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At This Hour

Internal Biden Administration Debate over Vaccine Sharing Grows More Tense; Supreme Court Hears Arguments in Landmark Free Speech Case; Juror Says, I Didn't See Any Remorse from Derek Chauvin. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 28, 2021 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WHITNEY WILD, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Buildings, kill cops, kill security guards, kill federal employees and kill agents. That was a post similar put on social media.

Another member of the Capitol security staff reached out to a colleague and said there is now chatter on Parler about storming the Capitol. Please let me know if there are any updates to credible threats. The information she received, there is no talk about any credible threats or storming the Capitol.

And Kate, what this shows is that this piece of information was pinging around the Capitol security staff and yet this was dismissed.

And the question for Senate investigators as they look through what happened and try to piece together these systemic failures is why intelligence officials seemed so reluctant not to believe the information which was right in front of them. We asked the investigators, people deeply involved in this report that will come out probably in coming weeks in a series of volumes why intelligence officials just seemed to not believe, again, what was right in front of them. And they told us, Kate, that they have not yet heard a good answer for that. Even after weeks and months of interviews and document research and questions, they still don't have a good answer.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN AT THIS HOUR: Yes, and that is a good question. So there was something like 850 D.C. Police officers defending the Capitol that day. One of the officers, Whitney, who suffered one of the most brutal attacks that we know of spoke to our colleague, Don Lemon, last night. What did he say?

WILD: He said that in that crush, in that riot, he thought it was a distinct possibility that he might lose his life. And he also spoke about how he feels when he hears people try to whitewash the violence of the day. But, Kate, no one can say it better than he can. Here is Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL FANONE, CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: It's been very difficult seeing elected officials and other individuals kind of whitewash the events of that day or downplay what happened. Some of the terminology that was used, like hugs and kisses, and very fine people, is like very different from what I experienced and what my co-workers experienced.

I experienced a group of individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish their goal. I experienced the most brutal, savage hand-to- hand combat of my entire life, let alone my policing career which spans almost two decades.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: Kate, it was a very compelling interview. We have ten minutes up on the cnn.com website. I would encourage everybody to watch it, because it is a very poignant reminder that at the very center, there were human beings who were willing and really thought they might have to give their life to save the Capitol, Kate.

BOLDUAN: perfectly put, Whitney, because Officer Fanone's words should really, at this moment, be the beginning and end of how people judge or how they even describe what played out that day, just like full stop. Words matter, very clearly. He knows that so brutally. Thank you so much.

Coming up for us, horrifying, that is how the CDC director describes the COVID crisis unfolding in India, just as we're also learning there is a debate going on inside the administration of how much of the U.S. vaccine supply should they share with countries like India.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:35:00]

BOLDUAN: While the U.S. appears to have turned a corner in its fight against the coronavirus, the CDC director today says she is cautiously optimistic. While that is happening, look overseas, and India is in the midst of a devastating surge. The country is in desperate need of medical supplies, protective equipment, oxygen and vaccines.

But CNN has learned that there is not consensus right now within the Biden team about how much the U.S. should help other countries in terms of its vaccine stockpile.

CNN's Kylie Atwood is joining me now. She has this fresh reporting. This is important, Kylie. What are you hearing about this debate within the Biden team?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, what I'm hearing is that the internal debate over whether and when to share excess doses of vaccines here in the U.S. with other countries is growing more and more intense. And that's because there are people, folks in the administration, folks at the State Department who think these vaccines should be shared with countries who are facing more dire circumstances due to this pandemic sooner rather than later. And you have folks at the White House who are on the health team, particularly the coronavirus task force team who think that we need to pay attention to the science here. The U.S. needs to make sure that all the folks, the whole situation in the United States is dealt with properly before sharing. Now, we know the Biden administration is headed in the direction of sharing. They said earlier this week they're preparing to share about 60 million doses of AstraZeneca with other countries soon. But what I am learning is that the folks who are frustrated about this sharing not happening yet have gone to outside groups, business groups and interest groups quietly advocating for them to publicly say that the administration should start sharing sooner rather than later, essentially putting some external pressure on the government to do so.

[11:40:09]

And this, of course, is happening as the Biden administration behind closed doors is really looking at all of these requests that are coming in from other countries. It is no surprise to anyone the countries around the world want access to these excess doses of vaccines that the United States has. And Secretary of State Tony Blinken said earlier this week that there will be a plan in the coming days for the vaccine sharing.

Now, I am told that that plan is probably going to focus on the situation in India, and in the coming weeks, we can expect them to divulge a fuller plan with regards to sharing with other countries.

