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At This Hour

Witness Describes Take-Down of Paris Attacker; Meeting Between Biden, Warren Prompts Questions of Presidential Run; Firepower Shows Paris Attacker Planned Massacre. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired August 24, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:32:24] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: It was do or die, and it all happened in just a few moments. A heavily armed man opening fire aboard a packed train in France. Five men leapt into action thwarting what could have been a potential massacre. Among those men, three American childhood friends, Alek Scarlatos, Spencer Stone and Anthony Sadler. This morning, they received France's highest recognition, the Legion of Honor. Their decision to take action likely saved many, many lives.

Christina Coons was one of the people potentially saved on that train. She was aboard that train, witnessed this horrifying -- well, lived through this horrifying experience.

Christina, thank you so much for joining me.

You were telling me you just got back to the states late last night.

CHRISTINA COONS, WITNESS: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: This was your first trip to Europe.

COONS: Yes, it was.

BOLDUAN: In that moment, when did you realize that something was terribly wrong?

COONS: When I heard the gunshot. When I heard the gunshot and I saw everybody dive under their seats. I followed suit and did the same.

BOLDUAN: And then did it happen, did it seem like an eternity? How did it play out then for you?

COONS: It's crazy because I have never experienced something like that, and in that moment everything felt like it happened so quickly, but then there was a point where things slowed down. Figuratively and literally because at a point they were able to slow the train, and eventually make the stop so we could help this man and figure out what everybody was going to do.

BOLDUAN: I wanted to ask you about that, but was there panic? I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

COONS: So much panic.

BOLDUAN: I can imagine --

(CROSSTALK)

COONS: Gunshots, screaming. Like I said, everybody under their seats. You know, I actually recall while I was under my seat looking at a woman that was across from me or sort of diagonal to me and just looking at her face of sheer horror and just basically mouthing to her like what are we going to do? What's going to happen next?

BOLDUAN: Because you don't know.

COONS: Right.

BOLDUAN: And then the train car that you were in, what you believe to be first victim, he kind of stumbled in. Describe what you saw.

COONS: So the gunshot went off. I dove under, and then all of a sudden I see a man stumbles in and now I'm under the seat, so I can't see a full view of what's going on. But I see this man stumble in. He has this -- he's holding a bag, a duffel bag, and he dropped it on the seat across from me.

[11:35:01] BOLDUAN: Those, I think, are some of the pictures we have.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: We'll show them as we're talking about it.

COONS: The duffel bag was spattered in blood. I saw the bloodied duffle bag. I look over at him, as you're seeing in the photo, and he's on the floor and he's bleeding from the neck profusely, just lots of blood.

BOLDUAN: Did you become aware as this played out that there were these three Americans that helped stop this? Did you become aware of how -- you saw blood, but did you know how serious it was in the moment?

COONS: In the moment it was such a scary experience that being able to process what was going on was sort of even out of my own abilities. You know, and I don't know how everybody else was feeling, but I can imagine everybody else was sort of feeling similar. You know, it's like nothing felt in our control. It felt like chaos, but then one of the men that did save everybody's lives did say, you know, we were able to secure the person that was armed. We were able to wrestle the weapon out of their arms, and they're securely tied up. They kind of made an announcement to our car and I was on car 12, and after that people I think were a little more comfortable and they started coming out from under their seats.

BOLDUAN: And then, Christina, you're now back home. You've now had some time to process this, but when you look back and you know more now even than what you know in that moment, this man was heavily armed. He had hundreds of bullets on him.

COONS: Right.

BOLDUAN: This could have been so much worse.

COONS: Oh, it certainly could have.

BOLDUAN: What do you make of the experience when you think now of that?

COONS: Well, even on the train I had heard one of the men tell us that he had a lot of ammunition, so there was a lot of talking going on, on the train, while they're trying to save this man's life, you know, and I was hearing tidbits of everything going on and I did hear them say that he had all of this ammunition and I thought to myself, oh, my god, like this seemed like it could have been a big ordeal. We all could have been done for. We all could have died, and it was a very, very scary reality.

BOLDUAN: Scary reality and something that I'm sure for you is probably still setting in. This is so fresh in your mind.

COONS: It is actually, and the crazy thing is, you know, I was -- Paris was supposed to be the end of my trip, and I had been to Italy and Amsterdam and Paris was supposed to be the end for two and a half days, and Paris turned into 24 hours for me because of all of the craziness. I'm so grateful to be alive and that I was able to actually -- I tried to enjoy what I could in Paris, but -- and I tried to ignore it and I was ignoring phone calls and I was ignoring e-mails while I spent time with a great friend of mine from Paris, but when I got back -- when I got on the plane to go home after a couple hours of being on my flight I kind of just started crying to myself because --

BOLDUAN: It hit you.

COONS: -- it started hitting me again.

BOLDUAN: What would you say, if you could, to those men?

