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At This Hour

CDC Advisers Meet Ahead of Critical Vote on J&J Vaccine; Witnesses: "Chaotic" Scene As NC Deputies Shot At Andrew Brown Jr.; Bills Aiming to Curb Voting Rights Introduced in Almost Every State. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2021 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And fight climate change, and how humanity affects this planet.

[11:00:04]

That thanks done to the research in space, NASA and its partners are better able to assess the health of the planet.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I'm going to hold my breath for that one, Jim.

All right, be sure to tune in tonight, everyone. We've got a special climate crisis town hall. Dana Bash hosts. It's 10:00 Eastern tonight.

Thanks to all of you for joining us today and all week. Have a good weekend. We'll see you Monday. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

AT THIS HOUR WITH KATE BOLDUAN starts right.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you so much for joining us.

At this hour, CDC advisors are meeting to decide the fate of Johnson & Johnson's COVID-19 vaccine in this country. The board is expected to hold a critical vote today on whether J&J shots should start back up after a ten-day pause. That pause coming after fewer than a dozen people developed serious blood clots following the vaccine.

But remember, that is fewer than a dozen out of almost seven million J&J doses that have been administered. It was and is still extremely rare.

If the injections do resume, should they come with restrictions and warnings? Now, we'll find out today and today's decision is also a critical moment in the vaccine rollout. More than 89 million Americans, about 27 percent of the population are new fully vaccinated.

But the daily number of shots in arms is dropping. CDC data shows the seven day average of new vaccine doses administered has fallen below three million shots per day for the first time in more than two weeks. What does that mean? Is this the moment to have a serious conversation about where we are in this pandemic? And how close we are to getting back to something resembling normal?

Let's get to it, starting with that meeting getting under way as we speak to decide what happens next with the J&J vaccine.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is watching all of this. She's joining us now.

What are you hearing about this meeting today, Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Kate, this is a meeting of CDC advisors. The CDC generally typically does do what the advisors say. What our sources are telling us is that this group will say keep Johnson & Johnson's vaccine in distribution. But let's take a look at some of the caveats.

Keep it in distribution. Maybe there should be a warning on it telling people that, hey, there have been a number of people, as you said a very small number of people who got blood clots and maybe there should be a restriction.

Everyone who got the clots so far that we know of has been under the age of 48. So maybe if you're under a certain age, you shouldn't be taking this.

Let's take a look again at some of those numbers. So, so far, the FDA and the CDC said that there have been seven cases of blood clots in the brain, based on what has been happening. And also that there are likely to be more cases reported to day at this meeting.

And we've already heard Texas and Oregon officials have each reported a new case this week.

And, Kate, I want to be really clear about something. When this vaccine goes back into distribution, a reasonable person could say hey, you know what? I don't want to take this vaccine. It's got -- it's been linked to blood clots. I could take Pfizer or Moderna. They haven't been linked to clots. Their efficacy is better. Pfizer and Moderna are two shots, but that's okay with me. I like them better.

And a reasonable person could say I want Johnson & Johnson. I understand the risks. I understand this very small number of people have gotten clots. But I want a one shot, one and done.

Either way, that goes a reasonable decisions to make.

BOLDUAN: And also on this front, the CEO of Moderna is out talking about his expectation for a booster shot for their vaccine. What's the time line for that?

COHEN: Right. So they're talking about maybe by late summer, they'll have the booster shot ready. Pfizer has also talked about a booster shot. What's going on here is the shots were not designed to fight against the South African variant. That variant managed to skirt the vaccine a bit. The efficacy isn't so fabulous. And so, there is a booster needed. It's thinking the boosters will

come out in the current months. It will cover that and other variants.

BOLDUAN: Oh, interesting.

So, as we mentioned, this meeting is getting under way. Elizabeth is watching it closely and we'll bring us all the headlines that come out of it -- Elizabeth, thank you so much.

In the meantime, joining me now is CNN medical analyst, Dr. Leana Wen, former Baltimore City health commissioner. She is part of the J&J trial, received the J&J vaccine as part of it.

It's good to see you, Dr. Wen. Thank you for being here.

What's your view on this? Do you think that the J&J vaccine should be put back on the market?

