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At This Hour

Facing Ouster, Rep. Liz Cheney Says GOP At a "Turning Point"; COVID Infections at 7-Month Low in U.S. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired May 06, 2021 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:01]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Well, they're lying. A lot of people are concerned about this. I did ask the Pentagon if they're considering shooting it down to break it up. Therefore, make it less likely that it survives the atmosphere. They say that is not an option they're considering right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: We won't look up.

David, thank you very much. Live for us in Shanghai.

Thanks to all of you for joining us today. We'll see you tomorrow morning. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

AT THIS HOUR with Kate Bolduan starts right now.

(MUSIC)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you so much for joining us.

AT THIS HOUR, America finds itself at a turning point in two significant ways.

We're at a turning point in the fight against COVID. A very promising turning point at that. COVID cases in the United States have hit the lowest level in more than seven months. Governors across the country are moving now to lift COVID-19 restrictions as that trend is not only a national one. It is being seen in so many, in most states.

The country is also at another turning point, and more uncertain one in American politics. That is what Congresswoman Liz Cheney says about the Republican Party and all current evidence shows she is not wrong. In a new opinion piece in "The Washington Post," Cheney who does appear to be days away from losing her leadership position in the House Republican conference, she says it's time for Republicans to choose once and for all between truth and the big lie.

She writes this in part: Trump is seeking to unravel critical elements of our constitutional structure that make democracy work. Confidence in the result of elections and the rule of law. No other American president has ever done this.

The Republican Party is at a turning point, she writes. And Republicans must decide whether we are going to choose truth and fidelity to the Constitution.

Two very different turning points for two very different reasons. But the same question does apply for both, I think. Are we at a turning point or are we already past it and everyone simply needs to open their eyes to that reality?

Let's start with the choice ahead for the Republican Party.

CNN's Manu Raju joined me now from Capitol Hill once again.

Manu, what are you hearing about the push to remove Liz Cheney in her leadership position in the House but also potentially out of congress altogether?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, the leadership position in the House is almost assured. She's expected to be gone as soon as this coming Wednesday. We'll will be replaced by Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, who was consolidated support for the most part within the House Republican Conference, including among the leadership and the like, and former President Donald Trump.

But Trump and his allies are now trying to push Cheney out of her seat altogether. The search is on in Wyoming to try to find a viable primary foe against her to deny her ability to win re-election. But they're having challenges. They're trying to find one single candidate who could emerge as the anti-Cheney candidate.

There are some interviews that are happening behind the scenes. Some allies at the Club for Growth, they're interviewing specific candidates. They put out a poll trying to show that Liz Cheney is vulnerable in a primary.

And there is an expectation that when Trump endorses a candidate, the other ones that jumped in, they may drop out. They may consolidate behind one choice. And the decision, the push to consolidate is even more important because Donald Trump Jr. and other Trump allies are trying to push a bill in the Wyoming legislature to create a runoff to essentially ensure one candidate can go against Liz Cheney. They failed in that effort.

So behind the scenes, they're trying to find someone else that can emerge. One candidate who is running right now, his name is Chuck Gray. He's a Wyoming state legislator.

He told me that Trump, quote, absolutely won the 2020 election. He also would not say whether the pro-Trump supporters were the ones in this building causing the damage, destruction that we saw on January 6th during the insurrection. He even blamed the violence that occurred from last summer.

That is in line with Donald Trump's big election lie that Liz Cheney has called out and the reason why she is on her way out of Republican leadership and potentially could be on the way out of her House seat unless she beats back these challenges.

So a lot of pressure right now on her, whether she can keep her seat and whether the Trump folks can try to make her political career and in the House, not just for this leadership position, but altogether -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Why would any American, any voter want their political leaders to lie so boldly and blatantly about something so basic yet so important?

We have to -- I -- let's talk about Elise Stefanik as you mentioned, Manu, likely to replace Cheney in her leadership role in the House in the short term. She just spoke to Steve Bannon this morning. What did she say?

RAJU: Yeah, she talked about her record. She defended being in her -- she said she is a conservative voice. She said that she's united different parts of the Republican Party.

Of course, she has become a big Trump supporter. Initially was a more ahead of a moderate record.

[11:05:02]

She's actually been criticized by outside groups like the Club for Growth, conservative outside groups. But nevertheless, she has defended Trump through the impeachment trial, particularly the first impeachment trial when she got on the former president's radar. And she's also raised questions about the electoral results from 2020 much the way Donald Trump has and much different from Liz Cheney who has warned that doing so could be a danger to democracy.

