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Bernie Sanders Rising in Popularity; Hillary Clinton to Hand Over E-Mail Server to DOJ; Prisoners Say Guards Threatened to Waterboard Them; Jeb Bush Blames Hillary Clinton for Mess in Iraq. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 12, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:00] JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jeannie Moos, CNN, New York.

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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Move over, Donald Trump. Bernie Sanders is coming through. He is also exciting voters in a key state. Hear where he's now beating Hillary Clinton as Trump calls Sanders weak.

A rookie officer fired after shooting and killing an unarmed college football player inside a car dealership. But were the officer's actions criminal?

"They beat us, they blamed us, in their search for answers," that's what inmates are accusing guards of after Richard Matt and David Sweat escaped. Hear what the inmates say happened behind bars.

Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. John Berman is off today.

If you said a few weeks ago that Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders would be the presidential candidates to beat, would anyone have believed you? But take a look at the new polls out in two key primary and caucus states. Trump is now out in front in Iowa pushing Scott Walker out of first place. This is the first poll taken since last week's debate. The same deal pretty much in New Hampshire, although Trump's closest competition there now is Jeb Bush. His lead softening a bit. Now take a look at Bernie Sanders, moving ahead of Hillary Clinton for the first time among New Hampshire Democrats. And Sanders has now become one of Donald Trump's targets.

Politics reporter, M.J. Lee, is here to talk about this big shake-up, along with CNN's senior political reporter, Nia-Malika Henderson.

It's great to see both of you. Right before the show, M.J., we were saying, look at these

polls.

Throw it back up there.

Trump is leading in these new polls, by and large, it appears from these numbers that the debate, any problems, any controversies didn't dent him at all, huh?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yeah. And the thing to remember about New Hampshire is that they love outsiders in New Hampshire. They love anti-establishment candidates, candidates who will talk about D.C., as if D.C. were the problem, candidates who are sort of the underdogs and not necessarily the establishment and top- tier candidates or you wouldn't assume to be. So Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, it doesn't seem on the surface level that they have a lot in common, but they actually do. You listen to the way they talk about their issues and the way that they talk to voters. And they're casting themselves as the true outsiders. They're not happy with the political elite. So it's not actually surprising to see them getting this early boost in a state like New Hampshire.

BOLDUAN: Let's look at the Sanders lead now in New Hampshire. Throw it back up there. Sanders at 44 percent, Clinton at 37 percent, Nia, overtaking Clinton for the very first time. What does that tell you or what does that tell the Clinton campaign, I guess?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: They've got a race on their hands and that's what they've always believed. I don't know that they thought it would be Bernie Sanders. There had been some speculation early on that it would be Elizabeth Warren. But she didn't go in. So a lot of those folks who would be attracted to an Elizabeth Warren candidacy are now in Bernie Sanders' camp.

What's odd is that New Hampshire has been a good place to the Clintons. Bill Clinton became the comeback kid in New Hampshire. And Hillary Clinton did so well there. It revived her campaign after that Iowa loss in 2008. But now Sanders is the kid folks are wanting to look at there. He was at 8 percent in the polls in March. He's steadily gaining on Clinton and now overtaking her in the lead there. I think if you talk to the Clinton folks, they do say, well, let's think about what the broader Democratic coalition looks like, doesn't look a lot like New Hampshire. They want to see what's happening in South Carolina, which is a state that Sanders hasn't been to but will go to later this month. And Clinton has spent a lot of time down there. It looks more like the Obama coalition down there.

I want to get both of your takes quick on one thing. Burden of proof. Bernie Sanders becoming a target for Donald Trump. Donald Trump was asked about the fact that Bernie Sanders was essentially shouted off the stage at an event by protesters in the Black Lives Matter movement. Listen to this when Donald Trump was asked about it.

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DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Would you give your microphone to a protester, like Bernie Sanders did?

TRUMP: I would never give up my microphone. I thought that was disgusting. That showed such weakness. The way he was taken away by two young women -- the microphone, they took the whole place over. I felt badly for him. But it showed that he's weak. You know what? He's getting the biggest crowds and I'm getting the biggest crowds. We're the two getting the crowds. But believe me, that's not going to happen to Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: What do you make of that, Nia?

(LAUGHTER)

HENDERSON: Nobody's going to take a mike away from Trump. This is Trump as the alpha male, the biggest man on campus there. But he's sort of feeling the burn and it is interesting that these two -- Trump is the sort of billionaire populist. And then you've got Sanders there who's the Socialist populist and getting a lot of energy. I'll be surprised if we are talking in this way about Trump and Sanders a year from now.

