Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Calls for Carson to Leave Race for Muslim Comments; CAIR Asks Carson to Withdraw During New Conference; Congressman Will Not Attend Pope's Address. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired September 21, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: That was awesome.

Brian, many thanks to you.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan starts right now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: No apology from Ben Carson, not even close. He says he doesn't to want see a Muslim from president. Any minute, one group will call on Carson so drop out of the race. We'll take it live.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Showing more humor and heart seems to be working for Hillary Clinton, now bouncing back in the polls.

And wait till you hear what Joe Biden just said. His strongest signal yet about his chances of jumping in the race for the White House.

BERMAN: The mother and boyfriend accused of killing Baby Doe facing a judge for the first time. Why the suspect thought the little girl was possessed by demons.

BOLDUAN: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman.

This morning, the race for president taking a sharp turn in religious direction. Republican Ben Carson flatly stating his view that no Muslim should be in the White House. He said he won't vote for a Muslim. In an interview with "The Hill," he says whoever takes the White House should be sworn in on a stack of Bibles, not a Koran.

Any minute the nation's prominent Muslim rights organization is set to fire back.

BOLDUAN: The Council on American Islamic Relations, known as CAIR, is set to hold a press conference any minute. You see there's a live camera there waiting for them. Leaders there have already called on Ben Carson to withdrawal from the presidential race in light of his comments. We'll bring you these comments live as soon as they begin.

But first, let's remind you of what sparked all of this. Ben Carson sparking outrage in his comments he made to Chuck Todd on "Meet the Press" yesterday. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, NBC HOST, MEET THE PRESS: Do you believe Islam is consistent with the Constitution?

DR. BEN CARSON, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I don't. I do not. I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.

TODD: And would you ever consider voting for a Muslim for Congress?

CARSON: Congress is a different story, but it depends on who that Muslim is and what their policies are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Let's bring in CNN's senior political reporter, Nia-Malika Henderson.

Nia, what is the fallout going to be? Ben Carson, as John points out, he's not backing down.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: He's not backing down. His aides aren't backing down either. They're saying this is Ben Carson telling it like he believes it is, believes it should be. He's always been on this sort of crusade against what he sees as political correctness. What is interesting if you had talked to his advisers maybe two weeks ago, they thought that sort of a new Ben Carson was emerging. He had said things in the past, one of which was gay people -- people go into prison and they turn gay. He said, for instance, that he thought Barack Obama was a psychopath. So, he said some sort of off-color, odd things in the past, but his campaign had always said he left that part of his political persona behind him, but here we are again where he is sparking outrage. You've had other Republicans say, listen, what he said actually isn't consistent with the Constitution. Ted Cruz citing the Constitution, saying there is no religious litmus test for who should be president.

BERMAN: It's interesting, Nia, because now Carson's people, Armstrong, who we'll have on in a little bit, and also his campaign manager, put out a statement saying, what he was saying is he would not advocate for a Muslim in the White House. He would not vote for a Muslim. In a statement, it says, for the record, he would not advocate for the election of a Democrat either. I just wonder if this is splitting hairs. If this is a distinction without a difference, saying he could never vote for a Muslim but at the same time saying he's not opposed to -- I don't even know what the distinction is there. There should be a Constitutional ban on it?

HENDERSON: Yeah. It's hard to say what he means there. It seems like -- like you said, his advisers were trying to sort of soft pedal it or split hairs there, but then again, he, of course, came out and sort of doubled down. Even, I guess, is he now saying that, well, as long as they renounce Sharia Law, then maybe he would be OK with it. I don't think a Muslim American would have to renounce Sharia Law because it wouldn't likely be part of their belief system anyway. Ask Keith Ellison, who was sworn in, in 2011, on a Koran. He's in Congress now, as is Andre. It's odd. Carson sounds like someone who doesn't know any Muslim Americans, and Muslim Americans are 2.5 million people, people like Mohammed Ali. So it's just an odd thing. It comes at a time in his candidacy where we've seen him slip in polls a bit. Partly, I think partly because of his debate performance.

BOLDUAN: Nia, stick with us.

Let's bring in Armstrong Williams now. He's Ben Carson's business manager, a very close confidante of Dr. Carson.

Mr. Williams, thank you for joining us.

I want to get your take. We are waiting to hear from CAIR. We know they're going to call on Dr. Carson to withdraw from the race. What do you say to CAIR?

