie gunman, James Holmes, are speaking out, saying they had no idea their son was mentally ill. Important testimony in this case ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:37:48] BOLDUAN: The father of Colorado theater shooter, James Holmes, was on the stand for a second day pleading for his son's life. The jury could be in deliberation on Holmes' sentence as early as tomorrow. Yesterday, the father described his son's social awkwardness and isolation but says they never had a clue he was having such violent thoughts. He called him an excellent kid.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: Did you have any idea he was having these disturbing images in his head?

ROBERT HOLMES, FATHER OF JAMES HOLMES: No, had no idea he was having intrusive and disturbing thoughts or anything like that.

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: All right. Do you still love him?

HOLMES: Yes, I do.

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: Why?

HOLMES: Well, he's my son. We always got along pretty well. He was actually an excellent kid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Robert Holmes says his family has a history of mental illness but that he never knew his son was suffering from it.

HLN legal analyst, Joey Jackson, is joining us with the impact of these personal stories.

Holmes has been convicted on all counts. The father is taking the stand saying he had no idea of -- he never thought his son was mentally ill but saying he's an excellent kid, as you heard there. What do you think when you look at the case and you look at the list of people he killed --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: What's the impact of these personal stories?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It's tough. It shows in your question. Hard stuff to talk about when you talk about killing 12 people and injuring 70. There's no question the defense has an uphill battle here. The stories are just so riveting and the nature of what he did is so inhumane. So you put the dad on, of course. It serves a couple of purposed. It humanizes him. He was a person. He was loved by a family. He was a normal kid. He played soccer.

BERMAN: He is loved.

JACKSON: Exactly, John. He is loved. He was a normal child, smart child. They doted on him. He just did everything. And, of course, the father did everything a father could do. He couldn't prevent it, why? Because of this mental illness. And of course, what you have is the prosecution attempting to establish the father was simply disconnected and too engaged with his own life to pay attention to his child.

BOLDUAN: Right.

BERMAN: Such an interesting case. They obviously found him guilty, did not legally insane or not guilty by reason of insanity. BOLDUAN: Right.

BERMAN: But there's a difference between insanity and mental illness.

JACKSON: Big difference, John, yeah.

[11:40:04] BERMAN: Now in sentencing, you have the father talking emotionally about what this kid may or may not have been going through. This is where perhaps you're selling mental illness as its own thing.

JACKSON: I think you have to. Obviously, to your point, big difference between being mentally ill and being insane, as that's defined under the law. Did you know right from wrong? And when you heard the expert testimony, whether it was the experts that testified for the prosecution or the two that testified for the defense --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: A prosecution witness has been on the stand talking about, yes, this guy was mentally ill.

JACKSON: That's right. And the doctors agree he had some schizophrenia about him. But does it amount to what's called legal insanity? Obviously, the jury rejected that. But you can use that as a mitigating factor. But to be clear, yes, it's a death penalty case. Yes, I do believe the jury would be inclined to impose it. But we should talk about also, it's -- in 40 years, Colorado executed one person. It happened in 1997. Certainly, the person deserved it, rape and shooting a person 14 times. That was in 1997. Hasn't happened since that time. And the governor has indicated that he would make it very difficult to do it here. Although, the thing moves forward, there's mitigation, you show baby pictures and family and teachers --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Family photos. And then the next thing is that his mother is going to take the stand. She's described as the disciplinarian, the one involved in the day-to-day lives of the children.

JACKSON: Yeah. That should be very compelling because you have the father, who was the statistician, working hard. The prosecution saying he's disconnected. The mother, to your point, Kate, is involved in his day to day. Interesting to see what the dynamic would be and how he evolved from this person who was so loving and such a beautiful child and loved sports and was normal to this person who he became, which is a convicted mass murderer.

BOLDUAN: Unbelievably hard for the families of the victims to listen and try to humanize the person who did this.

JACKSON: Has to be, yes.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Joey. Thanks so much.

Coming up for us, shocking confessions from a prison worker. What Joyce Mitchell says about her relationship with those two escaped killers. And why they called her husband "the glitch."