COONS: They saved my life. They saved many lives. And they prevented what could have been a full-on attack. You know, there were -- the train is huge. I think there were hundreds of people on that train.

BOLDUAN: 500.

COONS: And who knows what could have happened to all of us, who could have happened to me, and I'm incredibly grateful to them, incredibly grateful. I think they are amazing and they really took action. I think it's incredible they were able to do that.

BOLDUAN: A proud moment for so many people.

COONS: Yes, definitely.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to meet you. I'm so sorry under these circumstances.

COONS: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: But thank you so much.

COONS: Thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

Coming up for us, it turns out the suspect in this train attack in northern France is no stranger to authorities there. Well, just ahead, was this 26-year-old a lone wolf? What may have motivated him? Those are obviously the key questions on so many minds this morning. We're going to take a look at that ahead.

And will he or won't he? The political world is buzzing after Vice President Joe Biden has a private meeting with a key player. Is he gaining support for a potential 2016 run? Oh, let's discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:43:12] BOLDUAN: A schedule change that has the political world wondering even more now, is Vice President Joe Biden going to jump into the race for president. As CNN first reported, Biden was supposed to spend the weekend at his home in Delaware. Well, instead, for at least a moment, he went back to Washington Saturday for a two- hour meeting with Senator Elizabeth Warren, a darling of the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. People familiar with the meeting said they talked about economic policy, for one, and did not focus on any campaign or Biden's future. We weren't in the room so we don't know.

Joining me to discuss is senior political analyst and editorial director at the "National Journal," Ron Brownstein; and A.B. Stoddard, associate editor of "The Hill" newspaper.

Great to see both of you.

So, Ron, good morning. Start us off here. What does this meeting with Elizabeth Warren tell you? Does it move Joe Biden from potential candidate to likely candidate in your mind?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST & EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, NATIONAL JOURNAL: Not yet. I mean, look, I think what we're seeing is anxiety among Democrats, particularly about the open-ended nature of the e-mail controversy surrounding Hillary Clinton. Her inability to put it behind her, and so there are people looking for an insurance policy, and I think that leads to encouragement for vice president Biden, but there is still a big distance between that level of encouragement and the support you'd actually need to beat her, to run a successful campaign and all indications are that it's very much on his mind, too. He's run twice before. He was a terrific senator. He's beloved in the Democratic Party as a vice president but he was not a very successful presidential candidate either time, so there is that history to consider as well.

BOLDUAN: That's true. But let's talk about this meeting, A.B., because it seems to be more than a meeting, at least some folks are reading it that way. Warren very noticeably has not endorsed anyone, which a lot of folks point out. What do you think Biden is possibly trying to do here with this meeting?

[11:45:12] A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, THE HILL: It's interesting we know about the meeting. We didn't find out about Elizabeth Warren's meeting with Hillary Clinton until well after it happened.

BOLDUAN: Right.

STODDARD: He either -- you know, he's seeking her input on what the grassroots of the party is demanding in a nominee, what will turn out the voters, what will energize and galvanize voters. He apparently did not ask for her endorsement, but he apparently made it clear -- reportedly made it clear that he was thinking of running, so it's implicit that he's looking for her support, and everybody's noticed that she's not endorsed Hillary Clinton. I think Elizabeth Warren worshippers hope it's a message to her that even if Biden doesn't do it, it's not too late for her to get in. I don't know if she wants to. I think it's important he get somebody like Elizabeth Warren on his side so Bernie Sanders is no longer an option, that kind of thing.

BOLDUAN: Ron, when you look at the poll numbers, we have 53 percent in the latest CNN poll, 53 percent of Democratic voters, they think Biden should run. 45 percent said that he should not. But when you also take into account the calendar, Hillary Clinton has been in the race for four months. She has major donors locked up. She has a ground operation in place and in motion. Do you think Joe Biden -- I think you were getting to this -- do you think he can pull off a competitive campaign getting in at this point?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think there are challenges not only kind of operationally that you're describing in terms of donors and activists who are locked up, but there's more of the challenge in terms of defining the difference.

Joe Biden is not inherently a better fit for the Elizabeth Warren wing of the party than Hillary Clinton is. Joe Biden has been a centrist Democrat. He was the lead architect of the 1994 crime bill in the Senate that Hillary Clinton has kind of renounced now amid kind of pressure from the Democratic left. So generationally he isn't a clear contrast. Ideologically he isn't a clear contrast. His one clear contrast is if he entered the race that people might feel he is, you know, more electable if Hillary Clinton continues to be damaged by the e-mail story. There's not a clear argument other than Hillary Clinton's potential weakness. So in some ways, I think what happens to her will have more influence on whether he runs than what happens to him.

BOLDUAN: And we shall see. That's for sure.

A.B., Ron, it's great to see you guys. Thank you.