[11:05:17] ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, BEN CARSON'S BUSINESS MANAGER & SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: That's the beauty of America. Unlike other countries around the world, you don't get to protest your leaders. You don't get to protest things you disagree with. More power to them. Let them do what they need to do and we're going to have to do what we need to do.

BERMAN: So, Armstrong, help us understand because you and the campaign manager suggest the media is twisting Ben Carson's words here. I want to get a sense of exactly what he is against, exactly what he would not advocate. He said he would not advocate a Muslim in the White House. Does it go beyond that? Does he think Muslims should not be part of the judiciary either because judges -- they interpret the Constitution.

WILLIAMS: You know, Article VI of the Constitution, like all articles of the Constitution, applies only to the government. Amendments I through X applies to individual citizens, like all of us. That is why it is called the Bill of Rights. Dr. Carson was expressing his individual belief in terms of his rights. What he was expressing, which is very clear to most people, who wants to listen, is that he would not advocate a vote for someone who is Muslim as president of the United States. He was not talking about the judiciary -- let me finish. He was not talking about judiciary. He only expressed his personal belief and his deeply held feeling about what he felt about voting someone in the White House and what his preference and his choice would be, and that would not be someone who's Muslim.

BERMAN: Armstrong, stick around. We'll ask you again if that personal preference extends beyond the presidency.

We're also waiting on this news conference from CAIR.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Please, stay with us.

This news conference will begin any second. BOLDUAN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:10:33] BOLDUAN: Welcome back. We're awaiting, as you see right there, a press conference to begin at the Council on American Islamic Relations. They're going to be responding to comments by Dr. Ben Carson, obviously, the Republican presidential candidate when he said he would not advocate for a Muslim to be president of the United States. He's standing by those words. We're going to go to it as soon as it begins.

Let's continue our conversation we were having with Dr. Carson's business manager, Mr. Armstrong Williams, joining us once again.

Mr. Williams, thank you so much for obviously sticking with us.

You guys are sticking by with what you're saying. I want you to respond to what Ted Cruz has said in response to Dr. Carson's words. He says, "Do you know the Constitution specifies there shall be no religious test for public office. I am a Constitutionalist."

Ted Cruz disagrees with Dr. Carson. Why is Ted Cruz wrong?

WILLIAMS: This issue makes him very uncomfortable. Makes him very uneasy. They're putting their fingers in the wind, waving it, twisting it, trying to see which way the constituency is going. You see, Dr. Carson doesn't do that. He knows what he believes in his heart. You know what, it's not all about winning for Dr. Carson. Even if he loses the White House, at least he loses standing on the principle of what he believes in. There are some things you should be willing to die for. If you haven't found something to die for, then you have not lived. That's what separates people like Ted Cruz and others. He's not a politician.

BERMAN: Armstrong, we're going to ask you to stick around for one minute. The news conference at CAIR has begun. Let's listen.

NIHAD AWAD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN ISLAMIC RELATIONS: When I saw the news -- actually, I did not see it on TV. I saw an e- mail and I thought the e-mail could be an old e-mail stating something about years ago someone made the statement, but to my shock, it was a current presidential candidate. On national television stating that a Muslim cannot be a president of the United States. This was so shocking to us that we thought maybe we should tell the story of the Muslim community and also remind a presidential candidate, like Ben Carson, about a very important document in the United States. And that is the Constitution. The Constitution of the United States, which clearly states that -- and I have it here, "No religious test shall be ever required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States," in pure English. This cannot be misunderstood. It cannot be twisted around. This is a very clear language to all Americans, to all generations, irrespective of who they are. The protection of freedom of religion in America is a fundamental principle of our country. So, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, you're black, you're Brown, your white, if you are born in this country, if you uphold the Constitution, if you have the vision, if you fit to lead, you can lead irrespective of your faith tradition. Not long ago, some people thought that a Catholic cannot be a president, an African-American cannot be a president. They were wrong then, and they are wrong now.

And that's why we say, Mr. Ben Carson is wrong today to assume and say that American Muslims cannot be a president of the United States. His views are inconsistent with the United States Constitution. For that, we really urge politicians, the general population, community leaders, presidential candidates to repudiate his views. And we ask Mr. Ben Carson to withdraw from the presidential race because he's unfit to lead because his views are in contradiction with the United States Constitution.

Thank you.