[11:05:21] BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

M.J. Lee, Nia-Malika Henderson, great to see you both. Thank you so much.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Now we're going to take a look at the other leading Democratic candidate running for president, Hillary Clinton. Reversing course, she is now turning over her private e-mail server and a thumb drive to the Justice Department. That something that Clinton has to this point resists and has resisted doing so for months. It comes after an intelligence official told Congress at least five e-mails on that server that Clinton used as secretary of state contained classified information.

And look at this recent poll. It shows that the majority of Americans, 52 percent leave that Clinton's e-mails should be subject to a criminal investigation. Most of those saying, yes, it should are probably not surprisingly independents and Republicans.

Let's bring in our legal analyst, Paul Callan, for more on this.

Paul, the Clinton campaign has successfully resisted handing this over to this point. A lot of folks are wondering, why now? It's back in the headlines.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's back in the headlines because there's sort of a general awareness now that Hillary Clinton had in her possession literally thousands of e-mails, maybe in the basement of her house, on a computer server, classified information. And the allegation is that that might be a criminal violation of law. Remember the General Petraeus case when Petraeus brought his laptop computer to a place where his mistress was able to see it? There are no mistresses involved here. However, the classified information doctrine is the same. There are strict federal laws restricting where you can possess classified information, how you have to protect it and it's criminal to disclose it.

BOLDUAN: With that in mind, then, officials have said over and over again when this has come up that Hillary Clinton herself is not a target of this investigation. So what does DOJ want with the server? The Clinton campaign says it has been wiped.

CALLAN: Well, I think they want two things. First of all, when you say a computer's been wiped, there are experts who sometimes can look at a --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Not necessarily been wiped.

CALLAN: You can get the information back. I'm sure that's what justice has in mind. They want to see what was on that computer. Secondly, these secrecy laws are very, very complex, these federal laws. But this is what they require. They say that if you have in your possession classified information and then they subcategorize it, it could be secret, top secret, confidential -- there are different levels. If it's the kind of information which a release would gravely damage the interests of the United States, that's criminal activity. And I think they are looking in general to see what information was there and if secondly the information was destroyed, is that evidence of a cover-up of some kind because many times that's the most serious thing that people face. Sometimes they eliminate or erase something and it turns out it was important --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Cover-up is worse than the crime?

CALLAN: Exactly. In fairness, Hillary Clinton says she was unaware of any classified information --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: And they say it wasn't classified. The State Department and its intelligence officials, there's a dispute if it was classified. It wasn't classified at the time that these e-mails were sent. That's what makes this even more murky.

CALLAN: We can't jump to conclusions here until we see all of the information as to which side is right here and whether there was criminal activity by Hillary Clinton.

BOLDUAN: Do you think -- and the campaign continues to say that this is not a criminal investigation into Hillary Clinton. Justice officials have said that she is not a target of the investigation. Do you think that could change? Do you think anything that they're going to see on these servers -- in these servers could change that, that she could still be in trouble, talking legally?

CALLAN: Having been a prosecutor myself and a criminal defense attorney, I know that whenever law enforcement is after something that belongs to you, anything can happen if there's something on that computer that they're not aware of, if there's evidence that stuff was erased that shouldn't have been erased. Everything could change in this case. So I get back to saying, we don't know enough to reach conclusions. The politicians, of course, will be trading accusations. But until we know what this investigation discloses, we don't know. And in the end, yes, it could turn into something very, very serious, or it could be nothing.

BOLDUAN: And regardless of how it turns out, it continues to plague her all throughout the early stages of the campaign. That is exactly what Republicans want.

Paul, thank you so much.

CALLAN: Nice being with you.

[11:09:57] BOLDUAN: Of course.

Coming up for us, Jeb Bush blaming Hillary Clinton for ISIS and revealing his plan for Iraq. But will bringing up his brother's war backfire on him?

Plus, "They threatened to waterboard us," that's just one of the accusations from inmates at the prison where those two other inmates escaped. I'm going to speak live with one of the facility's most infamous inmates.

And a white officer shooting and killing a black football player unarmed inside a car dealership. That officer is now fired. Will his actions bring charges?

