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At This Hour

Congressman Will Not Attend Pope's Address; Baby Doe's Mother, Boyfriend Appear in Court; Clinton Poll Numbers Rise, Biden Comments on Run; Carly Fiorina Pushes Business Credentials, Draws Criticism Trump; Others. Aired 11:30-12p ET

Aired September 21, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00] MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Look, Kate, overall, most of them are pretty enthusiastic about a very historic visit here, the first ever address by a pope to a joint session of Congress. But many, many Republicans are very leery about his political views, some you just mentioned. Namely, climate change is the reason the Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar is not attending. Other issues as well, gun -- he's been critical of gun manufacturers. He's talked more openly about immigration, criticizing capitalism. When I talk to a lot of these Republicans, they say, look, we hope the pope comes in and makes a strong address that will be broadcast worldwide, but we want him to stick to issues of spirituality, not politics, because given that audience that he has, he'll have a huge opportunity to drive the national conversation. And when the conversation is about a lot of issues that Republicans don't want to talk about, they hope that the pope strays away from those topics. We'll see how political the pope gets. One thing Republicans will be watching very closely.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It's interesting, Father Beck, because where does politics and religion end? He's put out an encyclical about climate change. He's talking about climate change all over the world right now. Does the Vatican, typically, care about offending a host nation or a group of politicians within a host nation when the pope visits, arrives and speaks?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: I don't think they want to offend anybody, but they would say, how can you not talk about these issues in such an address? These are not political issues for the pope. These are issues of the Gospel. Care of the poor, care of the environment, gun violence even. These are Jesus issues, if you will, for this pope. They're not political issues. How can you separate the two, is what the response would be.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: It's interesting. I heard Chris Christie -- the pope, of course, has come out with improved relations between the United States and Cuba. He helped orchestrate the thaw. Chris Christie was against that. He says papal infallibility is on religious matters, not political matters.

BECK: Of course, papal infallibility has only been invoked twice in the whole history of the papacy. Not everything the pope says is infallible. This pope, especially, in all of his humility admits he makes mistakes all the time. He went off the script yesterday when he was speaking to bishops and priests and religious. I love when he goes off the script because he's the most interesting. When he reads those long homilies, he's kind of dull, to tell you the truth. When he speaks off the script, he gives his heart. He said to those bishops and priests, get away from your wealth, embrace poverty, don't hold forgiveness from anybody. How dare you hold forgiveness from anybody. I thought his comments yesterday when he went off script -- now, unfortunately, when he comes to Washington, he's going to give that address in English.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: That's when he doesn't go off script.

BECK: It's not a good language for him. He's going to be tied to his text. We are hoping, some of us are hoping, he breaks into Spanish and maybe will say some things like he did yesterday when he went off script. That would make that address really interesting because he has a lot of deeply held beliefs on these topics.

BERMAN: Pope Francis unplugged.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Building the anticipation, headed to the United States.

Father Beck, great to see you.

Manu, you'll be busy. Great to see you as well. Thank you.

RAJU: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, he reportedly thought a little girl was possessed by demons, a child of Satan, so he killed a little girl that became known as Baby Doe. Just moments ago, he and the little girl's mother, you saw right there, they appeared in court for the first time. We'll see what happened.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:37:18] BOLDUAN: It was an emotional morning in a Massachusetts courtroom as new details in the death of the girl who became known as Baby Doe, as new details were read aloud. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: That's clearly someone who didn't -- couldn't handle what was going on in the courtroom, and she's saying, "Rot in hell," right there.

This man, Michael McCarthy, showed no emotion as he faced a judge for the first time. He's charged with the murder of the 2-year-old, Baby Doe, who is now known, her real name is Bella Bond. We're learning disturbing details about his obsession with the occult, locking the girl in a closet for up to an hour at times, claiming she was possessed by demons.

BERMAN: How awful. Her mother, Rachelle Bond, is charged with accessory after the fact. You see right there, she hung her head and was crying at the details of the death of and disposal of her daughter's body were read aloud.

Our Jean Casarez has been following the latest. She's monitoring this hearing and joins us now.

Jean, this is awful.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So emotional and so many facts, according to the prosecutor, that we did not know at this point. And the mother is being held on $1 million bail. The boyfriend, Michael McCarthy, no bail at all.