And before -- before I finish, in anticipation of more attacks on Islam and the Muslim community, during the presidential campaign, and until it's over, we urge to use this as a teachable moment to learn about Islam from its original sources. So, we are re-launching our campaign to offer the public and presidential candidates to read about Islam from its original sources, mainly the Koran. We're providing copies of the Koran free of charge. It has the text and context with the original language of Arabic with English translation and the context in which the verses. We're offer this free of charge. We are asking people just to pay shipping and handling. They can view the website exPLOrethequran.com. Explorethequran.com.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's Q-U-R-A-N.

AWAD: Q-U- --

[11:15:47] BERMAN: You've been listening to Nihad Awad, the executive director of the Council on American Islamic Relations. He was saying that Ben Carson's comments, that he would not advocate for a Muslim in the White House, they are inappropriate and CAIR is calling on Ben Carson to drop out of the race, which he is not going to do.

Let's bring back Armstrong Williams, a close friend of Dr. Ben Carson, Carson's business manager.

Armstrong, you heard the statement from CAIR right there. Let me ask you this. There's anywhere between two and seven million Muslims in the United States right now, maybe 2.7 million, is one estimate I've seen. What would you say to those kids, kids born in America who happen to be Muslim, would you tell them Dr. Ben Carson -- what happens when Ben Carson becomes president, will he tell these Muslim kids, don't think you should grow up to become president of the United States?

WILLIAMS: Where was CAIR after 9/11 when there were those images of Muslim kids in the classroom rejoicing and cheering at the falling of those buildings and our men and women died? Where was CAIR? Where was CAIR when what happened at Ft. Hood, when someone in the name of Islam killed our innocent men and women. Where was CAIR? Where was CAIR with our journalists overseas being held in Iran, and Daniel Pearl who was beheaded? Did they have a press conference, condemning those actions and that kind of behavior? Where were they?

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: If you -- if you don't want to listen to CAIR, leave CAIR out of it and let's talk about the other folks who have spoken up over the last day. I just want to know, again, the parameters in how far Dr. Carson's beliefs go on this. And I want to know, and I think it's important, because if he is in the White House, he sends a message to the entire country, young and old, men and women, Muslim, Christian and Jew. Would he tell Muslim kids that he does not think they should grow up or could grow up to be president of the United States?

WILLIAMS: You know, I know this is a very sensitive issue for many people. Dr. Carson is a person who has a very strong belief system that is inclusive of everyone. And you don't arrive at these positions where you say honestly that you don't want to see a Muslim as president of the United States. In no way would he want to hurt or offend or make any child believe that they could grow up and not become president of the United States. That's not who he is. And we understand the perception -- more than a perception, that is a reality for children. It's not intended that way. As I mentioned earlier, when you see those images after 9/11 with those young kids cheering in that classroom, it reflects their parents. What we need to do is talk about how we can be more accountable in whatever we believe in. The Muslim community, many do it, some just don't do it enough, and talk about how the destructive tenets of Islam and Sharia Law have no regard for women and no respect for many Muslims who flee from these different parts of the world who come here to find a better way of life. While this is not easy, and his heart would go out to these kids, still because of how he feels in his heart about what it means when you're president of the United States, the kind of power and authority and how literally you can change the world, he has to come to the conclusion for what is best for America and because of his love for America that in his heart of hearts he could never advocate for a Muslim becoming president of the United States. He just can't.

BOLDUAN: And so in the here and now -- you've said before we went to commercial break, he's not a politician, he's not putting his facts to the political winds to test the political winds, but we need to be clear exactly then on what Mr. Carson believes. He say his intent is not to offend or hurt, but he does -- he does believe that there is an entire religion that he does not think has the equal -- should have equal rights in the United States.

[11:19:52] You call it equal rights. You call it religion. It's not religion. It's what an individual believes. What an individual believes impacts how America is governed and what we become as a nation. And while you may find that it's totally out of character for a presidential candidate to express these kinds of feelings, I don't think you realize there are many Americans, if they search their hearts, they believe the same thing. They don't want to believe it. When they look at the world and look at how Islam has become polluted, and in Europe and in the Middle East and around the world, it takes -- have you to take the time to pause and ask, what is happening to the world? Would we want to see this in America where people use as our -- -- use our freedoms and our rights, the fact that freedom of expression and freedom of movement and they use this against us. Dr. Carson does this not of dislike, not of disdain for someone, because he loves America so much, he feels you have to protect America from those that would want to destroy it because of what they believe in.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: But isn't that a vast generalization you wouldn't want anyone to use against Dr. Carson for anything that makes him unique? Isn't that a vast generalization to say that because of a radical sect of religion, you want to say not a single person of that faith, as John points out --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: 2.7 million people.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: -- should be allowed to hold this office.