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I do, Kate. So I think the pause, the first place was the right decision. We're not talking about a run of the mill blood clot here.

Some people said, well, women on birth control get blood clots. This is not a regular blood clot. This is an extremely rare blood clot in the brain combined with another very rare condition of thrombocytopenia or low platelet counts. The combination is very, very, very rare. And so -- and very serious.

So, I do think that initial pause was the right thing to study this, to understand how common this really is.

[11:05:06]

And it seems like right now, there have been maybe a handful of new cases that may be linked. But it is it still extremely rare. And at this point, the CDC really needs to think about the continued cost of inaction, because there are plenty of people who otherwise might have received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine who are not receiving any vaccine. And there is a real harm to that action not only in the U.S., but globally.

BOLDUAN: I've been thinking about the J&J shot just in general. It's unique. It's one shot. The way it can be handled and managed and how it can be handled is different.

And I've been wondering, I'd like your take on it, do you think the J&J shot from the get go should have been more targeted? Not open for debate, more targeted kind of shot to specific communities? Specific geographic areas?

WEN: It's a good question. I actually don't think so. And here's the reason why.

There is already this narrative that is not true that somehow Johnson & Johnson is the inferior vaccine. If it is seen as well, maybe this vaccine is less efficacious and we're now targeting it to certain disadvantaged groups, it could then fuel a narrative that's really not the right one that somehow we want to give some communities an inferior vaccine. And that could really fuel mistrust in the entire profession of medicine and public health.

And so I do think that we need to state the benefits of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. It's one dose. So it is for some communities, for example, individuals experiencing homelessness or migrant farmers, it may have a benefit there.

But also, think college students. Or people with needle phobia. They don't have time to make a second appointment who are uncertain about getting any vaccine at all. Convincing people to take one vaccine is much easier to convince them to take two vaccines. So, I think there need to be a real risk-benefit discussion of the benefits of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine when it comes to convenience.

BOLDUAN: So interesting. And, look, we know vaccine hesitancy is already a problem. This will on some level is going to add to it, because just as you mention, there is a false narrative about -- it is inferior shot. What will you tell? What do you tell your patients when they come in about this particular vaccine?

WEN: Well, some is going to depend on what the CDC decides today as if they think there is a warning, then we should issue that warning and discuss the extraordinary benefit of the vaccine versus the very rare but serious side effect. I think that's one.

Another is if the CDC comes out to say people below a certain age, for example, should be recommended Pfizer or Moderna instead, then we tell them that. But I think at the end of the day what we need to emphasize is that pause was taken because our federal health officials prioritized safety above all else.

I and many others think the pause is too long and this had other effects in terms of -- in terms of not having vulnerable people access the vaccine. In the meantime, but in any case, one should be able to question that caution and safety was the first priority.

I think that should add even more -- it should give us more confidence in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, because over 100 million people received those vaccines. And there have been no red flag safety signals. If there were, our federal health officials that are that cautious would have certainly caught them.

BOLDUAN: Elizabeth was just reporting about how Moderna's CEO is talking about having a booster shot ready relatively soon. It has me curious, what does it mean if people don't show up to get the booster shot? If you got to go through it again to get another appointment to get back in to get another shot? Does it mean we're threatened to slide back into the pandemic yet again?

WEN: Right now, we have no evidence that we really need a booster shot. We might, in time for two reasons. It might be that immunity wanes over time, and it might also be because new variants are developing, and we need boosters that target the variants. But right now, the vaccine that we have seem to be very effective and they seem to have long lasting effects.

And so I think it's early for us to be speculating that this booster is going to be needed and if people don't get it, they're going to be consequences. Actually, studies are showing that the idea of a booster shot is fueling vaccine hesitancy in certain groups. That certain people are saying, well, I don't want to get any vaccine because I may need to get a booster shot.

So, I think we should talk about the booster as a good thing that in time it may provide additional immunity and protection for those who want it. But I don't think we should be messaging that. You need a booster shot because we don't know and may have this adverse infect of worsening confidence in vaccines.

BOLDUAN: The psychology of vaccination efforts is becoming more and more fascinating as you're pointing out.

Thank you so much, Doctor. It's good to see you.