But when speaking to Steve Bannon just last hour, she made clear she had concerns with the way the election is conducted and supported a Republican led effort in Arizona to raise questions about the outcome.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): I fully support the audit in Arizona. We want transparency and answers for the American people. What are the Democrats so afraid of? The voters in it Arizona and the state Senate in Arizona pursued this audit. I fully support it. Transparency is a good thing. We need to fix these election security issues going into the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So far different rhetoric than what we heard from hearing from Liz Cheney who is warning about such rhetoric, warning how much it could be a danger to democracy, saying we should accept the legitimate results of the election here.

But Elise Stefanik has sided overwhelmingly with Trump on this issue, even voting to overturn the Pennsylvania electoral results after the riot -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Manu, thank you so much.

Joining me now for more on this is Matthew Dowd, former chief strategist for President George W. Bush.

Matthew, I just -- help me understand this. Cheney is not backing down, and that should come as no surprise to anyone who's known her and you do. She says the party is at a turning point. But do you think the party is already past that point? Like past chosen?

MATTHEW DOWD, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE .W. BUSH: It's way past the turning point. The I mean, I think Donald Trump even his election in 2016 and what transpired is more a reflection of where the Republican Party has been and is than it is some sort of change today in this. And to me, the dividing line in America today has nothing to do with left or right as this is showing, or Republican or Democrat.

The real diving line in America is we have on one side people that believe in a common set of facts, the common good and democracy and that truth matters. On the other side is the exact opposite of that. And that's what the greatest dividing line is. And this is a reflection of that.

BOLDUAN: And perfectly encapsulating that seems to be Liz Cheney and Elise Stefanik?

DOWD: Yeah, I mean, that's what -- I mean, each represent both of those sides. And I know Liz very well. She worked on the campaign in 2000.

I got to know her. She -- I disagree with her on some issues. But she's a principled conservative that believes in integrity and believes in democracy and believes in the Constitution.

And Elise Stefanik, who was elected in one way at the beginning has become the exact opposite of what Liz Cheney is in this. So to me, it's a perfect reflection.

You know, they say that power and money reveals people for who they are. I think this time in Donald Trump has revealed people for who they are. Who Liz Cheney is and who Elise Stefanik is.

But I think one thing Liz Cheney is going have to ask herself throughout this is does she belong to a party that no longer represents what she stands for? And that's -- I mean, the party actually is picking who they want. And it seems to be going just towards somebody like at Elise. But Liz Cheney has to ask herself is, the party that she thought she was part of, it no longer exists.

BOLDUAN: This actually -- one thing I have been wondering and wanted to ask you about because it feels like a real inflection point in this moment in American politics. Are Republicans like Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, Adam Kinzinger and many others who are standing up and standing for truth and standing up against the lies that are being spouted, are they in denial that there is still a place for them in the Republican Party? That big tent is big enough? DOWD: Yeah. They're in complete denial. They are unicorns. They are

unicorns.

They stand out. They don't represent what the party is. They obviously are in agreement with Donald Trump. But more importantly, they're not in line with the Republican base of the country.

Elise Stefanik and Marjorie Taylor Greene and the crazy woman from Colorado are all much more in line with where the Republican base is. It seems to me that --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: But where should -- but what should Liz say, right? Like, where should Liz go? Where should Mitt go? What do you do when you're a unicorn? I've never been one.

DOWD: To me, their choice -- they have two choices today. The Republican Party does not fit them and does not believe in integrity today and does not believe in democracy.

[11:10:01]

Their choice is either do a coalition with the Democrats as some conservative part of the Democratic Party or become independents.

That's the only choice they have today in America. They do not fit the party. And they do not fit where the leadership is. They do not fit where the base is.

This is not the party they thought it was. It is not the party of Bush, not the party of Reagan. It's not the party of any past Republicans. It is a party that does not believe in truth.

BOLDUAN: But here's another layer of this, Matthew, Club for Growth, the influential conservative group. It has actually come out against Elise Stefanik, saying she is not actually conservative. They even say that she is liberal, because of her voting record, what she stood for pre -- let's just say -- January 6th.

But I guess that is just further proof to Cheney's point and your point that this isn't about conservatism at all. This is about Donald Trump.

