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At This Hour

Refugees Break Through Police Lines, Run for Lives; Rally, Protests for Jailed County Clerk; Poll: Clinton Worst Showing Yet; Pope Makes Marriage Annulment Easier. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired September 08, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Lots to keep track of if you're Brian Stelter.

Thank you so much, Brian. I appreciate it.

Thanks for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Running for their lives. CNN right in the middle of a remarkable, terrifying scene as mothers, fathers, children burst through a police line and try to escape to a better life. The refugee crisis like you have never seen it.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Defiant behind bars. The clerk who refuses to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples is about to get a visit from a presidential candidate. This, as Kentucky braces for demonstrations.

BERMAN: And a high school ref flattened during a game by two players. The disturbing video and what might have set this whole thing in motion.

BOLDUAN: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman. The images we are seeing are dramatic and heartbreaking. A remarkable display of perseverance but also desperation. Refugees bursting through police lines and literally running for their lives.

Hundreds, including women and children, tired of being held in camps with little shelter, little food, and little help, waiting days for buses, they make a break for the border.

CNN's Arwa Damon was in the middle of it. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're running now with these migrants and refugees who just broke out of the holding area right along the border with Serbia. The police are literally right behind them --

(SHOUTING) DAMON: -- CNN.

The police are literally right behind them and in front, trying to bring them under control. There are hundreds of them that staged this breakout because they were fed up at the conditions they were being held in. They couldn't take it anymore. Young, old men, parents with families, all breaking through, and now also being pursued by the police force through this cornfield.

This all kicked off about a half an hour ago. And there are people who have been carrying their children. There are some elderly among these crowds. These are people who at this stage are literally running for their lives.

They took a risk when they broke out of the camp. They knew that. They were terrified of what the police would do. And now they are not only afraid of being caught but of what their potential punishment might be, and of being brought into those camps that they did not want to go into, especially not after having had to wait in those fields for so long.

Not yet. We haven't yet. They did manage to catch a few people who were stuck in the back, but, yes, they don't want to get caught. They don't want to go back into the camp. They don't want to wait to be fingerprinted. They're afraid that the police will use force to try to bring them in. All they really want to do is somehow get out, keep their journey going, which is why so many of them were so frustrated with the wait, because they were being held in these horrific conditions in this one holding area.

But they also are afraid now because they did this that perhaps they will somehow be punished. These are people who are so desperate, they just want to get going. They just want to get to Germany. They just want this epic journey of theirs throughout Europe to actually finally end. That they will go to these lengths if that's what they need to do to try to break out of certain areas. We've seen this on a number of occasions. We saw this when there was a big standoff in the train. We saw this when people decided to walk for eight, nine hours along the highway just to be able to get to Budapest. These are the actions of a desperate people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: That was Arwa Damon. That was a scene Arwa captured earlier.

Arwa Damon is joining us live from the border of Serbia and Hungary.

Arwa, the desperate scene that you captured was just astonishing and not the only one as you describe that you have come across. So tell us what are you seeing and hearing now on the ground?

[11:05:] DAMON: Well, the police did eventually surround those people who made a break for it and here is the scene. They hiked about four miles mostly along this train track. The police did end up catching up to them. People had to throw away the small belongings that they had, but those -- especially those who were carrying the children were really struggling to stay ahead. The police force eventually caught up with them and sort of escorted them and allowed them to come up until this point where then they stopped them. They told them not to go on. They tried to push through. They were unable to do so.

The situation settled down a little bit. The police brought in food and water and now there's been quite an intense negotiation under way. And one of the refugees just made an announcement to everybody else about how the arrangement was that they would get on buses and that they would have to trust the Hungarian authorities, something people are very reluctant to do. They would get on buses and then they would be taken to an area. They would not be fingerprinted and then they would be getting a train. Bringing them a train that they hope would take them to Austria and then onwards to Germany.

But just to give you an idea, the group you see here is about half the number of those that actually made a break for it. They ended up splitting up at one point when they were running through the fields in that complete and total chaos and actually the group divided when the police came through them at one point, and this young man here, I was talking to him a short while ago, and he said his brother seems to have been part of the other group.

He said when the police came and the police came and basically split the big group up into two, both smaller groups ran in two different directions and he hasn't heard from his brother. He has no way of getting in touch with him. Doesn't know what's going on. Over here you have a family, and the two kids, we were watching them earlier. They lost their shoes as they were running and then they walked for about three hours in their bare feet along these train tracks on these very big rocks that are here.