[11:10:01]

Coming up for us, protesters demand answers after the fatal shooting of a North Carolina man by sheriff's deputies. Why officials say they can't -- cannot release body camera footage of what happened.

Plus, a historic week for space exploration, SpaceX successfully sending up four astronauts just morning. Helicopter flying on Mars. What could be next?

We'll talk to one of the engineers that helped make history this week.

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PROTESTERS: No justice! No peace! No justice! No peace! No justice! No peace! No justice! No peace!

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BOLDUAN: Second night of protests in community grieving and now demanding answers. This time we're talking about Elizabeth City, North Carolina, after the fatal shooting of Andrew Brown Jr.

[11:15:05]

There is so much still not known about what happened here.

But neighbors who witnessed the encounter with police described it as chaotic. One thing we have not seen yesterday is body camera video.

Joining me right now is CNN's Brian Todd. He is in Elizabeth City. He's been talking to a lot of people there.

Brian, why are they saying they can't release the body camera video? What are you hearing there? BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what the local D.A.s were saying

is they can't release it because it has to be pursuant to a court order that North Carolina law, they're not allowed to release it unless there say court order to do so. Several entities in town are petitioning for that court order. So there is significant pressure on the D.A.'s and on the sheriff here, Tommy Wooten (ph), to release that body camera footage.

Look, it's a question of transparency. The Brown family wants that. The local community wants that. They're demanding some answers here.

They feel that they're not getting the answers. They believe that a lot of the answers are going to come from that body camera footage. And, you know, as history tells us, a lot of answers do tend to come from the body camera footage once released.

One of the family counsels, Harry Daniels, spoke to CNN about their need for transparency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRY DANIELS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: A lot of speculation is going on. We are asking for answers, account accountability and transparency. This is something that we are demanding immediate release. We know that Mr. Brown was shot and killed. He was unarmed at the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: And so, it took us a while yesterday to piece together other details given the fact we don't have that body camera footage yet. We were told by witness there's were multiple deputies on the scene and multiple deputies fired at him. That was confirmed by the share you have who said three deputies who are under administrative leave.

That also came from the family of Andrew Brown who told us that. But there are multiple deputies on administrative leave, and multiple deputies fired at Andrew Brown. But as you heard, Harry Daniels say and we heard family members say that they strongly believe that Andrew Brown was unarmed at the time of this shooting -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Brian, thank you very much for that.

Joining me right now for more on this is Anthony Barksdale. He's a CNN law enforcement analyst, former acting Baltimore police commissioner.

Thanks for being here.

With what you're hearing from what Brian is reporting on the ground, what we learned about -- the little we learned about what happened in Elizabeth City, what do you think we could learn from the body camera here? What would you like to see in that video?

ANTHONY BARKSDALE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I would love to see the officer's actions. Why have body cams if you're not going to release the video? The Daunte Wright incident the new standard, releasing video, whether it's good or bad to the public. The citizens, the family, their lawyer, they are right. We all need to see the video.

BOLDUAN: North Carolina, Brian Todd is pointing out, North Carolina is a state that doesn't allow police or cities to -- or like city officials, to release body camera or dash camera video on their own because of state law. And the state law specifically says in part, recordings and -- in the custody of the law enforcement agency shall only be released pursuant to a court order. You have to go to court. You have to go before a judge to get this released.

What do you think of that? Who is that protecting?

BARKSDALE: It makes no sense in this day and age. We're at a point where across this nation, citizens were skeptical about police involved shootings. Get the court order. What is the holdup? I don't understand it anymore.

They need to change the law. This is about transparency. This is about trust. The department works with the people.

Get -- they cannot be an entity where they set their own rules and hide behind laws, that they helped create. Let's change the laws in North Carolina and get the people this video. Somebody should be in front of the judge right now giving the order. We have to get this out to the people.

BOLDUAN: Look, the overall -- this gets at kind of the overall concern over use of force. We don't know how many shots were fired. There is so much that we don't know about this exact case, but the overall use of force.

How it seems that shooting is too often the first option, especially when it comes to police encounters with African-Americans. Do you see that? Why is that the case?

BARKSDALE: I absolutely see it. We're seeing now. We're having incident after incident where if there is a black man behind the wheel, things are going wrong.