DOWD: No, the term conservative doesn't really even -- it means nothing today. It is Trump is not a conservative. And most Republicans in Congress are not conservative.

They don't believe in conservative principles. They don't believe in telling the truth. They don't believe in old fashioned values of integrity. They don't believe in any of that.

And so, that's where we are today. They're going -- they're about to choose somebody who is less conservative and less principled and willing to lie to the American public over somebody that is a principled conservative that desires to tell the truth to the American public. No matter the cost to her politically. That's the choice they're making and it's unfolding as we watch and to me, Kate, the biggest problem --

BOLDUAN: How do you make sense of that? Matthew, how do you make sense of that? Go ahead.

DOWN: Well, you -- this has been a rising problem and sort of anti- science, anti-facts part of the Republican Party which is now the mainstream of the Republican Party today. That's who they are today. It's people are willing to lie and to not tell the truth and to actually go against the democracy.

But fundamentally, this to me is the most fundamental problem in America today. An attack on democracy and destroying of a democracy that won't even allow us to get to the big issues like the pandemic, like climate change, like gun violence, all the other big issues pale in comparison to this moment of an attack on democracy.

BOLDUAN: Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it.

DOWD: Thanks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right. Coming up for us still, the U.S. hits a new record of new COVID-19 infections and this time it is a very good record. It is for a very good reason.

Debris from -- also this, debris from a Chinese rocket is spiraling towards the United States -- well, and the Earth. Scientists are trying to figure out where in the world this it going to land. Retired astronaut Scott Kelly is our guest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:17:06]

BOLDUAN: AT THIS HOUR, we're looking at a very big number that could be very good news in the fight against COVID here in the United States. Seven months, that's how long it's been that long since COVID- 19 infections are this low. Yes, great news.

But there's also warning signs to keep an eye on. The number of shots in arms per day is starting to slow down, just over 2 million each day over the last seven days.

So, again, we're at another turning point. Will country keep going in the right direction?

Joining me right now is Dr. Paul Offit. He's a member, of course, of the FDA advisory committee and director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

BOLDUAN: Dr. Offit, let's start with this new phase that we're in. Lots of people describing this as having turned a corner. How would you describe it?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: I agree. I think there's three things working against this virus right now.

One is the weather. It's basically a winter respiratory virus. It doesn't spread quite as well in the summers and springs. Winters, we saw last winter and summer.

Two is vaccinations. I mean, we now have a reasonable percentage, approaching 40 percent of the population now that is fully immunized with the vaccine.

And three is natural infection. Natural infection also protects. And we have probably about 100 million people in the U.S. that have been naturally infected. So, we're getting there. We need to get to about 80 percent population.

I'd say, immunize at least another 80 million to 100 million people and then when next winter comes, it will just be a bump instead of a surge. We can do that.

BOLDUAN: I love the idea of thinking of it as a bump.

Let's talk about the next step for vaccines. Authorization for 12 to 15-year-olds, that is expected to be coming in days. There is a new survey out about whether parents of kids of this age are going to get their kids vaccinated.

Three in ten said yes right away, 26 percent say they will wait to see how it's working. Eighteen percent said only if the kid's school requires it. And 23 percent said they definitely will not be getting kids vaccinated.

As a pediatrician, what do you say when folks -- when parents come in and say there isn't enough data. They think there is not enough data on this vaccine? How do you give them comfortable giving the shot to their kids?

OFFIT: Well, the question is when you know everything, you'll never know anything. The question is, when do you know enough?

So, here's what you know: when you know that a trial was done of 2,200 children, between 12 and 15 years of age, who either got a vaccine or got a placebo. There are 18 cases of disease, COVID, in that trial. All of which were in the placebo group.

I mean, unfortunately, 18 children had to suffer infection or disease because they didn't get a vaccine. But for the flip of a coin, I'm sure the parents who are in the vaccine group, who had children in the vaccine, were happy that they were in the vaccine group.

So, now, parents have a choice of whether that they want to be in the Placebo group, which is to say, don't get a vaccine, or being the vaccine group?

I think it's -- this is an easy choice for my children between 12 and 15 years of age, I will give them the vaccine.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, an easy choice with the data that we have. [11:20:01]

And we're about -- we're in just a -- in the next several -- in a little bit, we'll run a piece, a new story about vaccine hesitancy among adult women. Some of the misinformation that they're hearing is about vaccines impact fertility. I also had women ask me that same question about the vaccine and their daughters.