This morning, the prosecutor said this all came to light very recently. Although this country fell in love with this little girl and the forensic animation picture that was drawn of her months ago, 85 days, in fact, but the prosecutor said recently a friend who had lived with the couple, said to the mother -- because the mother said, I'm not going to do drugs any more -- he said, that's wonderful, you'll get your daughter back from the Department of Family and Children Services. She said, my daughter is dead. And she broke down saying that it was one night in May that Bella didn't want to go to bed, so Michael McCarthy said, I'll go into her bedroom, I'll calm her down. Then the mother said she went into that bedroom shortly after that.

Listen to what the prosecutor said today in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID DEAKIN, ASSISTANT SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: She went to her daughter and picked her up and she told police that she knew at that point that her daughter was dead. She asked Mr. McCarthy what he had done. He did not tell her. But he said, she was a demon anyway, it was her time to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: So, they executed a search warrant. In that home, they found books and different things about demonizing and being possessed. And the friend who had lived with them said that he had seen her being put in a closet for 30 minutes to an hour because it was believed she was possessed.

But here's why the mother is charged with accessory of fact after the murder. She put the body in a plastic bag, put it in the refrigerator.

(CROSSTALK) BERMAN: Oh, no. So, she's accused --

(CROSSTALK)

[11:39:57] CASAREZ: And a contractor's bag was used. And then the body -- weights were put in the bag. The body was then put into the shore, allegedly believing it would never be found.

BERMAN: No end to the horror here.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Jean Casarez, thanks.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: New comments from Joe Biden just in. Why he says a run for the White House might not be feasible. New poll numbers that show a surprising turn for Hillary Clinton.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: New developments in the race for president. The new CNN/ORC poll shows Hillary Clinton is building her lead, at 42 percent in the latest CNN poll. 57 percent if Vice President Joe Biden stays out of the race. Both of those numbers higher than a few weeks ago.

And while Joe Biden's wife says she would not stand in the way of the run, Biden himself dropped a surprising "F" bomb when talking about the race but this time the "F" word was "feasible."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's not quite there yet. And it may not get there in time to make it feasible to be able to run and succeed because there are certain windows that will close. But if that's it, that's it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: But if that's it, that's it.

Let's talk about this. CNN political commentators, Errol Louis; and here also with us, Republican strategist, Josh Holmes.

So, Errol, you heard Joe Biden right there. There have been hints one way or another from insiders saying he's more likely than not to jump in and then you hear this from Joe Biden, the most recent thing. Is this Joe Biden saying, I'm not going to run?

[11:45:14] ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'm sure Joe Biden's team would say the same thing. Don't think it's definitive, to answer your question. This was almost always about logistics, can you get the money, the organization, get on the ballot in all of the states, can you put a ground operation together even though others have a multiyear advantage over you? Can you really be competitive in South Carolina, Nevada and so forth? So, that was always an important question. And a lot of the other stuff has been window dressing. The emotional question, personal question, very important, but equally important and outside of his control is, can he really get everything together?

BERMAN: When he uses words like "feasible," Josh, it seems to me a lot of people leaking stuff to the press about where Joe Biden's mind is, they're further along than Joe Biden is. Every time he speaks at length, he seems to be saying, whoa, hold on there.

JOSH HOLMES, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I agree with Errol. I think the logistical piece is a large decision the vice president and his team have to make, whether it's even possible. I think it's largely reflective of where the Democratic primary electorate is right now. They're not totally comfortable with their choices. Someone like Joe Biden, who is very captivating to voters in the past, is looming large. The decision that he's not quite comfortable making yet could have a huge impact on ultimately where they land.

BOLDUAN: Josh, I've got to ask -- and, Errol, weigh in on this as well. On the Republican side there are some big headlines coming out. Trump is on top, down by eight from the latest poll. Fiorina is in second. She's up 12 points from the last poll to 15 percent. And then look way down -- you need to squint, actually, to see it. That's Scott Walker. That's not a typo. He's an asterisk, which means he's less than half of 1 percent. It's hard to say because it's so tough to get there. Josh, what happened to Scott Walker?

HOLMES: Well, it's not been a good couple of months, that's for sure. I think the recent numbers are most reflective of how he did in the debate last week. With more than 24 million people watching, it makes more than a rumble. Carly Fiorina did quite well, Marco Rubio did well, and you see their numbers moving up. Walker's struggling right now. He's got to figure out where his footing was that made him a compelling candidate in the spring.

BERMAN: The body language at the debate -- we were out there in California, the body language among the Walker people not good, to say the least. They look scared at this point.

Errol, is there any hope to turn it around? I suppose this is a lesson. At these debates, you can't wait for the question.