Okay. If you got a warrant and you're behind the wheel, then let's use critical thinking. If we can't affect the arrest without putting the public or even you the one with the one in danger, don't do it.

[11:20:04]

So, we escalate. You have officers escalating. And these incidents are going bad. And police executives, we've got to get back to training and critical thinking.

It's a clear pattern. It involves minorities and we need to admit it. Admit it. We have a problem.

BOLDUAN: I want to play for you something that the police chief of Madison, Wisconsin, I spoke with him yesterday. He told me something he is trying. How he is trying. When you talk about training and grief thinking, one thing he is trying to do differently in his department.

Let me play Shon Barnes for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHON BARNES, CHIEF OF POLICE MADISON, WI: We're looking at things in our police department where we'll have mental officers, mental professionals who will go on the crisis calls. If you look at the George Floyd incident, obviously, he was having issues that day. Who would have been best served to protect him and make sure he survived that incident? That's something that police chiefs should be focused on today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Look, Commissioner, that may have nothing to do with the Elizabeth City case. Broadly speaking, do you think that is part of the solution?

BARKSDALE: I think we have to break out of cognitive bias in policing. Think out of the box. And I have no issues with that chief just said. If you can form a package if, can you bring in it others that can help calm a situation, keep someone alive, then let's go for it, because this isn't working.

And he mentioned Mr. Floyd and that is still heartbreaking to me. But maybe a specialist could have helped the situation. But would Chauvin have called a specialist? I don't think so.

So whatever you decide to do, it has to be well thought out. It has to be realistic. And it has to be effective.

BOLDUAN: Anthony Barksdale, thank you.

BARKSDALE: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up, there was no widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election. We know this. But that has not stopped many Republicans in so many states from trying to search for it.

One Republican found some. But it comes with a twist.

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[11:27:18]

BOLDUAN: Surprising admission in Pennsylvania. From one of the Republican state representatives who spent months searching for widespread voter fraud and helped lead the charge in that state objecting to the election results, he now has just admitted to "Pennsylvania Capital-Star' that the little fraud that occurred there was committed by Republicans.

In the most unsurprising twist of this, Seth Grove, does not see how this contradicts, it appears, and undermines the big lie they keep pushing. So that's in Pennsylvania. But across the country, as you know now, Republicans are still pushing

hundreds of measures to further restrict access to voting after the 2020 election.

According to the Brennan Center for Justice, nearly 400 bills are in the works or have been passed in 47 states. This week, a new bipartisan grew is trying to fight back calling on the business community to join in and speak up more, no the less, about the critical issue.

Their letter saying, in part, that we're asking the business leaders in our states and throughout the country to add their voices to the growing chorus of corporations standing on the right side of history.

Joining me right now is the former Republican secretary of state of Kentucky, Trey Grayson, one of the bipartisan group signing on to this effort.

Thank you so much for being here. Really been looking forward to your perspective on this.

TREY GRAYSON (R), FORMER KENTUCKY SECRETARY OF STATE: Thanks.

BOLDUAN: First, let's start with just the news of the day which is the -- what the Republican state rep in Pennsylvania is admitting. What's your reaction to that?

GRAYSON: You know, it's disappointing that when you present it with evidence and you acknowledge the evidence but then you don't acknowledge the larger picture. This is something that's been very frustrating to me as a Republican, is President Trump lost fair and square and this big lie is only going to make things worse for the long run for the party and certainly for the country.

So, I wish he had seen the light and admitted as much. But I guess it's not a surprise as you noted.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. You know, one thing about it, when I say, you know, nearly 400 bills and 47 states, your eyes can glaze over at the kind of the minutia of what bill does to restrict voting access in each state. I'm looking around the country. When you look at states with the Republican legislatures and Republican governors pushing and signing the bills, that will restrict voter access, how do you describe what is really going on here?

GRAYSON: So I think the problem is when President Trump and his allies started this big lie to under undermine confidence and started before the election with bad mouthing vote by mail which is a procedure done in a lot of states for a long time and both parties have benefitted from it. But he laid the groundwork. Then when he lost he tried to undermine it.

And the challenge is there is a lot of Republicans. You see it in surveys. They didn't trust that outcome, who don't trust elections right now. Those legislators are in some respects.