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BOLDUAN: New this morning, stunning allegations about inmates at Clinton Correctional Facility, the maximum security prison that two inmates brazenly escaped from in June. Well, other inmates now claim that guards violently interrogated them after David Sweat and Richard Matt broke out as officials were searching for information on where the two killers went and how they made their escape. The complaints were first reported in "The New York Times." The allegations include inmates being beaten, even plastic bags put over their heads during interrogations. One prisoner said an officer grabbed him by the throat, lifted him out of a chair and slammed his head into a pipe. There were even threats of waterboarding. CNN hasn't been able to independently verify these accounts.

But let's discuss this. Joining me now is Michael Aliq, who served 17 years there for murder.

Michael, thank you for coming in. These are some serious allegations, when I started reading this

account by "The New York Times." Do you believe them?

MICHAEL ALIQ, FORMER INMATE: Hearing you talk about them -- when I first heard the waterboarding, I thought that's not possible. But hearing what you just said, slamming against the pipe and the plastic bag over the head, that I believe. I've seen that happen.

[11:15:09] BOLDUAN: You've seen this type of --

(CROSSTALK)

ALIQ: I had it happen to me, and I've seen it happen to other people --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Under what circumstances?

ALIQ: Under these, definitely. If I was in that facility right now, I would be terrified to be alone with an officer because of this very reason. I had a little bit something going for me because I had had some media attention so they knew they couldn't really do that to me. But they did do it to some extent. If they were doing that to me, I could only imagine that they would be doing to other people. But the waterboarding is going too far. I don't think they're going to do that.

BOLDUAN: But this type of brutal interrogation, taking someone into a broom closet, threatening them, putting a plastic bag over their head, are these guards capable of that?

ALIQ: Yes, absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Why?

ALIQ: I had an officer put a knife to my neck once for not following a rule when I was having my I.D. taken when I got to the facility. I stepped over a line and I guess I was giggling and he took me into a room and put a knife to me neck and said that he could cut my neck right then and it would be my word against his and nobody would believe me. I was terrified. I was shaking. I went to the yard and called my parents, I called the superintendent. The superintendent came down. It was Christmas Eve. They woke him up at his house. He came to the facility. It was a huge deal. But, yeah, they do that.

BOLDUAN: In this circumstance, more than 60 inmates have filed complaints with this, complaints over this. Are these complaints -- are these unusual? Does this happen often?

ALIQ: The terrible thing about this is that there are inmates who do organize these things. They'll go to the yard --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: In terms of organize, make it up?

ALIQ: Yes. And they'll say, everybody -- and they'll bring the forms and hand them out and say, you say this, you say this and we'll all get together and say this. And unfortunately those instances make it harder to believe to the boy who cried wolf because these things actually do happen. I was always telling them, when you do this, you're really working against yourself.

BOLDUAN: With that in mind, Michael, what's your gut instinct about this situation?

ALIQ: I think they're probably a little bit -- using a little bit more power and coercion than normal and even normal is probably too much. But I don't think they're waterboarding.

BOLDUAN: You don't think they waterboarded --

ALIQ: No.

BOLDUAN: But the inmates' claims aren't necessarily fabricated?

ALIQ: No.

BOLDUAN: Will these guards be held accountable?

ALIQ: No.

BOLDUAN: Why not?

ALIQ: Because it's your word against theirs. There are cameras all over the place. And if there's an allegation against an officer, there should be footage of it. If there's not footage, if the camera is broken or the film is missing, the inmate isn't deemed the winner.

BOLDUAN: But there aren't cameras in broom closets --

(CROSSTALK)

ALIQ: Exactly my point. They will take you to someplace where there are no cameras and there may not be any proof of you going in there. There may be no camera on the door that you're going into and it's your word against the officer. You will never win against that.

BOLDUAN: These 60 complaints filed and --

ALIQ: Now maybe they'll look into it.

BOLDUAN: -- there's a lot of attention. We'll see exactly what happens.

Michael, thank you very much.

Coming up for us, fired for exercising poor judgment. That's the way they put it. Stunning new details about the actions of a rookie police officer before he shot and killed a college student. And his brother sent the U.S. to war in Iraq, but Jeb Bush blames

Hillary Clinton for Iraq's decline, saying that she stood by as things got worse. Is this good strategy?