So it just goes to show you how desperate these people are. The breakout happening because they were absolutely refusing to stay in this holding area for hours. Some of them had been there for days. They were fed up with the conditions. This is what people do when they get this desperate.

BERMAN: Arwa Damon for us on the Serbia/Hungary border.

Arwa, thank you so much for your work in bringing us these pictures. These are images that the world needs to see. These barefoot children walking hours and hours to reach a better life.

I want to bring in CNN global affairs analyst, Bobby Ghosh.

Bobby, these are images the world needs to see, the world is seeing them. They are. We have evidence of that. But the question is what to do about it now. There's this debate, is it a push factor? Is it because they're fleeing Syria and Afghanistan and war-torn regions or is it the pull factor that Germany has opened its doors and they see a chance so they're running to these places like a magnet?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I think the answer is all of the above. The world is paying attention but it's doing more. I think you are seeing political leaders certainly in Europe begin to respond to this and perhaps just as important you're seeing a lot of pressure being put on these political leaders by ordinary citizens who are horrified, a, by what they see on television, but also they're quite disappointed with the failure of their own political leaders to do more about it. So Germany is an exception, but in plenty of other countries where the local governments in Hungary and Austria, where the local governments have not done enough, you are seeing ordinary people take to the streets and welcome these refugees.

BOLDUAN: And now we're hearing that the Obama administration is considering actively considering a range of options in what the U.S. Can do. What should the U.S. be doing? You wonder and there's a long delay with Arwa, we wanted to speak with her about that as well, what the refugees want to see in terms of help from the United States. It seems to far away from them, of course.

GHOSH: If we had heard one consistent message from the refugees it is this: Fix the problem at home. Stop the war. Help to stop the war. We don't want to leave our homes. We don't want to have to run on the railway tracks of Europe trying to burst out and get into Germany. We want to live in Syria. Help us fix the problem.

The Obama administration has had four years. They're still looking at options?

BOLDUAN: The conflict in Syria has been going on in 2011.

BERMAN: This is not a war this administration wants to be a part of it and it's not a war the American people frankly at this point want to be a part of.

GHOSH: They don't. But they do want the American people as always respond to human crises. Again --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: -- when you see children sitting barefoot in the dirt.

[11:10:01] GHOSH: People are coming out. If you follow them on social media, there are activist groups that want to see the U.S. government do more. There are many things we can do short of military action. Just a simple thing, help build better refugee camps.

BERMAN: Quickly, Bobby, it's September. Is anything going to stop these scenes from happening?

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Is anything going to shut this down in the near future?

GHOSH: It's going to get worse when the weather gets bad. Imagine having to live in those refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan, in Turkey in the middle of winter. There are going to be more and more people making a break for Europe.

BOLDUAN: They've already talked about the temperatures are dipping into the 40s at night and they have no shelter in some places. So this change is going to happen.

BERMAN: Thank god for the kindness of people along the streets.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you, Bobby, thank you so much.

Arwa, amazing reporting. Thank you as always.

Ahead for us, some are now calling it America's war on Christianity. And very soon demonstrations, they're expected. And Mike Huckabee is going to be going behind bars to visit this woman, the clerk who will not issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. We'll take you there.

And then a new dramatic change to the Catholic Church, this time, involving divorce. What is the pope doing and why do some critics say he's going too far?

And blindsided. A high school ref -- you will not believe this -- just flattened, hit twice from behind. The disturbing video and why on earth would these players ever do that? We have new details just in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:14:50] BOLDUAN: Happening right now, a jailhouse meeting is about to take place between the Kentucky clerk who refuses to issue same-sex marriage licenses and Republican presidential candidate, Mike Huckabee.

After Huckabee meets with Kim Davis behind bars, he will lead an "I am with Kim" liberty rally outside the jail. Authorities say hundreds, maybe more, could attend the rally. They've already closed the area schools.

BOLDUAN: Amazing that they did that. It shows how much attention this really is getting.

And Ted Cruz, he's also going to be heading there to hold an event outside the facility later this afternoon.

So joining us to discuss now, two CNN political contributors, Amanda Carpenter, the former communication director for Senator Ted Cruz; and Van Jones, former adviser to President Obama.

It's great to see you both.

It seems a pivotal day in terms of the politics that have now surrounded this fight over same-sex marriage in Kentucky.

Amanda, how big is this going to play or do you think it should play in the Republican primary because as we can see now, Huckabee is there, Ted Cruz is going there, and all of them are being asked about it or taking a stand.