WILLIAMS: That is their choice. That is the beauty --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: What's their choice?

WILLIAMS: Freedom to vote. It's their choice not to vote for Dr. Carson. And it's a small price he's willing to pay for what he believes and what he will not advocate.

BERMAN: Well, you say it's their choice not to vote for Dr. Carson. That, of course is a separate issue. What you were saying, what Dr. Carson is saying, is these people are not qualified, based on their religion belief, based on how they pray to God, not to be in the White House. Do you think all 2.7 million Muslims in America advocate those views that Dr. Carson finds objectionable, or is the mere adherence to any kind of Islam disqualifying?

WILLIAMS: Dr. Carson would not -- today, yesterday, or next week -- advocate having a Muslim in the White House as president of the United States. It is that simple. It is that clear. There's nothing else to discuss.

BOLDUAN: One thing we heard from CAIR right now is they would like everyone to learn more about the faith rather than hearing it in sound bites and hearing what they clearly disagree with. Do you think there's anything that Dr. Carson or you could hear from CAIR or could learn or study in the Koran that would change your views?

WILLIAMS: We're no longer interested in the rhetoric of CAIR and what they say. When they change their actions and their behaviors, what's going on in this world, in the -- is, beheading people, treating women like animals, disregarding life, beheading and killing homosexuals because of their choice. Are you kidding me? Show us this by your action and what you teach your children and how you respect life and how you respect individual freedom. There is not one Christian church, Jewish synagogue, that could be not in the Middle East but yet they come to our country and build them. Saudi Arabia wants to build 200 mosques in Europe. Are you can kidding me? We cannot have a church --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Armstrong, Armstrong, hang on --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: -- you can be beheaded or your life taken. What are you talking about?

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: What are you reading? What are you studying? Do you understand the world we're in? Do you understand the threat against America?

BOLDUAN: Right. But you are -- again, it's the difference between a radical sect of a religion and lumping them all together, lumping that radical sect in with the millions of other peaceful people who are practicing a faith. That's the distinctions a lot of folks scratching their heads about.

WILLIAMS: The distinction is, teach them to stop the behavior we see. Show us that you embrace the real Islam, what Islam is really about instead of --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: So, if they -- if they -- Armstrong, just to be clear --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: -- just to be clear, if a Muslim in America adheres to the Islam that Dr. Carson and you believe in, or somehow approve of, could that Muslim who believes in Dr. Carson's mandated Islam be president?

WILLIAMS: Dr. Carson is not comfortable advocating for a Muslim being president of the United States. Congress, state legislatures, judiciary, fine. The White House, unequivocally not.

BERMAN: OK. Again, another time, Armstrong, I would like to figure out how judges who interpret the Constitution are OK --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: -- but not the president.

We appreciate you coming on and sharing Dr. Carson's view here, which seems fairly --

BOLDUAN: It speaks for itself. (CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Armstrong Williams, thank you so much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

[11:25:05] BERMAN: Coming up for us, he is the people's pope, but now some people are calling him the problem pope, or worse. You hear words like Socialist, Marxist. Some Republicans not happy with the imminent papal arrival. Why he might bet a surprising reception on Capitol Hill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Pope Francis with a huge week. He's in Cuba this week, yes, his first trip there, but he's about to make his first trip ever to the United States of America. He arrives at Andrews Air Base tomorrow. Then he will speak before Congress on Thursday. Like I said, a big trip, a historic meeting with the president, and then an historic speech before Congress.

BOLDUAN: Some Republicans -- speaking of Congress, some Republicans are worried about what he might say in that historic speech. The pope has been outspoken on some topics that could seem -- that are very politically divided in Washington, especially, guns, immigration, capitalism and, of course, there is climate change. One Congressman, one Republican Congressman, Paul Gosar, of Arizona, says he's not going to be attending the speech because of the pope's views on just that, climate change.

Let's talk about this with CNN religion commentator, Father Edward Beck, and CNN senior political reporter, Manu Raju.

Manu, tell us, what are Republicans saying? You've spoken with a lot of them. What are Republicans saying ahead of this historic speech before a joint session of Congress?

[11:30:01] MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Look, Kate, overall, most of them are pretty enthusiastic about a very historic visit here, the first ever address by a pope to a joint session of Congress.