But it's really interesting that this pressure is mounting so much that internally folks have gone to outside groups to try and advocate. That's something that some administration officials think is not productive. Others think it's necessary at this time. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Yes. Great reporting, Kylie, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Joining me right now for more is Dr. Craig Spencer, he's Director of Global Health and E.R. Medicine at Columbia University Medical Center.

Dr. Spencer, first, I want to get your reaction to what my colleague, Kylie, was just reporting about this debate within the Biden administration over whether -- how much and when to share some of the U.S. vaccine stockpile with countries like India and other countries. What do you think of that?

DR. CRAIG SPENCER, DIRECTOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH IN E.R. MEDICINE, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Well, the reality is, unfortunately, we're not going to be able to vaccinate India out of its surge. Vaccines are for preventing them. And so although we should and absolutely are sending supplies, oxygen, personal protective equipment and ventilators to India, we need to get these doses to other countries around India and around the world who globally, this last week, was the worst week of this pandemic to-date around world, 5.7 million cases.

So even as the pandemic ebbs here in the U.S. largely because we're stepping up vaccines, that's not the situation globally. And the U.S. can and I'm certain that this administration will do more to help get the rest of the world vaccinated.

BOLDUAN: And this juxtaposition is really important and something you and I have talked about quite a bit. You've got the CDC cautiously optimistic about the direction that the U.S. is headed compared to India, compared to other countries. You have often talked to me about how this is not a country-by-country problem. This is global problem which requires global solutions if we're going to really get out of this and put this to bed. So, should we be feeling optimism if other parts of the world are spiraling?

SPENCER: Recently, Dr. Tedros, the director general of the World Health Organization, compared what's happening to a house on fire. And if you have an inferno and fire in some place, you're hosing it down, but the inferno is raging somewhere else, while you're still all at risk of being caught in the flames.

Look, I think that's exactly what's happening now. The U.S. is doing well. We're vaccinating a big chunk of our population, but just 0.2 percent of all the vaccine doses in the world have gone to low-income countries who themselves are all vulnerable right now to similar COVID surges as what we're seeing in India.

The U.S. has purchase agreements for 1.2 billion doses of COVID vaccine. That's more than enough to vaccinate every Americans several times over. I know this administration is looking at options and I know this administration will do more to not only get more vaccines out, donate them to the World Health Organization-led COVAX facility, but also do more looking at how we can help increase domestic production of these vaccines in other places where capacity exists.

And I think the best way, the U.S. should support a trips waiver at the World Trade Organization. The U.S. holds a lot of say and sway over convincing the World Trade Organization to remove this patent protection on intellectual property that's preventing a lot of countries from creating their own diagnostics, therapeutics and vaccines that could help them domestically respond as opposed to relying on wealthy nations for vaccines and other things to end this pandemic.

BOLDUAN: So from the biggest and broadest to, I guess, maybe the most specific and small here in the United States, this latest change in updating mask guidelines that just came out from the CDC. If you're vaccinated, you don't need to wear a mask outside, you don't need a mask with small groups inside. Can you explain why the CDC, you think, is still recommending that vaccinated people need to wear masks at all in any setting?

SPENCER: That's a really good question. I know that by this point, we have from many studies and from real life experience shown that the vaccine helps prevent us from getting sick, from severe illness. We know that transmission of the vaccine is very significantly slowed if you're vaccinated. I still think that they're waiting for that critical last piece to make sure that once you're with many other people, the risk is so low. And also right now we know that in the U.S., even though the pandemic is ebbing here as we get more people vaccinated, we still have 50,000, 60,000 cases a day, which is still a lot of virus.

I think that there are three quick takeaways from this recent guidance.

[11:45:01]

One, that being vaccinated is the safest. You can do everything and feel a lot safer. So I urge everyone to get vaccinated. Two, I think it's really important to recognize that many people even though the CDC is saying that you can take your mask off outdoors may not feel comfortable yet. Here in New York City where we were pounded by COVID a year ago, I know many people feel safe and protected. And so even if the risk is slowing, people's risk mitigation, their ability to adapt is going to take a bit longer. And I think third and the most important is that these are individual guidelines. But we need to think about this as a community risk. It's not just what we can do to protect ourselves but what we can do to protect our communities. So wearing masks in places, especially if you're unvaccinated or waiting for a vaccine is critical to help prevent the spread of COVID.

BOLDUAN: It's always great to have you. Thank you, Dr. Spencer.

SPENCER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Coming up, a fight over free speech and Snapchat. The case that started with a high school cheerleader and is now a major fight over free speech before the Supreme Court.