Are you hearing that? Can you speak to this? Because this fits into the category of there isn't enough evidence to disprove it so it lives on.

OFFIT: It's probably the most frequent I get asked. It was born of the false notion that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, which is the protein to which make antibodies against with this vaccine, mimics a protein on the surface of placenta cells called Sensation 1.

So if you were thinking about an antibody response to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, you also would be inadvertently making antibody response to your own placenta and decreasing fertility. They're not similar at all. It's like you saying you and I have the same Social Security number because they both contain the number 5. So, that was already wrong.

Second, if you look at the studies that were done, the Pfizer and Moderna studies, there were 18 pregnancies in that study. Remember, those were placebo-controlled studies. You either got vaccine or placebo.

So if it's true that this vaccine affected fertility, all of those pregnancies, all of those 36 pregnancies should have been in the placebo group, but they weren't. They were divided among the vaccine and placebo group, which is to say that the vaccine didn't enhance fertility or didn't lessen fertility.

Also if, you're making an antibody response against SARS-CoV-2 spike protein lessens fertility, then what happened over last year? A hundred million people have been affected by this virus. What's happened to the birthrate between 2019 and 2020? If it affects fertility, the berth birthrate would have gone down, which also wasn't true, the birthdate went up.

So, it's completely wrong, and it's a shame. I think people are making a chance not to get the vaccine with result to their children.

BOLDUAN: And so, adult women, let's say, you know, my age, in their 30s, is it conceivably so different for my daughter who is, you know, a child?

OFFIT: No. I mean, what --

BOLDUAN: Yeah, I just want to put a fine point on it, just as you're making.

OFFIT: Right. So one thing the studies say the 12 to 15-year-olds. There is not really a huge biological difference between that and the 16 to 17-year-old which were also, which are now the Pfizer vaccine is already approved. So, no, that's why the dose was the same, which is 30 micro grams per dose. The dosing integral was the same, which is three weeks, because there is that similarity.

So, no, it's not -- it's not in any safe (INAUDIBLE), I mean, if people feel more comfortable instead of being 2,200 person study, it was a 22,000 person study that, meant instead of 180 children -- I mean, 18 children suffering this disease, it would have been 180 children who suffered this disease.

I mean, I think we have enough information now to prevent children from having to suffer this infection if they're over 12 years of age.

BOLDUAN: Doctor, thank you so much for coming on.

OFFIT: My pleasure.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, Texas lawmakers who are about to vote on the next law restricting access. Now, big businesses are stepping up and speaking out. One of the major names signing on to this effort will be here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:28:07]

BOLDUAN: This morning, Florida became the latest Republican led state to make official new laws that make it harder to vote. Not easier. Governor Ron DeSantis signed into law a bill that will curb access to mail in voting across the state.

And speaking of access, DeSantis didn't even let the press in for his signing ceremony. You see this. He offered it as a Fox News exclusive. No joke.

This also comes as Texas is on the verge of passing voting bills. Today, the Texas House will consider a bill that would give more authority to poll watchers, make it a felony for election officials to send unsolicited early mail in ballot applications and impose tougher rules for voters when casting a ballot.

This week, dozens of major companies are speaking out against what's happening in Texas and penning an open letter opposing any effort to restrict voter access.

Joining me right now is one of the big names on this letter, REI. Ben Steele is the executive vice president and chief customer officer for REI.

Thank you for being here.

Why did REI want to be part of this? What is the conversation like among your team?

BEN STEELE, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, REI: You know, thanks so much for having me this morning, Kate. You know, for us, voting is a fundamental right. We're an 83-year-old

co-op. And in a coop, every member has a vote. And as a co-op, the founding principle is we're better as a community when we come together. We can do more when we come together.

So when we see any threat to the rights of the folks in that community as we're seeing in more and more places right now, we take that really seriously. We believe it's our responsibility to raise our voice in concern.

BOLDUAN: The letter that was signed by your co-op and many companies doesn't specifically oppose any specific measure currently being debated in if Texas. And Texas lawmakers pushing these bills are already trying to argue these bills don't restrict voter access. They talk about election integrity.

Why didn't you all go further?

STEELE: Well, we want to be clear that we oppose changes that restrict eligible voters access to the ballot. I think, you know, the democratic process can always be improved. But we're concerned about is when eligible voters.