LOUIS: There's certainly that, the theatrics of that. He got outmaneuvered by everybody else on the stage. I think there's a deeper policy question here because Scott Walker, what was his big economic plan? He wants to eliminate the National Labor Relations Board. We remember, we should never forget, the Republican Party, you've got your Sunday school Republicans and you've got your country club Republicans. Scott Walker came forward and was literally and almost formally blessed by the Koch brothers. He says, I'm going to carry the water of the 1 percent. I'm going to push their issues, things like the death tax that they call it, the National Labor Relations Board. This is not what people who are hurting, the people supporting Trump, are looking for some kind of help. These are middle income, middle class, really hurting. The Walker message won't resonate with them. That's at least part of why he has faded away in the polls.

BOLDUAN: We'll see, though. There's still time. We'll see. And an asterisk at this point when you've been on the main stage is not good news.

BERMAN: Remember, we learned, the Republican Party may not have an undercard.

BOLDUAN: An undercard.

BERMAN: -- in the next debate.

BOLDUAN: Next time around.

Josh, great to see you.

Errol, thank you.

HOLMES: Thanks.

BOLDUAN: Of course, a reminder, the first Democratic presidential debate you will see right here on CNN. That's three weeks away, Tuesday, October 13th. Be there or be square.

(LAUGHTER)

Still ahead, Carly Fiorina, she did well in that debate. She is pushing her business credentials, a reason she would be a good leader of this country. She's also drawing criticism from Donald Trump and many others. He calls her record a failure. Is he right? We'll dig deeper on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:10] Now today, Donald Trump hammering away at Carly Fiorina's business record in a Twitter rant and also on the "Today" show. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION (voice-over): And it is robotic, and you look at it, and it is robotic. But I think people will understand her soon. But when they look at the record of tremendous failure -- look, she took Lucent into the ground, and H.P. into the ground and destroyed it. I think that -- you know, and then she ran for the Senate in a race that should have been won and lost because she did so badly as a business leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Now, Fiorina has surged in the polls since her debate performance last week, and she used the CEO experience and has multiple times on the trail as proof that she can run the country. But as head of Hewlett-Packard, she did push through a business acquisition considered one of the worst in the tech sector, with H.P.'s stock falling 45 percent on her watch. Let's discuss this and more. Global economics analyst, Rana Foroohar,

here.

Rana, you heard Donald Trump there. Is Donald Trump right?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Yes, and I hate to say it, but, yes, it is maybe one of the truest things that Donald Trump has said. And Carly Fiorina's record is spotty. H.P. was a great company. It was probably the original Silicon Valley garage company, a great innovator. She came in, and not only did she use mergers as way to get the quick-fix growth, but many feel that she sort of disembodied the research culture, and got rid of the R&D, and bolstered the gains with short-term gains rather than long-term innovations.

BERMAN: And she said that all of the tech companies were failing.

(CROSSTALK)

FOROOHAR: That is true.

BERMAN: And yet, H.P. underperformed all of the other companies at this time.

FOROOHAR: And it is '99 and the dot-com bubble was about to burst, and not a great time for tech, but IBM and others fell, but not as far as H.P., and Lucent where she was a rising star, the stock prices went up, but there was a lot of funny accounting going on at that company, and debt financing, and loaning the money to customers to buy the equipment, and that has gotten criticism.

[11:55:22] Rana, Carly was asked about that and a strong defense of the record at the debate, and listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLY FIORINA, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER CEO, HEWLETT- PACKARD: I led Hewlett-Packard through a difficult time, and the worst technology recession in 25 years, and we doubled the size of the company, and we quadrupled the top the line rate and tripled the rate of innovation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Is she right?

FOROOHAR: Well, you know what, you can spin the numbers many ways. The profits were down on her watch, and the share price of H.P. went down 50 percent, and most people in tech business e feel it is a failure.

BERMAN: And top line growth is not the same as the bottom line.

FOROOHAR: That's right.

(LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And you can hear Donald Trump talking about it.

BOLDUAN: Which a lot of candidates do.

BERMAN: And yes, obviously, it is politics.

And you can hear Donald Trump talking about it.

FOROOHAR: No, more spin than execution, I'd say.

BOLDUAN: And she is going to be getting more scrutiny, because she is higher in the polls.

BERMAN: Absolutely.

FOROOHAR: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: Good to see you, Rana.

FOROOHAR: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

And thank you all for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield will start after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:10] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to "Legal View."