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. This is going to be a very big deal and it's so nice to be here this morning with you because this is a fight much larger than just Kim Davis. Among Christians, particularly evangelicals they have felt there's been a war on faith by the Obama administration for many years. This hasn't happened in a vacuum. We've seen the Obama administration sue organizations like hobby lobby, little sisters of the poor, Catholic charity that provides help to the elderly. We've seen florists be taken to court, photographers, pizzeria owners under attack. This is something that's been happening all over the country. I think it's largely because of the way that this issue has been decided largely through the courts and not in a Democratic way where people have the ability to support or oppose gay marriage.

BERMAN: Van, I'm sure you want to comment on that, but, with your patience, I'd like to move on to a separate issue right now. We'll let the courts decide what's going on in Kentucky.

BOLDUAN: And see what Ted Cruz and Huck have to say.

BERMAN: See what they have to say. We'll talk about that tomorrow.

I want to move to Hillary Clinton. There's a brand new poll out minutes ago which shows her standing nationally now sinking. This is from Monmouth University. She is now at 42 percent. Joe Biden is at 22 percent and Bernie Sanders is at 20 percent. This is a 10-point drop from the last Monmouth poll. This is her smallest lead to date in this national poll. This is on top of, Van, a poll over the weekend which shows her trailing Bernie Sanders in New Hampshire by, frankly, a lot at this point, nine or 10 points. This comes on the same day the Clinton campaign is leaking to "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post," they're going to pivot and you will see a new Hillary on the campaign trail. She's going to be laughing and joking at the same time as taking on Republicans. Is that enough?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, it was inevitable she was going to have to go through this valley. I wish it weren't about some e-mail stuff which is more of a self-inflicted wound. Nobody can stay where she is. She was so high above planet earth. She had to come down. You know, one of the things that's interesting is I don't have a dog in this race. I like all of our candidates that are running. But Hillary Clinton is someone who everybody who has dealt with her individually, and I certainly have, sees a warm, passionate, amazing human being. I have literally seen her come off the stage where she's given a speech that sometimes sounds like she's reading somebody's term paper and she comes off on the rope line and she is just as magnetic as an Oprah Winfrey and I think part of what you're seeing is people -- is there some way that the public can actually see that Hillary Clinton? And I think if people began to get a little bit more of an insight into her, I think she will warm up. But this was inevitable. She could not stay in this stratosphere forever. She had to come down.

BOLDUAN: How long is she going to stay down though, I think, is the question,

Especially when you see the other big headline coming out of the new poll that just released, Amanda, Biden on the rise? He's at 22 percent here nationally. This is the first time that he's topped 20 percent in national polling and reminder, he's not told us if he's going to be in the race or not. Take a look though at this man over the weekend at Labor Day festivities if we've got that video. He was running and talking and waving and making an impassioned speech to a crowd of people. This looked like somebody that wanted to run. What do you see, Amanda?

CARPENTER: I think Joe Biden should get in the race for two reasons. To help Hillary Clinton and to help the Republican Party. Think about it --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: You think it helps Hillary Clinton?

CARPENTER: Absolutely. I think she needs someone else on the debate stage to help defend the Obama/Clinton/Biden foreign policy legacy. Joe Biden can help her do that but also on the upside for us Republicans, that helps solidify the new administration's tie to the old. It would help the Republicans promote that image.

BERMAN: Hey, Van, so Joe Biden is sitting down with Stephen Colbert later this week. There's been candidates who have sort of announced or half announced they're running for president on late night talk shows. At a minimum, he is going to have to address this in a more fulsome way than he has yet.

[11:20:00] JONES: I hope he gets a chance to talk about the controversy we talked about earlier with this clerk refusing to follow the Constitution.

One of the things I want to make sure we do point out, I'm a Christian. A lot of people are Christians. Joe Biden is a Christian. But he also recognizes the dignity of all human beings. Some people are trying to portray this clerk as Dr. King in prison. She's much more like George Wallace breaking the law by standing in the schoolhouse door trying to keep black children from entering schools. That's the kind of law breaker she is.

I hope Joe Biden, when he does come out, will say something about the fact that we all have to respect each other. We have to respect the Supreme Court and we should respect everyone's right to be married in this country.

BERMAN: Van Jones and Amanda Carpenter, great to have with us.

AT THIS HOUR, we have breaking news on the political and foreign policy front that will interest these two folks.

Senator Ron Wyden has announced his support for the White House nuclear deal with Iran.

BOLDUAN: It's the 41st vote in the Senate. That number not just any number. That's a key number. That's a key vote because it now means the Democrats can hold a filibuster -- they can filibuster, they can hold off a final up-or-dawn vote on the deal, sparing President Obama a potential embarrassment on this. CNN's Jim Acosta is joining us now.