BERMAN: Surprise move on Capitol Hill. One Republican lawmaker trying to get rid of House Speaker John Boehner. It's only been tried once before, more than 100 years ago. It didn't work then. Will it work now?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:45:59] BOLDUAN: New this morning, a stunning confession from the woman who helped two killers break out of prison in Upstate New York. A tearful Joyce Mitchell pleaded guilty as part of a plea deal and is now waiting for her sentencing. She told investigators, once they realized she was involved, in graphic detail about her relationship with the inmates, Richard Matt and David Sweat. She admits to sending David Sweat nude pictures of herself, though she also made it very clear in this confession that the sexual relationship she had was with Richard Matt.

BERMAN: She described that in graphic detail, too. According to Mitchell, it was Matt who plotted to kill her husband, Lyle. She was supposed to give him pills to knock him out.

Despite the confession, Mitchell's husband says he still loves her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you standing by her?

LYLE MITCHELL, HUSBAND OF JOYCE MITCHELL: 100 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why?

MITCHELL: I love her. And you guys are just printed nothing but lies.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What kind of lies?

MITCHELL: I have nothing to say to you.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What kind of lies do you think we printed? Do you think the plea was a good idea?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now, Sheila Isenberg, author of "Women Who Love Men Who Kill."

Sheila, we see this, we read the details of this relationship between this prison worker and the two men. We ask why. How could this happen? How could she feel this way? Joyce Mitchell says, "I was caught up in the fantasy, I enjoyed the attention, the feeling both of them gave me, and the thought of a different life." What do you think about that?

SHEILA ISENBERG, AUTHOR: Well, I mean, this happens all the time. It's extremely common, especially in her situation. She worked in the prison. She was exposed to prisoners all the time. And it was sort of inevitable, if she was the type of woman who was given to this type of relationship, that it would happen. I would have to know more about her background. My research showed me that most of the women who get involved in these relationships have had abused pasts. And I thought one thing that Joyce Mitchell is quoted as saying was really very interesting to me in terms of that -- she said, "He treated me with respect, he was nice to me," as if that was extraordinary, as if that was unusual. So that leads me to believe that she is one of those women who had been abused at some point in her life in the past.

BOLDUAN: Some interesting insight. When talking specifically about the sexual relationship that she developed with one of the inmates, Richard Matt, I spoke with her attorney yesterday after the plea deal was announced. And he said to me that he thought it fit into a category of, she could not stop it, making it seem as if she didn't want it to happen, she just couldn't stop it from happening.

Listen to this, Sheila.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN JOHNSON, ATTORNEY FOR JOYCE MITCHELL: I think the things that you're referring to are situations where she was intimidated and in a way forced to do that. It was not a situation that she did voluntarily. And that would have been the defense that would have been raised. But once again, by the plea offer that was made, we sidestepped those issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Is that something you've heard before? Is that something that makes sense to you? Do you believe it?

ISENBERG: Yes. It totally makes sense. But I disagree with what he said in the way he said it. She's quoted as saying, "I didn't really feel I could stop." What happens in this situation is her psychology compels her and forces her to do what she does, to act the way she acts. She really is forced but not in the sense that the lawyer was saying she was forced. The inmate, the prisoner, didn't say to her, "You have to do this or else." She was forced by her own psychology, her own fantasy, her own compulsion, her own psychological need to have this happen. All of the women I interviewed for "Women Who Love Men Who Kill," all said the same thing, "I couldn't help myself. It's as if I fell off the edge of the earth. I fell in love. I couldn't stop, I had to do it." Whatever "it" was. So I do believe she was forced, but again, I don't believe she was forced by him. She was forced by her own mind.

[11:50:] BERMAN: You say "fell off the face of the earth." But something at the end caused her to hold on, to cling to reality, to not pick these men up in her car and drive away after they broke out. Anything you can sense in what she has now written and revealed that explains to you, in the end, what stopped her?

ISENBERG: Well, probably a little bit of reality peeked its way through. Everything up until then was on target with what we see with women who love men who kill, the fantasy, the excitement, the romance, the thrill. In her case, it was so thrilling, there were two prisoners, it was a planned escape, everything was absolutely thrilling and exciting compared to her ordinary, humdrum, dreary life, marriage, working in the prison, family, going along from day to day. I think what may have stopped her at the end perhaps was just a momentary vision of reality, and that gave her a panic attack, which, as you know, is a physiological reaction, which took over everything else, and she was out of control, basically.

BERMAN: Sheila Isenberg, thanks so much for being us with. Appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: It's amazing when you read that confession. If she had gone through with the plan they laid out, how absolutely different would we be talking about?