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[11:22:20] BOLDUAN: Jeb Bush trying to show that he does in fact have the fire in his belly to win the presidency as he lays out his strategy to defeat ISIS. In a big foreign policy speech, Bush slammed Hillary Clinton for supporting or standing by and supporting the withdrawal of U.S. combat troops from Iraq and for giving the terror group a chance to advance. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Where was Secretary of State Clinton in all this? Like the president himself, she had opposed the surge, then joined and claiming credit for its success, then stood by as that hard-won victory by American and allied forces was thrown away. In all of her record-setting travels, she stopped by Iraq exactly once.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: But of course, it was Jeb Bush's brother who signed the security agreement that called for U.S. combat troops to be out of Iraq by 2011. Clinton's team is firing back. Her top foreign policy adviser said Jeb Bush is trying to, quote, "rewrite history and reassign responsibility." This is definitely not over.

So let's discuss with the former CIA director, James Woolsey.

Director Woolsey, it's great to see you. Thank you so much for coming in.

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Good to be with you.

BOLDUAN: Jeb Bush, you heard him there. He's beginning to lay out his foreign policy vision. In doing so, he's bringing up Iraq, blaming Clinton and Obama for Iraq's decline. Is that risky? Can't that backfire on him given his family name?

WOOLSEY: Well, maybe neither of the two presidential candidates, Jeb Bush nor Hillary Clinton, were really instrumental in the very bad decision to pull out of Iraq early. That was first signaled by President Bush and then implemented by President Obama. And it was a terrible decision. It has led to not even having forward air controllers that can spot enemy in Syria, let's say, and permit accurate bombing. And so it was a terrible decision, I think. But neither of the presidential candidates were really the key people in it.

BOLDUAN: With that in mind, you think it's fair game? They can bring it up and keep their hands clean, if you will, in terms of it being a weakness or an Achilles heel for either of them? WOOLSEY: It looks like given other things going on in the

presidential campaigns that nobody really cares about being fair that much. Whether it's a game or not, I don't know. I do a better job getting inside the head of dictators and terrorists than I do inside the heads of American politicians.

[11:24:58] BOLDUAN: Quite a statement, sir, that's for sure. Some of what Jeb Bush has suggested in this big foreign policy speech is he suggested a no-fly zone along the Syrian border and embedding U.S. Troops inside Iraq. But by and large, Bush's approach as outlined -- there could still be more details he could lay out -- so far, it doesn't seem much different from current operations, does it?

WOOLSEY: Well, I think they could do a lot more from the air in terms of no-fly zones and in terms of strikes. On a typical day there for a long time and maybe still, they were caught saying that they were using airpower but they were flying three, four, five, six sorties a day. And back in the Clinton administration, we were flying hundreds of sorties a day. One needs to look at the - quantitative situation and see exactly what's happening. I think we could do a lot more from the air, especially with forward air controllers as candidate Bush has suggested.

BOLDUAN: And the front-runner right now, Donald Trump, his approach against is has been getting a lot of attention. He basically says he wants to take ISIS out by taking out the oil fields in Iraq and putting U.S. Troops on the ground there then to protect the oil. How realistic is that in your view and also going forward, what are your key questions on foreign policy from these -- from all of presidential candidates?

WOOLSEY: It's not only unrealistic, it's a bad idea. We don't want to steal the Mideast's oil. What Matters is the price of the oil, not whether it comes from Canada or the United States or Iraq. And I think where it comes from is a balance of payments question. But the real issue is the price of the oil and to do that better, to keep prices low, say, down around $40 a barrel or so, we've got to have a competitor for oil in transportation. And for some people, that's electricity. For others, it's methanol. For Brazil, it's ethanol. We need competitors for oil to keep the price down. That's the key issue, not what Mr. Trump is suggesting.

BOLDUAN: What's the key question for you going forward? What question do you want answered on foreign policy from these candidates?

WOOLSEY: I want to see whether or not we have either candidate embodying pretty much what president Reagan did, which was like his Republican predecessor, Teddy Roosevelt, he spoke softly most of the time but carried a big stick. And by handling things that way and also the way Democratic presidents have in the past -- Harry Truman is one of my personal all-time favorites -- we could have a very strong foreign policy but not go ordering people around and not looking as if we're trying to run the world. But we've also got to get our military funded adequately. This system they've got now for the budget is absolutely awful. And it's taking our military down to unprecedented low levels. We've got to turn that around right away. BOLDUAN: That is something we've heard Jeb Bush and other

Republican candidates have brought that up as well.

Director Woolsey, it's great to see you. Thanks so much.

WOOLSEY: Good to see you. Thanks.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

Coming up for us, off the job. Texas officials say poor judgment led to the firing of a rookie officer after he shot and killed an unarmed teenager. New details ahead on the deadly confrontation.

And too much homework. First-graders spending almost 30 minutes every single night on school work. What can parents do to stop that stress?

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