STODDARD: Thanks.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, witnesses say it was like a bomb exploding. The terrifying moments a military jet plunges from the sky.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:51:19] BOLDUAN: CNN has learned the tensions between North and South Korea have prompted the Pentagon to review its war plans. Officials are confirming the details of North Korea's military buildup and partial mobilization of forces, Washington is trying to determine if the buildup is continuing after high-level meetings in the Demilitarized Zone over the weekend. The buildup is seen as serious and the Pentagon is so concerned they're taking a close look at how the U.S. would defend South Korea in the case that there is a sudden indication the North was going to start a war. A lot more to come on that.

The big story we've been following this hour, his plan of attack foiled. Ayoub el Khazzani was fully loaded when he was taken down by five passenger, now heroes, aboard a packed train in France. Authorities said with the kind of firepower he was carrying he was planning a massacre.

Let's discuss this. Joining me now is CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank; and CNN national security analyst and former Homeland Security official, Juliette Kayyem.

Great to see both of you. Thanks so much.

Paul, you've been talking to your sources. You have a lot of sources, especially in Belgium, where there are terror networks around there. Your sources are pointing at least to some indications that he was trying to join ISIS, had some connection to ISIS. What are you picking up?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: That's right. They believe he traveled to Turkey between May and July over this year, probably to try and join ISIS in Syria. It's not clear to them yet whether he managed to get over to Syria, but they're also investigating the possibility that he connected with a French ISIS cell inside Turkey that over the past few months has been trying to redirect European extremists to go back home and launch attacks. So don't go over to Syria but go back home and launch attacks. That cell in France were linked to a plot in April to attack churches and other targets in Paris and the plotter in this case was communicating back with the cell and discussing the idea of launching attacks on passenger trains.

BOLDUAN: So that is a major -- that's a major development that we're picking up.

But, Juliette, I want to get what you make of one what this man's attorney is saying in France. She says he simply found these weapons in a public garden in Belgium and wanted to commit an armed robbery. JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I guess I'm going to

say nice try. I mean, there's almost no proof of anything but a terrorist incident, as Paul was saying, his long ties to terrorist organizations, the fact that he was known to French and European intelligence agencies. I mean, a lot of these instances, we use the term "lone wolf" but the term should be "known wolf." These guys are being picked up at various moments. There's just a resource issue and a focus issue in terms of stopping them from doing something very dangerous.

BOLDUAN: I mean, Juliette has pointed this out, you have as well. France has a problem. He was known. He was on the radar screen of French officials as well as in Spain but there also seems to be a bit of -- I don't know if it's finger pointing but a bit of misunderstanding who have knew what and when and why he seemed to skirt under the radar.

BROWNSTEIN: Well, it's difficult for authorities because people can travel from country to country like people can travel in the United States. Because of the agreement, you don't have to show your pass from France to Belgium to Spain. But it's a huge challenge. They're looking at thousands of radical extremists right across Europe. They don't have the resources to monitor all but a small fraction 24/7. Even if they tripled the amount of money they spent on counterterrorism, they still wouldn't get anywhere close to monitoring everybody. So this is the new normal, unfortunately.

[11:55:00] BOLDUAN: It doesn't seem that adding manpower seems to be a solution.

Juliette, folks often -- and Paul was talking about it -- they talk about the vulnerability of training. By design, they're supposed to be a quick way to travel, especially in Europe. In your view, are they now too vulnerable?

KAYYEM: I don't have a good solution for anybody. 40 million Europeans getting on train every single day. That is a part of their life-style. It's a part of our life-style in the United States. The more security apparatus you put on any system, the slower it will get and that will impact people. Look, the reason why we have so many Americans on trains now is because people don't want to be bothered with airports. So the idea that there's a single solution is just -- it's a fiction. What we have to think about is layered security and obviously people as we saw in France being aware of their surroundings and in this case a very fortunate sort of stopping of a terrorist incident by three very heroic Americans.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

Juliette, thank you so much.

Paul, great to see you. Thank you as well.

Coming up for us, fear and panic taking hold on Wall Street. Breaking news after the Dow dropped a thousand points shortly after the opening bell. We'll have more details on the rocky situation there ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: The death toll is rising in England after a military jet plunged from the sky and crashed on a busy highway. You're seeing video here. It happened during a popular air show over the weekend. 11 people are now confirmed dead but police say the death toll could rise as high as 20. It's horrific to see. Searchers are looking for more victims at the crash site. Remarkably, though, the pilot is not among those killed. He was pulled from the wreckage sand in a medically induced coma in critical condition. Many people are questioning right now whether an aerobatics show should have been held over such a busy highway in the first place. A lot more to come from that story, of course.

Thank you so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

Let me leave you at the end of the show with a quick look at the big board. Our top story today after that rocky morning -- that's almost a nice way of saying it. Down 208 points at this point.

"Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield is going to pick up with that right now.