BERMAN: I think she'd be dead. I think she'd be dead.

BOLDUAN: That's what her attorney thinks, too.

BERMAN: I think she'd be dead.

All right, 51 minutes after the hour. A rift in the Republican ranks as one lawmaker tries to oust House Speaker John Boehner. Does he have enough votes to do it? We'll speak to a Congressman who said, yeah, he'd back the motion. He wants Boehner out, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:55:38] BERMAN: Happening now, something that hasn't happened since 1910 when William Howard Taft was in the White House. A request has been filed to oust the House speaker. Republican Congressman Mark Meadows of North Carolina wants John Boehner to vacate the chair.

BOLDUAN: Meadows voted against Boehner's reelection to speakership earlier this year. Now, he later felt the fallout for that, as he lost his chairmanship of a House subcommittee. Meadows was able to get that seat back, but that kind of lays out for you, folks, they're not exactly friends.

Fellow North Carolina Republican Congressman Walter Jones, he is with us now from Capitol Hill.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

You have been -- you are often a critic of Speaker Boehner. You have voted against him. You have wanted him out in the past. Why do you want him out now?

REP. WALTER JONES, (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Well, Kate and John, let me tell you that we are sent here to represent the people of our districts. Our first allegiance should be to the people we represent, not to the speaker of the House. And too many times he has used that position to intimidate and coerce. A recent vote on the Trade Promotion Authority, TPA, and we had members including myself that voted against the rule to bring the TPA to the floor for a debate, and he removed three of those who voted for the rule from positions that they had in the whip organization. We're not here to be puppets of the speaker of the House. We're here to represent our districts.

BERMAN: If this a policy thing or is this personal, Congressman? Because you get the sense from Congressman Meadows that maybe this is payback for Meadows losing his subcommittee chairmanship, at least for a time.

JONES: Well, John, let me say this. I don't think anyone should be intimidated because they vote their conscience. If you can't vote your conscience, then you don't need to be here for the people back home. If you're supposed to be here to vote the will of the speaker, and not the will of the people, then you don't need to be here. And this speaker, in my opinion, has used too much force to intimidate, and that is wrong.

BOLDUAN: Intimidation and coercion, those are major allegations against -- those are major statements against the speaker of the House.

We should tell our viewers, we're waiting to hear from Speaker Boehner we where we'll have the opportunity to address this when he holds a weekly briefing.

I do want to ask you though --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Hold on Congressman. According to "Politico," Meadows hadn't even asked for a meeting with Boehner or any other top Republicans to air his grievances, to air his concerns before making this move. Other conservatives said they were caught by surprise by this move.

JONES: Well, I'm sorry that they were caught by surprise. I've known this for three weeks.

BOLDUAN: OK.

JONES: So therefore, in a situation like this, you don't know who you can trust and not trust. And when you've got a problem like we have with the speaker of the House being so coercive, then we need to do what is necessary for the good of the people and the good of this country.

BERMAN: Congressman, you know, the American people put Republicans back in power after the Democrats controlled the House for four years and the Senate for more than that. Now you have control of both houses of Congress, people think that that they want Congress to help get things done. How is this helping get things done?

JONES: Well, you know, I've said many times in my district, John, quite frankly, that too many times the policy decisions here in Washington -- and this could be both parties -- are made by the influence of money. The policies should be made by the influence of the people and their representatives, not the money people, but those of us who represent the people. One point very quickly, a few months ago, Mr. Boehner's special interest -- excuse me, leadership PAC ran ads against fellow Republicans that were against the immigration issue.

BOLDUAN: It seems like it will be a big battle to pull together the votes to pull this off. Is this more symbolic for you than you think it's going to work?

JONES: Kate, the way I look at this is that we go home for the summer break, I hope that the American people who, in my district, don't have a lot of respect for the speaker of the House, they don't think he's a good leader. He's probably a good person, I'll give him that. But no, no. I think this thing has got legged to it. I don't know how long those legs are but I think it has legs.

BOLDUAN: We will see.

Congressman, thank you very much for your time. I'm very much looking forward to hearing from Speaker Boehner in his reaction to this and what's going on in his conference when he's set to speak later today.

Thank you so much, Congressman.

JONES: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: And thank you all for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "LEGAL VIEW" starts right now.