This is just coming in, Jim. What are you hearing? What's the very latest? What is Ron Wyden's reasoning as well?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John and Kate. This is a big deal for President Obama because all along, all summer long, the White House and Democrats in the Senate, they've been counting votes and they have been trying to get to some magic numbers, one to be able to sustain a filibuster if the president had to be forced to defend this agreement on the floor of the Senate through his Democrats there. That was going to be a tough spectacle. All along they knew that they had enough Democrats in the Senate to essentially sustain the president's veto. It is expected that Republicans were going to try to pass a resolution of disapproval of the Iran nuclear deal sponsored by Senator Bob Corker, the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Earlier this summer, they got the votes to sustain that veto but just this morning Senator Ron Wyden became the 41st Democrat to support this Iran nuclear deal and so that means that they can block this from even coming up for a vote, this resolution of disapproval. That's a big deal for the president it not have to use his veto pen. Ron Wyden, like a lot of other Democrats, are saying that essentially this is the best deal that they can get right now, that diplomacy has to be given a chance when it comes to keeping Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, and so a big deal for this president, big deal for Democrats this morning.

Now, we should add the caveat, all 41 of these Democrats have to vote to keep this from happening, to filibuster this resolution of disapproval. We'll be watching to make sure all 41 of those votes are delivered for this president. Not a done deal yet, but a big development at the White House.

BERMAN: No, and that's key, Jim Acosta.

Thank you for being with us, Jim.

Big news. 41 is a big number. Just because they support the deal doesn't mean necessarily that they would support a filibuster. There are people who may want a vote, a recorded vote, in the Senate --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: To be on the record. And for anyone who has covered politics in Capitol Hill, you can't make the determination until the last vote is cast.

BERMAN: But I bet there's smiles behind Jim Acosta at the White House.

All right, shake up in the Catholic Church, making it cheaper and easier to get a marriage annulment. But not everyone happy with the pope's decision. Ahead, the backlash inside the church.

BOLDUAN: And blindside attack. A high school referee slammed to the ground. His back turned. Do the players now face criminal charges?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:27:15] BOLDUAN: New this morning, the pope shaking up the Catholic Church it appears once again with major announcement. He wants to make it easier for married couples to be able to get an annulment. Starting December 8th, annulments will be free and must be completed within 45 days. That's a big change. He's eliminating a second review by clergy before a marriage can be nullified. He's also giving bishops the ability to fast track, essentially, and grant them in certain circumstances if there's abuse or an extramarital affair.

BERMAN: In the past, the pope has expressed concern annulments can drag on for years and cost a lot of money and as a result in some cases be more available to the rich than the poor. You know how much this pope cares about the poor.

Joining us is CNN religion commentator, Father Edward Beck; and Rose Sweet, author of "The Catholic Divorce Survival Guide."

Father Beck, let me start with you.

The nuts and bolts of this as to what is changed right now, essentially Catholics who want to be part of the church, a full part of the church but want to no longer continue their marriage they're in, they have an easier path to do both.

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: Right. And what it says is that the marriage was never validly contracted. There's still no such thing as divorce for the Catholic Church. What the annulment says, did you not have what was needed at the time you contracted the vow in order to do it, so the marriage is null and void, always has been, and the annulment says that's the verification of it.

BOLDUAN: Rose, you wrote "The Catholic Survival Guide to Divorce." Practically speaking, what do you think of these changes?

ROSE SWEET, AUTHOR: Well, I actually don't think the changes are that sweeping. It makes a good news story, but, for instance, right now, if you can't afford to pay the fee at your local tribunal, you don't have to. Canon law already provides for that. And many dioceses already have waived the fees. So there's a lot to discuss here, including the fact that this does not make it easier to get a divorce. It makes it easier to get an annulment.

BERMAN: Well, as Father Beck points out, divorce still isn't something that the church recognized here.

But the pope, as he has done in many cases, isn't radically changing saying something we disapproved of before, we now approve of but he's changing at least the tone a little bit, Father Beck. Even though this is something that's controversial within the church, still a conservative organization, there's an American cardinal in Rome putting out missives saying the pope can't go ahead and do this.

BECK: What's interesting is he's decentralizing it from Rome and some bishops don't like that. They like it centered in Rome. He's saying, you don't have to appeal to the Vatican if you want an appeal. Go through the local diocese. And he's giving the bishops power to decide on their own in certain cases, not even going before a tribunal. So that's kind of taking the power of the tribunal, the power of Rome away and saying you make the decisions as bishops. Some are saying, well, it's going to be too easy. A bishop is not trained in Canon law.