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[11:50:00]

BOLDUAN: This morning, the Supreme Court is hearing oral arguments over a huge free speech case. It started with a high school cheerleader, and after not making the varsity team, she did what a lot of young kids do, took out their frustration on social media, putting out an angry post on Snapchat, middle finger and all. She was not on school property when she did it but she was suspended from the squad for it.

Now, the Supreme Court of United States is deciding whether the school had the right to do that.

Joining me right now is CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, the oral arguments this morning, what did you hear in them?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Kate. The arguments actually just ended moments ago. It sounds to me like the justices are leaning in favor of the student. The justices made clear students have some free speech rights in school. We have known that for 50 some years from the Supreme Court. And if anything, it sounds like the justices are saying, students should have more free speech rights outside of school.

At one point, Justice Sotomayor said, well, don't students, when they're out of school, the main thing they do talk about is how much they don't like school and their teachers and their classes. Do we want that all to be punishable? I thought that was an interesting look into the mindset of the justices.

BOLDUAN: What do you see as the outcome here? The impact of the outcome, I guess, is most important.

HONIG: Sure. So this impacts the free speech rights of millions of students and more of more of what students say is now happening off the physical campus. If you think back to when I was a student or maybe you were a student, Kate, most speech happen in school. If you wanted to say something, you would say it in school, or you put up a poster or flyer. Now, students are on social media, it's complicated further by COVID.

And I think the Supreme Court showed a recognition of that and that we need to adjust standards and allow students really more room to express themselves outside of school.

BOLDUAN: And with the Supreme Court, this gets at how much authority is you are pointing out do public school officials have over students when they are outside of school. But it's always important to consider with the Supreme Court justices how they could potentially kind of thread the needle, rule very narrowly. What do you think?

HONIG: Yes, I think that's exactly what they're looking to do here. At one point, Justice Gorsuch said, if we want to give you a very narrow ruling to the lawyer for the student, how do we do that? I think where they could come out here is to say, look, you don't have unlimited free speech rights outside of school. They are broad, but they gave hints that they would say where will draw the line is threats and specific harassment. But what this student was something, they seem to agree, was really more just venting frustration.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Good to see you, Elie, Thank you.

Coming up for us, for the first time, we are hearing from one of the jurors in the Derek Chauvin trial, what he says it was like to be in that courtroom every single day.

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[11:55:00]

BOLDUAN: We are now hearing for the first time from one of the jurors who convicted former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin of murder for the killing of George Floyd. CNN's Adrienne Broaddus joins me now with more on this.

Adrienne, you spoke with Brandon Mitchell. The whole world was waiting for his decision along with the other jurors. What did he tell you about that experience?

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was an experience that weighed heavy on Brandon, as well as the other jurors. He said every day was tense. He said it was extremely stressful and it took an emotional toll on him. He also mentioned he didn't think he and the other jurors would deliberate for as long as they did. He thought it would take about 20 or 30 minutes but he was wrong. I asked him to take me inside the courtroom and tell us about things that we could not see from the outside watching at home. One thing he pointed out was Derek Chauvin's demeanor. He said at the beginning of the trial, Derek Chauvin was confident, but as the prosecution began calling more expert witnesses, that confidence began to erode, according to Brandon Mitchell.

He's a 31-year-old and he's a basketball coach at a high school in Minneapolis, and he also hosts his own podcast. I asked him if there were any moments or any testimony that moved him to tears. Listen in to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON MITCHELL, DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL JUROR: So when George Floyd's brother was up on the stand and he was going over with how they grew up and they would play basketball, it reminded me of me and my brothers and it just 100 percent brought tears to my eyes, where I had to pull my mask up high enough to -- it caught my tears. I just didn't want -- I didn't want the media and everybody to see me in the back kind of crying because it literally reminded me of how I grew up with my brothers and how we would tag along, we would just do things together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROADDUS: So there was a connection there. He also told us when the jury went back to deliberate, they reviewed body cam footage from Derek Chauvin as well as the other officers involved. He said they also looked at some footage taken by bystanders, and they also reviewed the training documents from the Minneapolis Police Department.

Despite the guilty verdict, this decision, according to Mitchell, was not easy for him and other members of the jury, because he said at the end of the day, our decision will impact the life of someone else. And he said if he could speak with Derek Chauvin, he only has one question. He wants to know what was he thinking during those nine minutes and 29 seconds.

[12:00:00]

Kate?

BOLDUAN: And they did not know because he did not testify. Fascinating, an important conversation, Adrienne, thank very much for bringing that to us.

And thank you all so much.